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#510633 - 11/28/07 09:21 AM QDM?? for BSK or anyone.
MoCamo
Spike


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Tn

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We have been on a program for three years now.Our buck harvest has been low since we started.I expected the harvest to go down but some of our members seem to be getting discuraged.I keep telling them to be patient that it takes time.How long does it nomally take before you really start seeing a differnce? Im thinking 5 yrs but thats just a guess.Our lease is about 2000 acres.
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#510649 - 11/28/07 09:26 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Biologically, it doesn't take long at all to see improvements in buck age structure. However, hunter harvest is a completely different animal. My best advice is to start running as many trail-cameras as you can afford. Often, what hunters see and what is really out there are two completely different things. Nothing encourages discouraged hunters like seeing pictures of older bucks using the property.
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#510762 - 11/28/07 10:51 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
MoCamo
Spike


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Tn

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I am satisfied we the why things are going.Ive seen lots of bucks the last 3 years and have not pulled the trigger on the first one.I seen three last year that if could have got shot i would have taken it.To much cover and chasing does makes getting a shot difficult.I am not a great hunter but i do put in alot of time in the woods and just seeing bucks regardless of there size still gets me going.Back in my rattle snake days if had horns of any size he was in serious trouble but since we started practicing QDM i have learned to be more patient and i have learned more about deer and there habits.I may never kill a monster buck but im still happy. Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program? Also i havent shown them any pictures but i did show them a shed i found last spring very nice 4 1/2 bases 20" main beam G1 5 1/2" G2 11 1/2" G3 6 1/4" circumference between G1 and G2 is 4" circumference between G2 and G3 3 1/2" and all they want to know is where i found it.
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#510771 - 11/28/07 10:58 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
Football Hunter
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Registered: 10/22/07
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hold your ground big ones will show up,just alter hunting strategies some.I dont know if you have food plots,but many people are guilty of sitting over them all the time and you may never see a big buck that way.
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#510863 - 11/28/07 12:18 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: MoCamo
Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program?


Oh YES!

I have never seen a biological QDM failure, but I sure have seen numerous hunter harvest failures, in that they were growing older bucks but couldn't kill them.

Too many hunters belive that they will see and kill whatever is out there. Nothing could be further from the truth. With every year older, bucks get harder to see and kill. Hunters will only see small percentage of the old bucks that exist. Those bucks have learned to be very hunterwise.

In addition, hunters fail to realize that they will seriously have to upgrade their skills once they start setting age limits on the bucks they will kill. Hunting the same type of stand set-ups that regularly got them yearling bucks is not going to cut it for killing older bucks. To be a successful on older bucks, hunters will have to hunt specifically for older bucks. Those stand set-ups often are very, very different than normal stand set-ups and may produce very few deer sightings.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#510950 - 11/28/07 01:33 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19007
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: MoCamo
Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program?


Oh YES!

And YES, YES, YES!!!

 Originally Posted By: BSK
I have never seen a biological QDM failure, but I sure have seen numerous hunter harvest failures, in that they were growing older bucks but couldn't kill them.

Many of the formally best doe and young buck killers have the lowest success rate on older bucks. After 2 or 3 years of their killing no older bucks, some will have their egos bruised, and some will even become highly resentful of the lucky novice and the more successful older buck hunters.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
In addition, hunters fail to realize that they will seriously have to upgrade their skills once they start setting age limits on the bucks they will kill. Hunting the same type of stand set-ups that regularly got them yearling bucks is not going to cut it for killing older bucks.

And many hunters are simply unwilling to do what it takes, then start claiming the QDM program is unsuccessful, that they're tired of passing up all the yearling bucks only for other hunters across the property line to kill them, etc. etc.

But it's amazing how some of even these disenchanted hunters can quickly re-embrace the concepts of QDM if they happen to luck into an older buck or maybe just see one in a picture near where they're hunting.

There is also an ugly side to QDM that is really no fault of QDM, but in fact a character flaw of some hunters. Once some large-antlered older bucks are known to exist, the selfishness and greed of some individual hunters will show it's ugly face. Some of these particular hunters develop the attitude that a particular buck is "his" or a particular hunting area is "his", giving no credit to all his fellow hunters for helping to produce that deer, and only begrudging the individual successes of his fellow hunters. These are the hunters you need to eliminate from your club or hunting group at the earliest opportunity.

Ironically, even though some hunters have a little trouble adapting, most QDM programs produce a higher hunter success rate, on both does and older bucks than non-QDM programs --- meaning that the average hunter in a given group has greater overall hunting success. In exchange for a higher older buck harvest, the trade-off is fewer overall doe sightings and a greatly reduced or eliminated yearling buck harvest. But it seems a fair trade to most who understand it, especially once you learn to hunt for older bucks and start seeing them about as regularly as you once saw yearling bucks.

And when hunting older bucks, "how" you hunt can be more important than "where" you hunt on a given QDM property. One of the biggest mistakes I see being made by novice QDM hunters is their going into an area the day before they hunt to hang a stand, as well as overhunting a very specific spot, not realizing they're shifting deer movement just enough not to see the deer, particularly the older deer (both does and bucks). Of course, often when you try to tell them it's only some small things they need to do differently, they'll argue with success and keep doing it wrong anyway.


