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#495890 - 11/16/07 07:38 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?


And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT


That would not be correct fishboy1. Trophy Management is a specific form of management designed to produce the largest antlers possible. Quality Deer Management is a specific form of management designed to produce a more natural herd structure in balance with the habitat (more balanced sex ratio, older more natural buck age structure, and a herd density below the carrying capacity of the land).

Biologically, QDM harvest guidelines were based on a "triad" of principles: 1) let young bucks walk to increase the percentage of older bucks in the male population and to increase the total number of bucks (to help balance the adult sex ratio); 2) Use doe harvests to help balance the adult sex ratio; 3) harvest enough does to keep the herd density well-below the maximum carrying capacity of the habitat.

So letting young bucks walk was and is one of the primary principles of QDM, although doe harvests are two of the three primary principles (and often forgotten or under-emphasized).

Recently, a new version of QDM has developed that I have a bit of a problem with. I realize this concept was developed for the right reasons, but I think it discourages some hunters. The QDMA has recently upgraded the whole concept of QDM to include a four point "philosophy" including: 1) Heard Management; 2) Hunter Management; 3) Habitat Management; and 4) Herd Monitoring. Now I absolutely agree that doing all of the above will make the most successful QDM program. However, that system really limits QDM to those who own and/or control all aspects of a property. What about those hunters that only have permission to hunt a property and neither control the other hunters using the land or the habitat? What about those that lease a property hence do not control the habitat? Can't they practice QDM too? I've had many arguments with the QDMA leadership about this "upgrade" of philosophy. I managed my own land and helped many lesees manage their leases using just herd management to great success. We never touched the habitat. Biologically, QDM is a herd management practice. Habitat management is an incredibly powerful management tool, but habitat management is not unique to QDM. The exact same habitat management practices can be used to great effect in all herd management practices, from Traditional to Trophy Management.

My earlier comments about "pass young bucks and food plots" was meant as a comment about those who forget the doe harvest aspects of QDM and the belief many have that food plots alone are the total habitat management answer.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#496308 - 11/16/07 01:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10489
Loc: Warren Co

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BSK,
Right on! Notice folks. NOWHERE in BSK's definition of QDM is "bigger racks" listed. It is a desirable side effect.

Lets ask this question.

How many of you QDM folks would spend the time, money, and effort you do on QDM if it did not result in bigger racked bucks, but made the herd healthier only?
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#496446 - 11/16/07 03:26 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.
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#496522 - 11/16/07 05:08 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: lostsoul]
lostsoul
6 Point


Registered: 07/16/07
Posts: 895
Loc: East TN

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Fishboy you are chasing your tail.
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#496731 - 11/16/07 09:13 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: kholmes]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10489
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: kholmes
fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.


Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#497153 - 11/17/07 06:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
lostsoul
6 Point


Registered: 07/16/07
Posts: 895
Loc: East TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1


Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.



Well once again you show me that you have no clue what you are talking about. I have firmly established an unbelievably successful QDM program on my property in GA, the proof is on the walls and on trail cams in terms of big bucks. I have a 1:2 ratio and have great overall body weight as well. The populations of other critters have increased as well including non-game species. All in all everything worked to perfection after only 6 years.

Here in TN I implemented the same mgt. strategy except for the fact that due to harvest regulations there is no way for us to reduce the antlerless population to a level that is anywhere close to carrying capacity. Thus the habitat is damaged to the point of permanent consequences. We have let hundreds and hundreds of small bucks walk only to have them killed elsewhere, which is fine and I am not judging others for what they chose to kill mind you.

Without the ability to knock the herd back by harvesting Does we are going to try a different approach and just knock the numbers back given the only way we can by killing 8 small bucks.

You do not have any concept of what the siutation is where I hunt here in East Tn and we have no other option. It is sad and probably won't work either but what we tried for the last years hasn't either. Until the regs change to promote mgt. of deer herds I am afraid we are stuck in this black hole. If so, I will give it up and spend my time and money on deer hunting in other states.

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#497709 - 11/18/07 12:25 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
Deer chaser 007,
I can show you a property in MS that has some Monster bucks on it and they shoot anything that walks in that area.

