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#495100 - 11/15/07 04:44 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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Average Joe needs to know that you don't have to forego your hunting experience by letting little bucks go. That in fact he will be shooting more deer than he could ever dream of. They will just be does. And eventually he WILL get a crack at 3.5+ buck.
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#495170 - 11/15/07 05:25 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: kholmes]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



I am weighing in a little late and some of this may have been said already but each piece of property has it's own set of issues that need to be addressed to grow quality bucks. For instance my property in GA has great sex ratios, and ample food so that was taken care of and adding year round plots just made a good thing better. What needed work was cover and especially edge cover so we did several select cuts and TSI's to improve bedding cover and the number of deer exploded along with us holding more mature bucks.

I do not for the life of me understand the attraction of shooting small bucks and not tinkering with mgt. of some form or another. I really enjoy it and 6 years into it am really starting to see the payoff.

Too bad I can't manage land here in TN because of the regs passed down by the state which do not allow much antlerless harvests and promote killing small bucks. So I spend my money and time elsewhere when it comes to chasing big bucks, maybe someday my $$$ and a ton of other folks money will return but it will take a proactive measure on TWRA's behalf.

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#495259 - 11/15/07 06:42 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4282
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Fishboy,... i'm gonna weigh in with 1 more thing. You are way off on the let them walk. Let them walk IS the most important part of the management in my opinion. Followed by doe harvest.
You can implement a vast habitat improvement and a ton of plots. BUT,. without the two things above you are wasting your time. If you focus on habitat and plots all you will do is raise the overall number of deer. And thats not the goal.
Its like i told my neighbors,.. you don't have to plant plots and you don't have to make drastic habitat changes. We can manage our herd for the habitat we have, keep the total of deer within the carrying capacity of the land we have, and pass young bucks to increase the age structure of the bucks,. and we will see results. AND ,. we are seeing results.

I agree,.. habitat and plots make a big difference ,. BUT,.. if you can keep your herd within the carrying capacity of whats available to them allready,.you can do the same thing!! This can be accomplished anywere,. including public lands.
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#495317 - 11/15/07 07:16 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?
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#495387 - 11/15/07 08:00 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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This thread has really got the wheels turning for me. I have wasted a whole day of work and have come to the conclusion that if there is a downside to QDM I don't know what it is. Personally I only wished I would have heard about QDM earlier. I will keep preaching the benefits of QDM to whom ever will listen to me. Thats all any of us can do. There will always be opposition to any good idea THAT'S LIFE. So for all you QDM haters out there -- you guys don't know what your missing.
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A vote is like a rifle: Its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
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#495398 - 11/15/07 08:06 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4102
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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deerchaser007,
You pretty much hit the nail on the head on all your post on this thread.
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" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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#495637 - 11/15/07 10:08 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10574
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?


And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT
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#495650 - 11/15/07 10:21 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10574
Loc: Warren Co

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Deer chaser 007,
I can show you a property in MS that has some Monster bucks on it and they shoot anything that walks in that area.

How do they have big bucks when the locals road hunt,spotlight,poach year round, and dont give a hoot about QDM? Cover and food. The land is dairy pasture, privett thickett, and mixed pine/hardwoods with heavy understory. Year round cover, year round food. The deer can get fat and old WITHOUT trigger management because they have the cover and food to do so.

We have gotten photos of a couple whopper bucks 3 years in a row that NOBODY has ever seen during daylight. Would it be easier to tag a whopper if nobody was hunting the property that wasn't on the QDM bandwagon? Sure!

So the real question is What is your goal?

To have a healthy herd? Have a lot of deer? Or to have Shooter bucks?

For most QDM people the true answer is none of the above. The true answer is "To have LOTS of large racked bucks so it is easier to kill a Trophy" and That is NOT QDM.
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If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#495789 - 11/16/07 06:03 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?


And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT


WHere I manage that is the case and one of the other things about QDM is manage each property in the areas it needs to be managed.

You can say what you like if it makes YOU feel better but the proof is on the wall, in the sex ratios, and in the overall health of the property I manage, period. Whatever acronym you wish to use doesn't make a [censored] to me.

I guess you overlooked QDM's slogan "Let him go so he can grow."


Edited by lostsoul (11/16/07 06:04 AM)

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#495890 - 11/16/07 07:38 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?


And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT


That would not be correct fishboy1. Trophy Management is a specific form of management designed to produce the largest antlers possible. Quality Deer Management is a specific form of management designed to produce a more natural herd structure in balance with the habitat (more balanced sex ratio, older more natural buck age structure, and a herd density below the carrying capacity of the land).

Biologically, QDM harvest guidelines were based on a "triad" of principles: 1) let young bucks walk to increase the percentage of older bucks in the male population and to increase the total number of bucks (to help balance the adult sex ratio); 2) Use doe harvests to help balance the adult sex ratio; 3) harvest enough does to keep the herd density well-below the maximum carrying capacity of the habitat.

So letting young bucks walk was and is one of the primary principles of QDM, although doe harvests are two of the three primary principles (and often forgotten or under-emphasized).

Recently, a new version of QDM has developed that I have a bit of a problem with. I realize this concept was developed for the right reasons, but I think it discourages some hunters. The QDMA has recently upgraded the whole concept of QDM to include a four point "philosophy" including: 1) Heard Management; 2) Hunter Management; 3) Habitat Management; and 4) Herd Monitoring. Now I absolutely agree that doing all of the above will make the most successful QDM program. However, that system really limits QDM to those who own and/or control all aspects of a property. What about those hunters that only have permission to hunt a property and neither control the other hunters using the land or the habitat? What about those that lease a property hence do not control the habitat? Can't they practice QDM too? I've had many arguments with the QDMA leadership about this "upgrade" of philosophy. I managed my own land and helped many lesees manage their leases using just herd management to great success. We never touched the habitat. Biologically, QDM is a herd management practice. Habitat management is an incredibly powerful management tool, but habitat management is not unique to QDM. The exact same habitat management practices can be used to great effect in all herd management practices, from Traditional to Trophy Management.

My earlier comments about "pass young bucks and food plots" was meant as a comment about those who forget the doe harvest aspects of QDM and the belief many have that food plots alone are the total habitat management answer.
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