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#431185 - 10/04/07 09:40 PM Suplimental Feeding
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Let me start by saying that I'm not intending on starting a "Baiting" debate...my question has nothing to do with hunting over bait...NOT A BAITING DEBATE...

Also, I am not claiming to be an expert on anything, quite the contrary...I'm still learning and have been able to work private land (120 acres) only for 2 years...I read alot (ALOT) about the Whitetail deer (books, magazines, internet). I disguss it alot with people I know and with some pro hunters. I try to form my own opinions and not go with what one individual says is best because I can find two reputable wildlife managers, pro hunters or authors who do well but use different philosophies on any given topic...

I do not bait...I do have food plots and feed and put out minerals from close of huting season until 3 weeks from bow opener (to ensure that I stay inside the law), after bow season starts I only have nature and the food plots...

My question: Wildlife feeding as been deemed as being a means of spreading disease. Tennessee Conservation and (BSK) are against feeding because of scientifical studies. If there are problems with feeding then why do other states (like Texas) allow feeding all year even durring hunting season? I have seen dramatic results in the deer I have on trail cam pics since I have started. They are fatter and appear to be healthier. The bucks seem to all have even racks (I have no pics this year of bucks with 3 on 1 side and 2 on the other etc...)

Not trying to offend anyone, like I said I am still learning...I have searched this in our forums and have not found the answer to why other states allow feeding all year when there is so much talk about it being unhealthy for wildlife...

Sorry so long but I do not want a debate on baiting and I am not trying to offend anyone...from my own opinions I have found a balance between "let nature provide everything, feeding does more harm than good, your lazy if you bait or have food plots and poor corn out and shoot everything that moves"

WHEWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#431219 - 10/04/07 09:59 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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 Quote:
My question: Wildlife feeding as been deemed as being a means of spreading disease. Tennessee Conservation and (BSK) are against feeding because of scientifical studies. If there are problems with feeding then why do other states (like Texas) allow feeding all year even durring hunting season? I have seen dramatic results in the deer I have on trail cam pics since I have started. They are fatter and appear to be healthier. The bucks seem to all have even racks (I have no pics this year of bucks with 3 on 1 side and 2 on the other etc...)


Texas does not have the humid air that we do... Feeding deer does one thing beyond spreading of disease... allows the herd to surpass the land's carrying capacity which is not only detrimental to the herd, it is aslo destructive to the habitat. If you want to help the herd and promote a quality habitat to hunt, save the money you buy feed with, lime and fertilize native browse, and work on enhancing habitat, never will I or never have I relied on food plots or supplemental feeding to support the herd. One of the cornerstones of QDM is habitat enhancement... If your herd or habitat is so poor that it has to rely on you to feed it to carry them through and keep them looking healthy, both are nearly helpless.

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#431228 - 10/04/07 10:03 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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i share your same point of view. yes some people say that feeding deer can spread disease, maybe? old wet bait piles could cause this. i have been feeding livestock for years would never feed old moldy feed, so no sick animals. yes some people are againts any form of supplimenting deer food including food plots.i have food plots i mostly grow beans and oats, i have also planted other shrubs and trees to improve the habitat. i also feed dureing the late winter spring and summer.i keep a log book of the deer i kill ,weight antlers and age o and also how much fat. since i have been as they are calling it farming for wildlife, i have seen a big up swing in antler size body weight
and fat on the deer. except for this year, the late freeze and drought have had a big afect on the deer. i know that the human population is growing and there is less room for wild life. my goal is to make my property as favorable to wildlife as posible.as far as some of the people who do not like feeding or growing food plots,some time i think that they are just jelouse maybe they do not have a place that they can do the things that i do. or maybe they are just lazy. tilling fertilizing liming planting weed controll and planting of trees and shrubs take alot of hard work but i enjoy it very much.

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#431269 - 10/04/07 10:12 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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I am not saying I am against foodplots, I do plant and use them. I am against supplemental feeds placed for wildlife... you never want your local wildlife to become dependant on any unnatural food source and not have a habitat that can support them.
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#431281 - 10/04/07 10:15 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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 Quote:
tilling fertilizing liming planting weed controll and planting of trees and shrubs take alot of hard work but i enjoy it very much


I am with you there, but rather than try to control weeds, I enhance them, most weeds are high in proteins and are part of a whitetail's prefered food source (browse)... Thats right, deer are browsers, not grazers or feeders......

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#431291 - 10/04/07 10:20 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Chris Tripp]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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yes i know deer browse and my horses graze. some weed i do not mind but burrs and hitch hikers i hate. as far as the natural carring capacity, aint that why we hunt...
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#431292 - 10/04/07 10:20 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Chris Tripp]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
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Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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I can also guaruntee that neither am I lazy or jealous as I own and manage several hundred acres.
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#431294 - 10/04/07 10:22 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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oh and by the way this year i think texas is humid and we are dry,
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#431299 - 10/04/07 10:23 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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 Originally Posted By: brier rabbit
yes i know deer browse and my horses graze. some weed i do not mind but burrs and hitch hikers i hate. as far as the natural carring capacity, aint that why we hunt...


Us simply hunting can't do nature's work. If your natural habitat can't support what lives in it, the wildlife and habitat is much better off allowing nature to balance things.

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#431304 - 10/04/07 10:26 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Chris Tripp]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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Actually Beggars lice ( Desmodium) is a high protein weed and a major part of a whitetail's diet.
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#431326 - 10/04/07 10:43 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Chris Tripp]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: Chris Tripp
I am not saying I am against foodplots, I do plant and use them. I am against supplemental feeds placed for wildlife... you never want your local wildlife to become dependant on any unnatural food source and not have a habitat that can support them.


