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#489175 - 11/11/07 03:58 PM Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks
pass-thru
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......as long as you shoot plenty of does? I don't mean shoot all of them, but just a few here and there. Especially where deer densitites are high. Isn't fewer deer better, as long as the does are also harvested?

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#489199 - 11/11/07 04:53 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: pass-thru]
BSK
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In high densitiy deer herds, no, not much. It more comes down to how many total bucks survive the hunting season, and in high-density herds that can be quite a few.

But in low-density herds it can make a huge difference.
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#489346 - 11/11/07 07:02 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
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Registered: 12/17/02
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
In high densitiy deer herds, no, not much. It more comes down to how many total bucks survive the hunting season, and in high-density herds that can be quite a few.

But in low-density herds it can make a huge difference.


I hate to disagree with the man here,. but i do. In high deer density areas with a high hunter density ,.. the harvest of young bucks can be devastating. Especially in areas of small parcels with several different hunters on them. You tell yourself i'm only gonna shot 1. BUT,.. if 15 other hunters in the area say the same,. you have kiled the chances of producing those bucks into the next age class.

This is not so much a issue with QDM leases or someone with a large track,. but for private landowners ,.. it can set you back.

My opinion though,........
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#489373 - 11/11/07 07:16 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: deerchaser007]
Chris Tripp
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Registered: 10/20/05
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Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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Jeremy, I agree with you mostly here... but will add, that with natural mortality, chances are the same deer are liable to die naturally....
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#489835 - 11/12/07 06:48 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: ]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: tndrbstr
What about if my main goal is to incease the overall deer density on my place? A buck, what ever the size, in the freezer is better than a doe isn't it?


For herd health, no.

If you are trying to increase herd density, creation and distribution of food and cover resources are more important than how many deer you harvest. In essence, make your property the best habitat in the area and your herd density will increase no matter how many deer you harvest.
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#489840 - 11/12/07 06:56 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: BSK
In high densitiy deer herds, no, not much. It more comes down to how many total bucks survive the hunting season, and in high-density herds that can be quite a few.

But in low-density herds it can make a huge difference.


I hate to disagree with the man here,. but i do. In high deer density areas with a high hunter density ,.. the harvest of young bucks can be devastating. Especially in areas of small parcels with several different hunters on them. You tell yourself i'm only gonna shot 1. BUT,.. if 15 other hunters in the area say the same,. you have kiled the chances of producing those bucks into the next age class.

This is not so much a issue with QDM leases or someone with a large track,. but for private landowners ,.. it can set you back.

My opinion though,........


But that still comes down to total harvest of bucks (what percent of the buck population is harvested). If hunters kill primarily young bucks, but only 30% of the entire pre-hunt buck population is harvested, the buck age structure still increases (most of the 70% not harvested survives and increases in age).

But what can occur in high density herds AND high density hunters is too high of a harvest of total bucks and an underharvest of does, leading to a skewed sex ratio and lower number of total bucks pre-hunt, i.e. you can have 50 bucks and 50 does in a population of 100 adult deer (1:1 ratio) or you can have 33 bucks and 67 does in a population of 100 adult deer pre-hunt (2:1 ratio). Now harvest 20 bucks out of each herd each year and you'll see a big difference between the two herds in a few years.
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#490268 - 11/12/07 12:55 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: BSK]
Greg .
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I have to contend with exactly what deerchaser007 described -- small parcels with several/many different hunters on them (high hunter density), high deer density areas and a devastating harvest of young bucks. For example, there is a 50 acre cutover not far from me ... Saturday my buddy saw SIX trucks parked there!! If it weren't for numerous 2, 5, and 10 acre tracts around with no hunting, they'd do even more damage.

Every year, I let yearling bucks walk (this year it's been at least 5 different ones at least a couple times each). Right now, the deer seem to have all but disappeared. Saturday I saw NOTHING and this morning my son and I saw one fawn. I'm guessing they're breeding in the thickets -- and the yearling bucks are probably breeding, too, since I don't believe we have many older bucks (see above). When it's over, I'm wondering if the yearlings will still be around, or if they're already in somebody's freezer.

