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#431838 - 10/05/07 11:40 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: JWW4]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: JWW4
I have done some suplemental feeding this year b/c it was the first year I had a food plot growing and wanted the deer to notice it was there. The first time I put corn out I dumped it in a pile. A few days later it did not look so good. From then on I tried to spread the corn out is "single serving" piles (a small hand full every 5 feet or so). I probably put out 15-20 pounds on 3/4 an acre at a time. Does this methiod present the same disease spreading risk?


JWW4,

Spreading food piles out certainly decreases the chance of spreading contagious disease, but using corn as a supplemental food source IN SUMMER is a bad idea. First, deer do not need corn in summer and can actually cause them harm if fed in summer. If corn is to be supplementally fed, it should only be used in winter, and then in a covered feeder that can self-drain rain-water. Second, corn can contain deadly toxins, especially in summer. A particular type of mold that grows on corn in warm, humid weather produces a byproduct that is toxic to animals. Although deer, being ruminents, require much more of this toxin to be fatal, even small amount of this toxin can produce permentent liver damage. On the other hand, birds are highly sucseptible to even tiny amounts of the toxin (aflatoxin). Even at very tiny amounts (20 parts per billion), aflatoxin can kill adult turkey. Feeding corn is summer is a very, very bad idea.

When I talk about supplemental feeding (proper supplemental feeding) I'm talking about the very expensive protein rations specifically formulated as deer feed (basically, "Deer Chow").
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#431849 - 10/05/07 11:50 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
JWW4
8 Point


Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 2074
Loc: Signal Mtn, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JWW4
I have done some suplemental feeding this year b/c it was the first year I had a food plot growing and wanted the deer to notice it was there. The first time I put corn out I dumped it in a pile. A few days later it did not look so good. From then on I tried to spread the corn out is "single serving" piles (a small hand full every 5 feet or so). I probably put out 15-20 pounds on 3/4 an acre at a time. Does this methiod present the same disease spreading risk?


JWW4,

Spreading food piles out certainly decreases the chance of spreading contagious disease, but using corn as a supplemental food source IN SUMMER is a bad idea. First, deer do not need corn in summer and can actually cause them harm if fed in summer. If corn is to be supplementally fed, it should only be used in winter, and then in a covered feeder that can self-drain rain-water. Second, corn can contain deadly toxins, especially in summer. A particular type of mold that grows on corn in warm, humid weather produces a byproduct that is toxic to animals. Although deer, being ruminents, require much more of this toxin to be fatal, even small amount of this toxin can produce permentent liver damage. On the other hand, birds are highly sucseptible to even tiny amounts of the toxin (aflatoxin). Even at very tiny amounts (20 parts per billion), aflatoxin can kill adult turkey. Feeding corn is summer is a very, very bad idea.

When I talk about supplemental feeding (proper supplemental feeding) I'm talking about the very expensive protein rations specifically formulated as deer feed (basically, "Deer Chow").


Hope I didn't hurt anything. I talked to a lot of people and they all said put out corn. Should have come here first.
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#432023 - 10/05/07 01:45 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: JWW4]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Every hunter thinks corn is good for deer. I keep trying to educate, but first, it's hard to reach "the masses" and some don't want to be educated if the truth isn't what they want to hear.

That said, I don't blame hunters. They want to do "what is right" and "what is helpful" for deer, but so often what is right and good is very costly, time-consuming and rarely easy.

It is Human Nature to look for the eaiest route to any result. Our ability to find these is why we are such a successful species. Our brains are just so good at finding logical short-cuts.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#432210 - 10/05/07 03:18 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
16 Point


Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 11122
Loc: NC Piedmonts

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
... and some don't want to be educated if the truth isn't what they want to hear.

...

It is Human Nature to look for the eaiest route to any result. Our ability to find these is why we are such a successful species. Our brains are just so good at finding logical short-cuts.

There y'go. ;\)
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#432256 - 10/05/07 03:32 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Greg .]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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BKS.

THE FULL ENVIROMENTAL POTENTIAL, I AM NOT LOOKING FOR HIGH FENCE RESULTS. I DO HAVE A FEEDER OUT, BUT IT IS COVERED AND I USE IT TO DRAW DEER TO MY CAMERA. I HAVE MOSTLY PLANTED TREES AND SHRUBS. I ALSO CUT TIMBER TO LT THE UNDER STORY GROW. I CUT A FAIR AMOUNT OF MAPLE. THE SPROUTS ARE VERY GOOD FOR THE DEER IN THE WINTER TIME. UP NORTH THEY HAVE A SAYING"FEED EM WITH A AX". WERE I LIVE USE TO BE AN AGRICULTURE AREA, NOW HOUSES ARE MOVING IN, SOME CATTLE FARMS STILL. ALL MEN HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE LAND FROM THE LAWYER DOWN THE STREET TO THE FARMER. I AM JUST TRYING TO MAKE MY LITTLE SLICE OF HEAVEN AS WILDLIFE FRIENLEY AS POSIBLE. LETS ALL FACE IT THE COUNTRY AINT COUNTRY NO MORE, IN MANY PLACES.

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#432297 - 10/05/07 03:56 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

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brier rabbit,

If you are managing the habitat, then the deer don't need the corn. I would do without it. if you want to draw deer to the camera, try a salt lick. I get better photo census results off salt licks than off corn feeders.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#432361 - 10/05/07 04:26 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Ok, soaking all this in...

We agree that supplimental feeding has a place but that place is defined in several variables:
*geographic location (natural soil conditions)
*Severe weather (drought, flood etc.)
*Type of feeder (covered with drain)
*Type of feed (high protein "deer chow")
*Using only to improve the quality of food deer are eating

I have 2 thoughts on this:
1) Would it be wise to create an application for supplimental needs for your area with guidlines of type of feeder to be used, type of feed, amount per acre allowed and make it so that upon aproval by TWRA you had to have proof of approval while hunting. This would give TWRA control over the feeding and would allow TWRA to use the hunter's dollar to help with herd health.

