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#3692242 - 06/16/14 01:28 PM Alternative Weapons for Big Game
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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What are your thoughts on allowing weapons that have not traditionally been legal in Tennessee, but most have been used in ancient history to hunt? Such as

Atlatl: http://mdc.mo.gov/newsroom/st-louis-county-hunter-becomes-first-state-take-deer-atlatl

Sling Bow: http://forums.bowhunting.com/bows-sale-trade/44889-fox-slingbow-slingshot-hunting-system.html

Spear: See atlatl

Air powered guns: http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2010/10-0/air-gunomics
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#3692247 - 06/16/14 01:36 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
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Mud Dauber
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I think the Spear/Atatl is a cool idea. Few would participate, but still very cool. MO runs a special early season for the Atatl.
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#3692255 - 06/16/14 01:52 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Poser]
plinker22
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Registered: 02/07/05
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My thoughts are that it is challenging enough for me with a compound bow and carbon arrows.

But for that small percentage that would give it a go, I have no problems with it.

I would however not want an additional season (IE pulling time away from bow/mzl/gun), but would want any new SPECIALITY SEASON to run concurrently with one or more of the above.
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#3692275 - 06/16/14 02:20 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: plinker22]
pressfit
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Registered: 12/28/09
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I'd jump all over the big bore air rifle..

Edited by pressfit (06/16/14 02:20 PM)
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#3692284 - 06/16/14 02:37 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: pressfit]
timberjack86
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I would just like to use buckshot in the thickets I hunt.
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#3692354 - 06/16/14 04:11 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: timberjack86]
DirtyBear0311
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Registered: 09/01/12
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I wanna toss big rocks at them!
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#3692380 - 06/16/14 04:57 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: DirtyBear0311]
redblood
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the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.
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#3692392 - 06/16/14 05:23 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: redblood]
scn
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Registered: 02/05/03
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 Originally Posted By: redblood
the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.


Bingo!
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#3692411 - 06/16/14 05:55 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
hornytoad
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Registered: 03/16/14
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But is that not the very essence of freedom? Being able to gather food in most basic of ways!
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#3692414 - 06/16/14 06:02 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: hornytoad]
DirtyBear0311
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 Originally Posted By: hornytoad
But is that not the very essence of freedom? Being able to gather food in most basic of ways!


As is often said: Just because we have the freedom to do something does not mean that it's a good idea.

I think the best thing that we as hunters and stewards of the natural world can do is to kill our prey in the most efficient and pain/stress-free manner as possible. I dont see anything less than recurve bows at close range as being capable to deliver that. The operator may be incredibly skillful but the mechanism just isnt good enough.
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#3692416 - 06/16/14 06:04 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: redblood]
in the dog house!
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 Originally Posted By: redblood
the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.



By this I assume you have never had any experience with an atlatl. With practice they are very deadly and can be thrown very accurately up to 50 yards, key word is with practice, and lots of it \:\)
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#3692427 - 06/16/14 06:13 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: in the dog house!]
Rockhound
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Because if guns had of been around the at late would never have existed \:\) I'll keep my boomsticks
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#3692654 - 06/16/14 09:54 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: in the dog house!]
trealtree
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Registered: 09/29/04
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 Originally Posted By: in the dog house!
 Originally Posted By: redblood
the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.



By this I assume you have never had any experience with an atlatl. With practice they are very deadly and can be thrown very accurately up to 50 yards, key word is with practice, and lots of it \:\)


Sounds sort of like the anti gun crowd. Scared of something they know nothing about and making uneducated opinions. An unskilled person with a bow or gun can wound a deer just the same.
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#3692692 - 06/17/14 12:46 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
redblood
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Registered: 01/22/06
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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
 Originally Posted By: in the dog house!
[quote=redblood]the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.



By this I assume you have never had any experience with an atlatl. With practice they are very deadly and can be thrown very accurately up to 50 yards, key word is with practice, and lots of it \:\)


Sounds sort of like the anti gun crowd. Scared of something they know nothing about and making uneducated opinions. An unskilled person with a bow or gun can wound a deer just the same. [/quote



not scared of anything except the numbers friend. we don't have them. as far as the amazing efficiency of the glorified spear, I am sure in the right circumstance, thrown by the right person at the right moment in time they are adequately efficient to take a deer. But just like a 22 lr can kill an Alaskan brown bear, doesn't mean it is an ethical choice.
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#3692694 - 06/17/14 12:56 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
redblood
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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
 Originally Posted By: in the dog house!
 Originally Posted By: redblood
the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.



