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#497970 - 11/18/07 07:16 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: kholmes
fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.


Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".


Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.



Sorry, There have been studies done that show you are wrong, unless you are referring to the Key deer.

Fishboy you are wrong there was actually talk of sub classifying some of the FL deer because they are so much different then the rest of the whitetails in the SE. The cover is dense and food is short so they are smaller bodied and smaller racked.

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#498024 - 11/18/07 07:45 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4257
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Actually he is correct,.. i just looked it up. DNA testing is proving that the 37 different subspecies of whitetail are from the original 1 species. The differences are in the deer becoming locally adapted to its habitat and surroundings. Causing the differences in appearance and size. Very interesting read......

My apology fishboy,. didn't know anything about that DNA testing info.
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#498040 - 11/18/07 07:54 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
tnclayboy
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Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 2987
Loc: Arlington tn

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It used to bother me that the ones I pass would get clobbered later .But I grew up and got over it . Its part of hunting QDM or not. I just figure I will have to hunt a little harder.
I talked with the old man that hunts the other side of the property today and he said he aint seen a deer in severall hunts and I have seen and passed on 8 to 10 deer several times this year . He don't see any deer because shoots the first one he sees every time he hunts . so naturally he dosn't see as many deer that I do. But he kills twice as many.It used to bother me but It doesn't bother me in least anymore. He just hunts the way he wants and I leave him alone .He is a great management tool LOL
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#498059 - 11/18/07 08:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5284
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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Bergmanns Rule, Animals tend to be larger as you travel farther from the equator. when the animals become larger or when body mass increases, porportionally the surface area decreases which results in less loss of body heat. this rule is vitally important to deer subspecies living in both warm tropical flats of Florida or cold regions.

subspecies found in FL mcilhennyi, osceloa and seminolus however thes subspecies are also found in Alabama, LA, Mississippi and parts of Texas. So lostsoul tech you are correct that the deer in FL are not the same as TN but you are incorrect in saying they are not the same as the rest of the SE. Just sayin......

alot of the deer size in FL is do to habitat and soil nutrience as well as Bergmanns Rule. There is no real reason for an animal living in that climate to grow a large body. Yet those same subspecies are being killed in Alabama with a MUCH larger body size and antler size.

not trying to start nothing just keeping the facts straight as they are right now.
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#498065 - 11/18/07 08:07 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5284
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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talking about doe harvesting where we hunt in alabama the state comes in each year and tells us how many we need to shoot off the property approx 1400 acres. Last year we were told to shot 75 does, tough part is only 4 of us hunt it. I ended up having to bring a few friends and killed 17 in 2 days. yet we still came no where close to reaching that 75. Man what would i do with 75 DEER!!!
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#498511 - 11/19/07 06:01 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
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Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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I think the first problem is when we start catagorizing other hunters based on what they shoot . "Average Joe" , could be the best hunter in the woods , but may make a choice to shoot what he feels like shooting , not based on peer pressure . ;\)
ODM does not make a hunter an expert by any means .
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#498515 - 11/19/07 06:02 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: BamaBoy N Sumner CO
talking about doe harvesting where we hunt in alabama the state comes in each year and tells us how many we need to shoot off the property approx 1400 acres. Last year we were told to shot 75 does, tough part is only 4 of us hunt it. I ended up having to bring a few friends and killed 17 in 2 days. yet we still came no where close to reaching that 75. Man what would i do with 75 DEER!!!


I remember going through that in AL when I lived down there, we brought everyone we knew and still couldn't reach that number. Eventually the landowner got depredation permits and we spotlighted at night and beat them back by literally taking truckloads out several nights in a row. It was ugly but had to happen.

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#498738 - 11/19/07 08:33 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10525
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1




The problem is YOU. You come on a QDM forum looking to prove we are managing for trophy's. You ain't got a clue.

For one,.. read my post. I've never mentioned not one word about big antlers. You got that all made up in your head cause thats the way you wanna see. BUT,.. do not judge me my man ,. you don't know me.

BSK,s post said pretty much the same as mine ,.. why is he so right and i'm so wrong?? You looking to start something here?

