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#491345 - 11/13/07 07:14 AM Is this the Down side to QDM?
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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I have noticed a certain theme to the usual grumbling about someone shooting a certain buck. Not just on here but out in the real world talking to other hunters.

Its hard to explain but here goes.

I have noticed that a lot of hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they passed. Not only that but hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they deem inferior or too young/small/not a trophy buck. There are a lot of posts about someone being jealous because a neighbor is hunting too close to the property line and shooting "my" deer, or one coming off "My managed property".

Could this be an unintended side effect of QDM? It seems that a lot of hunters develop feelings of ownership toward deer once they start down the QDM path.

Anyone else notice this attitude shift? THoughts?


Edited by fishboy1 (11/13/07 07:14 AM)
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#491356 - 11/13/07 07:21 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
richmanbarbeque
16 Point


Registered: 07/17/03
Posts: 12781
Loc: Middle, Tn

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I think a lot of what you mentioned has been around for years. Property disputes and deer "ownership" has been around before the qdm rage. I think for the most part hunting can bring out the selfishness in all of us. I try as hard as possible to keep selfishness away from my hunting experience and so far so good.
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#491519 - 11/13/07 09:38 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: richmanbarbeque]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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I agree with richmanbbq. QDM more than likely amplifies it.
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#491521 - 11/13/07 09:38 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: richmanbarbeque]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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In my opinion, serious QDMers eventually learn not to care about what the neighbors or others are doing, especially once they are successful with their program. It is those who don't really know what QDM is about (those who only think it is about the buck's antlers) and those who are in the begining and struggling stages of QDM that get really concerned about what others are doing.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#491727 - 11/13/07 12:22 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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stovepipe,

I learned long ago that those hunters that will shoot any buck end up only killing young bucks. It simply amazes me how few of the older bucks that use my property ever get shot by any of my neighbors. I've even had a neighbor tell me he's not going to hunt his own property anymore because there aren't any good bucks around. I guess I should tell that to the mature bucks I have pictures of walking back and forth between our two properties.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#492047 - 11/13/07 04:13 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
I have noticed a certain theme to the usual grumbling about someone shooting a certain buck. Not just on here but out in the real world talking to other hunters.

Its hard to explain but here goes.

I have noticed that a lot of hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they passed. Not only that but hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they deem inferior or too young/small/not a trophy buck. There are a lot of posts about someone being jealous because a neighbor is hunting too close to the property line and shooting "my" deer, or one coming off "My managed property".

Could this be an unintended side effect of QDM? It seems that a lot of hunters develop feelings of ownership toward deer once they start down the QDM path.

Anyone else notice this attitude shift? THoughts?


Yes there are folks who run down others for shooting small deer. I can't relate to it myself ,. for i'm not gonna tell'em what to shoot. BUT,.. BUTTTT,. if they say 1 word about they ain't no big deer to shoot , or TN can't produce trophy's,.. or i didn't pass him cause someone else would shoot,.. i speak my mind like a flea on a dog. I'm gonna let someone have it. I don't care if they like it or not.
Hunting close to a property line is uncalled for. Especially if the hunter knows there are other hunters on the adjoining land. BUT,.. if it is unhunted land next door there ain't a problem. Most hunters will shoot deer across the property lines,.. and that ain't right. It should be in the hunter ethics book not to hunt within 50 yards of a property line were other hunters are present. My opinion..

I don't think hunters feel a ownership toward the deer,. i think its all jealousy. Heck,. i'll be honest. I get a litle jealous sometimes when i see BSK, wes,and all these other qdm guys post pics of these bruisers. BUT,.. at the same time it gives me hope that someday myself and my neighbors can acheive the same goal. Sometimes alittle jealousy is good for a person,.. especially if it inspires them to work harder and become smarter at what they are trying to achieve. BUT,. there are always them ones that let the jealousy take over. AND,.. they are only hurting themselves in my opinion.
Hope that answered your question. If not,... try to focus on the goods of qdm and not the bads. An apple tree is always gonna produce apples,....... some good-some bad. Just throw the bad ones to the side and focus on the good ones. I think you know what i mean...
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#492059 - 11/13/07 04:29 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
I have noticed a certain theme to the usual grumbling about someone shooting a certain buck. Not just on here but out in the real world talking to other hunters.

Its hard to explain but here goes.

I have noticed that a lot of hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they passed. Not only that but hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they deem inferior or too young/small/not a trophy buck. There are a lot of posts about someone being jealous because a neighbor is hunting too close to the property line and shooting "my" deer, or one coming off "My managed property".

Could this be an unintended side effect of QDM? It seems that a lot of hunters develop feelings of ownership toward deer once they start down the QDM path.

Anyone else notice this attitude shift? THoughts?


Yes there are folks who run down others for shooting small deer. I can't relate to it myself ,. for i'm not gonna tell'em what to shoot. BUT,.. BUTTTT,. if they say 1 word about they ain't no big deer to shoot , or TN can't produce trophy's,.. or i didn't pass him cause someone else would shoot,.. i speak my mind like a flea on a dog. I'm gonna let someone have it. I don't care if they like it or not.
Hunting close to a property line is uncalled for. Especially if the hunter knows there are other hunters on the adjoining land. BUT,.. if it is unhunted land next door there ain't a problem. Most hunters will shoot deer across the property lines,.. and that ain't right. It should be in the hunter ethics book not to hunt within 50 yards of a property line were other hunters are present. My opinion..

I don't think hunters feel a ownership toward the deer,. i think its all jealousy. Heck,. i'll be honest. I get a litle jealous sometimes when i see BSK, wes,and all these other qdm guys post pics of these bruisers. BUT,.. at the same time it gives me hope that someday myself and my neighbors can acheive the same goal. Sometimes alittle jealousy is good for a person,.. especially if it inspires them to work harder and become smarter at what they are trying to achieve. BUT,. there are always them ones that let the jealousy take over. AND,.. they are only hurting themselves in my opinion.
Hope that answered your question. If not,... try to focus on the goods of qdm and not the bads. An apple tree is always gonna produce apples,....... some good-some bad. Just throw the bad ones to the side and focus on the good ones. I think you know what i mean...


Jeremy,

Dang, that was well said. How long you been pondering this one?
I couldn't said that better if I would have worked on it for a couple days! \:D Agree 100%.
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#492061 - 11/13/07 04:33 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
156p&y
10 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 4215
Loc: Franklin Tn

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BSK... I think a lot of that is a result from what qdm teaches hunters. I know in my case the best teacher I've ever had in the woods is the whitetail itself and before I became thoroughly involved in QDM I was missing out on a lot of lessons. We see the same thing though, the guys who practice the QDM effectively around us are the ones harvesting the older deer.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
In my opinion, serious QDMers eventually learn not to care about what the neighbors or others are doing, especially once they are successful with their program.


Couldn't agree more. Worrying about others just takes away from what you are trying to do, and it takes enjoyment out of it. Surrounding areas will always reap the benefit from QDM properties, I see it every year. One thing you can't do is get in a wad about it. I personally am very enthusiastic when surrounding neighbors actually see results from what others are doing, it's just one step closer to getting them on the bandwagon with you.

007...great post. I agree with most all that


Edited by 156p&y (11/13/07 04:33 PM)
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#492087 - 11/13/07 04:54 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: TAS]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: TAS
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
I have noticed a certain theme to the usual grumbling about someone shooting a certain buck. Not just on here but out in the real world talking to other hunters.

Its hard to explain but here goes.

I have noticed that a lot of hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they passed. Not only that but hunters get mad when someone kills a deer they deem inferior or too young/small/not a trophy buck. There are a lot of posts about someone being jealous because a neighbor is hunting too close to the property line and shooting "my" deer, or one coming off "My managed property".

Could this be an unintended side effect of QDM? It seems that a lot of hunters develop feelings of ownership toward deer once they start down the QDM path.

Anyone else notice this attitude shift? THoughts?


Yes there are folks who run down others for shooting small deer. I can't relate to it myself ,. for i'm not gonna tell'em what to shoot. BUT,.. BUTTTT,. if they say 1 word about they ain't no big deer to shoot , or TN can't produce trophy's,.. or i didn't pass him cause someone else would shoot,.. i speak my mind like a flea on a dog. I'm gonna let someone have it. I don't care if they like it or not.
Hunting close to a property line is uncalled for. Especially if the hunter knows there are other hunters on the adjoining land. BUT,.. if it is unhunted land next door there ain't a problem. Most hunters will shoot deer across the property lines,.. and that ain't right. It should be in the hunter ethics book not to hunt within 50 yards of a property line were other hunters are present. My opinion..

I don't think hunters feel a ownership toward the deer,. i think its all jealousy. Heck,. i'll be honest. I get a litle jealous sometimes when i see BSK, wes,and all these other qdm guys post pics of these bruisers. BUT,.. at the same time it gives me hope that someday myself and my neighbors can acheive the same goal. Sometimes alittle jealousy is good for a person,.. especially if it inspires them to work harder and become smarter at what they are trying to achieve. BUT,. there are always them ones that let the jealousy take over. AND,.. they are only hurting themselves in my opinion.
Hope that answered your question. If not,... try to focus on the goods of qdm and not the bads. An apple tree is always gonna produce apples,....... some good-some bad. Just throw the bad ones to the side and focus on the good ones. I think you know what i mean...


Jeremy,

Dang, that was well said. How long you been pondering this one?
I couldn't said that better if I would have worked on it for a couple days! \:D Agree 100%.


I didn't ponder on it,.. it just comes out of me. I'm typically a quiet person. BUT,. if i see a chance to open up on how i feel,.. i kick the door wide open and dive all in.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#492161 - 11/13/07 05:52 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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Excellent points.