By this I assume you have never had any experience with an atlatl. With practice they are very deadly and can be thrown very accurately up to 50 yards, key word is with practice, and lots of it \:\)


Sounds sort of like the anti gun crowd. Scared of something they know nothing about and making uneducated opinions. An unskilled person with a bow or gun can wound a deer just the same.



no doubt that a deer can be lost by 30-06 or 7 mag just like it can a spear, but anyone who is honest with themselves knows that exponentially larger percentage will be lost, maimed, and crippled by these outdated relics. if our goals is to project a positive image of hunting, control and regulate deer populations, put food on the table for our families and give a noble animal the quick and humane harvest they deserve- What role do these primitive tools play?
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#3692698 - 06/17/14 01:32 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: redblood]
BamaProud
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Registered: 04/03/11
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Loc: Shelby County, TN

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Ahhhhhh ethics, my favorite subject.

I think its kinda silly to discuss ethics in regards to hunting since ethics vary between people, regions, countries, cultures, states, etc...
Who gets to decide what is ethical? Me? PETA? The NRA? Australian Aborigine?

Some people think its unethical to hunt over bait, some people think turkey hunting in a blind is unethical, heck some people even think all hunting or even the act of killing an animal is unethical.

Any weapon including a high powered rifle can be an ineffective or inefficient tool for killing an animal. On the other hand a hammer can be incredibly effective. Pneumatic hammers(or bolt guns) are used to kill thousands of pigs and cows every day.

Back to the original question, should traditional weapons be allowed? Sure. I would never use a spear or a knife to kill a deer because I don't think I am skilled enough to do it, but if you think you are knock yourself out. If you end up wounding a bunch of animals that is for you to deal with both emotionally and maybe legally. There are already laws on the books against animal cruelty.
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#3692763 - 06/17/14 06:37 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: BamaProud]
trealtree
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Registered: 09/29/04
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Loc: Middle Tennessee

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Here is some neat history about the Atlatl becoming legal in Missouri.

http://waa.basketmakeratlatl.com/wp-cont...I-9-14-2012.pdf

I have never thrown an atlatl. I have never shot a large caliber air gun. But I have talked to people(seen evidence, pictures and stories) that have and they are just as efficient as compound bows in the hands of a skilled person. And compound bows are just as efficient as the person that is shooting them.
It is very odd to see a TWRA official agree that these weapons are inefficient when they themselves outlawed airguns over .25 caliber because they thought someone might kill a deer with one while squirrel hunting.
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#3692789 - 06/17/14 07:52 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
Deer Assassin
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I think the Spear/Atatl is a cool idea
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#3692794 - 06/17/14 08:13 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Deer Assassin]
BDS05
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Registered: 10/15/10
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Agree with redblood
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#3692814 - 06/17/14 08:52 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: redblood]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: redblood
 Originally Posted By: trealtree
 Originally Posted By: in the dog house!
 Originally Posted By: redblood
the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.



By this I assume you have never had any experience with an atlatl. With practice they are very deadly and can be thrown very accurately up to 50 yards, key word is with practice, and lots of it \:\)


Sounds sort of like the anti gun crowd. Scared of something they know nothing about and making uneducated opinions. An unskilled person with a bow or gun can wound a deer just the same.



no doubt that a deer can be lost by 30-06 or 7 mag just like it can a spear, but anyone who is honest with themselves knows that exponentially larger percentage will be lost, maimed, and crippled by these outdated relics. if our goals is to project a positive image of hunting, control and regulate deer populations, put food on the table for our families and give a noble animal the quick and humane harvest they deserve- What role do these primitive tools play?


Unfortunately or fortunately for some there is no evidence to support what you said. So that makes your opinion hold the same weight as the opinions of the people that want to use these weapons. The only difference is they have proved and made a case that they are effective in several states and the states agreed.
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#3692819 - 06/17/14 08:58 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
Rubberduck270
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Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
Unfortunately or fortunately for some there is no evidence to support what you said. So that makes your opinion hold the same weight as the opinions of the people that want to use these weapons. The only difference is they have proved and made a case that they are effective in several states and the states agreed.


