Tndeer Logo

Page all of 3 123>
Topic Options
#437156 - 10/08/07 09:05 PM Round Ball or Conical?
Hickory Nut
4 Point


Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 129
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
I would really appreciate some opinions on muzzleloading projectiles. I've got a replica .45 cal. plains rifle (Traditions) with a 1:48" twist. I've always shot patched round balls at the range and have not hunted much with this rifle. I want to use it during the upcomming muzzleloading season and would like to try some of the newer projectiles. Would anyone have some adive on a good choice?
Top
#437958 - 10/09/07 11:02 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: ]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
Here's my opinion that won't be popular with the inliners or the traditionalists. DON'T hunt with round-balls (I've seen many deer lost to round-balls)--they don't have the penetrating power. Don't use sabotted pistol bullets. Use heavy full-diameter lead conicals in a 1:48 twist gun, like T/C MaxiHunters and Maxi-Balls (or Buffalo Bullets or any of the full-diameter lead conicals).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#438154 - 10/09/07 12:59 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
smokin
8 Point


Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 1638
Loc: Lake City, Tn

Offline
How many deer do you think was killed with a patched round ball? Before the invention of modern day ammo. Everything from squirrels to buffalo.
_________________________
Don't go pushin me against my will, I don't wanna have to fight ya, But I dern sure will,If ya don't want trouble you better just pass me on by.

Im a blackpowder junkie.

Top
#438244 - 10/09/07 02:00 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: ]
Matador
10 Point


Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 3788
Loc: Rockwood,Tn.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: renegade50
know your gun and load, know your limits, most of all know where to hit em!!!!

Very good advice!

Top
#438252 - 10/09/07 02:04 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
Matador
10 Point


Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 3788
Loc: Rockwood,Tn.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Here's my opinion that won't be popular with the inliners or the traditionalists. DON'T hunt with round-balls (I've seen many deer lost to round-balls)--they don't have the penetrating power. Don't use sabotted pistol bullets. Use heavy full-diameter lead conicals in a 1:48 twist gun, like T/C MaxiHunters and Maxi-Balls (or Buffalo Bullets or any of the full-diameter lead conicals).

Yeah, but they are legal. As has already been said, you have to know your rifle,loads, and limits. Probably more deer lost with arrows than roundballs.

Top
#438334 - 10/09/07 02:34 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: Matador]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
I said it wouldn't be popular!

I've watched patched round-balls not penetrate through a broadside deer way too many times, even at fairly close range.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#442882 - 10/11/07 06:07 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
Hawkeye5
6 Point


Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 819
Loc: Hendersonville

Offline
I've killed several deer with a ball. Most of the time the ball is found on the off side right under the skin, so my experience is as BSK suggests: full penetration is not the norm unless the deer is very close.
The ball I use expands to about the size of a quarter. I had one weighed at Hunt's, back when Mr. Hunt was still the owner, and it had lost very little weight. I carry one of those expanded balls for good luck (hey, who knows?).
This is using a .50 Jack Garner semi custom flinter with 90 grains FFF (the most accurate load). Now that I have glasses and can use irons again, I will go back to using this great rifle.
I would agree that many more deer are not recovered with arrows than round balls.
While rifles that shoot round balls (accurately) may be underpowered by today's standards, shot placement is the key, not penetration. You can blow through a deer with a 7MM Mag, but if it was a gut shot, you might not recover the deer. Shoot a deer through the boiler room with a round ball and it is your's, full penetration or not.
_________________________
If you Lie, lie to save a friend.
If you Steal, steal the heart of a beautiful maiden.
If you Cheat, cheat death.
And when you Drink, drink with me, my friends.

Molon Labe!

Top
#443038 - 10/11/07 08:04 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: Hawkeye5]
FULLDRAWXX75
12 Point


Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 6259
Loc: Adirondack Mtns, NY

Offline
I will agree 100% with Hawkeye5,

I have taken a few with a round ball also, here is a pic of one before and after. The after was found while skinning a doe, opposite shoulder between meat and hide. 75 yd shot, .54 cal w/90gr FFF.



