#370062 - 08/29/07 07:02 AM
Re: brow tine Question?
[Re: BSK]
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8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point
Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 3869
Loc: Hardin, Co.
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The question about browtines is impossible to answer. Some bucks genetically won't have browtines, but yearlings and 2 1/2 year-olds are too young to have fully expressed their genetic basic frame. Besides, the genetics of antlers aren't fully (or even partially) understood yet. Still much to learn.
But one thing is known about the genetics of free-ranging herds, and that is, culling bucks with less than desireable expressed traits will not improve the quality of future bucks' antlers. The genetics of antlers don't work that way. In addition, there is some much immigration of new genetics through the yearling buck dispersal process that is impossible to have one genetic trait become overpowering in any one geographic location. If a particular shaped rack keeps appearing over and over in the same location, it is highly likely that a particular doe or group of related does has that particular trait and is passing it down to their sons. Culling bucks will do nothing to improve that situation.
The only reason to "cull" a particular buck is because you need to lower the over-all herd density. Basically, just to remove another mouth form the environment. Although, in most free-ranging situations, that can be better accomplished through harvesting does.
BKS,
I'm confused. "one thing is known about the genetics of free-ranging herds, and that is, culling bucks with less than desireable expressed traits will not improve the quality of future bucks' antlers. The genetics of antlers don't work that way. In addition, there is some much immigration of new genetics through the yearling buck dispersal process that is impossible to have one genetic trait become overpowering in any one geographic location."
Then what's the deal with the 8 point or better rule, that it targets your best 1 1/2 year old 8 point bucks. According to the above statement even if you take out your best racked 1 1/2 olds, it not going to effect your the racks of future bucks in years to come.
Edited by 8 POINTS OR BETTER (08/29/07 07:03 AM)
_________________________
" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold
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#370138 - 08/29/07 07:47 AM
Re: brow tine Question?
[Re: MUP]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Hunter30,
Take gil1's advice. Check out the QDM section of this talk forum and visit the Quality Deer Management Associations website:
http://www.qdma.com/
The advice you were reading in North American Whitetail is geared more towards Trophy Management instead of Quality Deer Management.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#370149 - 08/29/07 07:51 AM
Re: brow tine Question?
[Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Offline
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The question about browtines is impossible to answer. Some bucks genetically won't have browtines, but yearlings and 2 1/2 year-olds are too young to have fully expressed their genetic basic frame. Besides, the genetics of antlers aren't fully (or even partially) understood yet. Still much to learn.
But one thing is known about the genetics of free-ranging herds, and that is, culling bucks with less than desireable expressed traits will not improve the quality of future bucks' antlers. The genetics of antlers don't work that way. In addition, there is some much immigration of new genetics through the yearling buck dispersal process that is impossible to have one genetic trait become overpowering in any one geographic location. If a particular shaped rack keeps appearing over and over in the same location, it is highly likely that a particular doe or group of related does has that particular trait and is passing it down to their sons. Culling bucks will do nothing to improve that situation.
The only reason to "cull" a particular buck is because you need to lower the over-all herd density. Basically, just to remove another mouth form the environment. Although, in most free-ranging situations, that can be better accomplished through harvesting does. BKS, I'm confused. "one thing is known about the genetics of free-ranging herds, and that is, culling bucks with less than desireable expressed traits will not improve the quality of future bucks' antlers. The genetics of antlers don't work that way. In addition, there is some much immigration of new genetics through the yearling buck dispersal process that is impossible to have one genetic trait become overpowering in any one geographic location." Then what's the deal with the 8 point or better rule, that it targets your best 1 1/2 year old 8 point bucks. According to the above statement even if you take out your best racked 1 1/2 olds, it not going to effect your the racks of future bucks in years to come.
And now you know why I don't like point rules for QDM programs. But as I said in the thread about "Why I don't like ARs" (Antler Restrictions) in the QDM Forum, programs have to start somewhere. Hunters just getting into QDM haven't learned how to identify bucks by age in the field yet. You have to give them some criteria to go by, and antler points are one of the easiest criterion to field-judge. But I HIGHLY recommend any QDM program begin switching over to an "buck age limit" as soon as hunters gain some experience judging age.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#370199 - 08/29/07 08:12 AM
Re: brow tine Question?
[Re: BSK]
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8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point
Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 3869
Loc: Hardin, Co.
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Offline
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The question about browtines is impossible to answer. Some bucks genetically won't have browtines, but yearlings and 2 1/2 year-olds are too young to have fully expressed their genetic basic frame. Besides, the genetics of antlers aren't fully (or even partially) understood yet. Still much to learn.
But one thing is known about the genetics of free-ranging herds, and that is, culling bucks with less than desireable expressed traits will not improve the quality of future bucks' antlers.
The genetics of antlers don't work that way. In addition, there is some much immigration of new genetics through the yearling buck dispersal process that is impossible to have one genetic trait become overpowering in any one geographic location. If a particular shaped rack keeps appearing over and over in the same location, it is highly likely that a particular doe or group of related does has that particular trait and is passing it down to their sons. Culling bucks will do nothing to improve that situation.
The only reason to "cull" a particular buck is because you need to lower the over-all herd density. Basically, just to remove another mouth form the environment. Although, in most free-ranging situations, that can be better accomplished through harvesting does. BKS, I'm confused. "one thing is known about the genetics of free-ranging herds, and that is, culling bucks with less than desireable expressed traits will not improve the quality of future bucks' antlers. The genetics of antlers don't work that way. In addition, there is some much immigration of new genetics through the yearling buck dispersal process that is impossible to have one genetic trait become overpowering in any one geographic location." Then what's the deal with the 8 point or better rule, that it targets your best 1 1/2 year old 8 point bucks. According to the above statement even if you take out your best racked 1 1/2 olds, it not going to effect your the racks of future bucks in years to come. And now you know why I don't like point rules for QDM programs. But as I said in the thread about "Why I don't like ARs" (Antler Restrictions) in the QDM Forum, programs have to start somewhere. Hunters just getting into QDM haven't learned how to identify bucks by age in the field yet. You have to give them some criteria to go by, and antler points are one of the easiest criterion to field-judge. But I HIGHLY recommend any QDM program begin switching over to an "buck age limit" as soon as hunters gain some experience judging age.
BSK,
I guest what I'm asking, or you saying that bucks don't pass on their antler traits, if they breed a doe?
_________________________
" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold
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#370733 - 08/29/07 12:53 PM
Re: brow tine Question?
[Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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BSK,
I guest what I'm asking, or you saying that bucks don't pass on their antler traits, if they breed a doe?
They certainly pass on genetic traits, but studies show very little link between the antlers of a father buck and all of his male offspring, yet there is a very strong link between a mother doe and all of her male offspring. So in the 1st generation, the doe is the major contributor of heritable antler traits instead of the father buck.
And considering does don't disperse much but young bucks do, carrying their genetics with them, if you see a particular antler trait showing up over and over in a localized area, it is most likely due to a heritable trait being passed on by a group of related does in the area.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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