Chris,

Have an open mind for a minute. I run cattle and have much more pasture than I need so I never run into a problem with feed. I lime, fertilize, and plant legumes in order to prevent supplemental feeding. The same thing as food plots. All true QDM folks do this for the health of the herd and also (be honest) to provide browse that the natural soils of TN cannot produce. The drought this year has devastated my pastures and hay fields. My hay is in short supply and is lacking in protein due to the lack of rain. The same is true of the natural browse for the deer to include acorns due to the late freeze (14 degrees here HURT everything). My food plots are dust and other people are talking about their stuff germinating but it's so dry here a germ can't live. \:D We kill does and keep our deer herd in check and monitor via cameras and sightings to include thermal imagers and night vision (it's what I work on for a real job that pays the bills and feeds the cows in years like this). I am not trying to sustain a over populated herd with my cows or the deer. I have been providing feed in the form of range cubes for my cows and prior to doing this they were looking almost as bad as my deer! What I am wondering is if someone makes a protein feed for deer in a large pellet/cube form that (once the season is over) I can spread out maybe a foot between each cube in order to prevent the sharing of salivia. I think that would prevent the spread of anything. I do absolutely no feeding besides food plots but I have no plots due to the drought. Whether you want to admit it or not at least with cattle anyway providing range cubes gives the exact same results as well planted and cared for food plots with rain.
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#431392 - 10/04/07 11:45 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: TAS]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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I am not wanting to get in an argument with anyone and I am hoping BSK will shed some light on this in the morning. I know he has said basically that corn is a terrible supplement (I agree) and that protein feed is much better and if done it should be monitored by a biologist. Drastic times call for drastic measures. I think most of my deer will survive but would like to help them in any way I can. I just can't buy the natural habitat business with food plots. They are not natural as I don't have limed and fertilized DER, oats, peas, etc. just happening natural. Bear in mind, I am not anti-food plot as I have them but they are dust bowls. I know my first calf heifers would be having alot of dead calves if it wasn't for range cubes. I also know that by the book (Beef Quality Management) I am running half the cattle I could on my land in a normal year. My deer herd is in the same shape due to the weather and I am looking for solutions. Thanks! Stalker I'm sorry If I am hijacking your thread.
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#431534 - 10/05/07 07:10 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: TAS]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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very good post TAS. i do not want to over populate the deer herd. i just want the deer to the ablity to reach there full potintial. i kill many does to keep the herd in check. oh and by the way is MAN not part of nature?
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#431546 - 10/05/07 07:27 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Chris Tripp]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Stalker,

Can supplemental feeding benefit a deer herd? You bet it can. Especially in areas where the habitat and/or soils are very limited. If the habitat and/or soils are great, supplemental feeding would provide little benefit. For instance, supplemental feeding in IL or IA would be a waste of time and money. But supplemental feeding in Southern AL or all of FL would pay huge dividends in increased body weight and antler development. Supplemental feeding would provide little benefit in TN along the MS River floodplain (good soils and lots of agriculture) or in Williamson County (great soils and considerable agriculture). But supplemental feeding would produce considerable benefit in the East TN mountains (very poor soil) or the expansive hardwood regions of TN (no agriculture and moderate to poor soils).

However, supplemental feeding is a double-edged sword. It can help and hurt at the same time. The most common problems associated with supplemental feeding are:

1) Sets up a situation guaranteed to spread contagious disease as fast as possible.

2) Increases health and reporduction, which is a good thing, but increased reproductive success can lead to rapid overpopulation. And the biggest problem with over-population is that most hunters won't recognize it until it's too late. Most hunters believe they would be able to identify over-population, but I have not found this to be accurate. Very, very few hunters will recognize the early signs of over-population. In addition, how many hunters/managers are actually controlling their current deer density? I bet even among the QDM hard-core, only a minority are controlling their local population. As you improve habitat, reproduction increases, and more importantly, it will also begin to draw in surrounding deer. So not only do you have to remove the same number of adult deer as fawns produced each year, you will also have to control the new deer moving into the property to access the new and better food sources. With a low density herd, this isn't a big problem, as few total fawns are produced. But once you move into the 25-30 deer per square mile range, it gets more difficult than most imagine.

3) Produces a deer herd that is relying on the supplemental feed for production and survival. Rule #1 of localized deer management is ALWAYS produce the volume of food deer need to subsist through natural browse production. Other food sources (food plots and supplemental feeds) should just be a "quality bonus" on top of the needed natural food sources. They should be used to provide higher quality foods than nature produces, NOT more food than nature produces. And the herd density should always be kept within the framework of what natural foods are available. Food plots can fail, acorn crops can fail, and what happens if for some reason you can't provide supplemental feed for a year or two? And considering this year in particular, food plots are bare dirt, yet natural food sources, such as annual weeds, are naturally drought resistant and are doing much, much better than agriculture. Even on very dry ridge-tops, in my "weed plots" I have ragweed and pokeweed ten feet tall (two highly preferred natural food sources).

4) Even when supplemental feed is provided in unlimited quantities, deer continue to browse. In fact, more than 50% of their diet will still be browse. Deer continuosly browse as they travel, and as they move towards a feeder their browsing becomes concentrated around the feeder site. Severe habitat damge can occur in the vacinity of the feeder.