The ball is half as thick and over twice as round now.


FDXX75

PS: That deer only went 30 yds.
_________________________
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein


Top
#443098 - 10/11/07 08:22 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: FULLDRAWXX75]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
If it doesn't go all the way through, I'm not shooting it. I've seen bucks shot with a round-ball in the chest that were lost in late evening shooting situations.

No full penetration; no blood trail; potentially lost deer.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#443163 - 10/11/07 08:44 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
FULLDRAWXX75
12 Point


Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 6259
Loc: Adirondack Mtns, NY

Offline
I can respect that BSK, I to have seen deer shot with many different weapon, not recovered. More with a bow than any other.

Like Hawkeye5 stated, shot placement is very important no matter what you are using.

FDXX75
_________________________
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein


Top
#443675 - 10/12/07 07:41 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: FULLDRAWXX75]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: FULLDRAWXX75
I can respect that BSK, I to have seen deer shot with many different weapon, not recovered. More with a bow than any other.


I couldn't agree more FDXX75, that's why I quit bow-hunting. I just have a hard time dealing with a lost deer.

That said, any weapon and any shot placement can result in a lost deer. Bullets and arrows do funny things when they hit flesh and bone. Sometimes a weapon and projectile combination that has always proved deadly produces some bizarre result and a deer is lost.


 Quote:
Like Hawkeye5 stated, shot placement is very important no matter what you are using.


I couldn't agree more. However, when I see a projectile that results in lost and nearly lost deer, repeatedly, I shy away from it. That's why I stopped using the 295 grn and lighter Powerbelt bullets. Five deer hit with them--some at point-blank range broadside--and five deer nearly lost because of no blood-trail. I've moved up to the 405 grn Powerbelts, and now I get full penetration every time and good blood-trails.

I'll be the first to admit I'm biased about MZ bullet sellection because I began using MZs when the only options available were round-balls or big lead conicals. I found I could rely on the conicals for full pass-throughs but not the round-balls. Now in today's world of inlines (which I use) and sabotted pistol bullets, I still find myself relying on the old idea of throwing the biggest, heaviest chunk of hardened lead I can find. I want bone-crushing penetration. I realize some of the new inlines can throw smaller pistol bullets almost fast enough to cause "knock-down" shocking power, similar to a modern rifle. But I still see an MZ as a weapon that kills by knocking the biggest hole possible all the way through a deer. So I use bullets I know will do that from any angle (including end-to-end) and come out the other side.

I want blood-loss, and I want it outside the body on both sides! ;\)


_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#443794 - 10/12/07 08:38 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: FULLDRAWXX75]
FULLDRAWXX75
12 Point


Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 6259
Loc: Adirondack Mtns, NY

Offline
Hickory,

We did kinda stray away from your original guestion, r/b or conical?

I have taken deer with r/b, (.54 cal) if you choose to go with a modern sabot you will sacrific size and energy of the bullet. Starting with a .45 cal to begin with.

As BSK has stated, a full lead conical may be your better choice for that rifle.

FDXX75
_________________________
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein


Top
#443988 - 10/12/07 10:32 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: FULLDRAWXX75]
CHRIS WILSON
8 Point


Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 2108
Loc: Lebanon, TN

Offline
With a .45 caliber, I'd shoot a decent weight conical. Round balls for a .45 are small, light weight rascals. Save the .45 round balls for small game or coyotes.
_________________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have."...Thomas Jefferson

Top
#445430 - 10/13/07 07:06 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: CHRIS WILSON]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
Interesting stuff Renegade50. I too think shot placement is absolutely critical, but I've seen round-balls hang on the skin on the opposite side of a broadside chest hit, and little blood came from the entrance wound, producing an extremely hard-to-find deer in the dark.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#445535 - 10/13/07 09:21 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
GRAMPS
14 Point


Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 8600
Loc: Mount Carmel, TN

Offline
I have killed deer with both the round ball and concial. Like BSK, I prefer a heavy conical. I like to blast a hole all the way thru.
_________________________
The older we get....the better we was.