If it were super effective archery equipment never would have been invented (spears having been used before bows and arrows). Same goes with firearms. If there weren't improvements to be made no one would have bothered with it.

With that being said though, if someone wants to hunt with a spear/stick then go for it. We don't need ANOTHER season to worry with. Use your stick same as archery tackle. If you want to play with your stick during all of deer season then that's just your prerogative.
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#3692822 - 06/17/14 09:02 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: BDS05]
Grill-n-man
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Registered: 01/10/13
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Inefficient? Satisfy a blood lust? Seriously, might ought to pick up a history book and get educated on how man kind has survived since the good lord put us here. Ain't really nobody I know hunts because they got a blood lust. As far as the "black eye" you might ought to pay attention to what the anti groups say about our modern weapons and how they would like to see us use those primitive/inefficient weapons. Blood lust/inefficient/black eye WOW. I hope that was actually sarcasm
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#3692823 - 06/17/14 09:02 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Rubberduck270]
trealtree
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: trealtree
Unfortunately or fortunately for some there is no evidence to support what you said. So that makes your opinion hold the same weight as the opinions of the people that want to use these weapons. The only difference is they have proved and made a case that they are effective in several states and the states agreed.


If it were super effective archery equipment never would have been invented (spears having been used before bows and arrows). Same goes with firearms. If there weren't improvements to be made no one would have bothered with it.

With that being said though, if someone wants to hunt with a spear/stick then go for it. We don't need ANOTHER season to worry with. Use your stick same as archery tackle. If you want to play with your stick during all of deer season then that's just your prerogative.


If that's the case then why would they allow longbows.. Why not only allow the latest ans greatest firearms? I am not talking about seasons yet. Obviously there would not be days taken away from other seasons..
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#3692824 - 06/17/14 09:02 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: BDS05]
ratsnakeboogy
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Registered: 08/28/08
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With the right set-up and thrower the atlatle makes a longbow look sick ballistically speaking. The shaft is usually over 3 feet long and total grain weight about 3-4 times a standard arrow. Inside 50 yards with someone who is skilled at it, it is a sight to behold.
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#3692827 - 06/17/14 09:06 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Rubberduck270]
Plateau Hunter
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Can I use my carbon fiber atlatl with a titanium launch tip throwing a carbon fiber bolt tipped with a mechanical broad head?? Huh Huh? Problem is a lot of hunters(esp turkey hunters :D) think it's their way or the highway. If anyone wants to use an atlatl be it carbon fiber or bowdock-more power to them. Course the QDMers would require a 120"er or better. Lol
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#3692834 - 06/17/14 09:17 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Plateau Hunter]
Rubberduck270
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Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2704
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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
If that's the case then why would they allow longbows.. Why not only allow the latest ans greatest firearms? I am not talking about seasons yet. Obviously there would not be days taken away from other seasons..

If a hunter wants to use a spear during archery season that's fine. I'll vote for his right to do so. "I am not talking about seasons YET", this is where I (just a personal opinion though) draw the line at hunting with a stick/alternative weapon. When you start trying to introduce another season for stick only hunts you'll lose my support. To each his own though.
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#3692839 - 06/17/14 09:28 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Rubberduck270]
Grill-n-man
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Registered: 01/10/13
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Forgot something. Anybody know the number to all the tribes down in the jungles of South America and over in Africa cause somebody forgot to tell those tribes they should be extinct according to this.
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#3692868 - 06/17/14 10:33 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Grill-n-man]
DirtyBear0311
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Registered: 09/01/12
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So when the seasonal "what is the minimum caliber" question comes up or the "is a .223 enough for deer" question arises, all of y'all that say anything less than a .243 is not enough will agree with the notion that these types of primitive weapons are no bueno? I didn't think so. I've seen people (not just here) that freak-out when somebody suggests hunting with a 5.56 AR-15. What is the difference? Why shouldn't I be allowed to hunt deer with a .22? I assure you that I am a good enough shot to get the job done. Furthermore, I consider myself a pretty good shot with a pistol. Should I forget my .40 and go for the .22 to defend home and hearth? All of these options, including the primitives, will make living things into dead things. The issue with all of this is that their very nature does not allow for as efficient and humane kills as more modern weapons. I don't care how good someone is at throwing a spear. A spear is more likely to fail than is a centerfire rifle. With all that being said, these are simply my opinions and I don't really think my opinions and ethics should be put into law to keep people from doing what their ethical thinking allows them to do.
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#3692870 - 06/17/14 10:43 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: DirtyBear0311]
BamaProud
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Registered: 04/03/11
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The .22 analogy is kinda apples and oranges, what arrows and spears lack in velocity they make up for in mass.