What I wonder is IF the average Joe, hunting show watching, 4 point shooting, public land hunter will ever make it to the level of understanding that you guys have.

The Hardcore qdm guys USUALLY have a piece of private property to control and manage. There is a certain amount of feedback that you get by managing your own land. You can see the results and get to reap the benefits. Most importantly, you excercise CONTROL over your hunting experience.

The average Joe does not get to see those benefits. He hunts a couple weekends a year and just wants to kill a deer to take home. That is his reality. Maybe he will get lucky and a mature buck will make a mistake and blunder in. Chances are, he will shoot the first legal deer because that is likely to be his only chance to kill a deer with his limited hunting time.

Nothing wrong with that but how likely is it that this guy is going to "buy in" to the whole QDM thing if his reality is 3-4 hunting opportunites a year on Public land? At some point, Joe average is going to say "QDM doesn't work!" OR worse yet, the jealousy factor will kick in and you will hear "I passed on that 4 pointer and some idgit on the next ridge shot him"

Have any of you QDMA guys discussed this possible PR problem for QDM and the "average hunter"?
_________________________
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#492175 - 11/13/07 06:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
RUGER Administrator
Bambi Killa
Non-Typical


Registered: 11/19/99
Posts: 4105560
Loc: TN

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I have noticed it and I have been guilty of complaining about someone shooting a buck I let walk.
With that said, however, the only reason I complained was because he shot it on opening morning of rifle season then 10 minutes later he shot ANOTHER yearling buck.
Needless to say that was my last year on that lease. No, I didn't turn him in as before I learned of it, both deer were tagged by different people and had already been processed.

I personally have no problem with anyone killing anything as long as it is done legally.
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#492183 - 11/13/07 06:09 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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"worrying about others just takes away from what you are trying to do,and it takes enjoyment out of it"


I will be honest and say that I do worry about what is going on next door. I put a lot of time and effort and money into our farm and I want to see it succeed. I feel like a used car salesman sometimes going to the neighbors that hunt trying to get them to participate. Granted a couple we're very receptive and a couple could care less.
One neighbor suggested that we needed to kill all the little bucks so the big ones would have some does to breed. It is ignorance like that makes me worry and question my time spent on a tractor or lugging a backpack sprayer.
Aside from that it is the most fun anyone can have while working your butt off all spring and summer. and I remain steadfast that it will payoff, hopefully in the near future.
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#492195 - 11/13/07 06:29 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: kholmes]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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fishboy1,
I don't think that QDM is for the average hunter. You are right that someone that hunts a couple of times a year could care less about letting a 4 pt or spike go. I believe that QDM is for the hunter that has "been there and done that" so to speak. One who has shot his fair share of 4 pointers and wants to shoot a big mature whitetail. And yes a controlled hunting environment is a big part of it.
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#492378 - 11/13/07 08:26 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
Excellent points.

What I wonder is IF the average Joe, hunting show watching, 4 point shooting, public land hunter will ever make it to the level of understanding that you guys have.

The Hardcore qdm guys USUALLY have a piece of private property to control and manage. There is a certain amount of feedback that you get by managing your own land. You can see the results and get to reap the benefits. Most importantly, you excercise CONTROL over your hunting experience.

The average Joe does not get to see those benefits. He hunts a couple weekends a year and just wants to kill a deer to take home. That is his reality. Maybe he will get lucky and a mature buck will make a mistake and blunder in. Chances are, he will shoot the first legal deer because that is likely to be his only chance to kill a deer with his limited hunting time.

Nothing wrong with that but how likely is it that this guy is going to "buy in" to the whole QDM thing if his reality is 3-4 hunting opportunites a year on Public land? At some point, Joe average is going to say "QDM doesn't work!" OR worse yet, the jealousy factor will kick in and you will hear "I passed on that 4 pointer and some idgit on the next ridge shot him"

Have any of you QDMA guys discussed this possible PR problem for QDM and the "average hunter"?


Yes i have talked to average joe public land hunter that just rifle hunts 2 to 3 times ayear. And 95 percent of them said they would gladly take a doe if the gun stamp allowed it without additional cost. They also understand that in order for a buck or doe to get bigger ,. they must age. 70 percent of those i talked to said if limits were different,. it would change their view of buck hunting on public land. Cause it would force everyone onto the same page. THe other 30 percent just want to see deer. AND,.. feel qdm will greatly reduce their deer sitings while on stand. And when asked if they would not like the challenge of the hunt .. the response was simply want to see deer every time they go to the woods. When asked what do you think that would do for the overall deer herd. Response was the deer herd is someone elses responsibility ,.. they just want to see them.

Some folks you just can't reach..........BUT,. heck ,.. talk to other hunters. You would be surprised at the amount of hunters out there that are willing to change if they see others will change with them. AND,. change is good sometimes!!
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#492416 - 11/13/07 08:37 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: kholmes]
hambone
Spike


Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 96
Loc: nashville,tn.

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This is my third year hunting. The way I wanted to hunt and what I knew would bring me the most enjoyment was to practice QDM. Early in the season last year the only place I had to hunt was 800 acres that anybody could hunt. The first morning we were standing around and some guys brought out four spikes and were complaining about how they never see any large bucks. In total the year before they killed seven 1 1/2 - 2 year olds. Now to me it made perfect sense why they weren't seeing larger deer but it was not my place to tell them how to hunt, all I could do was hunt the way I chose to. This year I am blessed to be on some land that I have the ability to establish food plots, sanctuaries and practice QDM. I get a great deal of enjoyment from just putting in the food plots and seeing them grow and also watching deer and learning about them. For me QDM is about attraction rather than promotion. It isn't for someone to "buy into" it is a choice. I try not to let someone else's legal hunting choice affect my time enjoying the sport that I love. Regardless of where I hunt, I practice QDM, and I consider myself the average hunter. I just choose to hunt a different way than some people.
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#492753 - 11/14/07 02:12 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: hambone]
156p&y
10 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 4215
Loc: Franklin Tn

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Fish I agree with you, but one thing that sticks out is my mind is you can practice QDM anywhere; that is what makes it so special. It's really how you hunt not necessarily the land you have, exactly how hambone states it. I've taken many deer from none QDM land that would normally be considered "not to exist". But I do agree many hunters often let outside influences dictate what they deem a shooter, especially on public land. I would do the same myself. You don't have to have the same property every season to practice it, like I once thought so myself.
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#492845 - 11/14/07 06:55 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

The Hardcore qdm guys USUALLY have a piece of private property to control and manage. There is a certain amount of feedback that you get by managing your own land. You can see the results and get to reap the benefits. Most importantly, you excercise CONTROL over your hunting experience.


Absolutely correct. QDM always works best on land that can be controlled in every way, from hunter densities to habitat.


 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
The average Joe does not get to see those benefits. He hunts a couple weekends a year and just wants to kill a deer to take home. That is his reality. Maybe he will get lucky and a mature buck will make a mistake and blunder in. Chances are, he will shoot the first legal deer because that is likely to be his only chance to kill a deer with his limited hunting time.

Nothing wrong with that but how likely is it that this guy is going to "buy in" to the whole QDM thing if his reality is 3-4 hunting opportunites a year on Public land?


Minimal. And that's why QDM isn't for everybody. I don't expect the average Joe hunting public land to practice QDM. Nor do I ask him to unless the public land is being managed for older bucks. Anyone that hunts 3-4 times per year will not benefit from QDM.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#492850 - 11/14/07 06:58 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: hambone]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: hambone
Early in the season last year the only place I had to hunt was 800 acres that anybody could hunt. The first morning we were standing around and some guys brought out four spikes and were complaining about how they never see any large bucks.


I always congratulate any successful hunter, no matter what they kill. But as someone else mentioned, if I see hunters killing yearling bucks and then complaining how they don't see any "good bucks" I do nicely explain to them why they aren't seeing any older bucks--because they're killing them when they are young. Sometimes they "get it" and sometimes they are uncomprehending.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#493293 - 11/14/07 12:48 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: 156p&y]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: 156p&y
Fish I agree with you, but one thing that sticks out is my mind is you can practice QDM anywhere; that is what makes it so special. It's really how you hunt not necessarily the land you have, exactly how hambone states it. I've taken many deer from none QDM land that would normally be considered "not to exist". But I do agree many hunters often let outside influences dictate what they deem a shooter, especially on public land. I would do the same myself. You don't have to have the same property every season to practice it, like I once thought so myself.



156,
I agree and disagree with you both.
The part that I disagree with points out the problem with QDM and hunter perception.

QDM'ers preach #1. Let em walk. #2. Let em walk. #3. Food plots. Only diehard QDM guys say #1. habitat management #2. Population control through doe harvests #3. Buck age limits.

QDM is a whole package and the media is doing a pretty lame job making that point. I feel that the "let em walk" crowd is creating negative feelings in the Joe average hunter. The perception is "Oh he wants me to pass on my only chance to take a deer this season so it can grow up and he can kill it on the other side of the fence....Screw QDM"
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#493370 - 11/14/07 02:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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I think the problem is people confuse trophy management with QDM.
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#493667 - 11/14/07 05:59 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
156p&y
10 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 4215
Loc: Franklin Tn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
156,
I agree and disagree with you both.
The part that I disagree with points out the problem with QDM and hunter perception.

QDM'ers preach #1. Let em walk. #2. Let em walk. #3. Food plots. Only diehard QDM guys say #1. habitat management #2. Population control through doe harvests #3. Buck age limits.