2) How is suplimental feeding any differnt than deer eating left overs from the combine in a corn field or bean field in areas high in agriculture (crop farms)?

By the way thank you all for being open minded on your imputs and opinions. And for not taking this to childish levels...This is going exactly like I wanted it to!

Special thanks to BSK...very informative!


Edited by Stalker (10/05/07 04:27 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#432384 - 10/05/07 04:47 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

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2) How is suplimental feeding any differnt than deer eating left overs from the combine in a corn field or bean field in areas high in agriculture (crop farms)?

First, left over corn in corn fields is not piled into a single location. Second, there is nowhere near the amount of left-over corn available and actually consumed by individual deer in a cut corn field as some pour into their massive feeding programs. Third, corn grown in corn fields is generally available only when corn would be beneficial to deer (fall/winter). Many pour corn into their feeders all summer long, when it would be detrimental to deer.

As for regulation by the TWRA, I would be opposed because that might give the impression supplemental feeding is supported by the TWRA. It is not. Nor is there anywhere in TN where supplemental feeding is necessary. I'm not saying there aren't areas where proper supplemental feeding programs wouldn't be beneficial to the deer, but nowhere is it necessary, and I'm opposed to supplemental feeding of any kind unless absolutely necessary.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#432428 - 10/05/07 05:22 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Have you seen the deer in East TN, this year? Most that I have seen (outside my lease) look sick, weak, and tired...those that range on my lease look fat and healthy...I probably do not have world class antlers but that is not what I am trying to do anyway...I am trying to keep them healthy looking, and a bonus to it is that the antlers have all evened out. Most bucks over here have scewed antlers. As I explained before: 3 on one side horn on the other, one side half the size of the other side etc. and this year my lease has produced even antlers (bonus, do not think I am an antler hunter, but when you see a nice buck and take him then go over to him to realize the other side aint the same there is a little disapointment)

My opinion is that there may be a need in some areas and my lease to me has proved that...did I do it the best way possible? Probably not...but you have gave me insight to the right way and I will proceed from there. What I do not understand is why after all the discussion on proper ways and when there is a need...why would you be against supplimental feeding in areas approved by TWRA. I think that them having a defining line of when and where that it would be obvious that they are concerned in some areas and not in others. Like you said about the crops not available to deer durring summer months but is when they need it, in fall and winter, we do not have that over here and we can not feed durring hunting season (when they need it)because that would be against the law.

I understand your concerns about perception of TWRA's intent on wildlife management and that some hunters might abuse it but those hunters are probably the one's getting busted for baiting anyway...There will always be people that break the law, we have a bad problem with poaching over here and with baiting, but that is where the law enforcement side does its job (and I think they do this the best they can given their resources)

I am just asking for an open minded look at they way we do things and realize that while somethings may not work in all areas, they will work and be benificial to wildlife in other areas. And because of humans, that stretch the law to its limits, we should not stop progress that is benificial.

Also, realizing that supplimental feeding may not and probably will not be needed every year in the same areas and some years not at all...I just want to suppliment when they need it most in years like this year when there is no food and everything is dried up...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#432543 - 10/05/07 07:04 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Stalker,

Yes, some deer are in poor shape this year due to the late spring freeze and the this summer's record heat and the record drought. But that is Nature's way. Nature controls populations through predation, contagious disease and malnutrition-related illnesses. Other than keeping deer within the capacity of the habitat to support the population, we should not be interveining in Nature using highly artificial means, and supplemental feeding is a highly artificial means.

"To keep the deer from starving to death over the winter" is EXACTLY the argument that was used to produce the massive winter feeding programs in the North that turned out so disasterously. They actually made the problem worse by artificially holding populations above what Nature intended, eventually leading to serious contagious disease problems (Bovine TB), severe over-population, and long-term habitat distruction.

If the deer really are approaching starvation in the Eastern Mountains, there are only two things we can and should do. First, we should hammer the population through legal hunting. This will leave fewer mouths through the winter to share the remaining food sources. Those deer left in the herd will come through winter in much better shape and reproduction will rebuild the herd in short order (just a few years with no deer harvests). Second, we should let Nature takes it's course. Mother Nature is much better at dealing with these situations, as she "understands how it all works." We do not.

Once again, the very best scientists in this country that specialize in wildlife diseases (Southeast Wildlife Disease Study Group) believe that the artificial feeding of wildlife is the second greatest threat to the health of wildlife in America today. When those world-experts speak, I listen.

Whitetailed deer are amazingly hardy animals. They can survive unimaginable illnesses and injuries. I never cease to be amazed at their survivability. For example, look at the following pictured buck. I believed this buck was an absolute goner. I can't remember seeing a sicker-looking deer:





The above picture was taken August 15. The following picture is of the same buck 6 weeks later (Sept. 28).




Doesn't even look like the same buck, does it? He has completely recovered from whatever had him on death's door. The point is, just because deer look terrible doesn't mean they will die. It would be a huge, huge biological mistake to use artificial means to produce "bigger deer with larger antlers." Nature has been doing a fine job of keeping whitetailed deer herds viable for around 10,000 years (how long they have been the species they are today) without our help. In fact, I question if hunters are actually controlling herd growth with the herds current health and reproductive success. I see no indication that we are. If we start artifically enhancing herd health beyond what Nature can provide, we could produce major problems for the future. And for what gain? "Straighter" racks? For who's benefit would that be? The deers or ours? The deer herds will survive just fine without supplementation.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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