However, I will say that a .22 is perfectly capable of killing a deer and I'd be willing to bet up until the modernization of deer hunting...say before the 80s, the .22 probably killed more deer than any other caliber, mainly because of the sheer number of them out there.
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#3692900 - 06/17/14 11:52 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: DirtyBear0311]
hornytoad
Spike


Registered: 03/16/14
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Loc: tennessee, usa

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Again, you say " I THINK ". That is not freedom for the rest of us that don't agree with what you think.
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#3692944 - 06/17/14 01:23 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: hornytoad]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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So it looks like the only thing we are discussing here is the Atlatl/Dart/Spear.. What about the Sling Bow and large caliber Air powered weapons. Lets hear what the experts have to say about them?
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#3692948 - 06/17/14 01:27 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: redblood
the problem with primitive/inefficient weapons is not the effect that it has on deer harvest(none essentially), but rather the black eye that leaves on the non hunting publics perception of hunting. We cling to the fact that we hunt not just for satisfy a primitive bloodlust, but rarther to balance the population. Then we bring out some obsolete primitive tool like these that does virtually nothing to address herd growth, but will undoubtedly provide fodder for the antis- just because we can find anything else to with a saturday morning. All too often we are our own worst enemies.


Bingo!


X3
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#3692970 - 06/17/14 02:24 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: BSK]
Deer Assassin
dammit
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Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 86337
Loc: Kingston Springs

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one season

all weapons
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#3692980 - 06/17/14 02:59 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Deer Assassin]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2933
Loc: Franklin County

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The really powerful air guns are certainly capable of killing a deer - Sort of. But a lot of their effectively is due to people having such low expectations of an "air gun". Sure a 45 caliber gun can probably about equal a black powder cap-n-ball revolver, which sure beats the heck out of your Daisy “Red Ryder”.  But when you back up and compare that to the centerfire rifles typically used to deer hunt, it don't look so good does it? I sure don't want to be limited to an air gun lobbing a round ball, with a trajectory like a rainbow, the one day of my life that a decent buck FINALLY decides to show up in front of me and now he’s too far away to shoot at. To be truthful, I've shunned lever actions for years for the very same reason. If it doesn’t push a bullet of decent weight out the barrel at 3,000 fps, I'm not going to use it a lot except for ML season or in thick woods.

Now if somebody WANTS to chuck sticks, fling rocks or even try reading Shakespeare to deer in an attempt to bore them to death, I have no problem with it as long as we don't add another season where they get exclusive time in the woods. If they truly want to hunt with a primitive weapon, they'll use it during the current Archery season.

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#3692990 - 06/17/14 03:27 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: DirtyBear0311]
Poser
Mud Dauber
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Thoughts on persistence hunting as a legal method of take? Some argue that homo erectus evolved to stand upright for this very purpose. Human's ability to sweat, allows us the ability to run some animals into exhaustion. (Works better in the plains and Savannahs rather than the woods of TN, but still, were talking theoretics and ethics here. If humans evolved to run game down, wouldn't it follow that it is a ethical means of harvest.
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#3692996 - 06/17/14 03:31 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Poser]
TNRifleman
8 Point


Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 1190
Loc: Collierville

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Some people are really accurate with throwing knives as well.
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#3693008 - 06/17/14 03:45 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Poser]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2933
Loc: Franklin County

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 Originally Posted By: Poser
Thoughts on persistence hunting as a legal method of take? Some argue that homo erectus evolved to stand upright for this very purpose. Human's ability to sweat, allows us the ability to run some animals into exhaustion. (Works better in the plains and Savannahs rather than the woods of TN, but still, were talking theoretics and ethics here. If humans evolved to run game down, wouldn't it follow that it is a ethical means of harvest.


