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#486917 - 11/09/07 04:53 PM BSK
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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BSK,... This is from the management topic of boonerbucks off of serious deer talk from yesterday. I think it got lost on the 2nd page,.. but would like your opinion concerning my situation.
In my process over the past 6 years on my 85 acres i've went thru every aspect of growing into my management program. Using trail cameras, i've monitored my progress. Started out with just ole hardwoods habitat with little plots. At that time,. i got a good mix year round of does and bucks pictured. About 3 years ago i started seeing this transitition your speaking of(more does). Whats got me puzzled is the past 2 years i'm capturing more pics of bucks during the summer, and less pics of bucks during the winter. Very few pics of does during the summer, but ALOT of does during the winter. Hunting observations are the same. 5 years ago all we would see while hunting would be bucks(mostly 1.5 and 2.5), with a few does. Now,.. its all does with a few bucks being observed during our hunting.
The habitat in our area is better as a whole. Not only did i select cut my 85 acres, the neighbor select cut his hollers on his 250 acres and another property took cows off the land which provided more habitat in the woods and in the fields. SO,. we all have better habitat. Myself and another guy across the road have the bulk in food plots though.
So with that being said,.. why am i seeing more bucks during the summer and less during the winter?? Why are the bucks leaving my property and going to the others ,. but i'm not catching any new bucks on camera that shifted their range to my place??
Any information will be appreciated!! THANKS
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#486959 - 11/09/07 05:42 PM Re: BSK [Re: deerchaser007]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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Great question. I have almost the same scenario. I believe my habitat is better than surrounding properties.(I know I work harder at it than the neighbors). It would seem I would have more does during the summer fawning season than bucks due to great cover and food sources. Not the case. Buck pictures this summer outweighed does 3:1. Now I can't buy a buck picture much less see one outside a yearling.
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#487431 - 11/10/07 05:07 AM Re: BSK [Re: kholmes]
richmanbarbeque
16 Point


Registered: 07/17/03
Posts: 12781
Loc: Middle, Tn

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Very good question and topic.
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#487631 - 11/10/07 10:19 AM Re: BSK [Re: richmanbarbeque]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5055
Loc: Mississippi

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Unfortunately, there are just some properties for whatever reason are just not used as much by deer during different parts of the year. You're doing the right things to maximize your chances at a good buck, but that still doesn't mean they'll filter off every property within a mile to yours.

I myself own a 150 acre farm that is similar. Deer all over the place on it during the summer and early fall, but the majority of the bucks shift off it in late September/early October. Very frustrating.

Interestingly, the turkeys do just the opposite. They cover up the farm in the fall/winter, but shift off the farm in late March. Just kills me, but fortunately, I've got some other places to hunt.

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#487653 - 11/10/07 10:47 AM Re: BSK [Re: megalomaniac]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16919
Loc: Allardt, TN

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I would like to hear more on this also. On our 342 acre place here is Fentress we have just a very few does during the spring and summer. When bow season hits we get alot of does and at best one little yearling buck. When November hits, we get LOADED with deer. We go from one yearling buck to usually around 6-8 bucks that stay on the property all through winter.
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#487870 - 11/10/07 03:16 PM Re: BSK [Re: smstone22]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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I am interested in BSK's answer on this as well...my 120 acr. did the same thing this year...I had mostly bucks durring Spring and Summer, then all of a sudden they were gone and now I'm all does and one spike...
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"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#487872 - 11/10/07 03:19 PM Re: BSK [Re: Stalker]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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What can we do, if anything, to reverse this? Or level it off?
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"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#488116 - 11/10/07 06:27 PM Re: BSK [Re: Stalker]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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I didn't bowhunt our farm this year to try to improve buck sightings. Maybe they are there and just to smart to walk in front of a camera.
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A vote is like a rifle: Its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
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#488196 - 11/10/07 07:19 PM Re: BSK [Re: megalomaniac]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
Unfortunately, there are just some properties for whatever reason are just not used as much by deer during different parts of the year. You're doing the right things to maximize your chances at a good buck, but that still doesn't mean they'll filter off every property within a mile to yours.

I myself own a 150 acre farm that is similar. Deer all over the place on it during the summer and early fall, but the majority of the bucks shift off it in late September/early October. Very frustrating.

Interestingly, the turkeys do just the opposite. They cover up the farm in the fall/winter, but shift off the farm in late March. Just kills me, but fortunately, I've got some other places to hunt.


Seasonal shift is not a issue. I captured on a regular basis this summer a 17 inch wide 3.5 year old 8 point,.. he was kiled by one of the guys across the road during late archery. Less than a 1/4 mile. I also captured a 19 inch wide 8 point i thought was 4.5 ,.. but turned out 3.5 by jawbone. He was killed this sunday of muzzleloader by one of my nieghbors ,.. again less than 1/4 mile. I never captured these bucks out of velvet ,. but did catch one of my 2.5 years old from summer stil using my place. Only 1 pic 2 weeks ago. No new bucks come in,.. but so many does and little ones i can't even count.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#488202 - 11/10/07 07:22 PM Re: BSK [Re: kholmes]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: kholmes
I didn't bowhunt our farm this year to try to improve buck sightings. Maybe they are there and just to smart to walk in front of a camera.


I move my cameras constantly,.. from fence crossings,to plots, to heavy trails, to thicket edges. Yep ,.. i'll miss some i know,. but i should be capturing some buck pics. Besides the 1.5 year olds!!

I shouldn't have bowhunted mine,. waste of time. Never saw the first deer.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#488230 - 11/10/07 07:33 PM Re: BSK [Re: Stalker]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: Stalker
What can we do, if anything, to reverse this? Or level it off?