5) Using feeders can dramatically alter deer travel patterns. They can concentrate activity and home ranges near the feeders. This causes deer to clump their activities around the feeder locations, leading to unbalanced use of resources. Deer may be devistating the habitat within a couple hundred yards of the feeders while good natural food sources go unutilized farther away.

These are just some of the biological concerns of supplemental feeding. But there are other more esoteric considerations. Exactly what are we trying to accomplish with management? Are we trying to produce a healthier and more naturally structured deer herd or are we trying to produce the largest antlered bucks for harvest? In addition, consider the age-old debate about "When is management too much management?" Each hunter/manager will have to answer that for themselves. Some will feel anything done by the hand of man is too much management. Others will feel that anything goes as long as results (larger antlers) are realized. Again, when management becomes too much management is a personal decision. For me personally, I manage to enhance the environment for the benefit of the deer and to produce more enjoyable hunting for myself. However, once a WILD animal begins being treated as a domestic animal, in my opinion they are no longer wild. I personally have no interest in hunting domestic animals. If I did, I would go shoot one of the cows behind my house. To me, the thrill is that the animal I pursue IS a wild animal. The minute that animal begins to be fed out of a trough or feeder, it is no longer wild, but has become a cow.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#431551 - 10/05/07 07:30 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: brier rabbit
very good post TAS. i do not want to over populate the deer herd. i just want the deer to the ablity to reach there full potintial.


I fully understand your point brier rabbit, but reach which full potential? Their maximum genetic potential, which requires extremely unnatural means, or their full pontential for the environment in which they live? That's a HUGE difference.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#431619 - 10/05/07 08:14 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
treehanger27
4 Point


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 190
Loc: Spring Hill

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Thanks for the great info BSK
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#431623 - 10/05/07 08:16 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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BSK,

Thank you! That's what I was looking for. I let people bring their kids to hunt my property and that is one of the ways I keep the population down. I know my wife and kids wouldn't kill enough.

I was just worried about the deer for this winter because they are SKINNY this year. I will not feed them now.

Oh yeah and for the record, I haven't killed one in years though I have looked at some nice ones. I do it for others. I get a huge kick out of watching kids shoot their first deer or first few deer.


Edited by TAS (10/05/07 08:19 AM)
Edit Reason: last paragraph
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#431700 - 10/05/07 09:33 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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TAS,

The deer are going to have a tough time this winter. But that is Nature's way. In addition, those who have managed their property for maximum natural food sources will have healthier deer than those that haven't.

Use Nature to provide the needed VOLUME of deer food to carry the local deer herd. Use supplementation--and I strongly prefer the food plot variety of supplementation over what can be poured in a feeder--to increase the QUALITY of food available.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#431731 - 10/05/07 10:04 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
JWW4
8 Point


Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 2022
Loc: Signal Mtn, TN

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I have done some suplemental feeding this year b/c it was the first year I had a food plot growing and wanted the deer to notice it was there. The first time I put corn out I dumped it in a pile. A few days later it did not look so good. From then on I tried to spread the corn out is "single serving" piles (a small hand full every 5 feet or so). I probably put out 15-20 pounds on 3/4 an acre at a time. Does this methiod present the same disease spreading risk?

Edited by JWW4 (10/05/07 10:04 AM)
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#431796 - 10/05/07 11:05 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Chris Tripp]
Allen Sullivan
12 Point


Registered: 07/31/06
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Loc: Ridgely, TN

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Texas does not have the humid air that we do... This all depends on what part of TX your in.

 Originally Posted By: Chris Tripp
 Quote:
My question: Wildlife feeding as been deemed as being a means of spreading disease. Tennessee Conservation and (BSK) are against feeding because of scientifical studies. If there are problems with feeding then why do other states (like Texas) allow feeding all year even durring hunting season? I have seen dramatic results in the deer I have on trail cam pics since I have started. They are fatter and appear to be healthier. The bucks seem to all have even racks (I have no pics this year of bucks with 3 on 1 side and 2 on the other etc...)


Texas does not have the humid air that we do... Feeding deer does one thing beyond spreading of disease... allows the herd to surpass the land's carrying capacity which is not only detrimental to the herd, it is aslo destructive to the habitat. If you want to help the herd and promote a quality habitat to hunt, save the money you buy feed with, lime and fertilize native browse, and work on enhancing habitat, never will I or never have I relied on food plots or supplemental feeding to support the herd. One of the cornerstones of QDM is habitat enhancement... If your herd or habitat is so poor that it has to rely on you to feed it to carry them through and keep them looking healthy, both are nearly helpless.

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#431838 - 10/05/07 11:40 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: JWW4]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: JWW4
I have done some suplemental feeding this year b/c it was the first year I had a food plot growing and wanted the deer to notice it was there. The first time I put corn out I dumped it in a pile. A few days later it did not look so good. From then on I tried to spread the corn out is "single serving" piles (a small hand full every 5 feet or so). I probably put out 15-20 pounds on 3/4 an acre at a time. Does this methiod present the same disease spreading risk?


JWW4,

Spreading food piles out certainly decreases the chance of spreading contagious disease, but using corn as a supplemental food source IN SUMMER is a bad idea. First, deer do not need corn in summer and can actually cause them harm if fed in summer. If corn is to be supplementally fed, it should only be used in winter, and then in a covered feeder that can self-drain rain-water. Second, corn can contain deadly toxins, especially in summer. A particular type of mold that grows on corn in warm, humid weather produces a byproduct that is toxic to animals. Although deer, being ruminents, require much more of this toxin to be fatal, even small amount of this toxin can produce permentent liver damage. On the other hand, birds are highly sucseptible to even tiny amounts of the toxin (aflatoxin). Even at very tiny amounts (20 parts per billion), aflatoxin can kill adult turkey. Feeding corn is summer is a very, very bad idea.