So, I'm waiting to see if the yearling bucks are breeding ... or dead. In either case, it is evident that our age structure for bucks is POOR.
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#490387 - 11/12/07 02:50 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Greg .]
pass-thru
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Thanks for your input BSK. My point in raising the issue is NOT to advocate harvesting young bucks. My point is to show that the importance is in keeping up with the harvest of does in areas where the densities are too high, which these days seems to me most of the place.

And also I think too many hunters are too conservative in their antlerless harvest for fear of shooting a button. Usually you can tell through a scope, sometitmes not, but it seems like too many programs are punishing hunters for accidentally shooting a button or a spike.

Anyway, food for thought.

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#490399 - 11/12/07 03:16 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: pass-thru]
Greg .
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Registered: 08/24/04
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 Originally Posted By: pass-thru
And also I think too many hunters are too conservative in their antlerless harvest for fear of shooting a button. Usually you can tell through a scope, sometitmes not, but it seems like too many programs are punishing hunters for accidentally shooting a button or a spike.

Anyway, food for thought.

I agree. I think if the hunter was as careful as they reasonably could be and accidentally kills a button every once in a while ... well, that's life. Fawns have a high mortality rate anyway, so it's probably not so bad.

I think "I only shoot bucks" hunters need to get with the times.
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#490903 - 11/12/07 08:36 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Greg .]
Football Hunter
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only shoot the biggest in a group of does,that is rarely a button.Does by themselves are sometimes hard to judge,wait till there is more than one.
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#491093 - 11/12/07 09:55 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Football Hunter]
pass-thru
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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
only shoot the biggest in a group of does,that is rarely a button.Does by themselves are sometimes hard to judge,wait till there is more than one.


Probably 50% of the does I shoot are alone......so if I played by that rule my doe harvest would be cut in half.

I bring this topic up not only for the doe/button issue. I think there is generally too much critism of newer hunters for shooting small antlered bucks. One of the most exciting events of my life was the first four point I shot with my bow. I won't critize what somebody else kills. That said, if you got to shoot the does too. As long as the harvest is balanced the herd should be good.

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#491281 - 11/13/07 06:04 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: pass-thru]
Mike Belt
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Registered: 03/26/99
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Alot of hunters are excitable to the point at seeing a deer they immediately shoot. Given the time it helps to observe if you can. This alone will eliminate some mistakes. It gives you time to check out body features and actions that are sometimes dead giveaways for determining exactly what you're looking at.
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#491299 - 11/13/07 06:21 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Greg .]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Greg .
 Originally Posted By: pass-thru
And also I think too many hunters are too conservative in their antlerless harvest for fear of shooting a button. Usually you can tell through a scope, sometitmes not, but it seems like too many programs are punishing hunters for accidentally shooting a button or a spike.

Anyway, food for thought.

I agree. I think if the hunter was as careful as they reasonably could be and accidentally kills a button every once in a while ... well, that's life. Fawns have a high mortality rate anyway, so it's probably not so bad.



Exactly. I hate to see clubs/leases penalize hunters for shooting button bucks, as this tends to reduce doe harvests. If you take doe harvests seriously, you will accidentally kill some button bucks. But as long as you keep your button buck harvest down around 10-15% of all antlerless deer, you're doing fine.
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#492076 - 11/13/07 04:44 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
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Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4256
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: BSK
In high densitiy deer herds, no, not much. It more comes down to how many total bucks survive the hunting season, and in high-density herds that can be quite a few.

But in low-density herds it can make a huge difference.


I hate to disagree with the man here,. but i do. In high deer density areas with a high hunter density ,.. the harvest of young bucks can be devastating. Especially in areas of small parcels with several different hunters on them. You tell yourself i'm only gonna shot 1. BUT,.. if 15 other hunters in the area say the same,. you have kiled the chances of producing those bucks into the next age class.

This is not so much a issue with QDM leases or someone with a large track,. but for private landowners ,.. it can set you back.

My opinion though,........


But that still comes down to total harvest of bucks (what percent of the buck population is harvested). If hunters kill primarily young bucks, but only 30% of the entire pre-hunt buck population is harvested, the buck age structure still increases (most of the 70% not harvested survives and increases in age).