WELL,.. from the other post on here i see i'm not alone in my situation,.. maybe BSK or someone else will help us out. Cause i'm clueless at this point to know how to correct it ,. or even level it back out. BUT,. as much as i love QDM,.. i will stop practicing it on my place if this trend does not change. On my particular farm ,.. we were killing better bucks before i started all this!! And for sure seing alot more bucks during hunting season. I'm beginning to wonder if a person can go to far with his management plan,.. and hender his hunting.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#488308 - 11/10/07 08:01 PM Re: BSK [Re: deerchaser007]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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These bucks were regulars all summer. I have tons of pictures of them.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]


[img][/img]


[img][/img]




This is the best buck picture since Mid-Sept.



[img][/img]




My trade off is not so good. I knew I would loose these deer with seasonal shift. I just figured I would get a couple of 3.5
year olds to take their place. Who knows maybe the rut in a couple of weeks will get em in the open.
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A vote is like a rifle: Its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
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#488345 - 11/10/07 08:17 PM Re: BSK [Re: kholmes]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Both of these have been harvested less than a 1/4 mile!!

_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#488777 - 11/11/07 07:40 AM Re: BSK [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Very interesting question deerchaser007. Unfortunately, I know of no "documented" situation like yours. If the property has a lot of does in summer, but no bucks until the rut, that's an easy (and common) one. But bucks in summer that are gone in fall/winter while becoming loaded with does is a tough one. I'll have to ask around with other managers and see if anyone has encountered this problem and what they did about it.

But also remember that this year has been a very, VERY wierd year. Nothing is matching the "normal" patterns. I still can't figure out exactly what is happening this year.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#488818 - 11/11/07 08:37 AM Re: BSK [Re: BSK]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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sounds like your bucks have a dumbbell range... over the years we have reversed our patterns by decreasing sanctuary in some areas while increasing sanctuary in others, along with closing off certain natural travel routes that leave the property.
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#488820 - 11/11/07 08:38 AM Re: BSK [Re: Chris Tripp]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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I believe we will see the rut around Nov.15-17
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#488858 - 11/11/07 09:08 AM Re: BSK [Re: Chris Tripp]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Thanks BSK. If you find out ANY info,.. please share with me. This is the 2nd year this has happened. And its very disappointing. I really don't want a third if you know what i mean.

Thanks Chris also. That makes since. The past 3 years we have left the same areas no enter areas on my 85 acres. Due to high hunting pressure around me ,.. i actually set aside about 35 acres of the 85 acres in sancuary. We don't even enter the right side of the property cause its the thickest best cover and provides the best habitat for the winter. The long ridge with the saddle has always been the best deer movement area ,.. and we keep the bottom cedar thicket closed off. Hoping for them to travel thru and feel safe entering and leaving,. but make a mistake during the entering and leaving. We may have to open up some of that right side and start hunting it again.

Appreciate it guys...
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#488900 - 11/11/07 09:59 AM Re: BSK [Re: deerchaser007]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Thanks, BSK and Chris Tripp...

BSK, if you find any info will you please post it. I've got the same troubles...I do not know where all these does are coming from or where all the good bucks I had on trail cam went but it is driving me crazy.

We also, leave sanctuary areas that we do not hunt, if something does not change we may have to start hunting them as well.
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#488935 - 11/11/07 10:31 AM Re: BSK [Re: Stalker]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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This is a great discussion. I feel that as more small land owners implement a QDM program they will feel these same growing pains we are experiencing right now.
Thanks BSK and Chris. I have had the same sanctuaries for 5 years maybe it is time for a change.
kh
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#489244 - 11/11/07 05:51 PM Re: BSK [Re: kholmes]
Crosshairy
10 Point


Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2663
Loc: Bartlett, TN

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do you guys use trail cams in your sanctuary areas?
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#489307 - 11/11/07 06:35 PM Re: BSK [Re: Crosshairy]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: Crosshairy
do you guys use trail cams in your sanctuary areas?


NO,.. you do not enter these areas except to retreive a animal. I put the cams on active trails in and out.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#489313 - 11/11/07 06:38 PM Re: BSK [Re: Crosshairy]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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sort of yes....
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#489471 - 11/11/07 08:00 PM Re: BSK [Re: Chris Tripp]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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To add to my last post... I post trail cameras just inside trails that skirt the sanctuary
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#489841 - 11/12/07 06:57 AM Re: BSK [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: Crosshairy
do you guys use trail cams in your sanctuary areas?


NO,.. you do not enter these areas except to retreive a animal. I put the cams on active trails in and out.


Ditto.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#491136 - 11/12/07 10:12 PM Re: BSK [Re: deerchaser007]
pass-thru
10 Point


Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 3611
Loc: va beach

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Your observations are not unique, I think the explanation could be fairly simple. I have noticed similar phenmenon when I lived in KY. Every night in summer I would watch anywhere from 3-15 bucks hit ag fields of clover or alfalfa. Rarely more than 1 or two does. The number of bucks dwindle as velvet shed. As fawns grew, more does would should up.

You mentioned improving your habitat with food plots and select cut. You probably have the best food in the area, which attracts the bucks in summer. In summer bucks are more tolerant of each other. As summer fades to fall, that tolerance diminishes, and bucks are unwilling to maintain the same level of testosterone in the same general area....they move on.

Conversly, does with young fawns are protective, they keep them secluded and then slowly socialize them. If you have a high density of bucks in the summer, the does are reluctant to mingle. As the fawns grow and they are slowly socialized, eventually this inhibition disappeares. And of course by fall there is no longer the same density of bucks hitting your food sources, which creates more room for the does.

In short, your observing the interplay of food sources attracting deer and the balancing effect of the social structure of the herd.

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