When I talk about supplemental feeding (proper supplemental feeding) I'm talking about the very expensive protein rations specifically formulated as deer feed (basically, "Deer Chow").
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#431849 - 10/05/07 11:50 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
JWW4
8 Point


Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 2022
Loc: Signal Mtn, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JWW4
I have done some suplemental feeding this year b/c it was the first year I had a food plot growing and wanted the deer to notice it was there. The first time I put corn out I dumped it in a pile. A few days later it did not look so good. From then on I tried to spread the corn out is "single serving" piles (a small hand full every 5 feet or so). I probably put out 15-20 pounds on 3/4 an acre at a time. Does this methiod present the same disease spreading risk?


JWW4,

Spreading food piles out certainly decreases the chance of spreading contagious disease, but using corn as a supplemental food source IN SUMMER is a bad idea. First, deer do not need corn in summer and can actually cause them harm if fed in summer. If corn is to be supplementally fed, it should only be used in winter, and then in a covered feeder that can self-drain rain-water. Second, corn can contain deadly toxins, especially in summer. A particular type of mold that grows on corn in warm, humid weather produces a byproduct that is toxic to animals. Although deer, being ruminents, require much more of this toxin to be fatal, even small amount of this toxin can produce permentent liver damage. On the other hand, birds are highly sucseptible to even tiny amounts of the toxin (aflatoxin). Even at very tiny amounts (20 parts per billion), aflatoxin can kill adult turkey. Feeding corn is summer is a very, very bad idea.

When I talk about supplemental feeding (proper supplemental feeding) I'm talking about the very expensive protein rations specifically formulated as deer feed (basically, "Deer Chow").


Hope I didn't hurt anything. I talked to a lot of people and they all said put out corn. Should have come here first.
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#432023 - 10/05/07 01:45 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: JWW4]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Every hunter thinks corn is good for deer. I keep trying to educate, but first, it's hard to reach "the masses" and some don't want to be educated if the truth isn't what they want to hear.

That said, I don't blame hunters. They want to do "what is right" and "what is helpful" for deer, but so often what is right and good is very costly, time-consuming and rarely easy.

It is Human Nature to look for the eaiest route to any result. Our ability to find these is why we are such a successful species. Our brains are just so good at finding logical short-cuts.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#432210 - 10/05/07 03:18 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
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Registered: 08/24/04
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
... and some don't want to be educated if the truth isn't what they want to hear.

...

It is Human Nature to look for the eaiest route to any result. Our ability to find these is why we are such a successful species. Our brains are just so good at finding logical short-cuts.

There y'go. ;\)
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#432256 - 10/05/07 03:32 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Greg .]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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BKS.

THE FULL ENVIROMENTAL POTENTIAL, I AM NOT LOOKING FOR HIGH FENCE RESULTS. I DO HAVE A FEEDER OUT, BUT IT IS COVERED AND I USE IT TO DRAW DEER TO MY CAMERA. I HAVE MOSTLY PLANTED TREES AND SHRUBS. I ALSO CUT TIMBER TO LT THE UNDER STORY GROW. I CUT A FAIR AMOUNT OF MAPLE. THE SPROUTS ARE VERY GOOD FOR THE DEER IN THE WINTER TIME. UP NORTH THEY HAVE A SAYING"FEED EM WITH A AX". WERE I LIVE USE TO BE AN AGRICULTURE AREA, NOW HOUSES ARE MOVING IN, SOME CATTLE FARMS STILL. ALL MEN HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE LAND FROM THE LAWYER DOWN THE STREET TO THE FARMER. I AM JUST TRYING TO MAKE MY LITTLE SLICE OF HEAVEN AS WILDLIFE FRIENLEY AS POSIBLE. LETS ALL FACE IT THE COUNTRY AINT COUNTRY NO MORE, IN MANY PLACES.

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#432297 - 10/05/07 03:56 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64826
Loc: Nashville, TN

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brier rabbit,

If you are managing the habitat, then the deer don't need the corn. I would do without it. if you want to draw deer to the camera, try a salt lick. I get better photo census results off salt licks than off corn feeders.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#432361 - 10/05/07 04:26 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Ok, soaking all this in...

We agree that supplimental feeding has a place but that place is defined in several variables:
*geographic location (natural soil conditions)
*Severe weather (drought, flood etc.)
*Type of feeder (covered with drain)
*Type of feed (high protein "deer chow")
*Using only to improve the quality of food deer are eating

I have 2 thoughts on this:
1) Would it be wise to create an application for supplimental needs for your area with guidlines of type of feeder to be used, type of feed, amount per acre allowed and make it so that upon aproval by TWRA you had to have proof of approval while hunting. This would give TWRA control over the feeding and would allow TWRA to use the hunter's dollar to help with herd health.

2) How is suplimental feeding any differnt than deer eating left overs from the combine in a corn field or bean field in areas high in agriculture (crop farms)?

By the way thank you all for being open minded on your imputs and opinions. And for not taking this to childish levels...This is going exactly like I wanted it to!

Special thanks to BSK...very informative!