But what can occur in high density herds AND high density hunters is too high of a harvest of total bucks and an underharvest of does, leading to a skewed sex ratio and lower number of total bucks pre-hunt, i.e. you can have 50 bucks and 50 does in a population of 100 adult deer (1:1 ratio) or you can have 33 bucks and 67 does in a population of 100 adult deer pre-hunt (2:1 ratio). Now harvest 20 bucks out of each herd each year and you'll see a big difference between the two herds in a few years.


I agree with what your saying. BUT,. what i'm getting at is you can take a 640 acre spot(1 square mile)(unhunted for 5 years) ,.. break it up into 8 parcels(80 acres each),..put 2 hunters on each parcel(16 hunters) ,.. then you have a estimated herd size of 30 deer per square mile. Allow them hunters 2 bucks each. 10 of them hunters kill a 1.5 year old buck within the first week. 3 killed bucks 2.5 and older. The other 3 were unsuccessful. This 1 hunting season has set those 16 hunters back at least 3 years from a good quality herd for a qdm program. Especially since no does were harversted. Its this kinda harvest on 1.5 year old bucks that set the herd back for that area. AND,. i don't agree with it. BUT,. also know there is nothing to be done.
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#492170 - 11/13/07 06:00 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: deerchaser007]
fishboy1
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007,
In theory you are correct. In reality, there might be several different herds rotating through that 1 mile block at any given time. So they might have killed the 13 bucks out of several different groups.
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#492349 - 11/13/07 08:12 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bucks [Re: fishboy1]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4256
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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fishboy,.. its not theory for some. It actually happens in some areas. Most just choose to not see it.

In reality,.. yep,. you could have killed deer off another neighboring square mile block,.. but who is to say hunters and herd densities are not the same on them as they are your 1 square mile block??

What i'm getting at with the asked question is ,.. you can harvest a 1.5 year old buck. QDM does not support ,.. and i believe that is for a reason. On a big lease,... you can harvest one,. eventually other lease members are gonna do the same. If you are in a co-op with nieghbors ,.. you can harvest one ,.. but eventually so will your neighbors. You can do it on your own personal property or private lease,. and it only affects you and your little herd. So in my opinion,.. a true QDM supporter would never shoota 1.5 year old buck for any reason. Unless it was on property not managed for qdm!!
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#492556 - 11/13/07 09:20 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Greg .]
DEER HUNTER 76
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I wont shot a buck unless hes goin on the wall bt thats jus me
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#492620 - 11/13/07 09:42 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: DEER HUNTER 76]
pass-thru
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Posts: 3549
Loc: va beach

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deerchaser007.....your missing the whole point of the discussion. It's not whether or not to shoot young bucks. It's whether that negatively impacts the herd IF DOES ARE ALSO HARVESTED. In all of your scenarios, you only talk about the killing of young bucks.
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#492819 - 11/14/07 06:40 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: pass-thru]
BSK
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deerchaser007,

In your scenario you have 30 deer per square mile yet the hunters kill 13 bucks. In a "perfectly balanced" herd at 30 deer per square mile there would only be 10 bucks, 10 does, and 10 fawns per square mile.

In addition, I would never call 30 deer per square mile a "high density deer herd." 60 deer per square mile might be called a high density deer herd. Then consider that at least double that number of deer cross each square mile and you have 120 deer using that square mile of land. If the herd is in great shape (1.5 does per buck and 80% fawn recruitement) that gives you at least 32 bucks, 49 does and 39 fawns crossing the property. 13 bucks killed from 32 bucks is only 41% of the available bucks. If at least half the bucks are surviving from year to year, that's pretty good and buck age structures will advance.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#493961 - 11/14/07 08:25 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Greg .]
Boone 58
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I really feel the need to let the younger ones walk. We have been doing this for 5.5 seasons now and we are starting to see really good benefits from it. My cameras and others are picking up 5 6 and more bucks quiet frequently and i am impressed with the quality of the 2.5 and 3.5 and better age classes. Most folks never see a 4.5 to 7.5 age buck in the state of tennessee because they never quit shooting 6 month to 1.5 year old class deer and if that is what they want i am fine with that. However i usually see 20 to 30+ bucks per season that i pass on as well as others and am confident this is paying great dividends. I have not failed to shoot a decent 8 pt or better buck in the last 7 seasons. In fact now i have opportunities to kill as many as 2 to 3 of these such animals including an opportunity to harvest two quality bucks 8pt or better but of course passing on the second for both rules as well as if i kill a buck then the next one must top it....
It is great to be hunting in this state now more than ever.
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#494373 - 11/15/07 07:03 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Boone 58]
BSK
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Without question it pays dividends Camoman270, and I highly promote passing young bucks, especially on private land management programs.