QDM is a whole package and the media is doing a pretty lame job making that point. I feel that the "let em walk" crowd is creating negative feelings in the Joe average hunter. The perception is "Oh he wants me to pass on my only chance to take a deer this season so it can grow up and he can kill it on the other side of the fence....Screw QDM"


No doubt about that. Your completely correct. Those guys even rub me the wrong way and I won't shoot anything but mature bucks, but yes your 100% correct the media is doing a horrible job making that point. There are only a few select shows on the air now that show what goes into the entire project not just the passing of young bucks.

I guess QDM has changed my hunting habits all around and the whole entire package would be hard to carry out and virtually impossible on some properties. Everywhere I have permission I'm usually in the woods way before the season starts improving that area. Now I may not be able to plant a food plot, or chop down trees to promote new growth but I'm usually able to do a few things that either alters the deer's travel route or create a save haven for them. To me that's how QDM could go anywhere.
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#493933 - 11/14/07 08:11 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
Boone 58
16 Point


Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 14876
Loc: Food Plot

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no matter what program you aspire to you will find jealously and criticism......
goes with the territory!
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#494366 - 11/15/07 06:58 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

QDM'ers preach #1. Let em walk. #2. Let em walk. #3. Food plots. Only diehard QDM guys say #1. habitat management #2. Population control through doe harvests #3. Buck age limits.


Except those that preach just "let 'em walk and food plots" aren't educated QDMers. They don't understand what QDM really is. But that doesn't stop them from being highly irritating and giving QDM a black eye.


 Quote:
QDM is a whole package and the media is doing a pretty lame job making that point. I feel that the "let em walk" crowd is creating negative feelings in the Joe average hunter. The perception is "Oh he wants me to pass on my only chance to take a deer this season so it can grow up and he can kill it on the other side of the fence....Screw QDM"


I completely agree. As I've said many times, the worst thing to happen to deer hunting in a long time is TV and DVD hunting shows. They promote the wrong things, provide incorrect information (due primarily to being infomercials) and frustrate hunters.
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#494367 - 11/15/07 06:59 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: TAS]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: TAS
I think the problem is people confuse trophy management with QDM.


There's a lot of that too TAS, but that goes back to uneducated QDM promotion.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#494430 - 11/15/07 08:06 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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I give you QDM guys a lot of guff but think overall it is a good direction to be moving...generally.

The question I would like to pose is this.

How can the QDM movement do a better job getting the entire package out to hunters/land managers?

Or more importantly, how can we change our positioning to keep the large numbers of "average joe" hunters from turning against QDM?

I really feel that there is going to be a backlash in perception among the average hunter if we keep going the way we are.
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#494480 - 11/15/07 08:54 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
hambone
Spike


Registered: 05/23/07
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Loc: nashville,tn.

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I think one of the best ways is through discussions, like this forum. When I first became aware of the QDMA/QDM I was under the impression that it was "trophy management" until I did my own research( QDMA website, talking to land managers etc.). I think it also shows that the "average joe" is enjoying one of the benefits of QDM by the number of applicants to Catoosa and Presidents Island etc. These are places that have imposed an antler restriction and the taking of does on Catoosa. Now I dont know if you would consider this QDM. I am sure others who are more knowledgeable can enlighten me and others, but that is what I have heard these programs called by the TWRA. I completly believe that QDM should not be forced upon the entire hunting population but rather an individual decision.
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#494527 - 11/15/07 09:22 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: hambone]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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I believe a more grass roots approach is needed here in TN. It is up to the people that are having success with a QDM program to go out and spread the word in there general area. I believe QDMA is doing their job but it is not solely up to them. It takes people like us to go out and show people what QDM is all about. Thats how I learned about it. Probably how most of you learned about it.
I have had some reallly good and bad responses from my nieghbors when I told them what we were doing. But the good ones give me hope. Hopefully they are telling their neighbors and this thing starts to snowball.
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#494741 - 11/15/07 12:25 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: kholmes]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
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but you cannot worry about what the neighbor is doing, you have no contol over the people that surround your property. As long as you are doing what needs to be done on the area you have control over then you should rest easy.

the hardest part of QDM is the vast differences in each individules hunting knowledge and experience. It is just very hard to tell a person that has very limited knowledge in those to areas to let that deer they see walk. I have hunted my entire life and killed my share add in i have such a love for the species that i actually enjoy studying them so letting deer walk and working to improve habit is not an issue with me. anyway i hope that makes sense.
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#494865 - 11/15/07 02:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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Bamma boy,
I know you know about QDM being the "whole package" but even you mentioned "letting them walk" first and foremost.

Actually I was kinda thinking of our discussion about having that nice 8 you passed get shot by that other guy when I made this post.
We were both having trouble reconciling a guy with a bunch of big bucks wanting to shoot a borderline 8 pt.
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#495043 - 11/15/07 03:56 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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yeah well that brings out a WHOLE nother issue to me but its not for this thread LOL.

I do understand the whole package but to your average joe hunter the letting them walk is what is going to stick out IMO. there are alot of hunters that do not have the $ or the equipment to support the habitat goal for QDM so the let them walk idea to me is what will stick out the most. Now how to get people to understand that idea and the purpose of it is the trick then you can begin building knowledge of the whitetail deer species and what it needs to thrive, and how simple inexpensive steps can be made to improve habitat and overall deer health.

either way this is a tough issue to present because each hunter/land manager has is own thoughts and experiences.
_________________________
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John 3:16



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#495100 - 11/15/07 04:44 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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Average Joe needs to know that you don't have to forego your hunting experience by letting little bucks go. That in fact he will be shooting more deer than he could ever dream of. They will just be does. And eventually he WILL get a crack at 3.5+ buck.
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#495170 - 11/15/07 05:25 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: kholmes]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



I am weighing in a little late and some of this may have been said already but each piece of property has it's own set of issues that need to be addressed to grow quality bucks. For instance my property in GA has great sex ratios, and ample food so that was taken care of and adding year round plots just made a good thing better. What needed work was cover and especially edge cover so we did several select cuts and TSI's to improve bedding cover and the number of deer exploded along with us holding more mature bucks.

I do not for the life of me understand the attraction of shooting small bucks and not tinkering with mgt. of some form or another. I really enjoy it and 6 years into it am really starting to see the payoff.

Too bad I can't manage land here in TN because of the regs passed down by the state which do not allow much antlerless harvests and promote killing small bucks. So I spend my money and time elsewhere when it comes to chasing big bucks, maybe someday my $$$ and a ton of other folks money will return but it will take a proactive measure on TWRA's behalf.

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#495259 - 11/15/07 06:42 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Fishboy,... i'm gonna weigh in with 1 more thing. You are way off on the let them walk. Let them walk IS the most important part of the management in my opinion. Followed by doe harvest.
You can implement a vast habitat improvement and a ton of plots. BUT,. without the two things above you are wasting your time. If you focus on habitat and plots all you will do is raise the overall number of deer. And thats not the goal.
Its like i told my neighbors,.. you don't have to plant plots and you don't have to make drastic habitat changes. We can manage our herd for the habitat we have, keep the total of deer within the carrying capacity of the land we have, and pass young bucks to increase the age structure of the bucks,. and we will see results. AND ,. we are seeing results.

I agree,.. habitat and plots make a big difference ,. BUT,.. if you can keep your herd within the carrying capacity of whats available to them allready,.you can do the same thing!! This can be accomplished anywere,. including public lands.
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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#495317 - 11/15/07 07:16 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?
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#495387 - 11/15/07 08:00 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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This thread has really got the wheels turning for me. I have wasted a whole day of work and have come to the conclusion that if there is a downside to QDM I don't know what it is. Personally I only wished I would have heard about QDM earlier. I will keep preaching the benefits of QDM to whom ever will listen to me. Thats all any of us can do. There will always be opposition to any good idea THAT'S LIFE. So for all you QDM haters out there -- you guys don't know what your missing.
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#495398 - 11/15/07 08:06 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
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deerchaser007,
You pretty much hit the nail on the head on all your post on this thread.
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#495637 - 11/15/07 10:08 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?


And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT
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#495650 - 11/15/07 10:21 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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Deer chaser 007,
I can show you a property in MS that has some Monster bucks on it and they shoot anything that walks in that area.

How do they have big bucks when the locals road hunt,spotlight,poach year round, and dont give a hoot about QDM? Cover and food. The land is dairy pasture, privett thickett, and mixed pine/hardwoods with heavy understory. Year round cover, year round food. The deer can get fat and old WITHOUT trigger management because they have the cover and food to do so.

We have gotten photos of a couple whopper bucks 3 years in a row that NOBODY has ever seen during daylight. Would it be easier to tag a whopper if nobody was hunting the property that wasn't on the QDM bandwagon? Sure!

So the real question is What is your goal?

To have a healthy herd? Have a lot of deer? Or to have Shooter bucks?

For most QDM people the true answer is none of the above. The true answer is "To have LOTS of large racked bucks so it is easier to kill a Trophy" and That is NOT QDM.
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#495789 - 11/16/07 06:03 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?


And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT


WHere I manage that is the case and one of the other things about QDM is manage each property in the areas it needs to be managed.

You can say what you like if it makes YOU feel better but the proof is on the wall, in the sex ratios, and in the overall health of the property I manage, period. Whatever acronym you wish to use doesn't make a [censored] to me.

I guess you overlooked QDM's slogan "Let him go so he can grow."


Edited by lostsoul (11/16/07 06:04 AM)

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#495890 - 11/16/07 07:38 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?


And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT


That would not be correct fishboy1. Trophy Management is a specific form of management designed to produce the largest antlers possible. Quality Deer Management is a specific form of management designed to produce a more natural herd structure in balance with the habitat (more balanced sex ratio, older more natural buck age structure, and a herd density below the carrying capacity of the land).