Top
#446776 - 10/14/07 07:39 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: ]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: renegade50
then again we got to throw the equation of rate of twist into it also for different projectile useage, it is a trial with weapon charges and projectiles and hopefully not error thing out in the woods because of lack of homework so to speak not being done. which alot of inexperienced hunters with muzzleloaders have been known to do when they 1st start out.


Isn't that the truth! MZs are definitely trial and error guns.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#447926 - 10/14/07 07:48 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: ]
Greenhead
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 477
Loc: Chattanooga, TN

Offline
Hickory Nut. Try http://www.whiterifles.com. Doc White has produced some awesome guns. All his rifles are designed to shoot heavy slugs. You can order his bullets online. Roger Raglin shot his stuff for years.
As you know if its good enough for Roger, its good enough for anybody.
I have some heavy slugs I would give you, but they are .50 cal.
If anyone is interested they are the White super slugs. No idea what weight. PM me if you want them.
_________________________
Holey Moses look at the rack on that one!!!

Top
#448120 - 10/14/07 09:20 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: FULLDRAWXX75]
Hickory Nut
4 Point


Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 129
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
Thanks for the good advice. Above all, I want to make a clean kill. I've still got a couple of weeks to try some new projectiles and see how I like them.
Top
#448339 - 10/14/07 10:44 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: Hickory Nut]
jakeway
TnDeer Old Timer
10 Point


Registered: 11/22/99
Posts: 3594
Loc: Hendersonville, TN, USA

Offline
Back to your original question, how deep are the groove sin your rifle? My really good shooting patched ball rifles have very deep grooves, so I can use thick pillow ticking patches. Some, if not most, conicals need slightly shallower or wider grooves to get a goodgas seal.

1 in 48" also is a bit fast for some round ball rifles, though it can be done. Mine are 1:60".

The TC Maxiball was designed for their Hawken rifles, qhich if I'm not mistaken, have 1:48" twist and relatively shallow grooves.
_________________________
It's not rocket surgery, for crying outside!

Top
#449091 - 10/15/07 12:19 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: jakeway]
Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1904
Loc: Normandy Tn.

Offline
As some may know, I am a proponent of the patched roundball for deer-sized and smaller ML game.
Why? I began hunting with MLs in the early '70s and every deer I've taken since then has been taken with the patched roundball. I've never lost a deer known to have been hit. I've never had one travel much over 100 yds. and the majority have gone down within sight. For me and the way I hunt I'd say that's about as lethal as it gets. That isn't to say that would be true for everyone. I have also not had any problem getting full penetration using moderate loads. However I do not expect good blood trails with roundballs. Due to a color vision problem, it is very dificult to identify even a great bloodtrail (except maybe on snow); so this is not a real issue for me. I much prefer just walking over to the dead deer in any case.

The big advantage the roundball has over other projectiles is lack of expense. Using full power roundball loads and loose powder can be almost as cheap as shooting .22 RF. This allows a person of modest means to do a great deal more shooting for practice, tayloring loads, and small game. A man that can confidently take small game and/or varments with his ML is likely to find deer a slam-dunk.

The first deer my Son took hunting entirely on his own was taken with a .45 roundball over 60grs. Pyrodex.

Top
#453471 - 10/17/07 12:42 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: Hickory Nut]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: Hickory Nut
I would really appreciate some opinions on muzzleloading projectiles. I've got a replica .45 cal. plains rifle (Traditions) with a 1:48" twist. I've always shot patched round balls at the range and have not hunted much with this rifle. I want to use it during the upcomming muzzleloading season and would like to try some of the newer projectiles. Would anyone have some adive on a good choice?