You haven't seen me try to run lately?

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#3693020 - 06/17/14 03:58 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Hunter 257W]
TAFKAP
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Posts: 9430
Loc: Memphis

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"The Deer Hunter"

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#3693035 - 06/17/14 04:58 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: TAFKAP]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


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Why is that buck looking back over his shoulder laughing like that?? \:\)
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#3693046 - 06/17/14 05:12 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Hunter 257W]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
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I thought hunting regulations were made based on facts..
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#3693050 - 06/17/14 05:22 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9681
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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
I thought hunting regulations were made based on facts..


If you feel strongly about a particular alternative weapon, I would suggest sending it in during the season setting recommendations. If it doesn't make it through the TWRA staffing as a recommended change, then take it to the TFWC meetings in April and May and address it directly with them.
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#3693056 - 06/17/14 05:37 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
TNRifleman
8 Point


Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 1190
Loc: Collierville

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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
I thought hunting regulations were made based on facts..


Maybe I missed something but what are the facts? Is it the fact that this implement has the ability to kill and therefore should be legal?

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#3693074 - 06/17/14 06:38 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Deer Assassin]
Mudbone
10 Point


Registered: 10/24/11
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 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
one season

all weapons
I agree, except for the one season all weapons part. I despise orange. I cringe once mzl starts. \:\)
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#3693081 - 06/17/14 06:45 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: trealtree
I thought hunting regulations of TWRAwere made based on facts..


If you feel strongly about a particular alternative weapon, I would suggest sending it in during the season setting recommendations. If it doesn't make it through the TWRA staffing as a recommended change, then take it to the TFWC meetings in April and May and address it directly with them.


I have sent emails. What difference would it make to tfwc if twra doesn't approve?
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#3693086 - 06/17/14 07:14 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: TNRifleman]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
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 Originally Posted By: TNRifleman
 Originally Posted By: trealtree
I thought hunting regulations were made based on facts..


Maybe I missed something but what are the facts? Is it the fact that this implement has the ability to kill and therefore should be legal?


They are traditional hunting weapons (except the sling bow) that are fully capable of killing a deer just as humanely as a compound bow. Some people that are very interested in history and traditional hunting would like to have the option to hunt with them legally where they live.

Here is a short story about an avid Airgun hunter that went to Africa to prove to the govt. that they were indeed an effective weapon.

About four years ago I was invited on a test hunt in South Africa to see if these guns were a valid method of take on plains game. The hunt was set up by professional hunters Robert Dell and Andrew Myers, and monitored by the Eastern Cape Game Association and the Ministry of Tourism. We had permission to take a number of species including; springbuck, impala, duiker, steinbuck, and warthog. Several animals were cleanly dispatched with both the DAQ and the Dragonslayer airguns, and halfway through the hunt we were visited by officials for an inspection of the guns, the recovered bullets (when available) and the animals’ carcasses to determine their efficacy. Based on the results we were given the green light to continue the hunt, and I was allowed to shoot a kudu cow. At the end of the hunt, the officials, the professional hunters, and I were all impressed by the number of clean kills delivered on a variety of game species. Based on this outcome we were allowed to conduct another hunt the following year, and I brought along two other well known airgun hunters (Randy Mitchell and Eric Henderson) to hunt with me. We took many more of the same species mentioned, including new species such as bushbuck, with excellent results.
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#3693094 - 06/17/14 07:26 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Hunter 257W]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8231
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

.....Now if somebody WANTS to chuck sticks, fling rocks or even try reading Shakespeare to deer in an attempt to bore them to death, I have no problem with it as long as we don't add another season where they get exclusive time in the woods. If they truly want to hunt with a primitive weapon, they'll use it during the current Archery season.


^^^^
This
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#3693103 - 06/17/14 07:43 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: BamaProud]
ratsnakeboogy
10 Point


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 3451
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 Originally Posted By: BamaProud
The .22 analogy is kinda apples and oranges, what arrows and spears lack in velocity they make up for in mass.

However, I will say that a .22 is perfectly capable of killing a deer and I'd be willing to bet up until the modernization of deer hunting...say before the 80s, the .22 probably killed more deer than any other caliber, mainly because of the sheer number of them out there.


