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#510553 - 11/28/07 08:26 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64250
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BamaBoy N Sumner CO
so i guess my question is how do you get these thoughts to people in the senerios below

1. A guy that only hunts a handful of times a year
2. Public land hunters
3. Small acre owners
4. Youngsters just getting started in hunting.

those are the higher % hunters in TN (i would assume) so those are the people that would need to be reached for it to truely be successfull.


The answer is, you don't. QDM isn't for everyone. QDM would provide little benefit for the "couple of weekends per year" hunter, or the public land hunter. The public land hunter would need to hunt a WMA that is being specifically managed for older/larger bucks to see any benefit.

Now smaller land hunters can see some benefit, but to see a big difference they will need to either own the land or control the habitat (have the ability to modify the habitat).

The new hunter will see benefits IF they are learning to hunt on land that is already being managed.



 Quote:
again i dont think you have to reach out and drill QDM to people but more of common sense hunting if your goal is to upgrade the overall quality of deer on a given piece of property. This also includes the state and how they set up deer regulations each year. If regs are set to not allow you to accomplish the goal then what is the point of having the goal?


It all comes down to "what is possible" in a given area. Currently, the TWRA doesn' believe deer densities are high enough in areas designated Unit B to allow alternative forms of management beyond restoration management. Maybe this is true and maybe it isn't (and I suspect there are pockets of both in Unit B), but currently, Unit B hunters/managers are limited in what they can do.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#511622 - 11/28/07 10:23 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
J_W
4 Point


Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 333
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Fishboy you are right on and are bringing to light an opinion I have had for several years now.

For what it's worth, I almost completely agree with QDM and its principles, just not with many of the so-called participants. As has been brought up in this discussion, there are a great deal of folks on the QDM bandwagon that are in it only for big-racked bucks and don't really care for the good of the wildlife and habitat. This will never really change, and really cannot be managed. What is interesting to me, however, is that many, maybe even a majority, of legit QDM practicioners are in an elite minority in terms of ability to intensively manage their hunting area. For example, look at how many folks on this site own or lease land that solely for hunting on it. This land is not a source of income for them, and in many cases is actually a money pit. Many hunters in this segment are vastly removed from the reality of not just the average Joe hunter but even the middle tier that consists of serious, dedicated hunters without the same control over their hunting area. In my observations, those folks who are able to exercise complete control and practice true QDM on their area are in time doing more deer farming than they are deer hunting. Hunting becomes more about which mix to plant and whose shooting house is more elaborate than interpreting sign in the woods and setting up undetected. Obviously, I am not saying that all QDM guys are like this, just that it seems this becomes more and more the norm every year \:\(

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#511629 - 11/28/07 10:36 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: J_W]
J_W
4 Point


Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 333
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Forgot to add, my perspective is that of someone who was born and raised on a multi-generational working cattle and row-crop farm with mountain land traditionally relied on for firewood and lumber for farm use. The deer hunter in me wants to leave a field or a few rows of corn and beans uncut and sow the back pasture fields in winter wheat instead of the fescue and dallas grass that is now brown and dead, but the farmer in me knows that feeding the deer even more is not the way to pay the bills \:D
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#511794 - 11/29/07 07:26 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: J_W]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64250
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: J_W
For what it's worth, I almost completely agree with QDM and its principles, just not with many of the so-called participants. As has been brought up in this discussion, there are a great deal of folks on the QDM bandwagon that are in it only for big-racked bucks and don't really care for the good of the wildlife and habitat. This will never really change, and really cannot be managed.


I agree J_W. Many are on the "QDM bandwagon" due to their desire to kill big antlers. Now I'm not saying the desire to kill big antlered bucks is wrong. We all would like to kill a big antlered buck, and managing specifically for that goal is not wrong. But that is not the primary goal of QDM.



 Quote:
What is interesting to me, however, is that many, maybe even a majority, of legit QDM practicioners are in an elite minority in terms of ability to intensively manage their hunting area. For example, look at how many folks on this site own or lease land that solely for hunting on it. This land is not a source of income for them, and in many cases is actually a money pit. Many hunters in this segment are vastly removed from the reality of not just the average Joe hunter but even the middle tier that consists of serious, dedicated hunters without the same control over their hunting area.


Without question, deep pockets and ownership of your hunting land specifically owned for hunting will produce the best management results, no matter what form of management you are practicing. However, where do you draw the line on who is an "average Joe" hunter? Many hunters join in with other hunters to lease hunting land. None are breaking the bank to do so. Is paying $200-400 to be a part of a QDM lease take a hunter out of the "average Joe" picture? I don't think so. And by your argument about "making a living off the land," considering perhaps 1% of the US population still makes a living off the land, I guess not many people can be a true hunters/managers.