I would like to see what combo works best for you. I too am shooting a TC w/ 1:48 twist. Over the years I've shot a big conical but can't seem to find the "best load" for accuracy. I've tried several different combos w/ round balls and maxiballs w/ pyrodex and black powder. It seems that 1:48 twist is just "ok" for both but not the best for either. Interested to see what you go with.

Top
#456789 - 10/18/07 09:15 PM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: ]
majg1234
Spike


Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 61
Loc: SETN

Offline
try some MAXI-HUNTERS in .45 with 70g FFFg they work OK out of a Cherokee (kick like a mule in that lite rifle) groups are less than 2" @ 75yrds,I won't use it out further than that.The rifle is not as accurate as my Omega or GreyHawk but it is a joy to carry
Top
#457478 - 10/19/07 07:27 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: majg1234]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
majg1234,

If you want to feel "kick" I'll introduce you to my Kodiak Express double-barrel 58 shooting 120 grn FFg pushing 620 grn lead conicals. I break into a cold sweat just thinking about shooting that gun!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#457645 - 10/19/07 10:12 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
CHRIS WILSON
8 Point


Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 2108
Loc: Lebanon, TN

Offline
 Quote:
If you want to feel "kick" I'll introduce you to my Kodiak Express double-barrel 58 shooting 120 grn FFg pushing 620 grn lead conicals. I break into a cold sweat just thinking about shooting that gun!
You big sissy!
_________________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have."...Thomas Jefferson

Top
#458638 - 10/20/07 08:58 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: CHRIS WILSON]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
You've got that right Chris! When it comes to that gun, I am a sissy. It knocks me into last week.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#458640 - 10/20/07 09:01 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
CHRIS WILSON
8 Point


Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 2108
Loc: Lebanon, TN

Offline
I can believe it. I'd be a little shy about touching that load off as well. I don't mind recoil, but that's probably pushing it just a bit.

Edited by CHRIS WILSON (10/20/07 09:01 AM)
_________________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have."...Thomas Jefferson

Top
#460502 - 10/22/07 07:00 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: BSK]
majg1234
Spike


Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 61
Loc: SETN

Offline
majg1234,

If you want to feel "kick" I'll introduce you to my Kodiak Express double-barrel 58 shooting 120 grn FFg pushing 620 grn lead conicals. I break into a cold sweat just thinking about shooting that gun!


Sounds Baaaaad, would like to try it once!!!don't know why the cherokee seems to kick so bad,I regularly shoot 375H&H 458winmag and 416 rem mag but that little cherokee kicks!!!!!

Top
#462423 - 10/23/07 07:43 AM Re: Round Ball or Conical? [Re: majg1234]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65637
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
majg1234,

I firmly believe it is stock design. Plus the fact my double-barrel has no recoil pad, just a brass butt-plate. Ouch!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
Page all of 3 123>


Moderator:  RUGER, Tennessee Todd, Bobby G, Unicam, CBU93, stretch, Kimber45, Mrs.Unicam, Crappie Luck 
Hop to:
Top Posters
4105862
RUGER
87575
Deer Assassin
65637
BSK
61369
Crappie Luck
51376
spitndrum
Newest Members
buckslayer85, crose84, Fisher 1959, AKeys, GUIDO
13383 Registered Users
Who's Online
99 registered (ferg, Rebel, Team Yuma, old guy, muddyboots, mikanch, 9 invisible) and 165 anonymous users online.
Forum Stats
13383 Members
42 Forums
95726 Topics
1120672 Posts

Max Online: 788 @ 11/11/13 08:06 PM
Moon Phase
CURRENT MOON
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Forum Donations
The TnDeer.Com Deer Talk Forum is for Tennessee Deer Hunters by Tennessee Deer Hunters. If you enjoy using our Talk Forum and would like to contribute to help in it's up-keep. Just submit your contribution by clicking on the DONATE button below and paying with PayPal or a major credit card. Any amount is much appreciated. Thanks for your support!

TN Burn Safe

Generated in 0.052 seconds in which 0.001 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.