Edited by Stalker (10/05/07 04:27 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#432384 - 10/05/07 04:47 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
BSK
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2) How is suplimental feeding any differnt than deer eating left overs from the combine in a corn field or bean field in areas high in agriculture (crop farms)?

First, left over corn in corn fields is not piled into a single location. Second, there is nowhere near the amount of left-over corn available and actually consumed by individual deer in a cut corn field as some pour into their massive feeding programs. Third, corn grown in corn fields is generally available only when corn would be beneficial to deer (fall/winter). Many pour corn into their feeders all summer long, when it would be detrimental to deer.

As for regulation by the TWRA, I would be opposed because that might give the impression supplemental feeding is supported by the TWRA. It is not. Nor is there anywhere in TN where supplemental feeding is necessary. I'm not saying there aren't areas where proper supplemental feeding programs wouldn't be beneficial to the deer, but nowhere is it necessary, and I'm opposed to supplemental feeding of any kind unless absolutely necessary.
_________________________
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#432428 - 10/05/07 05:22 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
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Have you seen the deer in East TN, this year? Most that I have seen (outside my lease) look sick, weak, and tired...those that range on my lease look fat and healthy...I probably do not have world class antlers but that is not what I am trying to do anyway...I am trying to keep them healthy looking, and a bonus to it is that the antlers have all evened out. Most bucks over here have scewed antlers. As I explained before: 3 on one side horn on the other, one side half the size of the other side etc. and this year my lease has produced even antlers (bonus, do not think I am an antler hunter, but when you see a nice buck and take him then go over to him to realize the other side aint the same there is a little disapointment)

My opinion is that there may be a need in some areas and my lease to me has proved that...did I do it the best way possible? Probably not...but you have gave me insight to the right way and I will proceed from there. What I do not understand is why after all the discussion on proper ways and when there is a need...why would you be against supplimental feeding in areas approved by TWRA. I think that them having a defining line of when and where that it would be obvious that they are concerned in some areas and not in others. Like you said about the crops not available to deer durring summer months but is when they need it, in fall and winter, we do not have that over here and we can not feed durring hunting season (when they need it)because that would be against the law.

I understand your concerns about perception of TWRA's intent on wildlife management and that some hunters might abuse it but those hunters are probably the one's getting busted for baiting anyway...There will always be people that break the law, we have a bad problem with poaching over here and with baiting, but that is where the law enforcement side does its job (and I think they do this the best they can given their resources)

I am just asking for an open minded look at they way we do things and realize that while somethings may not work in all areas, they will work and be benificial to wildlife in other areas. And because of humans, that stretch the law to its limits, we should not stop progress that is benificial.

Also, realizing that supplimental feeding may not and probably will not be needed every year in the same areas and some years not at all...I just want to suppliment when they need it most in years like this year when there is no food and everything is dried up...
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#432543 - 10/05/07 07:04 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
BSK
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Stalker,

Yes, some deer are in poor shape this year due to the late spring freeze and the this summer's record heat and the record drought. But that is Nature's way. Nature controls populations through predation, contagious disease and malnutrition-related illnesses. Other than keeping deer within the capacity of the habitat to support the population, we should not be interveining in Nature using highly artificial means, and supplemental feeding is a highly artificial means.

"To keep the deer from starving to death over the winter" is EXACTLY the argument that was used to produce the massive winter feeding programs in the North that turned out so disasterously. They actually made the problem worse by artificially holding populations above what Nature intended, eventually leading to serious contagious disease problems (Bovine TB), severe over-population, and long-term habitat distruction.

If the deer really are approaching starvation in the Eastern Mountains, there are only two things we can and should do. First, we should hammer the population through legal hunting. This will leave fewer mouths through the winter to share the remaining food sources. Those deer left in the herd will come through winter in much better shape and reproduction will rebuild the herd in short order (just a few years with no deer harvests). Second, we should let Nature takes it's course. Mother Nature is much better at dealing with these situations, as she "understands how it all works." We do not.

Once again, the very best scientists in this country that specialize in wildlife diseases (Southeast Wildlife Disease Study Group) believe that the artificial feeding of wildlife is the second greatest threat to the health of wildlife in America today. When those world-experts speak, I listen.

Whitetailed deer are amazingly hardy animals. They can survive unimaginable illnesses and injuries. I never cease to be amazed at their survivability. For example, look at the following pictured buck. I believed this buck was an absolute goner. I can't remember seeing a sicker-looking deer:





The above picture was taken August 15. The following picture is of the same buck 6 weeks later (Sept. 28).




Doesn't even look like the same buck, does it? He has completely recovered from whatever had him on death's door. The point is, just because deer look terrible doesn't mean they will die. It would be a huge, huge biological mistake to use artificial means to produce "bigger deer with larger antlers." Nature has been doing a fine job of keeping whitetailed deer herds viable for around 10,000 years (how long they have been the species they are today) without our help. In fact, I question if hunters are actually controlling herd growth with the herds current health and reproductive success. I see no indication that we are. If we start artifically enhancing herd health beyond what Nature can provide, we could produce major problems for the future. And for what gain? "Straighter" racks? For who's benefit would that be? The deers or ours? The deer herds will survive just fine without supplementation.

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#432672 - 10/05/07 08:20 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
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I agree with you 99.999999%

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree and you being the expert on the topic I am going to have to say "touche'"...

