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#454404 - 10/17/07 07:59 PM when bucks go missing..
deerchaser007
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For those of you that get quality whitetails magazine,.. this is a must read. One of the most informative articles i've ever read on mature buck movement from late summer til winter.

Also,.. check out page 49. Were is the bucks ear.....??
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#454497 - 10/17/07 08:21 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: deerchaser007]
Chris Tripp
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yes it was a great read! My only wish is that they did a study in a region like ours and published the findings.... still very informative on northern deer.
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#454610 - 10/17/07 08:45 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: Chris Tripp]
ghosthunter
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gonna have to go and get that.
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#454742 - 10/17/07 09:25 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: ghosthunter]
BSK
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Those are some of the researchers I've been working with on my "seasonal shifts" theories.
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#455042 - 10/17/07 11:04 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
smstone22
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great stuff. I see alot of seasonal shift on one of our leases.
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#455114 - 10/18/07 05:07 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: smstone22]
BSK
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I can't wait to see the final data from the Auburn GPS-collar study. They are specifically looking at the rut ranges of older bucks from one year to the next. Last number I heard was the average amount of overlap between rut ranges for a single buck from one year to the next is only around 30%, meaning individual bucks don't have much fidelity to the same rutting areas from year to year.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

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#455376 - 10/18/07 09:23 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
DeerSlayer
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That seems like a good thing to me. We have years where we have more large deer sightings than others. If I thought we were stuck with the same set of smaller bucks year to year, it wouldn't be very exciting.

However, I can think of one thing. If these bucks move from one year to the next, does it really make sense not to harvest a deer because of the size of its antlers? It seems like if you let it go in hopes of seeing it next year, you are possibly wasting your time.

Of course, you did say these were "rut ranges" so I guess it doesn't apply necessarily to deer during non-rut times of the hunting season.
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#455433 - 10/18/07 09:57 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: DeerSlayer]
BSK
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DeerSlayer,

Some of these studies do bring into question some aspects of small-land management. And I hate to say it, but my research backs that up. Of the harvestable, manageable bucks on your property during the entire hunting season, a large percentage may not be year-round residents of your property. In fact, during the peak of the rut, it isn't uncommon for more than half of the bucks that are harvestable bucks on the property to not be "residents."

But then the hunter will never really know. Maybe the buck is a resident and maybe he isn't, and passing him may provide you no direct future benefit and maybe it will. I simply prefer to do what I always do and error on the side of caution. Besides, if I don't want to kill that buck, why would I care if he is a resident or not? I simply don't want to kill him.

But I do believe the concept of "letting him walk so you can kill him next year" is questionable. Sometimes it will work. Many times it will not. But as more and more people pass young bucks, everybody in the area benefits.
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#455538 - 10/18/07 10:59 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
smstone22
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So I dont have a good chance of seeing the big 9 i tried to kill last year during November and early december, dang lol I bet hes a 150 now.
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#455561 - 10/18/07 11:12 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: smstone22]
dr
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BSK, I understand that bucks can be very unpredictable. But I have also read of hunters killing a big buck that they have hunted, 2 or 3 seasons in a row, in the same area. I still believe some mature bucks like to spend most of their life in a relatively small area if they feel secure.
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#455588 - 10/18/07 11:35 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: ghosthunter]
Chris Tripp
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 Originally Posted By: ghosthunter
gonna have to go and get that.


Join QDMA and request the October issue.

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#455655 - 10/18/07 12:26 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: dr]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: dr
BSK, I understand that bucks can be very unpredictable. But I have also read of hunters killing a big buck that they have hunted, 2 or 3 seasons in a row, in the same area. I still believe some mature bucks like to spend most of their life in a relatively small area if they feel secure.


Without question, some bucks "stay home" and can be seen/trail-cam photographed year after year. But it is interesting to see how many bucks just "show up" on a property, stay for that season (or just the peak of the rut) and simply disappear, never to be seen again. Now a few actually "just show up" ever year, year after year, and are not a resident, but can be counted on to "be back next year." But to be honest, the percent of "regulars and repeaters" may be under 50% of the bucks using the property in any given year (and I'm talking square mile or less properties).