Biologically, QDM harvest guidelines were based on a "triad" of principles: 1) let young bucks walk to increase the percentage of older bucks in the male population and to increase the total number of bucks (to help balance the adult sex ratio); 2) Use doe harvests to help balance the adult sex ratio; 3) harvest enough does to keep the herd density well-below the maximum carrying capacity of the habitat.

So letting young bucks walk was and is one of the primary principles of QDM, although doe harvests are two of the three primary principles (and often forgotten or under-emphasized).

Recently, a new version of QDM has developed that I have a bit of a problem with. I realize this concept was developed for the right reasons, but I think it discourages some hunters. The QDMA has recently upgraded the whole concept of QDM to include a four point "philosophy" including: 1) Heard Management; 2) Hunter Management; 3) Habitat Management; and 4) Herd Monitoring. Now I absolutely agree that doing all of the above will make the most successful QDM program. However, that system really limits QDM to those who own and/or control all aspects of a property. What about those hunters that only have permission to hunt a property and neither control the other hunters using the land or the habitat? What about those that lease a property hence do not control the habitat? Can't they practice QDM too? I've had many arguments with the QDMA leadership about this "upgrade" of philosophy. I managed my own land and helped many lesees manage their leases using just herd management to great success. We never touched the habitat. Biologically, QDM is a herd management practice. Habitat management is an incredibly powerful management tool, but habitat management is not unique to QDM. The exact same habitat management practices can be used to great effect in all herd management practices, from Traditional to Trophy Management.

My earlier comments about "pass young bucks and food plots" was meant as a comment about those who forget the doe harvest aspects of QDM and the belief many have that food plots alone are the total habitat management answer.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#496308 - 11/16/07 01:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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BSK,
Right on! Notice folks. NOWHERE in BSK's definition of QDM is "bigger racks" listed. It is a desirable side effect.

Lets ask this question.

How many of you QDM folks would spend the time, money, and effort you do on QDM if it did not result in bigger racked bucks, but made the herd healthier only?
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#496446 - 11/16/07 03:26 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.
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#496522 - 11/16/07 05:08 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



Fishboy you are chasing your tail.
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#496731 - 11/16/07 09:13 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: kholmes]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: kholmes
fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.


Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".
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#497153 - 11/17/07 06:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: fishboy1


Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.



Well once again you show me that you have no clue what you are talking about. I have firmly established an unbelievably successful QDM program on my property in GA, the proof is on the walls and on trail cams in terms of big bucks. I have a 1:2 ratio and have great overall body weight as well. The populations of other critters have increased as well including non-game species. All in all everything worked to perfection after only 6 years.

Here in TN I implemented the same mgt. strategy except for the fact that due to harvest regulations there is no way for us to reduce the antlerless population to a level that is anywhere close to carrying capacity. Thus the habitat is damaged to the point of permanent consequences. We have let hundreds and hundreds of small bucks walk only to have them killed elsewhere, which is fine and I am not judging others for what they chose to kill mind you.

Without the ability to knock the herd back by harvesting Does we are going to try a different approach and just knock the numbers back given the only way we can by killing 8 small bucks.

You do not have any concept of what the siutation is where I hunt here in East Tn and we have no other option. It is sad and probably won't work either but what we tried for the last years hasn't either. Until the regs change to promote mgt. of deer herds I am afraid we are stuck in this black hole. If so, I will give it up and spend my time and money on deer hunting in other states.

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#497709 - 11/18/07 12:25 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
Deer chaser 007,
I can show you a property in MS that has some Monster bucks on it and they shoot anything that walks in that area.

How do they have big bucks when the locals road hunt,spotlight,poach year round, and dont give a hoot about QDM? Cover and food. The land is dairy pasture, privett thickett, and mixed pine/hardwoods with heavy understory. Year round cover, year round food. The deer can get fat and old WITHOUT trigger management because they have the cover and food to do so.

We have gotten photos of a couple whopper bucks 3 years in a row that NOBODY has ever seen during daylight. Would it be easier to tag a whopper if nobody was hunting the property that wasn't on the QDM bandwagon? Sure!

So the real question is What is your goal?

To have a healthy herd? Have a lot of deer? Or to have Shooter bucks?

For most QDM people the true answer is none of the above. The true answer is "To have LOTS of large racked bucks so it is easier to kill a Trophy" and That is NOT QDM.



The problem is YOU. You come on a QDM forum looking to prove we are managing for trophy's. You ain't got a clue.

For one,.. read my post. I've never mentioned not one word about big antlers. You got that all made up in your head cause thats the way you wanna see. BUT,.. do not judge me my man ,. you don't know me.

BSK,s post said pretty much the same as mine ,.. why is he so right and i'm so wrong?? You looking to start something here?

Whats my goal. Its to provide the best habitat and produce the best results i can acheive in my area through harvest and management of age structure and keep the herd within its carrying capacity.. Thats my goal for my property,.. the neighbors don't have the luxury to touch the habitat cause some lease the land. BUT,.. they all want better deer and better bucks. The past 2 years they have been a 3.5 and a 4.5 year old buck killed by all us. The 4.5 last year was shot opening of mz and was the second oldest deer checked at the checking station that weekend from the TWRA. For myself and my neighbors,.. we were all happy for this accomplishment. Cause we are manageing for better age class,. and we are getting it. That 4.5 year old buck was only around a 120 class buck. SO,. don't throw your trophy crap in our faces. Its not a trophy under most folks view,.. but a 4.5 year old in this county,.. TROPHY!!

And please don't make me compare MS to TN. Come on dude,. you can figure that out. Its not rocket science. The soil is different and MS can have upwards of 60 to 80 deer per square mile on that soil. Just how much overharvest do you expect in that situation. My area has around a 20 to 25 deer per square mile and poor cherty soil. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.. can you see it??

Anything else i can help you with?? Its obvious you have not got it yet,.. so keep on asking!!
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#497712 - 11/18/07 12:29 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
BSK,
Right on! Notice folks. NOWHERE in BSK's definition of QDM is "bigger racks" listed. It is a desirable side effect.

Lets ask this question.

How many of you QDM folks would spend the time, money, and effort you do on QDM if it did not result in bigger racked bucks, but made the herd healthier only?


I'm doing that allready!! BUT,.. bigger racks are part of the equation,.. cause its logical a 4.5 year old is gonna have more rack than a 1.5. Let me find a pic of one of my quality deer for you. You can judge. Its around here somewere. I'll get it on later.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#497717 - 11/18/07 12:31 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: kholmes
fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.


Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".


Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#497900 - 11/18/07 06:28 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Here you go fishboy. Now alot of folks would look at the pic and say its just a doe. BUT,.. under a management plan you use that doe to evaluate your management plan. First evaluation is age. She is clearly a older age class doe. I would guess she is 5.5 by this pic alone. Second evaluation is health in that age class. You can tell by the hams and the stomach she is clearly a very healthy deer for her age. She shows no sign of decline, or shows no sign of lack of nutrition. Plus,. this pic compared to my other age class does and bucks tell me the habitat in the area is doing its job. This in a year of exceptional drought for my area most of the late spring and all of the summer months. And all age classes from cam pics and hunting observations show a healthy herd from the habitat provided. All deer are average to above size in body weight for their age group. BUT,.. due to lack of mast,.. i do plan on stepping up the doe harvest this year a bit. I experienced very little to no effect from EHD in my herd. SO,.. to balance the habitat vs. herd capacity i need to reduce some of the older does for my younger age classes not to hurt in the coming years.
Note,.. nothing would make me more happy than to harvest this old smart doe. She is very smart ,.. and very nocturnal. She is a management challenge for that reason alone. AND ,. i'm trying.
It ain't all about racks..........
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#497937 - 11/18/07 06:58 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: kholmes
fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.


Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".


Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.



Sorry, There have been studies done that show you are wrong, unless you are referring to the Key deer.
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#497970 - 11/18/07 07:16 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: kholmes
fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.


Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".


Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.



Sorry, There have been studies done that show you are wrong, unless you are referring to the Key deer.

Fishboy you are wrong there was actually talk of sub classifying some of the FL deer because they are so much different then the rest of the whitetails in the SE. The cover is dense and food is short so they are smaller bodied and smaller racked.

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#498024 - 11/18/07 07:45 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Actually he is correct,.. i just looked it up. DNA testing is proving that the 37 different subspecies of whitetail are from the original 1 species. The differences are in the deer becoming locally adapted to its habitat and surroundings. Causing the differences in appearance and size. Very interesting read......