The only argument I have is that we are humans and we are apart of nature and we are responsible for taking care of mother earth not letting her work alone...and I understand all you said and it makes sense but I disagree with the antler remark...I told you I am not a antler hunter but you can not deny that good looking antlers are sugestive to a healthy buck. And I for one do not just want the Whitetail to live but I want them to do well. If the population goes over the carrying capacity then we should kill more does. Even if that means doing more research in every county and not just 3 units.

Thank you for your patriotism to the deer of TN...
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#433161 - 10/06/07 05:22 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
brier rabbit
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BKS

did not men to yell at you. but any way, the buck in the picture might he have had ehd and lived throught it.

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#433170 - 10/06/07 06:09 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: brier rabbit
BKS

did not men to yell at you. but any way, the buck in the picture might he have had ehd and lived throught it.


I suspect that is the case. I lost at least 5 deer to EHD.
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#433178 - 10/06/07 06:36 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
BSK
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Stalker,

I absolutely agree that I want as healthy of a deer herd as possible. That's why I try to hold my local deer population well below capacity through doe harvests and manipulate the habitat to produce more natural food sources. I also plant food plots, but if I couldn't do that, the deer would still be in better shape due to my other actions than they would have been without my actions.

I also agree we ALWAYS need more research. We know only a small percentage of what their is to know about deer. There are still so many things about deer we don't understand, and much of what we do know about deer we've learned in only the last 10-15 years (such as their complex social structure). But the recent use of thermal imagers on a county by county basis in TN is a great start. I just wish we had the research dollars to pour into deer research like PA is getting. They are doing some truly cool studies up there.

However, I question our current ability to intervene in a useful way at this point. We sure have a long history of disastrous "mistakes" when it comes to managing the resources. In fact, our history is so bad, until we know more about how Nature works, I prefer to see us use a "limit our impact" philosophy instead of an "intervention for improvement" one.

As for the "screwy" antlers question, we still know little about the driving forces of antler growth and heritability. We really don't know how the genetics of antlers work (what heritable traits are and are not passed from parent to offspring). In addition, many antler growth parameters are only little understood, and things that are observed about antlers may not be caused by what we think. For instance, a common pattern I see with antler development on young bucks is that the higher the buck age structure (the higher the percentage of the male population that is in the older age-classes), the stranger the racks of young bucks get. For some reason, the farther down the social ladder a buck is, the more "strange" his antler development is. Yet as he gets older (and rises on the social ladder) his rack naturally straightens out. Although this is a normal process, we could be fooled into thinking these screwy racked young bucks are deficient in something, yet what we are observing is simply a natural part of the male subordination process. In addition, injury to a buck's body or antler pedical can cause all sorts of deformations in his antlers, even if he is a very healthy animal otherwise. Sometimes these deformations go away over time, but sometimes they don't, and we have no idea why this is. The most common form of this injury problem is displayed in bucks with only a spike antler on one side. Assuming a buck like that has a "nutrition problem" would not be accurate. Trying to address the issue from an "improvement" stand-point could be harmful, as the real cause of the deformation is not a true problem.
_________________________
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#433200 - 10/06/07 07:20 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
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I understand about the injuries and the age structure...but I did not know that the weird antler thing could be because of having a high age structure of bucks...
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#433280 - 10/06/07 08:59 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Stalker
I understand about the injuries and the age structure...but I did not know that the weird antler thing could be because of having a high age structure of bucks...



"Subordination affecting antler development" has not been discussed or studied much in the scientific community. I've heard it mentioned for time to time anecdotally, but no one has studied it in detail yet.
_________________________
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#433531 - 10/06/07 12:55 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
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Excellent discussion guys!
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#433657 - 10/06/07 03:45 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
gil1
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
In fact, I question if hunters are actually controlling herd growth with the herds current health and reproductive success. I see no indication that we are.

You're scaring me a little here. One of the strongest arguments we hunters have for hunting is controlling the deer population. If those on the fence about hunting believed that hunters did nothing to control the deer population, I suspect deer hunting would be in trouble.
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#433876 - 10/06/07 07:14 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BigGameGuy]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Excellent discussion guys!


It's an excellent discussion because Stalker is one of the "good guys." He can debate and discuss a controversial and often emotional topic in a well-thought out and level-headed manner. I wish more of the debates on TNdeer were like this. My hat's off to you Stalker.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#433911 - 10/06/07 07:25 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: gil1]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: gil1
 Originally Posted By: BSK
In fact, I question if hunters are actually controlling herd growth with the herds current health and reproductive success. I see no indication that we are.

You're scaring me a little here. One of the strongest arguments we hunters have for hunting is controlling the deer population. If those on the fence about hunting believed that hunters did nothing to control the deer population, I suspect deer hunting would be in trouble.


And that's why I've been pushing doe harvests so hard for so many years. I see few productive habitats around the Southeast where deer densities are truly being controlled by hunters. In addition, that's why I hammer away on philisophical ideas/questions surrounding hunting. Our image is critical. The non-hunters (not the anti-hunters, but the non-hunters) will decide our fate. With one vote they can end hunting forever, and they currently outnumber us in the general public by around 10-1. We BETTER learn to control the deer herds instead of worry about antlers so much. That's the biological idea we hang our hats on. We BETTER think long and hard about all of our actions, their future ramifications, and the image they present. How are we going to explain to society if we KNOWINGLY do potentially harmful things all for the sake of bigger bucks to shoot?