Now the question is, does this knowledge change my views on the best management practices? Not one iota. I still recommend passing up all bucks below the target age, and harvesting any bucks that meet the age requirement. But to see a particular buck and decide to pass him assuming he will be around next year is an iffy proposition.
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#455737 - 10/18/07 01:01 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
Chris Tripp
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agreed

 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: dr
BSK, I understand that bucks can be very unpredictable. But I have also read of hunters killing a big buck that they have hunted, 2 or 3 seasons in a row, in the same area. I still believe some mature bucks like to spend most of their life in a relatively small area if they feel secure.


Without question, some bucks "stay home" and can be seen/trail-cam photographed year after year. But it is interesting to see how many bucks just "show up" on a property, stay for that season (or just the peak of the rut) and simply disappear, never to be seen again. Now a few actually "just show up" ever year, year after year, and are not a resident, but can be counted on to "be back next year." But to be honest, the percent of "regulars and repeaters" may be under 50% of the bucks using the property in any given year (and I'm talking square mile or less properties).

Now the question is, does this knowledge change my views on the best management practices? Not one iota. I still recommend passing up all bucks below the target age, and harvesting any bucks that meet the age requirement. But to see a particular buck and decide to pass him assuming he will be around next year is an iffy proposition.

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#455880 - 10/18/07 02:27 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: Chris Tripp]
DeerSlayer
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Same here. The knowledge that they deer may not ever come back around will not affect my hunting. I have passed on quite a number of small bucks and will continue to do so. I don't have the lust to just have to kill something bad enough to shoot the small ones.
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#455896 - 10/18/07 02:35 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: DeerSlayer]
BSK
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If I've made a decision not to shoot a particular buck, it is because he doesn't meet my personal requirments as a shooter. I really don't care what happens to him after that. If my neighbor shoots him, then good for my neighbor and I hope he enjoyed the experience. I've never passed a buck because he wasn't big enough, only because he wasn't old enough. Maybe I'll see that buck next year and maybe I won't. And if I don't, then perhaps I'll see a buck old enough that someone else passed up last year.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

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#456300 - 10/18/07 07:02 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
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Seriously ,.. whats up with the missing ear on the buck on page 49. Printing error?? Photoshop?? injury maybe?? I've never seen a deer with a missing ear bfore.....
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#456370 - 10/18/07 07:28 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: deerchaser007]
TAS
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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
Seriously ,.. whats up with the missing ear on the buck on page 49. Printing error?? Photoshop?? injury maybe?? I've never seen a deer with a missing ear bfore.....


\:D LOL, I don't know.... dog maybe?? My dad use to shoot the ears of deer that hung out in the fields close to roads with a 22-250. He said piercing their ears would smarten them up so road hunters wouldn't get em.
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#456506 - 10/18/07 08:20 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: Chris Tripp]
ghosthunter
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 Originally Posted By: Chris Tripp
 Originally Posted By: ghosthunter
gonna have to go and get that.


Join QDMA and request the October issue.
Guess that explains why they didn't have it on the shelf at Books A Million.
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#456582 - 10/18/07 08:40 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: ghosthunter]
Chris Tripp
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You can join now for $30 dollars a year... or PM me, I can refer you for a discount.
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#458499 - 10/19/07 10:57 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: Chris Tripp]
doublelung
TnDeer Old Timer
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Kinda like catching a big bass in a certain spot in a lake,river or pond and then coming back a year later and catching another one in the same spot. I think big bucks are the same way, if they have everything they need food,water,cover,females and seclusion there will always be a big buck trying to use that area year in and year out.
Good info in the above post.

my 2 cents

DL

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#459407 - 10/21/07 10:08 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
AlabamaSwamper
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
I can't wait to see the final data from the Auburn GPS-collar study. They are specifically looking at the rut ranges of older bucks from one year to the next. Last number I heard was the average amount of overlap between rut ranges for a single buck from one year to the next is only around 30%, meaning individual bucks don't have much fidelity to the same rutting areas from year to year.


BSK,

TO what extent would a individual property affect these "shifts"?

I guess my main question is Auburn doing studies on several properties over several years or just one property over several years?

Is it possible say...for my property to be different than your's for example? Like...in the way or amount your bucks change ranges?

Would the local food, cover, pressure, herd health, buck:doe ratios be factors in this and if so, would every property not be different?