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#510955 - 11/28/07 01:38 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Wes Parrish]
Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27457
Loc: TN

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Having mature bucks, and being able to consistently kill them, is two totally different things that many just dont understand!
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#511158 - 11/28/07 05:25 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Winchester]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4256
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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The most important thing to remember is QDM is not going to produce MONSTERS around every tree. The others have touched on lack of hunting skills for mature bucks,.. i will tell you to not set your goal of monsters everywere. The most important thing you and the others can do , is learn to age bucks by body characteristics and not horns on the head. Keep your buck harvest at QDM guidelines ,. zero 1.5 year olds,.. anything older is fair game. Don't try to use QDM to produce a bunch of 4.5 and older deer, you and the others will be disapointed. PLUS,.. setting that high of goal in a 3 year time frame is crazy. You must keep the goal realistic for hunting reasons,.. but as stated,.. learn to age on the hoof and not by horns. You may be letting a buck that is 4.5 years old walk cause he only sports a 100 inch set of horns. You can't do that in QDM.

On a second note,.. keep buck harvest of 2.5 year olds to minumum if you wish to increase the age structure on the property. Depending on how many members,. you may have to go to a 1, 2.5 year old buck limit to insure bucks are making it into the next age class. This comes from hunting and camera observations. Which is a must in a QDM area.

There is alot to a successful QDM plan,.. and unless you work at it year round and have LOTS of money ,.. it takes longer than 3 years to produce results to the point you say ,. YEP,. its working. Between habitat work, food plot work, camera data, harvest data, herd observations from hunting from each member, etc ,.. it can be a headache. BUT,.. to be succesful,. it takes more than shooting a few does and passing all the bucks. You will not see the results you are searching for like this.

Hope this is not your situation,. but it needed to be addressed if it is.
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#511257 - 11/28/07 06:25 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Wes Parrish]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10522
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
[quote=BSK][quote=MoCamo]


And when hunting older bucks, "how" you hunt can be more important than "where" you hunt on a given QDM property. One of the biggest mistakes I see being made by novice QDM hunters is their going into an area the day before they hunt to hang a stand, as well as overhunting a very specific spot, not realizing they're shifting deer movement just enough not to see the deer, particularly the older deer (both does and bucks). Of course, often when you try to tell them it's only some small things they need to do differently, they'll argue with success and keep doing it wrong anyway.



Amen to that. I have started moving my stands 50-100yds after 2 hunts and have started seeing mature deer. Thing is, I only see them one time per season from a given stand. No matter how good the spot is, if you hunt it, the big guys will figure you out and avoid the stand. I have adapted my hunting strategy and see 1-2 mature bucks a year, Getting in position to kill one is another situation entirely.


Wes,
What is your opinion regarding lock ons? Say you scout/still hunt and find a great area. You ease out and then come back a week or 2 later and hang a lock on. Have you likely blown out the area for that season? Or do you still have a shot at an old dude if you avoid the area for a couple weeks?
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#511672 - 11/28/07 11:55 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
bowhunter163
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2393
Loc: knoxville,tn

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 Originally Posted By: MoCamo
I am satisfied we the why things are going.Ive seen lots of bucks the last 3 years and have not pulled the trigger on the first one.I seen three last year that if could have got shot i would have taken it.To much cover and chasing does makes getting a shot difficult.I am not a great hunter but i do put in alot of time in the woods and just seeing bucks regardless of there size still gets me going.Back in my rattle snake days if had horns of any size he was in serious trouble but since we started practicing QDM i have learned to be more patient and i have learned more about deer and there habits.I may never kill a monster buck but im still happy. Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program? Also i havent shown them any pictures but i did show them a shed i found last spring very nice 4 1/2 bases 20" main beam G1 5 1/2" G2 11 1/2" G3 6 1/4" circumference between G1 and G2 is 4" circumference between G2 and G3 3 1/2" and all they want to know is where i found it.
if they do not want the same results as the rest of the club doesnt sound like they should be on the lease . lol JMO .so now that you have a spot open lol.haha
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#511825 - 11/29/07 07:47 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: bowhunter163]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64800
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Wes, Winchester and Deerchaser007,

Great posts.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#511832 - 11/29/07 07:54 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: bowhunter163]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Wes

[b]Ironically, even though some hunters have a little trouble adapting, most QDM programs produce a higher hunter success rate, on both does and older bucks than non-QDM programs --- meaning that the average hunter in a given group has greater overall hunting success.


I couldn't agree more. During our Traditional Management days, for those hunters puting in more than 30 hours of treestand time, hunter success--percent of hunters that killed a deer each year--used to average around 36%. That's because we weren't shooting does. Now hunter success for those same hunters runs at 100%. The percent of hunters that saw a 2 1/2+ year-old buck during the Traditional years averaged around 30%. Now it averages around 80%. Hunter harvest of 2 1/2+ year-old bucks used to average around 7%. Now it averages around 60%.