My apology fishboy,. didn't know anything about that DNA testing info.
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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#498040 - 11/18/07 07:54 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
tnclayboy
10 Point


Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 2987
Loc: Arlington tn

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It used to bother me that the ones I pass would get clobbered later .But I grew up and got over it . Its part of hunting QDM or not. I just figure I will have to hunt a little harder.
I talked with the old man that hunts the other side of the property today and he said he aint seen a deer in severall hunts and I have seen and passed on 8 to 10 deer several times this year . He don't see any deer because shoots the first one he sees every time he hunts . so naturally he dosn't see as many deer that I do. But he kills twice as many.It used to bother me but It doesn't bother me in least anymore. He just hunts the way he wants and I leave him alone .He is a great management tool LOL
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#498059 - 11/18/07 08:03 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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Bergmanns Rule, Animals tend to be larger as you travel farther from the equator. when the animals become larger or when body mass increases, porportionally the surface area decreases which results in less loss of body heat. this rule is vitally important to deer subspecies living in both warm tropical flats of Florida or cold regions.

subspecies found in FL mcilhennyi, osceloa and seminolus however thes subspecies are also found in Alabama, LA, Mississippi and parts of Texas. So lostsoul tech you are correct that the deer in FL are not the same as TN but you are incorrect in saying they are not the same as the rest of the SE. Just sayin......

alot of the deer size in FL is do to habitat and soil nutrience as well as Bergmanns Rule. There is no real reason for an animal living in that climate to grow a large body. Yet those same subspecies are being killed in Alabama with a MUCH larger body size and antler size.

not trying to start nothing just keeping the facts straight as they are right now.
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#498065 - 11/18/07 08:07 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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talking about doe harvesting where we hunt in alabama the state comes in each year and tells us how many we need to shoot off the property approx 1400 acres. Last year we were told to shot 75 does, tough part is only 4 of us hunt it. I ended up having to bring a few friends and killed 17 in 2 days. yet we still came no where close to reaching that 75. Man what would i do with 75 DEER!!!
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#498511 - 11/19/07 06:01 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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I think the first problem is when we start catagorizing other hunters based on what they shoot . "Average Joe" , could be the best hunter in the woods , but may make a choice to shoot what he feels like shooting , not based on peer pressure . ;\)
ODM does not make a hunter an expert by any means .
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#498515 - 11/19/07 06:02 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: BamaBoy N Sumner CO
talking about doe harvesting where we hunt in alabama the state comes in each year and tells us how many we need to shoot off the property approx 1400 acres. Last year we were told to shot 75 does, tough part is only 4 of us hunt it. I ended up having to bring a few friends and killed 17 in 2 days. yet we still came no where close to reaching that 75. Man what would i do with 75 DEER!!!


I remember going through that in AL when I lived down there, we brought everyone we knew and still couldn't reach that number. Eventually the landowner got depredation permits and we spotlighted at night and beat them back by literally taking truckloads out several nights in a row. It was ugly but had to happen.

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#498738 - 11/19/07 08:33 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1




The problem is YOU. You come on a QDM forum looking to prove we are managing for trophy's. You ain't got a clue.

For one,.. read my post. I've never mentioned not one word about big antlers. You got that all made up in your head cause thats the way you wanna see. BUT,.. do not judge me my man ,. you don't know me.

BSK,s post said pretty much the same as mine ,.. why is he so right and i'm so wrong?? You looking to start something here?

Whats my goal. Its to provide the best habitat and produce the best results i can acheive in my area through harvest and management of age structure and keep the herd within its carrying capacity.. Thats my goal for my property,.. the neighbors don't have the luxury to touch the habitat cause some lease the land. BUT,.. they all want better deer and better bucks. The past 2 years they have been a 3.5 and a 4.5 year old buck killed by all us. The 4.5 last year was shot opening of mz and was the second oldest deer checked at the checking station that weekend from the TWRA. For myself and my neighbors,.. we were all happy for this accomplishment. Cause we are manageing for better age class,. and we are getting it. That 4.5 year old buck was only around a 120 class buck. SO,. don't throw your trophy crap in our faces. Its not a trophy under most folks view,.. but a 4.5 year old in this county,.. TROPHY!!

And please don't make me compare MS to TN. Come on dude,. you can figure that out. Its not rocket science. The soil is different and MS can have upwards of 60 to 80 deer per square mile on that soil. Just how much overharvest do you expect in that situation. My area has around a 20 to 25 deer per square mile and poor cherty soil. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.. can you see it??

Anything else i can help you with?? Its obvious you have not got it yet,.. so keep on asking!!


Sorry to have gotten your nickers in a bunch.

What I am trying to do is get people to understand is that there is more than one way to see things, and the QDM bunch is doing a poor job in many instances of making their case to the general public.

I think that QDM is wonderful on private managed properties. I think it will eventually be a disaster on public lands and for the "average" hunter with limited time and access.

What fun is hunting if you dont see and kill deer occasionally? I would not spend the number of days/hours in the woods that I do if I almost never saw any deer and only had the opportunity to kill a deer once every year or three. Unfortunately that is the reality for the "average" hunter who only kills a deer every 2.5years.

If you try and jam QDM down his throat by season limits or by social pressure (telling him to let the little ones pass or slamming them for taking a small buck) then at some point the average hunter will reject the idea of QDM all together. OR worse, they will quit hunting and the hunting community will get smaller and weaker. Neither is a good result.
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#498934 - 11/19/07 10:40 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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 Originally Posted By: renegade50
hey, can some one let me come hunt thier qdm land to see what this is all about???? say let me shoot one of your big racked older bucks and i will post on here what my opinon is about the whole thing for free of course... just for some outside neutral opinon on whether or not this qdm stuff is for real or not

QDM doesn't make them any more stupid. 5 yrs practicing and 2 bucks taken, my odds still aren't that great. But they all tipped the scales at about 160lbs. and I have taken some does that were pushing 120lbs. This year should be a good year I did see some serious rut activity Sat. am. 1 doe being chased by 4 bucks. That is something I have only read about before and never witnessed first hand. So I think that is proof that it is really starting to work for us.
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#499124 - 11/19/07 12:53 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

Offline
ok let me see if i can type this and it make sense......

I am very much into the goal of QDM but alot of it is basic deer and wildlife common sense to me. As i have stated in other threads i have done alot of research on DEER along with other wildlife including behavior, ideal habitats and overall species knowledge. I have practiced QDM for years (actually before i knew there was a name for it) so i dont think alot of this is very NEW to some hunters. If you know deer you know what type of habitat is ideal and if you dont have ideal then ways you can make it as close as possble. You would also know about food sources and density and adverse affects it can have. I have always wanted to kill big deer once the KILLER phased passed me by so i did everything i could to produce that oppertunity (and i dont mean just bucks). it is a common thing TO ME to understand too many deer = poor food. Also removing young males unbalances a heard same with females. I have been Fortunate enough to have all these options on 1400 acres of family land with little pressue in a part of AL that is know to produce some FINE bucks. so i guess my question is how do you get these thoughts to people in the senerios below

1. A guy that only hunts a handful of times a year
2. Public land hunters
3. Small acre owners
4. Youngsters just getting started in hunting.

those are the higher % hunters in TN (i would assume) so those are the people that would need to be reached for it to truely be successfull. These hunters IMO would be tough to reach as you can imagine what goes through there heads during a deer hunt and the expectations they set on those hunts.

again i dont think you have to reach out and drill QDM to people but more of common sense hunting if your goal is to upgrade the overall quality of deer on a given piece of property. This also includes the state and how they set up deer regulations each year. If regs are set to not allow you to accomplish the goal then what is the point of having the goal?

anyways thats my thoughts and i dont mean to offend anyone if i did somehow. HAHAHAHA it makes more sense when i say it outloud rather then typing it.
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#499249 - 11/19/07 02:19 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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Bammer boy,

See some hunters will never get to that level. IT took years for you to get to the level you are and you are blessed with an excellent property to hunt.

Most "average" hunters will never get there. Not enough time, no access to good property, or a half baked QDM program based on TV show "let me sell you some seed" wisdom and "on my property" anecdotal evidence.

I saw that same "bucks of Tecomate" episode you were talking about this weekend and what a bucket of crapola. That is an intensely Trophy managed property and they were slinging QDM around like you could expect similar results.

Oh and one other note about why QDM will likely be a disaster on public lands in coming years. Hunter numbers and dwindling public land. Less places to hunt, more guys on the same property = Fewer bucks.
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#499365 - 11/19/07 03:09 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

Offline
I guess my overall point is, with all the information so avalible today to all hunters the common sense/QDM research should be so easy to do. Yet AS A WHOLE i dont think we have much more knowledge then my parents had growing up. When i was a kid i asked every person i knew that hunted to explain everything they could to me. I always asked what happened during their hunt (ie how many deer, what time, which way where they headed, where did they come from, what was their behavior like....ect...ect) because i wanted to learn AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Then i went to college and majored in Foresty and wildlife biology because i just could not get enough of it. Even today I ask those same questions to anyone i can because i think you can never know enough. The more you know about a species the more you respect and come to love them. Its not all about killing, to me its hunting an animal i have Immense respect and love for. Dont get me wrong i still get BUCK FEVER (which if i ever quit getting i will stop hunting) as much as the next but it is a different feeling to me now. Its not so much the fear of missing or not getting a shot, its more of all the work i did payed off and here is my Opportunity.

You dont have to hunt everyday to want to learn about the animal you are hunting. As I started this thread with how much information is so readily available today it is disappointing to me how uneducated some hunters are.

***disclaimer***
The veiws above are strickly the views of the person writing it and in no way is referenced to anyone inparticular.
_________________________
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John 3:16



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#499428 - 11/19/07 04:08 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1




The problem is YOU. You come on a QDM forum looking to prove we are managing for trophy's. You ain't got a clue.

For one,.. read my post. I've never mentioned not one word about big antlers. You got that all made up in your head cause thats the way you wanna see. BUT,.. do not judge me my man ,. you don't know me.

BSK,s post said pretty much the same as mine ,.. why is he so right and i'm so wrong?? You looking to start something here?

Whats my goal. Its to provide the best habitat and produce the best results i can acheive in my area through harvest and management of age structure and keep the herd within its carrying capacity.. Thats my goal for my property,.. the neighbors don't have the luxury to touch the habitat cause some lease the land. BUT,.. they all want better deer and better bucks. The past 2 years they have been a 3.5 and a 4.5 year old buck killed by all us. The 4.5 last year was shot opening of mz and was the second oldest deer checked at the checking station that weekend from the TWRA. For myself and my neighbors,.. we were all happy for this accomplishment. Cause we are manageing for better age class,. and we are getting it. That 4.5 year old buck was only around a 120 class buck. SO,. don't throw your trophy crap in our faces. Its not a trophy under most folks view,.. but a 4.5 year old in this county,.. TROPHY!!