How do they have big bucks when the locals road hunt,spotlight,poach year round, and dont give a hoot about QDM? Cover and food. The land is dairy pasture, privett thickett, and mixed pine/hardwoods with heavy understory. Year round cover, year round food. The deer can get fat and old WITHOUT trigger management because they have the cover and food to do so.

We have gotten photos of a couple whopper bucks 3 years in a row that NOBODY has ever seen during daylight. Would it be easier to tag a whopper if nobody was hunting the property that wasn't on the QDM bandwagon? Sure!

So the real question is What is your goal?

To have a healthy herd? Have a lot of deer? Or to have Shooter bucks?

For most QDM people the true answer is none of the above. The true answer is "To have LOTS of large racked bucks so it is easier to kill a Trophy" and That is NOT QDM.



The problem is YOU. You come on a QDM forum looking to prove we are managing for trophy's. You ain't got a clue.

For one,.. read my post. I've never mentioned not one word about big antlers. You got that all made up in your head cause thats the way you wanna see. BUT,.. do not judge me my man ,. you don't know me.

BSK,s post said pretty much the same as mine ,.. why is he so right and i'm so wrong?? You looking to start something here?

Whats my goal. Its to provide the best habitat and produce the best results i can acheive in my area through harvest and management of age structure and keep the herd within its carrying capacity.. Thats my goal for my property,.. the neighbors don't have the luxury to touch the habitat cause some lease the land. BUT,.. they all want better deer and better bucks. The past 2 years they have been a 3.5 and a 4.5 year old buck killed by all us. The 4.5 last year was shot opening of mz and was the second oldest deer checked at the checking station that weekend from the TWRA. For myself and my neighbors,.. we were all happy for this accomplishment. Cause we are manageing for better age class,. and we are getting it. That 4.5 year old buck was only around a 120 class buck. SO,. don't throw your trophy crap in our faces. Its not a trophy under most folks view,.. but a 4.5 year old in this county,.. TROPHY!!

And please don't make me compare MS to TN. Come on dude,. you can figure that out. Its not rocket science. The soil is different and MS can have upwards of 60 to 80 deer per square mile on that soil. Just how much overharvest do you expect in that situation. My area has around a 20 to 25 deer per square mile and poor cherty soil. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.. can you see it??

Anything else i can help you with?? Its obvious you have not got it yet,.. so keep on asking!!
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#497712 - 11/18/07 12:29 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
BSK,
Right on! Notice folks. NOWHERE in BSK's definition of QDM is "bigger racks" listed. It is a desirable side effect.

Lets ask this question.

How many of you QDM folks would spend the time, money, and effort you do on QDM if it did not result in bigger racked bucks, but made the herd healthier only?


I'm doing that allready!! BUT,.. bigger racks are part of the equation,.. cause its logical a 4.5 year old is gonna have more rack than a 1.5. Let me find a pic of one of my quality deer for you. You can judge. Its around here somewere. I'll get it on later.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#497717 - 11/18/07 12:31 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: kholmes
fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.


Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".


Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#497900 - 11/18/07 06:28 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

Offline
Here you go fishboy. Now alot of folks would look at the pic and say its just a doe. BUT,.. under a management plan you use that doe to evaluate your management plan. First evaluation is age. She is clearly a older age class doe. I would guess she is 5.5 by this pic alone. Second evaluation is health in that age class. You can tell by the hams and the stomach she is clearly a very healthy deer for her age. She shows no sign of decline, or shows no sign of lack of nutrition. Plus,. this pic compared to my other age class does and bucks tell me the habitat in the area is doing its job. This in a year of exceptional drought for my area most of the late spring and all of the summer months. And all age classes from cam pics and hunting observations show a healthy herd from the habitat provided. All deer are average to above size in body weight for their age group. BUT,.. due to lack of mast,.. i do plan on stepping up the doe harvest this year a bit. I experienced very little to no effect from EHD in my herd. SO,.. to balance the habitat vs. herd capacity i need to reduce some of the older does for my younger age classes not to hurt in the coming years.
Note,.. nothing would make me more happy than to harvest this old smart doe. She is very smart ,.. and very nocturnal. She is a management challenge for that reason alone. AND ,. i'm trying.
It ain't all about racks..........
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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