You've lost your mind!

.22 ammo is way to expensive to waste on deer.

\:D

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#3693106 - 06/17/14 07:49 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Bambi Buster]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

.....Now if somebody WANTS to chuck sticks, fling rocks or even try reading Shakespeare to deer in an attempt to bore them to death, I have no problem with it as long as we don't add another season where they get exclusive time in the woods. If they truly want to hunt with a primitive weapon, they'll use it during the current Archery season.


^^^^
This


I agree, sling bow and Atlatl in archery season and allow air guns over .35 caliber during gun or muzzleloader deer season. Heck I would be happy if they allowed any caliber Airgun for hunting coyote. Still puzzled by them banning airguns over .25 caliber for hunting coyote.
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#3693109 - 06/17/14 07:52 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9681
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I'm in for the rock in a sock season!
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#3693115 - 06/17/14 07:58 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
knightrider
12 Point


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 6023
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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: trealtree
I thought hunting regulations were made based on facts..


If you feel strongly about a particular alternative weapon, I would suggest sending it in during the season setting recommendations. If it doesn't make it through the TWRA staffing as a recommended change, then take it to the TFWC meetings in April and May and address it directly with them.
lol yea that will help \:D


Edited by knightrider (06/17/14 07:58 PM)
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#3693176 - 06/17/14 09:27 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: scn
I'm in for the rock in a sock season!
. I'm glad your taking this seriously since you are the person that makes the manner and means change recommendations.
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#3693186 - 06/17/14 09:38 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9681
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
 Originally Posted By: scn
I'm in for the rock in a sock season!
. I'm glad your taking this seriously since you are the person that makes the manner and means change recommendations.


Your statement is incorrect. I am not THE person that made the Manner and Means recommendations. They were done by a committee, and your recommedation was discussed and had little support. The committee's recommendations went before the entire TWRA staff and were signed off by all. I did present the Manner and Means Proclamation to the TFWC.

But, there is good news and bad news on that front. The good news is that I get kicked to the curb in January with mandatory retirement, and will not be part of the the TWRA season recommendations.

The bad news is that if I can get off work, I will be at those TFWC meetings as a TN hunter. I would speak against any of those changes if they came up as a TN hunter.


Edited by scn (06/17/14 09:45 PM)
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#3693204 - 06/17/14 10:00 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: knightrider]
TNRifleman
8 Point


Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 1190
Loc: Collierville

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I guess I concede that I just don't understand the attraction. I can almost understand the air rifle because if you limit shot distance and shoot a heavy enough projectiles, they certainly can be lethal. The atlatl still bugs me though. Especially when I looked at the results of World Atlatl Assoc. events. In all of their 2014 events (20 or so thus far), there were 23 scores over 70. These events consist of 10 throws, 5 from 15 meters and 5 from 20 meters. The kicker is that the 10 ring is 24.0 cm diameter, 9-ring is 40.0 cm diameter, 8-ring is 56.0 cm diameter, 7-ring is 80.0 cm diameter and 6-ring is 108.0 cm.

To me this is just not ethical. But you are also talking to a guy who practiced with his compound bow for 2 years before I stepped into the woods with it because I wanted to be sure I would hit the spot I was aiming at.

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#3693226 - 06/17/14 10:34 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9430
Loc: Memphis

content Online
 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: trealtree
 Originally Posted By: scn
I'm in for the rock in a sock season!
. I'm glad your taking this seriously since you are the person that makes the manner and means change recommendations.


Your statement is incorrect. I am not THE person that made the Manner and Means recommendations. They were done by a committee, and your recommedation was discussed and had little support. The committee's recommendations went before the entire TWRA staff and were signed off by all. I did present the Manner and Means Proclamation to the TFWC.

But, there is good news and bad news on that front. The good news is that I get kicked to the curb in January with mandatory retirement, and will not be part of the the TWRA season recommendations.

The bad news is that if I can get off work, I will be at those TFWC meetings as a TN hunter. I would speak against any of those changes if they came up as a TN hunter.