Or, is it just plain ol nature and deer are gonna do this regardless of where they are?
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#462436 - 10/23/07 07:51 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
BSK
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I don't know all of the details of the study design, but from what I've seen of rut-season trail camera data from numerous properties, I think this is normal for the deer world. It's simply amazing how often a particular buck uses a particular property during the rut one year, but never again. Or maybe he skips a year and shows up again the third year. Those types of patterns appear to be the norm rather than the exception for bucks that do shift areas during the rut. Not all do.

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#462485 - 10/23/07 08:20 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
AlabamaSwamper
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BSK,

The rut is weird. LOL

I've always wondered, as bucks chase does during that "peak" that as they breed a doe, then they may hit another one that takes him 1/2 mile one way, then he breeds her a day or two later and hits another one which carries him 1/2 mile farther and so on.

THe next year he may hit one at home that takes him the opposite direction and the scenerio repeats again, however, taking him 3 miles the other direction. Then returning home once the estrus does run out.

This being the reason for a "random" shift of areas more than a consistent shift.
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#462576 - 10/23/07 09:13 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
BSK
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I think the patterns will be more apparent when the full data is released.
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#462660 - 10/23/07 10:16 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
TAKE A CHANCE
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Assuming I wasn't married to my awesome wife....

Just think how far I would chase a lady in rut!!!!! LOL
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#462877 - 10/23/07 12:30 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAKE A CHANCE]
BSK
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AS,

I think the data will show that it is far more than just bucks chasing does long distance. It will show complete shifts of range for the rut, and those ranges won't overlap much from year to year.
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#462905 - 10/23/07 01:01 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
AlabamaSwamper
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Would these be shifts before the actual rut begins. I'm guessing they will be shifting now and staying in that area until the rut is over or do they wait until the rut begins to peak?

Reckon they are like us? lol

We started out at one place like the mall. The next year it was the strip. The next we were at bars and so on. lol

Just being funny I guess. These animals are fascinating creatures to say the least.


Edited by AlabamaSwamper (10/23/07 01:03 PM)
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#462933 - 10/23/07 01:13 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
TAS
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"These animals are fascinating creatures to say the least."

Ain't that the truth. Do you think the whole shifting while in rut maybe mother natures way of preventing inbreeding?
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#463192 - 10/23/07 04:27 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAS]
BSK
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I haven't seen th raw data yet, but I suspect it will be a temporary full shift in range. It may not take them completely off their "normal range" but a destinct shift in areas they are using, and it will last for a month or so.
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#463201 - 10/23/07 04:30 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAS]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: TAS
"These animals are fascinating creatures to say the least."

Ain't that the truth. Do you think the whole shifting while in rut maybe mother natures way of preventing inbreeding?


Many deer behaviors may have started as methods for reducing inbreeding, yet those behaviors now serve a completely different purpose. Whitetailed deer appear to have many if not most of their unique social behaviors wrapped into producing maximum localized genetic diversity. That may be a species survival mechanism. Every localized population has such diverse genetics, no matter what environmental infuence they are faced with, some individuals will likely have an "accidental" adaptation for surviving and prospering under those conditions.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

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#463232 - 10/23/07 04:52 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
TAS
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: TAS
"These animals are fascinating creatures to say the least."

Ain't that the truth. Do you think the whole shifting while in rut maybe mother natures way of preventing inbreeding?


Many deer behaviors may have started as methods for reducing inbreeding, yet those behaviors now serve a completely different purpose. Whitetailed deer appear to have many if not most of their unique social behaviors wrapped into producing maximum localized genetic diversity. That may be a species survival mechanism. Every localized population has such diverse genetics, no matter what environmental infuence they are faced with, some individuals will likely have an "accidental" adaptation for surviving and prospering under those conditions.


BSK, after reading that four or five times, I think I agree with it! \:D
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#463270 - 10/23/07 05:09 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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TAS,

You think that's bad, I've been having some multi-hour conversations of late with an extemely knowledgeable geneticist (Vanderbilt PhD, worked on the human genome projecy, now is a liason for a major drug company coordinating their genetically-based cancer drug research). She has been trying to explain to me the difference between "genetics" and "epigenetics." Genetics is simply the DNA code of an individual or species. However, epigenetics is what that actual DNA code does in each cell--how it works. The difference between the two is huge, and understanding how our DNA makes us what we individually are is actually all epigenetics, not necessarily the DNA code itself.

These discussions go so far over my head, I have to call back 2 or 3 days later and have a "review" of what we talked about the last time! But the information is fascinating beyond description. Kind of like having your own personal and interactive "Nova" episode.