As I've said many times, I have no ethical problems with baiting. If it were legalized it TN, it would be no skin off my nose. My neighbors could bait their little heart's out and I wouldn't care. But I promise you the non-hunting public has a VERY negative impression of baiting. We "sell" hunting to the non-hunting public as a necessary biological service and as a great way to teach traditions and values to the next generation. We go on and on about our "woodsmanship skills" and how teaching those to our children makes them better adult citizens in the community. But if we send the message to the non-hunting public that all we're really doing is pouring out a pile of corn and then waiting for an animal to come eat it, I think "teaching woodsmanship skills" will be a tough sell. What are we really teaching? "Here son, let me show you how to pour out a bag of corn." Is that it? Society will be very dubious of what we're teaching if that's as far as it goes.


OK, off my soapbox now... ;\)
_________________________
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#434635 - 10/07/07 01:37 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Bob S
4 Point


Registered: 08/19/05
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
We BETTER learn to control the deer herds instead of worry about antlers so much. That's the biological idea we hang our hats on. We BETTER think long and hard about all of our actions, their future ramifications, and the image they present. How are we going to explain to society if we KNOWINGLY do potentially harmful things all for the sake of bigger bucks to shoot?
Another great quote that I may have to post over on the qdma.com forum for the supplemental feeder guys.
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#434723 - 10/07/07 03:53 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Bob S]
Aviator
6 Point


Registered: 08/26/04
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BSK,

If one were to have supplemental feeding on their land during the winter or summer for that matter, what would be the best alternative to corn? There are so many manufactured products on the market now just for supplemental feeding. I have seen one product in particular called Golden Deer Nuggets. Just for the record, I do not supplemental feed, but I do know guys that do, including some family members.I have taken alot of pride in planting food plots, oaks and persimmons to better the health of the herd. My family members are pretty much set in their ways and view, but if there is something better that I can pass along to them to use it would be great.

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#434880 - 10/07/07 06:20 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Aviator]
deerchaser007
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Registered: 12/17/02
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The record rack golden deer nuggets are the best for summer plus can be mixed with protein pellets if its kept dry. Its even better to mix the nuggets with record rack deer corn in the fall and winter months.
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#435048 - 10/07/07 07:56 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: deerchaser007]
deerchaser007
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Stalker,... trying to supplemental feed on 120 acres is worthless. This is the kicker to supplemental feeding that most don't understand ,.. you need alot of feed stations spread across alot of acres to produce any kind of result. This is how some areas will have successful feeding programs and others will not. It also takes alot of effort and ALOT of money to have a successful feeding program. So much,... that its only possible for big clubs ,ranches,. or a real rich property owner to see beneficial results in the herd that is being hunted. 90 percent of the folks who buy feeders and buy feed for deer are only worried about the atrraction part of it,.. not the nutrition part of it. BUT,.. as allready pointed out ,. most are harming themselves and their hunting instead of helping.

On 120 acres you would see much more benefit if you balaced the herd ratio, left the little bucks alone, created 2 to 5 percent of the property in food plots,.. and opened up some 1/2 acre to 1 acre opening in the woods by cutting trees, and create around 2 5 acre sancuaries around the cuts. Then,.. talk with your neighbors about a QDM plan for all of you to establish and implement on your properties. On really small properties such as 120 acres,.. the neighbors will make or break a plan.

You don't need a expensive feed program that won't work anyway.
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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#435114 - 10/07/07 08:14 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: deerchaser007]
deerchaser007
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And 1 more thing for you and anyone else thinking about supplemental feeding outside the deer seasons. A spring/summer supplemental feeding program to draw deer to your property could cause negative effects for your hunting. Once the feed(food source) is removed the deer will leave the property in search of other food sources that is not offered to them on your property any longer. Thus,.. causing your deer sitings to drastically lower. Its the same principle as food plots only being offered in a summer annual or perenial plots that go dormant in the winter.

A successful feed program has to be in place year round. And thats not legally possible in TN for ethical hunters. BUT,.. a late winter feed program ,along with food plots and habitat improvements can be very successful in TN.
_________________________
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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#435639 - 10/08/07 06:17 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Aviator]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Aviator
BSK,

If one were to have supplemental feeding on their land during the winter or summer for that matter, what would be the best alternative to corn? There are so many manufactured products on the market now just for supplemental feeding. I have seen one product in particular called Golden Deer Nuggets. Just for the record, I do not supplemental feed, but I do know guys that do, including some family members.I have taken alot of pride in planting food plots, oaks and persimmons to better the health of the herd. My family members are pretty much set in their ways and view, but if there is something better that I can pass along to them to use it would be great.


If I was helping someone with a supplemental feeding program, I would use one of the high-quality, pelletized protein feeds. Basically, one of the high-end "Deer Chow" products from a well-established manufacturer.

Now some have had great success feeding pure soybeans, but they admit they often have to mix considerable amounts of corn with the soybeans to get the deer on the feed, at least early in the process. That in itself worries me a little.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#435984 - 10/08/07 10:37 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Excellent discussion guys!


It's an excellent discussion because Stalker is one of the "good guys." He can debate and discuss a controversial and often emotional topic in a well-thought out and level-headed manner. I wish more of the debates on TNdeer were like this. My hat's off to you Stalker.


Ditto,

Some other threads in other forums have gotten so bad that I considered hanging it up.
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#437195 - 10/08/07 09:19 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Excellent discussion guys!


It's an excellent discussion because Stalker is one of the "good guys." He can debate and discuss a controversial and often emotional topic in a well-thought out and level-headed manner. I wish more of the debates on TNdeer were like this. My hat's off to you Stalker.