 Quote:
In my observations, those folks who are able to exercise complete control and practice true QDM on their area are in time doing more deer farming than they are deer hunting. Hunting becomes more about which mix to plant and whose shooting house is more elaborate than interpreting sign in the woods and setting up undetected. Obviously, I am not saying that all QDM guys are like this, just that it seems this becomes more and more the norm every year \:\(


I also agree this can be a problem. Too many specialized management practitioners think their results will be completely driven by their management efforts (dollars spent). As I've said many, many times, "growing older bucks is easy, but killing them is not." No matter what management practices you follow and how much you spend, old bucks will never be easy to see and kill. To be regularly successful in harvesting older bucks, it still comes down to hunting skill.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#512267 - 11/29/07 02:57 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5030
Loc: Mississippi

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A couple more points on QDM...

Even those who only get to hunt infrequently can benefit from a QDM program... I'm a prime example. I only get to hunt for a few days in ML, then a few days in gun season. In those few days, I'll typically see 15-25 different bucks, and usually average 2-3 individual bucks per hunt. That's what I enjoy the most. The only downside is that it is difficult to harvest enough does with limited time.

Another point, QDM does not have to be labor intensive or expensive to carry out. My land is approx 60% open and 40% timbered. I've never planted a food plot, nor do I have any need to... I can grow native browse on around 20% of the open ground serving as huge food plots simply by pulling the cattle off those areas, bushhogging in August, then allowing new growth for the deer to feed on all fall/winter. In spring when everything is greening back up, simply rotate the cattle back on to the ground that was rested and reserved for the deer. Works like a charm. It's also fairly easy to drill in clover into many of the designated hayfields, thereby providing additional high protein food sources for the deer.

The improved body weights are probably the most spectacular effect of a QDM program. There's nothing like killing a 200lb deer, especially when compared to the 100 lb yearling bucks.

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#512285 - 11/29/07 03:43 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: megalomaniac]
CPerkins
6 Point


Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 743
Loc: Collierville, TN

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Our lease has changed membership this year apparently and not everyone involved will pass up the bucks that we have tried to pass on in the past. I admitt I was tempted to take a few this year that were below the goal I had made for myself. I let them walk but it didn't feel as positive about it as I have in the past. I have made the point clear that if a buck gets shot it needs to go on the wall. If you shoot one just to cut the horns off and get some meat, they need to shoot a doe. If our new members want to shoot a good 2.5 year old buck and consider that a trophy I will be extremely happy for them when they get their buck. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I won't talk down to someone that shoots a buck I passed on just because it didn't my personal requirements for a "trophy".
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#512325 - 11/29/07 05:18 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: CPerkins]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64250
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Man, you must have a lot of deer megalomaniac! Even in our best years, we only see, on average, 1 buck per 8 hours of hunting time.

But I agree about food plots and the like. And that is my "beef" with the "new" definition of QDM the QDMA has developed. I've practiced and helped others practice QDM very successfully without ever altering anything but the deer that are being killed. No food plots, no habitat management, no nothing except passing up young bucks and shooting enough does to keep the herd density in line with the available habitat.

Now without question, habitat management is an amazingly powerful tool, and will make any QDM program MUCH more successful, but QDM can be accomplished with just a bow, MZ and/or rifle.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#512533 - 11/29/07 09:07 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5030
Loc: Mississippi

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BSK, the difference is that you cover 5 acres from a stand. I have one stand where 4 fields meet and can cover 120 acres from one stand. My personal preference is to see deer when hunting. A mature deer is icing on the cake, and I realize those mature deer just aren't going to step out in the open... except during the rut. But I'm willing to sacrifice an increased harvest of mature deer for the increased deer sightings.

When I hunt for mature deer in the thickets, most of the time I won't see a deer... and I can only do that once or twice before getting bored and move back out to cover more ground. \:\)

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#512686 - 11/30/07 06:38 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: megalomaniac]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64250
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Very good point megalomaniac. Heck, I'm not hunting near thick enough cover if I can see 1 acre of ground from my stand!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#513169 - 12/01/07 05:56 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
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Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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A good QDM program is only as good as the available habitat . Not every tract is going to have the potential to produce multiple sightings of mature bucks . I am lucky if I see a handfull of mature bucks in a season .
It has nothing to do with hunting style .


Edited by Radar (12/01/07 05:58 AM)
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