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#511825 - 11/29/07 07:47 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: bowhunter163]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64856
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Wes, Winchester and Deerchaser007,

Great posts.
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#511832 - 11/29/07 07:54 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: bowhunter163]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64856
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes

[b]Ironically, even though some hunters have a little trouble adapting, most QDM programs produce a higher hunter success rate, on both does and older bucks than non-QDM programs --- meaning that the average hunter in a given group has greater overall hunting success.


I couldn't agree more. During our Traditional Management days, for those hunters puting in more than 30 hours of treestand time, hunter success--percent of hunters that killed a deer each year--used to average around 36%. That's because we weren't shooting does. Now hunter success for those same hunters runs at 100%. The percent of hunters that saw a 2 1/2+ year-old buck during the Traditional years averaged around 30%. Now it averages around 80%. Hunter harvest of 2 1/2+ year-old bucks used to average around 7%. Now it averages around 60%.

But as you pointed out Wes, there are trade-offs. We don't kill antlered bucks as frequently as we used to under Traditional Management. In essence, we have to hunt longer and harder to kill a buck.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527981 - 12/13/07 08:39 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: ]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4078
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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What kind of restictions do you have for taking your bucks?
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" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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#528024 - 12/13/07 09:18 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
Quailman
8 Point


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1414
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Our restrictions are based on age. We manage for 3 1/2 year old bucks, but it will have to be a very good 3 1/2 year old (antler wise) to be shot.
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#528152 - 12/13/07 11:25 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4078
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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MoCamo,
What restrictions do you have for taking a buck.
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" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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#528221 - 12/14/07 06:10 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64856
Loc: Nashville, TN

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chaneylake,

Isn't it strange that the "older hunters" (not old in age, but old in having been hunting the longest) are often the problem with a QDM program than the "new" hunters? The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528237 - 12/14/07 06:24 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19050
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.

This is one reason I believe it's better for juvenile hunters to play by the same rules as adults on a lease or hunting club (other than I like the juveniles having the special bonus gun-hunting weekend that precedes the adult's).

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#528250 - 12/14/07 06:57 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Wes Parrish]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.

This is one reason I believe it's better for juvenile hunters to play by the same rules as adults on a lease or hunting club (other than I like the juveniles having the special bonus gun-hunting weekend that precedes the adult's).


I believe it's because their young minds have not been ingrained with old traditions yet as in "you can't shoot does or men don't shoot does". I use to think I had rather teach shooting and gun safety to a woman than a man. It's because a woman will listen and the man already "knows it all". I found out later though that if I was teaching a man that had never been around firearms that he would listen just as well as the woman. No preconceived notions.

Once last year and once so far this year, I have caught poachers that had juveniles with them. While talking (chewing them out) with them, I made sure I preached about why what they were doing was wrong for the edification of the children. Then I preached about how they were setting a bad example. I don't know if it helped with how the kids turn out but I like to think so.
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#528280 - 12/14/07 07:28 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64856
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: TAS
 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.

This is one reason I believe it's better for juvenile hunters to play by the same rules as adults on a lease or hunting club (other than I like the juveniles having the special bonus gun-hunting weekend that precedes the adult's).


I believe it's because their young minds have not been ingrained with old traditions yet as in "you can't shoot does or men don't shoot does".


Exactly. Although many strongly disagree with me, I believe young/new hunters should be taught to hunt from day one with "good management" as the basis of harvest practices. If the area they are learning to hunt on needs young bucks protected, then that is how young hunters should learn to hunt--by protecting young bucks.

When my brother-in-law and I started teaching his daughters to deer hunt, we were still in the phase of strongly requiring young buck protection (low deer density, hence even the harvest of one yearling buck made a difference). His daughters had grown up around deer camp and had heard all the management talk. I was fairly surprised that those girls had no interesting in shooting young bucks. To them, having heard proper biological management strategies discussed all their lives, they looked at a young buck as an animal that needed protection. They would no more have shot a young buck than a newborn fawn.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528793 - 12/14/07 02:58 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
WRF
Spike


Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 97
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Biologically,My best advice is to start running as many trail-cameras as you can afford. .


Right on. If I went just on sightings this year, I would swear that we have no good bucks on our farm. I have only seen one, for me, shooter buck since the first bow season opened. That being said, I have pictures of some great bucks from my trail cameras. Cameras do not lie. That being said, you definitely will not get pictures of all the bucks (especially those non-resident bucks). For instance, I believe BSK only had one picture back in the summer of the outstanding buck that he shot this fall. If you do not want to share pictures of any nice bucks that you take pics of, well do your best to harvest one of those bucks. A nice buck in hand is a nice way to show the success of your plan. Granted that is easier said than done. I am still trying. Apparently, I am much better in taking pictures of nice bucks than shooting them.

But I hear you. We have some grumbling too, and we are probably on a same timeline as you. Of course that one who complains the most also has shot young bucks the last two years. If it meets his criteria and club rules and he is happy with it, kudos for him and I am pleased for him, but do not grip about lack of good buck sightings.

Kind of went off on a tangent there. Do as BSK suggested. By some cams. If money is a factor, go the homebrew route. It will save you money and some people like me prefer them.

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