But the scary part is, just about everything anyone who went through basic science was tought about DNA is wrong. What is taught in basic science is so overly simplistic that it really gives the wrong information about how genetics works.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

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#463540 - 10/23/07 07:17 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
TAS
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LOL, I hear ya. I recently took some classes with UT and found out most of what I was taught in school and college years ago is wrong now! \:D
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#464046 - 10/23/07 10:21 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Here's one TAS:

We all know how eye-color is a straight Mandelian dominant/recessive single gene process, with brown eyes being dominant and blue being recessive right?

In reality eye color is actually a highly complex combination of nine different genes, and any number of combinations for eye color are possible. That's why some have hazel eyes, some green, some bright blue, some steel grey, etc. Brown isn't necessarily "dominant" it is the combination of multiple colors. What do you get when you mix a whole bunch of different colors of paint together? Brown.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

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#464105 - 10/23/07 11:05 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
TAS
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LOL, that makes sense when you think about it.

Here is one for ya, humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and cattle have 30 pairs! \:D

How many do whitetails have?
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#464334 - 10/24/07 07:18 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAS]
BSK
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Good question TAS. I don't remember exactly, but I believe it is a high number (over 30).

Here's an even more bizarre but very critical one:

What a particular gene or series of genes "code for" is dependant on what molecular structures those genes are exposed to in the nucleus of the cell, and the molecular mix is very different in the nucleus depending on what that particular cell does. That means gene series "X" does one thing in a bone cell but codes for something completely different in a muscle cell. A particular series of genes code for red hair in a hair follicle cell but code for freckled skin in a skin cell. Someone that has that exact gene sequence will always have both red hair and freckled skin because they are the same gene sequence serving different functions depending on what cell they are in. That is the major and critical difference between genetics and epigenetics. Genetics is the actual gene coding. Epigenetics is what that coding does, and that can be all sorts of different functions.

This has MAJOR implications for everything in Nature, including "antler genetics" in deer. The series of genes that control antler shape/size may actually be the same genes that do some other important function in another part of the body.
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#464522 - 10/24/07 09:11 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
TAS
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I have been doing research on genetics in cattle and find it facinating. Unfortunately my intelligence and education don't even come close to comparing to yours. \:\)
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#464626 - 10/24/07 10:24 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Oh, I only wish it was my "smarts." I'm justing tapping into the knowledge-base of many vey smart and well-educated people.
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#465144 - 10/24/07 03:54 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: BSK]
woodchuckc
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Bryan,
Whitetail deer have 35 pairs of chromosomes.

I can't help but interject a little comment, since this is what many of the people I work with do research on for a living in humans. A specific gene always codes for the same protein in every cell of an organism. There are three major ways that differences in that protein function can happen in different cells: control of production of the protein (that is, whether it is made in a particular cell or not), differential processing of the messenger RNA that is translated from the gene (so-called "splice variants"), or modification of the protein by the cell after it is made to alter its function in the cell (so-called post-translational modifications). Epigenetics is a complex term that encompasses some of the above things, plus many additional mechanisms of the cell's DNA essentially retaining some "memory" and connection between genes above and beyond their simple individual gene coding sequences. In fact, you will not find two scientists who will give you the exact same definition of epigenetics, it is so complex and consists of so many different mechanisms. In your example of red hair and freckles for example, there is definite linkage of the traits, but it is not an absolute since there are people with red hair that don't have freckles and people with freckles that don't have red hair.

It is a fascinating (and mind-boggling) field which we are really just beginning to scratch the surface of. Many, if not most, human diseases which have some inheritance characteristics involve epigenetics and multifactorial genetic issues - as we are finding out, often they make a person succeptible to developing a disease such as diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, autism, etc., but do not directly cause the disease.

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#465187 - 10/24/07 04:24 PM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: woodchuckc]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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Chuck,

You saved me!! I was getting over my head with Bryan. LOL
Now I KNOW you are the smartest guy in Hickman County. \:D
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#466088 - 10/25/07 08:09 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: TAS]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1802
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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Nah, I just hang out with a bunch of smart people at work and a little bit of it rubs off on me. ;\)
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#466207 - 10/25/07 09:10 AM Re: when bucks go missing.. [Re: woodchuckc]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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All I know is this stuff all goes way, WAY over my head. But I find it fascinating.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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