But as you pointed out Wes, there are trade-offs. We don't kill antlered bucks as frequently as we used to under Traditional Management. In essence, we have to hunt longer and harder to kill a buck.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527981 - 12/13/07 08:39 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: ]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4078
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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What kind of restictions do you have for taking your bucks?
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#528024 - 12/13/07 09:18 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
Quailman
8 Point


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1414
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Our restrictions are based on age. We manage for 3 1/2 year old bucks, but it will have to be a very good 3 1/2 year old (antler wise) to be shot.
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#528152 - 12/13/07 11:25 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4078
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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MoCamo,
What restrictions do you have for taking a buck.
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" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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#528221 - 12/14/07 06:10 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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chaneylake,

Isn't it strange that the "older hunters" (not old in age, but old in having been hunting the longest) are often the problem with a QDM program than the "new" hunters? The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528237 - 12/14/07 06:24 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19007
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.

This is one reason I believe it's better for juvenile hunters to play by the same rules as adults on a lease or hunting club (other than I like the juveniles having the special bonus gun-hunting weekend that precedes the adult's).

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#528250 - 12/14/07 06:57 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Wes Parrish]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.

This is one reason I believe it's better for juvenile hunters to play by the same rules as adults on a lease or hunting club (other than I like the juveniles having the special bonus gun-hunting weekend that precedes the adult's).


I believe it's because their young minds have not been ingrained with old traditions yet as in "you can't shoot does or men don't shoot does". I use to think I had rather teach shooting and gun safety to a woman than a man. It's because a woman will listen and the man already "knows it all". I found out later though that if I was teaching a man that had never been around firearms that he would listen just as well as the woman. No preconceived notions.

Once last year and once so far this year, I have caught poachers that had juveniles with them. While talking (chewing them out) with them, I made sure I preached about why what they were doing was wrong for the edification of the children. Then I preached about how they were setting a bad example. I don't know if it helped with how the kids turn out but I like to think so.
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#528280 - 12/14/07 07:28 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: TAS
 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
The new hunters accept whatever the rules are, but the older hunters can't get past the past.

This is one reason I believe it's better for juvenile hunters to play by the same rules as adults on a lease or hunting club (other than I like the juveniles having the special bonus gun-hunting weekend that precedes the adult's).


I believe it's because their young minds have not been ingrained with old traditions yet as in "you can't shoot does or men don't shoot does".


Exactly. Although many strongly disagree with me, I believe young/new hunters should be taught to hunt from day one with "good management" as the basis of harvest practices. If the area they are learning to hunt on needs young bucks protected, then that is how young hunters should learn to hunt--by protecting young bucks.

When my brother-in-law and I started teaching his daughters to deer hunt, we were still in the phase of strongly requiring young buck protection (low deer density, hence even the harvest of one yearling buck made a difference). His daughters had grown up around deer camp and had heard all the management talk. I was fairly surprised that those girls had no interesting in shooting young bucks. To them, having heard proper biological management strategies discussed all their lives, they looked at a young buck as an animal that needed protection. They would no more have shot a young buck than a newborn fawn.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528793 - 12/14/07 02:58 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
WRF
Spike


Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 97
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Biologically,My best advice is to start running as many trail-cameras as you can afford. .


Right on. If I went just on sightings this year, I would swear that we have no good bucks on our farm. I have only seen one, for me, shooter buck since the first bow season opened. That being said, I have pictures of some great bucks from my trail cameras. Cameras do not lie. That being said, you definitely will not get pictures of all the bucks (especially those non-resident bucks). For instance, I believe BSK only had one picture back in the summer of the outstanding buck that he shot this fall. If you do not want to share pictures of any nice bucks that you take pics of, well do your best to harvest one of those bucks. A nice buck in hand is a nice way to show the success of your plan. Granted that is easier said than done. I am still trying. Apparently, I am much better in taking pictures of nice bucks than shooting them.

But I hear you. We have some grumbling too, and we are probably on a same timeline as you. Of course that one who complains the most also has shot young bucks the last two years. If it meets his criteria and club rules and he is happy with it, kudos for him and I am pleased for him, but do not grip about lack of good buck sightings.

Kind of went off on a tangent there. Do as BSK suggested. By some cams. If money is a factor, go the homebrew route. It will save you money and some people like me prefer them.

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#529346 - 12/15/07 05:27 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: WRF]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
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The results vary depending on the size of the tract the club has under QDM , habitat ,type of buck restrictions , and what the neighbors are shooting .
Clubs might have a solid QDM program , but if they don't have the cover or sanctuaries to hold the deer on the property , and the surrounding neighbors shoot every buck , then they might not see immediate results of their efforts .
I believe prime habitat , and areas of low hunting pressure are the key . I have seen prime habitat hold good numbers of mature bucks , even without buck restrictions , because they had the security cover available to escape the hunting pressure .
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#529362 - 12/15/07 06:37 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Radar]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Good post Radar. I agree. The success of QDM on small lands is a factor of many variables. And in small-land programs, habitat management is a VERY powerful player.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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