Thank you for the compliment...
I am learning alot from this and am very pleased with how everyone has handled this discussion...I'm glad it has not gotten over heated...

Hey, and thanks for all the info...I know that you are right about all this but it is hard to swallow taking the human nature out of it and allowing mother nature to do its own thing. I am not a serious big buck hunter, I am a deer hunter but I let fawns and as many little bucks walk as I can. I will shoot as many does as TWRA would let me (Unit B, 3 at most and that is if I can get 2 during bow season) and I do try to wait out a bigger buck, but I would shoot a spike just as quick if I do not have meat in the freezer...

I am just trying to learn as much as I can about what role I can play in helping Unit B (and my little 120 acres)...I know it will only be so much but at one point it was nothing and now atleast we have deer (More than TWRA knows about in my opinion). I have done alot of reading and research and have formed some of my own opinions. But I think the biggest hold back in the Whitetail deer herd in Tennessee is research. Not just people talking but I mean real biological, and herd density research. I know some areas of East Tennesse might have 1 deer per square mile and others (like my little piece of the pie) have 35 to 50 deer per square mile. Maybe more of our sportsmans license dollars needs to go straight to TWRA for more research. I think that the current regulation are good for some areas and harmful to others. I know I need to kill more does but I am restricted by the regs...

As far as the supplimental feeding goes I think that you have me convinced...I'm still soaking it all in. But I know I could probably do more mowing and timber falling that would help out. I do like planting food plots and I am making plans for several more next year...But whats a guy supose to do when hard times are coming for the deer this winter and I can not kill very many because of the regulations? I am limited to 3 does and honestly I do not think that I will get them. I will get one durring ML and Hopefully 1 before Bow is over but I do not think I will get the second bow doe kill, just because of time and the way days off from work and family stuff is falling into play. So, for me to sit back and watch them get sick and die off does not feel exactly right. But if I fatten them up a little between seasons...I feel better. Why is it that what feels right is actually so wrong?

I wish that I could take 2 does durring ML and 1 durring Gun...That way I would probably get atleast 3 and on years like this year I could go for 5 plus my 2 bucks (thats alot of meat but I do not think I would have a problem getting it to people in need).

I think the regulations should be by county and not units A,B,L...
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#437988 - 10/09/07 11:17 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Stalker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Great post Stalker.

In planning for the future, plan on creating as much "patchy" thick cover you can provide. This will help hold and attract older bucks. Many was exist to create patchy cover, such as no longer mowing maintaining sections of pasture (letting it grow up into a jungle that you "restart" by bush-hog every 4-5 years). An even better form of ocver can be created by cutting small patches of mature timber. This alloww the regrowth procees to restart from scartch, and that early regrowth contains a lot of deer food the first couple of years followed by good escape cover for the following decade.

You also want to create as much natural forages--summer weeds, vining plants like honeysuckle and greenbrier, and young saplings--to "carry" (feed) the current deer density without the use of food plots, acorns and artificial feeding. Food plots fail in drought year, acorn crops fail, and there is no guarantee you will always be able to feed. So manage the habitat to produce enough natural food sources to feed the herd. These easiest way to produce these foods is simply ensure sunlight hits the ground in summer. This means either opening an existing forest canopy or allowing any sunlit area to grow up into a jungle of "early successional" plants.

If you have to feed to feel better about the deer in this exceptionally tough year, ONLY feed THIS YEAR during the winter months post-hunt (January through early March) with covered corn trough-feeders (covered so the corn doesn't get rained on, and a trough so the corn doesn't lay on the ground). Make sure you buy "certified aflatoxin-free" corn.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#440689 - 10/10/07 05:48 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Stalker
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Registered: 12/06/04
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Thanks, BSK...Great information and I have actually learned a ton.

Thanks, to everyone else...for keeping this post from getting all fired up and being genuine and honest in your opinions.
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#441101 - 10/10/07 09:11 PM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
Aviator
6 Point


Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 727
Loc: Titusville, FL / Hampton, GA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
[quote=Aviator]
Now some have had great success feeding pure soybeans, but they admit they often have to mix considerable amounts of corn with the soybeans to get the deer on the feed, at least early in the process. That in itself worries me a little.
.
I have been told the same thing! It makes me wonder? What is causing that? Is it because the deer in the area have become acustomed to being fed corn from feeders?

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#441603 - 10/11/07 07:10 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: Aviator]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64826
Loc: Nashville, TN

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It's because deer don't normally eat large amounts of raw soybeans. Deer absolutely love eating the soybean plants, but eating the seed itself isn't as much of a staple in their diet.

In addition, after talking to a deer nutritional specialist, I worry that soybeans and corn don't have adequate amounts of fiber. Deer fed one or both often display problems with a lack of fiber in their diet.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#441883 - 10/11/07 10:11 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: BSK]
1Roscoe
Spike


Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Georgetown, Tx

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Bryan a lot of folks here in Texas have gone to feeding roasted soybeans..usually in a spinner with corn. The mixes tout themselves to typcially net out around 16% protein.

Aren't roasted soybeans straight up a little to hot in protein content for a deer's digestive system?


Edited by 1Roscoe (10/11/07 10:12 AM)
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#441955 - 10/11/07 10:30 AM Re: Suplimental Feeding [Re: 1Roscoe]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64826
Loc: Nashville, TN

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No, some plants deer eat are 30+% protein, but it would matter how much of their diet is heavy protein. As long as deer also have natural browse, that has a lot of fiber, they will be OK.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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