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#432672 - 10/05/07 08:20 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

Offline
I agree with you 99.999999%

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree and you being the expert on the topic I am going to have to say "touche'"...

The only argument I have is that we are humans and we are apart of nature and we are responsible for taking care of mother earth not letting her work alone...and I understand all you said and it makes sense but I disagree with the antler remark...I told you I am not a antler hunter but you can not deny that good looking antlers are sugestive to a healthy buck. And I for one do not just want the Whitetail to live but I want them to do well. If the population goes over the carrying capacity then we should kill more does. Even if that means doing more research in every county and not just 3 units.

Thank you for your patriotism to the deer of TN...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#433161 - 10/06/07 05:22 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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BKS

did not men to yell at you. but any way, the buck in the picture might he have had ehd and lived throught it.

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#433170 - 10/06/07 06:09 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65620
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: brier rabbit
BKS

did not men to yell at you. but any way, the buck in the picture might he have had ehd and lived throught it.


I suspect that is the case. I lost at least 5 deer to EHD.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#433178 - 10/06/07 06:36 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65620
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Stalker,

I absolutely agree that I want as healthy of a deer herd as possible. That's why I try to hold my local deer population well below capacity through doe harvests and manipulate the habitat to produce more natural food sources. I also plant food plots, but if I couldn't do that, the deer would still be in better shape due to my other actions than they would have been without my actions.

I also agree we ALWAYS need more research. We know only a small percentage of what their is to know about deer. There are still so many things about deer we don't understand, and much of what we do know about deer we've learned in only the last 10-15 years (such as their complex social structure). But the recent use of thermal imagers on a county by county basis in TN is a great start. I just wish we had the research dollars to pour into deer research like PA is getting. They are doing some truly cool studies up there.

However, I question our current ability to intervene in a useful way at this point. We sure have a long history of disastrous "mistakes" when it comes to managing the resources. In fact, our history is so bad, until we know more about how Nature works, I prefer to see us use a "limit our impact" philosophy instead of an "intervention for improvement" one.

As for the "screwy" antlers question, we still know little about the driving forces of antler growth and heritability. We really don't know how the genetics of antlers work (what heritable traits are and are not passed from parent to offspring). In addition, many antler growth parameters are only little understood, and things that are observed about antlers may not be caused by what we think. For instance, a common pattern I see with antler development on young bucks is that the higher the buck age structure (the higher the percentage of the male population that is in the older age-classes), the stranger the racks of young bucks get. For some reason, the farther down the social ladder a buck is, the more "strange" his antler development is. Yet as he gets older (and rises on the social ladder) his rack naturally straightens out. Although this is a normal process, we could be fooled into thinking these screwy racked young bucks are deficient in something, yet what we are observing is simply a natural part of the male subordination process. In addition, injury to a buck's body or antler pedical can cause all sorts of deformations in his antlers, even if he is a very healthy animal otherwise. Sometimes these deformations go away over time, but sometimes they don't, and we have no idea why this is. The most common form of this injury problem is displayed in bucks with only a spike antler on one side. Assuming a buck like that has a "nutrition problem" would not be accurate. Trying to address the issue from an "improvement" stand-point could be harmful, as the real cause of the deformation is not a true problem.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#433200 - 10/06/07 07:20 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

Offline
I understand about the injuries and the age structure...but I did not know that the weird antler thing could be because of having a high age structure of bucks...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#433280 - 10/06/07 08:59 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65620
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Stalker
I understand about the injuries and the age structure...but I did not know that the weird antler thing could be because of having a high age structure of bucks...



"Subordination affecting antler development" has not been discussed or studied much in the scientific community. I've heard it mentioned for time to time anecdotally, but no one has studied it in detail yet.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#433531 - 10/06/07 12:55 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point


Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6617
Loc: Nashville

Offline
Excellent discussion guys!
_________________________
If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.

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#433657 - 10/06/07 03:45 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6339
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
In fact, I question if hunters are actually controlling herd growth with the herds current health and reproductive success. I see no indication that we are.

You're scaring me a little here. One of the strongest arguments we hunters have for hunting is controlling the deer population. If those on the fence about hunting believed that hunters did nothing to control the deer population, I suspect deer hunting would be in trouble.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#433876 - 10/06/07 07:14 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BigGameGuy]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65620
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Excellent discussion guys!


It's an excellent discussion because Stalker is one of the "good guys." He can debate and discuss a controversial and often emotional topic in a well-thought out and level-headed manner. I wish more of the debates on TNdeer were like this. My hat's off to you Stalker.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#433911 - 10/06/07 07:25 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: gil1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65620
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: gil1
 Originally Posted By: BSK
In fact, I question if hunters are actually controlling herd growth with the herds current health and reproductive success. I see no indication that we are.

You're scaring me a little here. One of the strongest arguments we hunters have for hunting is controlling the deer population. If those on the fence about hunting believed that hunters did nothing to control the deer population, I suspect deer hunting would be in trouble.


And that's why I've been pushing doe harvests so hard for so many years. I see few productive habitats around the Southeast where deer densities are truly being controlled by hunters. In addition, that's why I hammer away on philisophical ideas/questions surrounding hunting. Our image is critical. The non-hunters (not the anti-hunters, but the non-hunters) will decide our fate. With one vote they can end hunting forever, and they currently outnumber us in the general public by around 10-1. We BETTER learn to control the deer herds instead of worry about antlers so much. That's the biological idea we hang our hats on. We BETTER think long and hard about all of our actions, their future ramifications, and the image they present. How are we going to explain to society if we KNOWINGLY do potentially harmful things all for the sake of bigger bucks to shoot?

As I've said many times, I have no ethical problems with baiting. If it were legalized it TN, it would be no skin off my nose. My neighbors could bait their little heart's out and I wouldn't care. But I promise you the non-hunting public has a VERY negative impression of baiting. We "sell" hunting to the non-hunting public as a necessary biological service and as a great way to teach traditions and values to the next generation. We go on and on about our "woodsmanship skills" and how teaching those to our children makes them better adult citizens in the community. But if we send the message to the non-hunting public that all we're really doing is pouring out a pile of corn and then waiting for an animal to come eat it, I think "teaching woodsmanship skills" will be a tough sell. What are we really teaching? "Here son, let me show you how to pour out a bag of corn." Is that it? Society will be very dubious of what we're teaching if that's as far as it goes.


OK, off my soapbox now... ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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