HOW DARE YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR!
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#3693232 - 06/17/14 11:00 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
PillsburyDoughboy
Spike


Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 89
Loc: Tn

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I would like to see the adult air guns get approved. I think it would really add some challenge to the pursuit of big game. I also think it would be nice to have in the inner cities and outskirts where hunting is legal and not disturbing residents .

I live in a suburb outside of Nashville and we are in close proximity to a high school. When I say close proximity I don't mean where a gun could injure a child, I am talking about where a gun can be heard from the school. Whenever a gun goes off around here rather it be hunting season or one of the residents shooting his/ her gun into a safe backstop and it can be heard down at the school they lock down the school. They lock down the school about once a week at least during hunting season because they heard gunshots . A adult air gun could be beneficial for that type of hunting.
As far as a spear hunt I say if you are skilled with one why not make them legal and let those that want to hunt with them have at it!



Edited by PillsburyDoughboy (06/17/14 11:06 PM)

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#3693245 - 06/18/14 12:26 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 6456
Loc: Shelby County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: scn


If you feel strongly about a particular alternative weapon, I would suggest sending it in during the season setting recommendations. If it doesn't make it through the TWRA staffing as a recommended change, then take it to the TFWC meetings in April and May and address it directly with them.


Yep. That is perzackly in line with what I always say. If you fee strongly for or against an existing regulation, or think something should be allowed that isn't take it up with the officials, not other hunters. As others have said we are our own enemies sometimes.

I think all weapons should be legal with one season...but I have no desire to hunt with a Chinese Throwing star, so I won't be launching a champaign to make it legal.
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#3693278 - 06/18/14 05:25 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: trealtree
 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: trealtree
[quote=scn]I'm in for the rock in a sock season!
. I'm glad your taking this seriously since you are the person that makes the manner and means change recommendations.


Your statement is incorrect. I am not THE person that made the Manner and Means recommendations. They were done by a committee, and your recommedation was discussed and had little support. The committee's recommendations went before the entire TWRA staff and were signed off by all. I did present the Manner and Means Proclamation to the TFWC.

But, there is good news and bad news on that front. The good news is that I get kicked to the curb in January with mandatory retirement, and will not be part of the the TWRA season recommendations.

The bad news is that if I can get off work, I will be at those TFWC meetings as a TN hunter. I would speak against any of those changes if they came up as a TN hunter.


Your perceived intimidation is noted. Obviously the fact's do not outweigh your opinion on this issue.

I am not an expert nor do I own any of these weapons, so I don't believe it would do much good to go before the TFWC to ask for something that I have never done.

When I sent in recommendations for the allowance of certain weapons I assumed that TWRA would use the facts sent and gather data from other states that allow it. What I did not think is that TWRA would not allow this because it might look bad to anti-hunters and maybe offend a few non-hunters.

The entire reason I actually started this thread is to get a feel about what everyone thought, and I got exactly that. It's always good to have a conversation that includes inside information to the regulation setting process.
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#3693333 - 06/18/14 07:32 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9681
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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LOL on perceived intimidation.

As a hunter/fisherman, I will be able to freely address the Commission on a wide variety of subjects if I so wish. I wish more hunters/fishermen would avail themselves of that opportunity if they feel strongly about a subject rather than sitting on the sidelines complaining.

No system is perfect, but the system that has been in place since 1974 has allowed progress for both hunting and fishing that I couldn't even begin to imagine when I started in 1977. When I hear some of the horror stories from other states, I am very appreciative of the system TN has in effect.
Couple that with what IMO is the best total Commission that I have seen since I started attending meetings 25 years ago, and it is even stronger. The TFWC is by no means a rubberstamp for TWRA, and if you present a compelling argument, you may get what you want.
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#3693376 - 06/18/14 08:31 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
TNRifleman
8 Point


Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 1190
Loc: Collierville

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 Originally Posted By: scn
LOL on perceived intimidation.

As a hunter/fisherman, I will be able to freely address the Commission on a wide variety of subjects if I so wish. I wish more hunters/fishermen would avail themselves of that opportunity if they feel strongly about a subject rather than sitting on the sidelines complaining.

No system is perfect, but the system that has been in place since 1974 has allowed progress for both hunting and fishing that I couldn't even begin to imagine when I started in 1977. When I hear some of the horror stories from other states, I am very appreciative of the system TN has in effect.
Couple that with what IMO is the best total Commission that I have seen since I started attending meetings 25 years ago, and it is even stronger. The TFWC is by no means a rubberstamp for TWRA, and if you present a compelling argument, you may get what you want.