And please don't make me compare MS to TN. Come on dude,. you can figure that out. Its not rocket science. The soil is different and MS can have upwards of 60 to 80 deer per square mile on that soil. Just how much overharvest do you expect in that situation. My area has around a 20 to 25 deer per square mile and poor cherty soil. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.. can you see it??

Anything else i can help you with?? Its obvious you have not got it yet,.. so keep on asking!!


Sorry to have gotten your nickers in a bunch.

What I am trying to do is get people to understand is that there is more than one way to see things, and the QDM bunch is doing a poor job in many instances of making their case to the general public.

I think that QDM is wonderful on private managed properties. I think it will eventually be a disaster on public lands and for the "average" hunter with limited time and access.

What fun is hunting if you dont see and kill deer occasionally? I would not spend the number of days/hours in the woods that I do if I almost never saw any deer and only had the opportunity to kill a deer once every year or three. Unfortunately that is the reality for the "average" hunter who only kills a deer every 2.5years.

If you try and jam QDM down his throat by season limits or by social pressure (telling him to let the little ones pass or slamming them for taking a small buck) then at some point the average hunter will reject the idea of QDM all together. OR worse, they will quit hunting and the hunting community will get smaller and weaker. Neither is a good result.


Heres how you should have worded it for the 3 or 4 time a year hunter. If your gonna say it , say it right.
What fun is hunting if you don't see and kill BUCKS occasionally? I would not spend the number of days/hours in the woods that i do if i almost never saw any BUCK and only had the oppurtunity to kill a BUCK once every 2 to 3 years.Unfortunately, that is reality for the average hunter who only kills a BUCK every 2.5 years.

The average hunter is gonna reject qdm cause he is not worried about DEER harvest,.. he is worried about BUCK harvest. Average hunters are not gonna kill a doe to save their life. Mainly because they still believe the more deer we have,. the more oppurtunity they have. You cannot make them understand that with proper management ,. they can kil more deer and see more deer. I didn't say bucks,. i said deer. BUT,. they are not interested in deer,. just horns. They are just as horn crazy as any trophy hunter. At least a trophy hunter will kill a doe.

In other words,.. they are living in the restoration age and age of traditional management. That ain't gonna cut it any longer. We have to have some kind of management in place to control the population. Not only private,.. but public land also. If you loose a few hunters ,. thats how it goes. The management of the deer population should be first and foremost. If they can't except it,. oh well. We will tell them i told you so when its all said and done.

BUT,. like your stat says,.. they kill a deer every 2.5 years. Why is it its a 1.5 year old buck every 2.5 year?? At that rate,. they should be harvesting a 2.5 year old buck every 2.5 years!!

At some point and time you must tell a hunter who only hunts 3 to 4 times a year that you cannot expect to see deer by the tons every time. The habitat cannot support it in TN. You would be surprised at the number of them that understands that. And they especially understand it when you tell them its called HUNTING,.. not KILLING!! And we shouldn't have to have 100 deer per square mile just so a hunter can go out 1 time and say he hunted a got a deer. Sometimes ,. you actually have to HUNT!!

Thats my opinion,...
By the way ,. sorry for my rudeness earlier. I was cranky yesterday from a poor weekend of HUNTING deer.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#499641 - 11/19/07 06:37 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: deerchaser007]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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How much time scouting, and working for deer season to open does a 3 to 4 times a year hunter put in? You can't expect them to present themselves broadside to you if you don't do your homework.

The future of hunting is in the hands of the people who think and work on it year round. Most people who only go 3 to 4 times a year probably wouldn't miss it that much.

Hey fishboy I see in one of the fishing threads that someone is advocating releasing fish so they will get LARGER!!!! What is this world coming to???? You better go check it out! \:D
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#499694 - 11/19/07 07:17 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: TAS]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: TAS
How much time scouting, and working for deer season to open does a 3 to 4 times a year hunter put in? You can't expect them to present themselves broadside to you if you don't do your homework.

The future of hunting is in the hands of the people who think and work on it year round. Most people who only go 3 to 4 times a year probably wouldn't miss it that much.

Hey fishboy I see in one of the fishing threads that someone is advocating releasing fish so they will get LARGER!!!! What is this world coming to???? You better go check it out! \:D


\:D

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#499732 - 11/19/07 07:35 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
oneshothc
4 Point


Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 312
Loc: New Market, Tn.

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I agree with TAS.........hunters don't think of deer as mine or yours! If you are doing it right on your piece of ground, why worry about what the neighbors are doing? Let them shoot the young/little guys all the while, your place will be the hang-out for the older/bigger guys!
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#500127 - 11/20/07 04:49 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: oneshothc]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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I practice QDM on the small properties I hunt , along with the clubs I have been in . On the 170 acre tract I hunt , the landowner will shoot nearly any buck that walks past , but he is slowly seeing the benifits of passing up smaller bucks as he took a 9 pt. last season .
He is one of the 3 or 4 times a year hunters , but I won't hold it agains't him if his standards differ from mine . I can influence him ,and I think I have done that over time .
Promote the positive aspects of QDM , and don't force feed it to those who don't want to listen .And like I said in my previous post , don't catagorize other hunters and base their abilities on their harvest standards .
Practicing QDM doesn't make a expert hunter .
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#500203 - 11/20/07 07:32 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: TAS]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: TAS
How much time scouting, and working for deer season to open does a 3 to 4 times a year hunter put in? You can't expect them to present themselves broadside to you if you don't do your homework.

The future of hunting is in the hands of the people who think and work on it year round. Most people who only go 3 to 4 times a year probably wouldn't miss it that much.

Hey fishboy I see in one of the fishing threads that someone is advocating releasing fish so they will get LARGER!!!! What is this world coming to???? You better go check it out! \:D


Ok so what you sound like you are saying is that a 3-4 weekend a year hunter does not deserve a buck because he does not put the same amount of time and effort into his hunting as the die hard QDM guys.

So you want him to stop shooting small bucks, AND you dont think he deserves a big one since he doesn't hunt enough in your eyes, but he is supposed to keep hunting and like it or "quit hunting and not miss it that much".

That is exactly the elitist attitude that will backfire against hunters and especially the QDM or quit hunting crowd.

Guys, We need every hunter we can get to be out buying a license, enjoying the sport, and helping to keep our traditions alive. Without the average hunter, hunting would be like England where only the rich or privledged will be able to hunt.
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#500589 - 11/20/07 11:55 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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No, don't put words in my mouth. Kholmes was saying how QDM doesn't make em dumber and how he has only killed two in five years of practicing. What I said, I said. Regardless of what kind of management you have, unless your baiting you cannot EXPECT to kill good deer if you don't put in the time scouting and you only go 3 to 4 times a year. When it comes to hunting it is what it is. The more you go the better your chances are.

The future of hunting IS in the hands of the diehard hunter because he is the one that will take the time and effort to work with kids and legislatures. I and one of the property owners next to me open our lands up for the juvenile hunt. They can shoot whatever they want. I don't see anyone that only hunts a couple times a year, building and putting up stands that will seat two in order to invite other peoples kids to hunt for free. Yes I practice QDM and I am a member of QDMA but I let kids and women shoot what they want. Why.. because that's the future of hunting. When the anti's see women and kids hunting it blows the whole beer drinking shoot anything sterotype out the window. I don't let experienced hunters on my propery shoot young bucks because I want to let the ones that the kids miss grow up to balance the herd. You can search all my posts and you will not see where I want to push QDM on anyone with regs or anything else. It is an individuals own decision. Though I will let someone know real quick if they start complaining about there not being any big ol bucks and they are shooting yearlings. I also have problems with contests when it comes to hunting but that's me.

My last statement was a joke and I'm sorry that you took it wrong. I just have a problem with people lumping everyone that practices QDM together. Oh yeah I own 413 acres that I worked my whole life to buy. I live in a single wide trailer right now in order to afford it. I don't think the elite live in single wide mobile homes! \:D
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#500693 - 11/20/07 01:04 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: TAS]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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 Originally Posted By: TAS
No, don't put words in my mouth. Kholmes was saying how QDM doesn't make em dumber and how he has only killed two in five years of practicing. What I said, I said. Regardless of what kind of management you have, unless your baiting you cannot EXPECT to kill good deer if you don't put in the time scouting and you only go 3 to 4 times a year. When it comes to hunting it is what it is. The more you go the better your chances are.

The future of hunting IS in the hands of the diehard hunter because he is the one that will take the time and effort to work with kids and legislatures. I and one of the property owners next to me open our lands up for the juvenile hunt. They can shoot whatever they want. I don't see anyone that only hunts a couple times a year, building and putting up stands that will seat two in order to invite other peoples kids to hunt for free. Yes I practice QDM and I am a member of QDMA but I let kids and women shoot what they want. Why.. because that's the future of hunting. When the anti's see women and kids hunting it blows the whole beer drinking shoot anything sterotype out the window. I don't let experienced hunters on my propery shoot young bucks because I want to let the ones that the kids miss grow up to balance the herd. You can search all my posts and you will not see where I want to push QDM on anyone with regs or anything else. It is an individuals own decision. Though I will let someone know real quick if they start complaining about there not being any big ol bucks and they are shooting yearlings. I also have problems with contests when it comes to hunting but that's me.