But when we start talking about entire regions of the state, areas like Unit L are going to see improved buck age structures whether hunters kill young bucks or not. Hunters in Unit L are killing so few total bucks each year that the majority of living bucks pre-hunt survive the season, meaning most will survive to the following season and be a year older.

We probbly have somewhere near 220,000 adult bucks in the prehunt population in TN, yet hunters are only killing around 90,000 of those bucks. That leaves 130,000 that aren't killed by legal hunters. Now the big question is, how many of the 130,000 remaining bucks live until the next season? Nobody knows the answer to that question but I bet it is somewhere around 80-90%, meaning at least 100,000 survive.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#495266 - 11/15/07 06:45 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: pass-thru]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4256
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 Originally Posted By: pass-thru
deerchaser007.....your missing the whole point of the discussion. It's not whether or not to shoot young bucks. It's whether that negatively impacts the herd IF DOES ARE ALSO HARVESTED. In all of your scenarios, you only talk about the killing of young bucks.


Your right,.. i got off topic. SORRY!!!
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#495286 - 11/15/07 06:54 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4256
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
deerchaser007,

In your scenario you have 30 deer per square mile yet the hunters kill 13 bucks. In a "perfectly balanced" herd at 30 deer per square mile there would only be 10 bucks, 10 does, and 10 fawns per square mile.

In addition, I would never call 30 deer per square mile a "high density deer herd." 60 deer per square mile might be called a high density deer herd. Then consider that at least double that number of deer cross each square mile and you have 120 deer using that square mile of land. If the herd is in great shape (1.5 does per buck and 80% fawn recruitement) that gives you at least 32 bucks, 49 does and 39 fawns crossing the property. 13 bucks killed from 32 bucks is only 41% of the available bucks. If at least half the bucks are surviving from year to year, that's pretty good and buck age structures will advance.


YEP,.. 3 of the hunters harvested deer from another square mile. Or,.. maybe more of the hunters got bucks from another square mile. And at 10 per square mile ,.. thats 20 for 2 sq. mile. Look at the number of bucks eliminated in this scenerio. My scenerio would come from a high deer density in TN. 30 per square mile is slightly above average for a TN county. In your scenerio of 60 per square mile,. its not so bad,. but for a average TN county,. its terible.

I'm sorry i did get off topic though,.. but it was just a good spot to show how the overharvest of bucks can easily happen in a average TN county in a square mile. Making it impossible to implement any kind of QDM program around it.

SORRY GUYS......
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#495311 - 11/15/07 07:10 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: Greg .]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



Once you kill a buck he has no chance of getting any bigger. Leave them be if you want to manage for quality bucks IMO. I look at them like they have rabies or if I shoot one I am going to hell. Doesn't even tempt me or cross my mind. Does on the other hand are not so lucky on occasion.
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#495678 - 11/15/07 10:42 PM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: ]
TAS
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Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
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 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
or if I shoot one I am going to hell.


LOL
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#495788 - 11/16/07 06:01 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: TAS]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: TAS
 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
or if I shoot one I am going to hell.


LOL

Going anyway. \:D

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#495839 - 11/16/07 07:04 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: ]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
 Originally Posted By: TAS
 Originally Posted By: lostsoul
or if I shoot one I am going to hell.


LOL

Going anyway. \:D


I'll save you a place by the fire. ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#495841 - 11/16/07 07:08 AM Re: Does it really matter if you shoot year old bu [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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deerchaser007,

Without question, shooting young bucks doesn't HELP. But the higher the deer density, the less it hurts. Again, in many parts of Unit L, buck age structures have dramatically improved as the herd density has increased, even though the buck harvest numbers have stayed the same from year to year. A smaller percentage of the buck population is killed each year, allowing more to advance in age.

Now for areas with high hunter densities, even with a "decent" deer density of 30 deer per square mile, the high hunter density can still produce a "Traditional Management" type harvest of 80% of the pre-hunt buck population. You aren't going to see any improvements in buck age structure under that scenario.
_________________________
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