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#379715 - 09/04/07 08:21 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Mike Belt]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19343
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Throw in the "or" 4.5 years old or better and it makes the 9 point rule feasable.

I agree, except that some of us have trouble counting up to nine. ;\)

For me personally, if there were a 9-pt rule coupled with an "or" a certain age, I'd be looking for a buck of that age more than one with 9 or more points.

Not only do most hunters consider a mature 8-pointer a greater "trophy" (than most of the best young 9-10-pointers), but by taking out the older 8-pointers, you are actually doing something good for the herd provided a goal was to produce more 9-plus-point-bucks. Those 9-pt 2 1/2-yr-old bucks will usually become 9-pt-plus older bucks, with higher-scoring racks (on average) than 8-point bucks of the same age class.

But if all 8-pt bucks are not allowed for harvest, then harvest pressure is actually INCREASED on the 9-pt-plus younger bucks, allowing for fewer of the bucks with the greatest antler potential to live to maturity.

With any antler restriction used, harvest pressure actually increases on that minimum definition, to the point that in many circumstances, there might actually be more larger antlered older bucks roaming an area if it were managed with no antler restrictions at all.

Here's a thought to ponder:

If President's Island continued with the same amount of annual hunter hours (and archery only), but totally eliminated antler restrictions, would there be more 9-pt-plus mature bucks roaming the island a couple years later?

I don't know the answer, but my thinking is that some of the young 9-10 pointers would become older simply because some hunters had shifted their harvest pressure over to both the mature bucks (regardless of antlers) and to bucks of any age (regardless of antlers). No doubt, there would be an increase in the annual buck harvest, but would there be more larger antlered younger bucks survive into the older classes?

From a sound deer management perspective, I believe the harvest ratios (male vs. female) and the percentage of males taken annually are more important criteria than any antler restrictions. If the harvest is limited to say an estimated 25% of the males (without antler restrictions), then any antler restrictions imposed may be much ado for nothing gained. Besides, a mature 8-point buck is a terrible thing to waste.

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#380201 - 09/04/07 12:36 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: cmoses]
Tenbears
6 Point


Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 746
Loc: MUSIC CITY (BNA)

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 Originally Posted By: CMoses
 Originally Posted By: BSK
...but the problem is we can grow 4.5 year olds all day but have a hard time harvesting them or even seeing them.

Join the club 156p&y!


ditto that
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if u let'em go they'll grow... QDM

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#380557 - 09/04/07 04:14 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
grundsow
4 Point


Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Berks County, PA

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 Quote:
Here's another example of why I don't like QDM programs set on point restrictions. Under a "4 points on one side" or 8-point rule, this buck would not be harvestable. Yet he should be a "shooter" in most QDM programs. He is at least 3 1/2 and might be 4 1/2.

The possibility of having maybe a few mature 6-points running around is ďundesirableĒ???

Donít they help with every biological thing ARís are supposed to help with?

Donít they help from even a recreational standpoint in that itís satisfying to even witness an animal with such age?

This may be a dumb question, but what is the downside? I mean, how many could there possibly be?

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#380594 - 09/04/07 04:43 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: grundsow]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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grundsow,

BSK never said that having mature 6-points running around is undesirable!

What is undesirable (under QDM) is to kill 8 point or better yearlings while using Antler Restrictions and have to let a real trophy (mature buck)6 point walk.

This thread is about the benefits of QDM over AR's. You might want to read the whole thread.
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To truly appreciate deer hunting you have to get off the computer and GO!

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#381133 - 09/04/07 09:28 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: TAS]
grundsow
4 Point


Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Berks County, PA

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 Quote:
BSK never said that having mature 6-points running around is undesirable!

Well I guess I don't understand what he meant by "I don't like"...

 Quote:
This thread is about the benefits of QDM over AR's. You might want to read the whole thread.

Naturally I read the whole thing today before I made my post.

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#381166 - 09/04/07 09:43 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: grundsow]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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What he said Quote:
Here's another example of why I don't like QDM programs set on point restrictions. Under a "4 points on one side" or 8-point rule, this buck would not be harvestable. Yet he should be a "shooter" in most QDM programs. He is at least 3 1/2 and might be 4 1/2.

True QDM programs for buck harvesting is based on age and not point restrictions. The example he is talking about is the old 6 pointer in the picture you could not shoot with an 8 point rule antler restriction. That's what he doesn't like. Brian (like myself) I think would be proud to shoot a 4 1/2 year old 6 pointer but would be crushed if he screwed up and dropped the hammer on a 8 point yearling.
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To truly appreciate deer hunting you have to get off the computer and GO!

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#381663 - 09/05/07 07:54 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65479
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: TAS
True QDM programs for buck harvesting is based on age and not point restrictions. The example he is talking about is the old 6 pointer in the picture you could not shoot with an 8 point rule antler restriction. That's what he doesn't like. Brian (like myself) I think would be proud to shoot a 4 1/2 year old 6 pointer but would be crushed if he screwed up and dropped the hammer on a 8 point yearling.


Yup.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#381687 - 09/05/07 08:02 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65479
Loc: Nashville, TN

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grundsow,

Having any mature bucks in the herd at all, regardless of their antlers, is a very good thing biologically. At the same time, I don't like any "unnatural" selection going on, and always shooting the largest antler bucks of any age but passing the smaller antlered bucks of the same age is an unnatural selection process. Nature does not select for antler size, nor should we.

That said, I'm not sure "protecting" the smallest antlered bucks of each age is going to do noticeable harm to a deer population. I just don't like it from a biological/philisophical perspective. I try, whenever possible, to mimic Nature's processes. The more unnatural something is, the less I like it.

But my major concern is from a hunting success standpoint. As I've said many time before, I've never seen a biological QDM failure (an inability to produce older bucks using QDM harvest guidelines). But I sure have seen some QDM harvest failures (an inability of the hunters to see and kill the older bucks they are producing). Older bucks are so hard to see and kill that I sure hate to have hunters NOT be able to kill a mature buck they get in their sights simply because his antlers don't "qualify" for harvest. On the rare occassions I can get a mature buck in my sights, I'm shooting him whether he is a scrub spike are a 30-point monster. I, like many hunters, don't get that chance very often!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#381808 - 09/05/07 08:51 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19343
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Older bucks are so hard to see and kill that I sure hate to have hunters NOT be able to kill a mature buck they get in their sights simply because his antlers don't "qualify" for harvest.

Simply worth repeating.

Equaling disappointing is going on one of those single weekend hunts where you are required to kill a doe before a buck, but the buck of a lifetime comes along before the doe. I think many of these regs get created by non-deer-hunting wildlife biologists who simply don't understand much of which motivates the hunters most capable of helping with management goals, and the regs themselves can actually be counter-productive to those management goals.

Just a few years ago I recall one very popular WMA's manager came to the brilliant conclusion that they needed to kill more does and fewer bucks. So he scheduled a doe-only rifle deer hunt (and this was scheduled outside the regular rifle season which should have increased hunter participation). But no hunters showed up to hunt. Since then, all hunts there have simply been "either-sex", with a higher doe than buck limit, and both hunter enthusiasm and participation have been high enough to stabilize the deer population (and produce good ongoing harvest ratios).

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#383523 - 09/05/07 10:33 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
grundsow
4 Point


Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Berks County, PA

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Hey, some buck have to die of non-hunting mortality, right? Why not let the lower end of the scale get sacrificed to the asphalt gods?

Or why not do like PA has and let junior hunters, disabled hunters, and military leave hunters take these guys?

It just seem like there'd be very few lifetime 6-points, that it's not worth being concerned about.

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