My last statement was a joke and I'm sorry that you took it wrong. I just have a problem with people lumping everyone that practices QDM together. Oh yeah I own 413 acres that I worked my whole life to buy. I live in a single wide trailer right now in order to afford it. I don't think the elite live in single wide mobile homes! \:D




Tim you have a nice farm and have done well managing the habitat as well as the deer herd . You promote the positive aspects of hunting , such as hunting with family more than you do QDM .
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#500743 - 11/20/07 01:48 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: TAS]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: TAS
No, don't put words in my mouth. Kholmes was saying how QDM doesn't make em dumber and how he has only killed two in five years of practicing. What I said, I said. Regardless of what kind of management you have, unless your baiting you cannot EXPECT to kill good deer if you don't put in the time scouting and you only go 3 to 4 times a year. When it comes to hunting it is what it is. The more you go the better your chances are.

The future of hunting IS in the hands of the diehard hunter because he is the one that will take the time and effort to work with kids and legislatures. I and one of the property owners next to me open our lands up for the juvenile hunt. They can shoot whatever they want. I don't see anyone that only hunts a couple times a year, building and putting up stands that will seat two in order to invite other peoples kids to hunt for free. Yes I practice QDM and I am a member of QDMA but I let kids and women shoot what they want. Why.. because that's the future of hunting. When the anti's see women and kids hunting it blows the whole beer drinking shoot anything sterotype out the window. I don't let experienced hunters on my propery shoot young bucks because I want to let the ones that the kids miss grow up to balance the herd. You can search all my posts and you will not see where I want to push QDM on anyone with regs or anything else. It is an individuals own decision. Though I will let someone know real quick if they start complaining about there not being any big ol bucks and they are shooting yearlings. I also have problems with contests when it comes to hunting but that's me.

My last statement was a joke and I'm sorry that you took it wrong. I just have a problem with people lumping everyone that practices QDM together. Oh yeah I own 413 acres that I worked my whole life to buy. I live in a single wide trailer right now in order to afford it. I don't think the elite live in single wide mobile homes! \:D


TAS,
Thanks for the clarification. I salute you for your efforts to get more people involved in hunting. That is precisely the attitude we need more of in the hunting world!
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#501209 - 11/20/07 07:44 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BoonerBucks
8 Point


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 1103
Loc: Blount co, Tn

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My neighbors simply told me to "Keep planting those big, lushes food plots...we kill a monster buck every year either leaving or going to your plots!" It lit a fire under me, but i just laughed and told them that I'm glad my blood and sweat helped them harvest a good buck. They own a tractor and a couple hundred acres of land just as I do, but they don't practice QDM. It really does make me jealous that they reep my work for thier benefit and could easily join me on creating new plots and harvesting older bucks. That's the hunting world as of today I guess, and it is what it is.
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#501865 - 11/21/07 09:26 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BoonerBucks]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: BoonerBucks
My neighbors simply told me to "Keep planting those big, lushes food plots...we kill a monster buck every year either leaving or going to your plots!" It lit a fire under me, but i just laughed and told them that I'm glad my blood and sweat helped them harvest a good buck. They own a tractor and a couple hundred acres of land just as I do, but they don't practice QDM. It really does make me jealous that they reep my work for thier benefit and could easily join me on creating new plots and harvesting older bucks. That's the hunting world as of today I guess, and it is what it is.


Maybe they do and maybe they dont. What exactly is a monster buck to them? 6pt, 8 pt, 160class 10pt?
Had one guy bragging about the huge KY bucks he killed every year. He had a couple 95-110" 8 pts and a 9 that might go 110-120max. Nice deer to be sure but huge?

Besides, who really cares? They are hunting legally on their land. The deer that you see and shoot on your property likely came from someone elses property. Unless you have 1000+ acres, chances are good that "your" deer are not living exclusively on your property.

Remember, Wildlife, including the deer that "you grew" are the property of the people of the state and dont belong to the landowner no matter how many plots you plant or little bucks you pass.
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#501987 - 11/21/07 10:49 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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I will say this, I have had 2 bucks this year get shot by other guys that hunt on the property i hunt on. Each buck i let walk yet they killed it. does it kinda make me mad sure but really how much sense does that make. its not so much that they shot MY deer as it is I know for sure i wont see him next year now. Sure they were nice deer 110-120 class types so i HOPE they see them as absolute monsters (that atleast would help me sleep LOL).
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#502045 - 11/21/07 11:25 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: BamaBoy N Sumner CO
I will say this, I have had 2 bucks this year get shot by other guys that hunt on the property i hunt on. Each buck i let walk yet they killed it. does it kinda make me mad sure but really how much sense does that make. its not so much that they shot MY deer as it is I know for sure i wont see him next year now. Sure they were nice deer 110-120 class types so i HOPE they see them as absolute monsters (that atleast would help me sleep LOL).



You need to keep your pie hole shut about what you are seeing back there! Maybe I should tell them about the 73 pointer you saw hanging around the barn! \:D
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#502060 - 11/21/07 11:34 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: ]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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What 73pt??? i have not seen a deer all year in the back of the property.......dont even really know why i am hunting there.



just practice
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#502276 - 11/21/07 01:28 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: BamaBoy N Sumner CO
What 73pt??? i have not seen a deer all year in the back of the property.......dont even really know why i am hunting there.



just practice



(loud voice as they approach) "Did you see that huge 11 point over by the shed on the front side of the property? Wow"

"What are you guys talking about?"

"Uh... nothing much. Bammer boy just saw a little spike by the pond, sooo where are you guys hunting tonight?"
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#502279 - 11/21/07 01:29 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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We might need to start making some fake rubs and scrapes in stupid places too! HA HA!!
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#502997 - 11/21/07 09:49 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
12 Point


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 5343
Loc: Wilson County, TN

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I did see a nice 9pt tonight in the rain, and when the owner asked me what i saw i said "a good 9pt but i cant say where because the last 2 times i told you what i saw they ended up dead 48hours later" good thing we are friends because he just laughed about it.
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#503467 - 11/22/07 01:12 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17885
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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I hunt QDM property and am in the 3rd year of doing so. I haven't killed a buck yet but I eat lots of deer meat. We have a 120" minimum on our bucks and I've let quite a few of them that size and bigger walk. Does that make me a trophy hunter? I hardly think so. Because we are a QDM property I have the opportunity to take an older buck and we have them in huntable numbers quite a bit bigger than 120". So I hold out until I can connect with one of them. I don't call a 135"-165" buck a trophy by "trophy standards" but "average" top end success in a working QDM program for Tn. Without that program my chances at that potential success would be drastically cut and it's that chance that keeps much of my interest peaked. I love it all but without that realistic opportunity available much of the drive to deer hunt would be lost for me. I just kind of get tired of hearing about how the QDM minded are all about trophy hunting. Two completely different areas.

I also get tired of hearing about the "if he crosses the fence he's dead so I'll kill him first" theory. That sort of makes it sound like there should be a starting gate at sunrise complete with a starter's pistol. Let the competition begin. I'd rather compete against the deer and that's exactly what a QDM program does for me. I've never owned a deer so I can't really say that someone shot my buck on the other side of the fence. I understand first hand the frustration of watching the efforts of your restraint consistantly biting the dust. If your goal is to practice QDM the best bet is to lease/join a QDM club/create a co-op of like minded people.
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#503869 - 11/22/07 08:07 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: Mike Belt]
TNTony
Non-Typical


Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 32526
Loc: Ft. Liquordale, FL

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Next to money greed and material things greed, some deer hunters are the greediest somebretches around. Some can't stand to be happy with what somebody else kills or how he legally killed it. We're in the good ole days of hunting now, they'll be memories soon due to greed.
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#508895 - 11/27/07 12:18 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: Radar]
HenryCohunter
4 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 387
Loc: Cottage Grove TN/Horn Lake MS

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We own a small 200+ acrea farm in henry county .. about 9 years ago we had a HUGE deer herd but no quality... you might see 20 deer in a day but if you saw a buck he was a basket rack 6 or 8 and you were pleased to see him.The people that own the land next to ours went on a killing spree right after they changed the limits on how many does you could kill to 3 a day.I was told they killed 80 deer that first year and 67 the next.we went for the next 3 years seeing very few deer at all .. we planted some food plots put out minerals for them all year... and managed to keep the deer on our place pretty healthy.Anyway the point of the story is that after the depletion of the deer herd we started seeing bigger deer.After a couple years we started seeing ALOT bigger deer.I talked my brother and the few people that hunted with us into passing on the 2 year old bucks with 15 inch spreads and give them 1 more year... some got killed by the people hunting around us im sure but enough didnt for us to see the difference.We have killed 4 in the last 3 years that have all scored over 140.One BRUTE that my brother killed last year that scored a whopping 159 and weighed close to 240 lbs.It took the almost total anhilation of our deer herd to bring about this change .. that and us being more careful with our herds health but it truly can pay off for you even if you have a small plot of land to mange what you kill.
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#510543 - 11/28/07 08:15 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.


I'll be the first to agree that most hunters become interested in QDM due to their desire to see and kill larger bucks than they have in the past. I did. I was tired of only seeing and killing yearling spikes and forkhorns. However, what I was attempting to produce was far below what most QDM advocates are pushing for these days. My original "dream" was to produce a herd where every hunter had a realistic chance of seeing and killing a 2 1/2+ year-old buck each year. We've accomplished that in spades.

But in addition, after seeing all of the other benefits of a QDM herd--intense rutting activity, massive increase in rubbing and scraping, huge increases in deer body weight, etc.--would I still practice QDM if the local bucks were limited to 100-110 gross? Absolutely! The other benefits really add up.


 Quote:
Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".