Having grown up in PA and still knowing hunters up there, most Tennesseans do not realize how good we have it with the TWRA.

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#3693382 - 06/18/14 08:35 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: Deer Assassin]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64839
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 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
one season

all weapons


X2
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#3693384 - 06/18/14 08:43 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: TNRifleman]
Tennessee Lead
8 Point


Registered: 08/08/13
Posts: 1334
Loc: Putnam County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: TNRifleman
 Originally Posted By: scn
LOL on perceived intimidation.

As a hunter/fisherman, I will be able to freely address the Commission on a wide variety of subjects if I so wish. I wish more hunters/fishermen would avail themselves of that opportunity if they feel strongly about a subject rather than sitting on the sidelines complaining.

No system is perfect, but the system that has been in place since 1974 has allowed progress for both hunting and fishing that I couldn't even begin to imagine when I started in 1977. When I hear some of the horror stories from other states, I am very appreciative of the system TN has in effect.
Couple that with what IMO is the best total Commission that I have seen since I started attending meetings 25 years ago, and it is even stronger. The TFWC is by no means a rubberstamp for TWRA, and if you present a compelling argument, you may get what you want.


Having grown up in PA and still knowing hunters up there, most Tennesseans do not realize how good we have it with the TWRA.


I agree I think we are fortunate.
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#3693391 - 06/18/14 09:01 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10815
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: scn
LOL on perceived intimidation.

As a hunter/fisherman, I will be able to freely address the Commission on a wide variety of subjects if I so wish. I wish more hunters/fishermen would avail themselves of that opportunity if they feel strongly about a subject rather than sitting on the sidelines complaining.

No system is perfect, but the system that has been in place since 1974 has allowed progress for both hunting and fishing that I couldn't even begin to imagine when I started in 1977. When I hear some of the horror stories from other states, I am very appreciative of the system TN has in effect.
Couple that with what IMO is the best total Commission that I have seen since I started attending meetings 25 years ago, and it is even stronger. The TFWC is by no means a rubberstamp for TWRA, and if you present a compelling argument, you may get what you want.


Your right I suppose intimidation was a bad way to put it. It was just the first thing that popped in my head when a high level official has vowed to fight my proposals even after retirement.

And I still have not seen a direct explanation. Only vague references to blood lust and offending anti-hunters. Nothing about factual evidence that shows the weapons are less capable than other weapons that are already allowed to hunt big game with.

It is hard to convey feeling by reading on a computer screen I understand that, so you may think that I am being rash. I'm simply trying to gather opposition facts if there are any, with civil discussion.

When sensible proposals come up that do not have huge numbers of support that can sway votes by swamping TWRA and TFWC meetings with letters and presentations. TWRA should be transparent with the reasons why they do not allow something so that those facts/opinions can be debated.
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#3693392 - 06/18/14 09:09 AM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: trealtree]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9681
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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Good luck with your proposal. I have no intention of debating the issue on TNDeer.

And, for the record, I didn't fight your proposal before retirement. Because I know you and one of the reasons you want it, I made sure your proposal got a thorough airing. I didn't fight hard for it, but didn't fight against it either.

If you want it, don't give up on it.


Edited by scn (06/18/14 12:56 PM)
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#3694604 - 06/19/14 08:48 PM Re: Alternative Weapons for Big Game [Re: scn]
Grill-n-man
4 Point


Registered: 01/10/13
Posts: 319
Loc: rhea county tn

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Last comment I will make on this subject. More than likely there are actually only 2 true reasons why this will not come about. Most will not take the time nor effort to become proficient with these weapons. Look at the gear and money poured into compound bows and crossbows along with the gear for each one just to make the shooter a better shot. Bull its to make it easier. And the 2nd and most contributing factor is money. There is no money in something most could make at home or if they have to buy it the cost would more than likely not come nowhere in the ball park of what the average price of a new compound bow cost. Why do you think that public hunting land in TN in the last 20 years has gone from hundreds of thousands of acres all across the state to, well y'all know what it is now. Everyone got their hand out and their pockets are deep.
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