Whats my goal. Its to provide the best habitat and produce the best results i can acheive in my area through harvest and management of age structure and keep the herd within its carrying capacity.. Thats my goal for my property,.. the neighbors don't have the luxury to touch the habitat cause some lease the land. BUT,.. they all want better deer and better bucks. The past 2 years they have been a 3.5 and a 4.5 year old buck killed by all us. The 4.5 last year was shot opening of mz and was the second oldest deer checked at the checking station that weekend from the TWRA. For myself and my neighbors,.. we were all happy for this accomplishment. Cause we are manageing for better age class,. and we are getting it. That 4.5 year old buck was only around a 120 class buck. SO,. don't throw your trophy crap in our faces. Its not a trophy under most folks view,.. but a 4.5 year old in this county,.. TROPHY!!

And please don't make me compare MS to TN. Come on dude,. you can figure that out. Its not rocket science. The soil is different and MS can have upwards of 60 to 80 deer per square mile on that soil. Just how much overharvest do you expect in that situation. My area has around a 20 to 25 deer per square mile and poor cherty soil. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.. can you see it??

Anything else i can help you with?? Its obvious you have not got it yet,.. so keep on asking!!


Sorry to have gotten your nickers in a bunch.

What I am trying to do is get people to understand is that there is more than one way to see things, and the QDM bunch is doing a poor job in many instances of making their case to the general public.

I think that QDM is wonderful on private managed properties. I think it will eventually be a disaster on public lands and for the "average" hunter with limited time and access.

What fun is hunting if you dont see and kill deer occasionally? I would not spend the number of days/hours in the woods that I do if I almost never saw any deer and only had the opportunity to kill a deer once every year or three. Unfortunately that is the reality for the "average" hunter who only kills a deer every 2.5years.

If you try and jam QDM down his throat by season limits or by social pressure (telling him to let the little ones pass or slamming them for taking a small buck) then at some point the average hunter will reject the idea of QDM all together. OR worse, they will quit hunting and the hunting community will get smaller and weaker. Neither is a good result.
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#498934 - 11/19/07 10:40 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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 Originally Posted By: renegade50
hey, can some one let me come hunt thier qdm land to see what this is all about???? say let me shoot one of your big racked older bucks and i will post on here what my opinon is about the whole thing for free of course... just for some outside neutral opinon on whether or not this qdm stuff is for real or not

QDM doesn't make them any more stupid. 5 yrs practicing and 2 bucks taken, my odds still aren't that great. But they all tipped the scales at about 160lbs. and I have taken some does that were pushing 120lbs. This year should be a good year I did see some serious rut activity Sat. am. 1 doe being chased by 4 bucks. That is something I have only read about before and never witnessed first hand. So I think that is proof that it is really starting to work for us.
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#499124 - 11/19/07 12:53 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5284
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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ok let me see if i can type this and it make sense......

I am very much into the goal of QDM but alot of it is basic deer and wildlife common sense to me. As i have stated in other threads i have done alot of research on DEER along with other wildlife including behavior, ideal habitats and overall species knowledge. I have practiced QDM for years (actually before i knew there was a name for it) so i dont think alot of this is very NEW to some hunters. If you know deer you know what type of habitat is ideal and if you dont have ideal then ways you can make it as close as possble. You would also know about food sources and density and adverse affects it can have. I have always wanted to kill big deer once the KILLER phased passed me by so i did everything i could to produce that oppertunity (and i dont mean just bucks). it is a common thing TO ME to understand too many deer = poor food. Also removing young males unbalances a heard same with females. I have been Fortunate enough to have all these options on 1400 acres of family land with little pressue in a part of AL that is know to produce some FINE bucks. so i guess my question is how do you get these thoughts to people in the senerios below

1. A guy that only hunts a handful of times a year
2. Public land hunters
3. Small acre owners
4. Youngsters just getting started in hunting.

those are the higher % hunters in TN (i would assume) so those are the people that would need to be reached for it to truely be successfull. These hunters IMO would be tough to reach as you can imagine what goes through there heads during a deer hunt and the expectations they set on those hunts.

again i dont think you have to reach out and drill QDM to people but more of common sense hunting if your goal is to upgrade the overall quality of deer on a given piece of property. This also includes the state and how they set up deer regulations each year. If regs are set to not allow you to accomplish the goal then what is the point of having the goal?

anyways thats my thoughts and i dont mean to offend anyone if i did somehow. HAHAHAHA it makes more sense when i say it outloud rather then typing it.
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John 3:16



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