I absolutely agree with that, and that's why I keep saying QDM isn't for everybody and should not be enacted into law for everybody by the TWRA. If hunters want to practice QDM in Unit L and A, the current regulations allow them to do so. If they don't want to practice QDM, they don't have to. I like the fact the regulations allow for hunters to choose which type of hunting experience and management they want.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#510553 - 11/28/07 08:26 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BamaBoy N Sumner CO
so i guess my question is how do you get these thoughts to people in the senerios below

1. A guy that only hunts a handful of times a year
2. Public land hunters
3. Small acre owners
4. Youngsters just getting started in hunting.

those are the higher % hunters in TN (i would assume) so those are the people that would need to be reached for it to truely be successfull.


The answer is, you don't. QDM isn't for everyone. QDM would provide little benefit for the "couple of weekends per year" hunter, or the public land hunter. The public land hunter would need to hunt a WMA that is being specifically managed for older/larger bucks to see any benefit.

Now smaller land hunters can see some benefit, but to see a big difference they will need to either own the land or control the habitat (have the ability to modify the habitat).

The new hunter will see benefits IF they are learning to hunt on land that is already being managed.



 Quote:
again i dont think you have to reach out and drill QDM to people but more of common sense hunting if your goal is to upgrade the overall quality of deer on a given piece of property. This also includes the state and how they set up deer regulations each year. If regs are set to not allow you to accomplish the goal then what is the point of having the goal?


It all comes down to "what is possible" in a given area. Currently, the TWRA doesn' believe deer densities are high enough in areas designated Unit B to allow alternative forms of management beyond restoration management. Maybe this is true and maybe it isn't (and I suspect there are pockets of both in Unit B), but currently, Unit B hunters/managers are limited in what they can do.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#511622 - 11/28/07 10:23 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
J_W
4 Point


Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 333
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Fishboy you are right on and are bringing to light an opinion I have had for several years now.

For what it's worth, I almost completely agree with QDM and its principles, just not with many of the so-called participants. As has been brought up in this discussion, there are a great deal of folks on the QDM bandwagon that are in it only for big-racked bucks and don't really care for the good of the wildlife and habitat. This will never really change, and really cannot be managed. What is interesting to me, however, is that many, maybe even a majority, of legit QDM practicioners are in an elite minority in terms of ability to intensively manage their hunting area. For example, look at how many folks on this site own or lease land that solely for hunting on it. This land is not a source of income for them, and in many cases is actually a money pit. Many hunters in this segment are vastly removed from the reality of not just the average Joe hunter but even the middle tier that consists of serious, dedicated hunters without the same control over their hunting area. In my observations, those folks who are able to exercise complete control and practice true QDM on their area are in time doing more deer farming than they are deer hunting. Hunting becomes more about which mix to plant and whose shooting house is more elaborate than interpreting sign in the woods and setting up undetected. Obviously, I am not saying that all QDM guys are like this, just that it seems this becomes more and more the norm every year \:\(

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#511629 - 11/28/07 10:36 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: J_W]
J_W
4 Point


Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 333
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Forgot to add, my perspective is that of someone who was born and raised on a multi-generational working cattle and row-crop farm with mountain land traditionally relied on for firewood and lumber for farm use. The deer hunter in me wants to leave a field or a few rows of corn and beans uncut and sow the back pasture fields in winter wheat instead of the fescue and dallas grass that is now brown and dead, but the farmer in me knows that feeding the deer even more is not the way to pay the bills \:D
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#511794 - 11/29/07 07:26 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: J_W]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: J_W
For what it's worth, I almost completely agree with QDM and its principles, just not with many of the so-called participants. As has been brought up in this discussion, there are a great deal of folks on the QDM bandwagon that are in it only for big-racked bucks and don't really care for the good of the wildlife and habitat. This will never really change, and really cannot be managed.


I agree J_W. Many are on the "QDM bandwagon" due to their desire to kill big antlers. Now I'm not saying the desire to kill big antlered bucks is wrong. We all would like to kill a big antlered buck, and managing specifically for that goal is not wrong. But that is not the primary goal of QDM.



 Quote:
What is interesting to me, however, is that many, maybe even a majority, of legit QDM practicioners are in an elite minority in terms of ability to intensively manage their hunting area. For example, look at how many folks on this site own or lease land that solely for hunting on it. This land is not a source of income for them, and in many cases is actually a money pit. Many hunters in this segment are vastly removed from the reality of not just the average Joe hunter but even the middle tier that consists of serious, dedicated hunters without the same control over their hunting area.


Without question, deep pockets and ownership of your hunting land specifically owned for hunting will produce the best management results, no matter what form of management you are practicing. However, where do you draw the line on who is an "average Joe" hunter? Many hunters join in with other hunters to lease hunting land. None are breaking the bank to do so. Is paying $200-400 to be a part of a QDM lease take a hunter out of the "average Joe" picture? I don't think so. And by your argument about "making a living off the land," considering perhaps 1% of the US population still makes a living off the land, I guess not many people can be a true hunters/managers.


 Quote:
In my observations, those folks who are able to exercise complete control and practice true QDM on their area are in time doing more deer farming than they are deer hunting. Hunting becomes more about which mix to plant and whose shooting house is more elaborate than interpreting sign in the woods and setting up undetected. Obviously, I am not saying that all QDM guys are like this, just that it seems this becomes more and more the norm every year \:\(


I also agree this can be a problem. Too many specialized management practitioners think their results will be completely driven by their management efforts (dollars spent). As I've said many, many times, "growing older bucks is easy, but killing them is not." No matter what management practices you follow and how much you spend, old bucks will never be easy to see and kill. To be regularly successful in harvesting older bucks, it still comes down to hunting skill.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#512267 - 11/29/07 02:57 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5055
Loc: Mississippi

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A couple more points on QDM...

Even those who only get to hunt infrequently can benefit from a QDM program... I'm a prime example. I only get to hunt for a few days in ML, then a few days in gun season. In those few days, I'll typically see 15-25 different bucks, and usually average 2-3 individual bucks per hunt. That's what I enjoy the most. The only downside is that it is difficult to harvest enough does with limited time.

Another point, QDM does not have to be labor intensive or expensive to carry out. My land is approx 60% open and 40% timbered. I've never planted a food plot, nor do I have any need to... I can grow native browse on around 20% of the open ground serving as huge food plots simply by pulling the cattle off those areas, bushhogging in August, then allowing new growth for the deer to feed on all fall/winter. In spring when everything is greening back up, simply rotate the cattle back on to the ground that was rested and reserved for the deer. Works like a charm. It's also fairly easy to drill in clover into many of the designated hayfields, thereby providing additional high protein food sources for the deer.

The improved body weights are probably the most spectacular effect of a QDM program. There's nothing like killing a 200lb deer, especially when compared to the 100 lb yearling bucks.

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#512285 - 11/29/07 03:43 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: megalomaniac]
CPerkins
6 Point


Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 744
Loc: Collierville, TN

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Our lease has changed membership this year apparently and not everyone involved will pass up the bucks that we have tried to pass on in the past. I admitt I was tempted to take a few this year that were below the goal I had made for myself. I let them walk but it didn't feel as positive about it as I have in the past. I have made the point clear that if a buck gets shot it needs to go on the wall. If you shoot one just to cut the horns off and get some meat, they need to shoot a doe. If our new members want to shoot a good 2.5 year old buck and consider that a trophy I will be extremely happy for them when they get their buck. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I won't talk down to someone that shoots a buck I passed on just because it didn't my personal requirements for a "trophy".
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#512325 - 11/29/07 05:18 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: CPerkins]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Man, you must have a lot of deer megalomaniac! Even in our best years, we only see, on average, 1 buck per 8 hours of hunting time.

But I agree about food plots and the like. And that is my "beef" with the "new" definition of QDM the QDMA has developed. I've practiced and helped others practice QDM very successfully without ever altering anything but the deer that are being killed. No food plots, no habitat management, no nothing except passing up young bucks and shooting enough does to keep the herd density in line with the available habitat.

Now without question, habitat management is an amazingly powerful tool, and will make any QDM program MUCH more successful, but QDM can be accomplished with just a bow, MZ and/or rifle.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#512533 - 11/29/07 09:07 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5055
Loc: Mississippi

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BSK, the difference is that you cover 5 acres from a stand. I have one stand where 4 fields meet and can cover 120 acres from one stand. My personal preference is to see deer when hunting. A mature deer is icing on the cake, and I realize those mature deer just aren't going to step out in the open... except during the rut. But I'm willing to sacrifice an increased harvest of mature deer for the increased deer sightings.

When I hunt for mature deer in the thickets, most of the time I won't see a deer... and I can only do that once or twice before getting bored and move back out to cover more ground. \:\)

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#512686 - 11/30/07 06:38 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: megalomaniac]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Very good point megalomaniac. Heck, I'm not hunting near thick enough cover if I can see 1 acre of ground from my stand!
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#513169 - 12/01/07 05:56 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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A good QDM program is only as good as the available habitat . Not every tract is going to have the potential to produce multiple sightings of mature bucks . I am lucky if I see a handfull of mature bucks in a season .
It has nothing to do with hunting style .


Edited by Radar (12/01/07 05:58 AM)
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#514252 - 12/02/07 06:06 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: J_W]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: J_W
Forgot to add, my perspective is that of someone who was born and raised on a multi-generational working cattle and row-crop farm with mountain land traditionally relied on for firewood and lumber for farm use. The deer hunter in me wants to leave a field or a few rows of corn and beans uncut and sow the back pasture fields in winter wheat instead of the fescue and dallas grass that is now brown and dead, but the farmer in me knows that feeding the deer even more is not the way to pay the bills \:D


Leave some back pasture feild for winter wheat and oats then bale it. The bales can be sold or used for cattle forage the next winter.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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