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#366539 - 08/27/07 07:44 AM Another example of why I don't like ARs
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Here's another example of why I don't like QDM programs set on point restrictions. Under a "4 points on one side" or 8-point rule, this buck would not be harvestable. Yet he should be a "shooter" in most QDM programs. He is at least 3 1/2 and might be 4 1/2.

_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#366595 - 08/27/07 08:12 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
pastorbmp
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Registered: 01/16/06
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BSK,
I agree with you, but how do you feasibly carry out a QDM program using age as a factor? Most hunters could not estimate age...especially in the heat of the moment. Do you think spread would be better?

I know the best case scenerio would be to have experienced, educated hunters who are committed to herd management on your lease, but many times that is not feasible.

What do you think of the "4 on one side" rule for WMA's ? Do they have any other way to control the number of young bucks killed? These are questions I have rolled over in my mind.

I have some friends that have a 3 point on one side rule on their lease?!?! That's really ridiculous...what are you accomplishing? Killing off your best yearlings!
_________________________
Fellowship Baptist Church Website

1Ti 1:15: ...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

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#366640 - 08/27/07 08:41 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: pastorbmp]
BigGameGuy
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Age restrictions work great for private hunting leases. In fact, age restrictions are the preferred management practice since you can teach your restrictions to lease members. Unfortunately, public land opportunities do not have the ability to control hunter skill levels so antler characteristic restrictions are the only method equitable to all.
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If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.

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#366798 - 08/27/07 10:26 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BigGameGuy]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
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Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Age restrictions work great for private hunting leases. In fact, age restrictions are the preferred management practice since you can teach your restrictions to lease members. Unfortunately, public land opportunities do not have the ability to control hunter skill levels so antler characteristic restrictions are the only method equitable to all.

Why not use both, as in giving a hunter a choice of either/or?
Wouldn't that be more equitable to all?


A large, and growing, number of hunters can accurately field judge the difference between 3 1/2 and older bucks vs. 2 1/2 and younger bucks.

Our QDM club allows hunters to use any one of multiple criteria in defining a minimal club "shooter". The multiple criteria allows those hunters with better aging skills to not worry about antler criteria, while those less experienced hunters may prefer the antler criteria. Yet, those less experienced hunters are given incentive to learn better age-judging skills.

Basically, we allow any 3 1/2-yr-old or older as a "shooter" buck.
But, we also allow any 15-inch spread and/or any 17-inch beam length. While this makes most 2 1/2-yr-olds (in our area) minimal club-legal "shooters", we have found more of the experienced hunters are voluntarily passing up these younger bucks that meet the minimum antler criteria.

On a public WMA such as President's Island, wouldn't it be a more sound program to additionally allow the taking of any 4 1/2-yr-old or older buck? Would think this would save some of the best 9 & 10-point 2 1/2's that are currently being killed there, in exchange for some fully mature record-book 8-pointers that are currently being wasted (not available to be killed under the antler restrictions).

Or put it this way, wouldn't it be better (from a deer management perspective) and a greater trophy (from most hunters' perspectives), for a hunter to take a 5 1/2-yr-old 8-pointer (no matter what the buck's antlers score) instead of a genetically superior 9 to 10-point 2 1/2-yr-old buck (meets the 9-point rule)?

My thinking is that if ANY mature buck were legal, many hunters would volutarily pass up more younger WMA-legal 9-point bucks, leading to greater numbers of larger-antlered mature bucks?

Maybe a less experienced deer hunter (or even an experienced deer manager), can't relate, but to many experienced deer hunters, a mature 140-class 8-pointer is a tremedously greater "trophy" than an antler-gentically superior but young 120-class 10-pointer. Why exclude those mature 8-pointers from harvest?

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#366866 - 08/27/07 10:55 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
gil1
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Registered: 04/06/07
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Here's another example of why I don't like QDM programs set on point restrictions. Under a "4 points on one side" or 8-point rule, this buck would not be harvestable. Yet he should be a "shooter" in most QDM programs. He is at least 3 1/2 and might be 4 1/2.


Since when are QDM programs set on point restrictions? When I read QDM's Quality Whitetails, I see a ton of articles teaching folks how to age deer so they won't depend on antlers to set their QDM programs. I'm thinking that if you're basing your harvest on antlers, your taking a step, but you're not harvesting by the guidelines that QDM would recommend.
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It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

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#366910 - 08/27/07 11:16 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: gil1]
pastorbmp
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Registered: 01/16/06
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Wes,
No offense, but you must not hunt the same WMA's that I do. Most fellows you are lucky if you can keep them from "shooting first and checking the # of points later". No telling how many bucks are left laying in the woods because some yahoo shot one then went down and checked it. The spirit of what you are saying is absolutely right, but the practicality of it on a WMA (imo) is impossible. The average weekend warrior hunter couldn't tell the difference between a 2 1/2 and a 3 1/2 year old deer. In fact, I'd say many have never even seen a 3 1/2 year deer.

Give you one example...ran into a guy at Catoosa last year. He said "they sure messed this place up when they started that 4 on one side rule. 20 years ago there used to be all kinds of deer up here, now there ain't no deer here".

I just scratched my head at that one!

Do you think you are going to be able to teach a guy like that how to distinguish between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old deer?
_________________________
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1Ti 1:15: ...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

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#366941 - 08/27/07 11:40 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: pastorbmp]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
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Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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Pastorbmp,

Keep in mind that first and foremost, I think all antler "point" restrictions, such as "4 on a side" or "9 points" may be as detrimental as they are beneficial. I'd generally much prefer to see a simple "either-sex" regulation than any antler point restrictions at all. If the deer population is low, have a low limit (and maybe a short hunt). If the deer population is higher, have a higher doe limit than the buck limit, but the ultimate in hunter choice is "either-sex" regs.
 Originally Posted By: pastorbmp
Wes,
No offense, but you must not hunt the same WMA's that I do. Most fellows you are lucky if you can keep them from "shooting first and checking the # of points later". No telling how many bucks are left laying in the woods because some yahoo shot one then went down and checked it. The spirit of what you are saying is absolutely right, but the practicality of it on a WMA (imo) is impossible. The average weekend warrior hunter couldn't tell the difference between a 2 1/2 and a 3 1/2 year old deer. In fact, I'd say many have never even seen a 3 1/2 year deer.

Give you one example...ran into a guy at Catoosa last year. He said "they sure messed this place up when they started that 4 on one side rule. 20 years ago there used to be all kinds of deer up here, now there ain't no deer here".

Do you think you are going to be able to teach a guy like that how to distinguish between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old deer?

Probably not, but do you think you can teach that guy to count to four before he shoots a little buck either?
In the situation you describe, perhaps the best regs would simply be "either-sex" with a shorter season.

With the option to "age" a buck as additional "legal" buck criteria, I was referring to the more intensely monitored WMA's such as President's Island, where every buck harvested is aged, and it's a much more controlled environment than Catoosa WMA. Most older bucks would already be legal for harvest at Catoosa, but in a place with a 9-point antler criteria, many if not most older bucks are illegal for harvest.

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#366986 - 08/27/07 12:36 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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pastorbmp,

I don't know of any "real" QDM programs on public land. In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to practice QDM on public land. Proper QDM requires educated hunters: educated in identify bucks by age, identifiying button bucks from adult does, and educated in what is being attempted in the way of management and why. Hunters must be dedicated to the QDM priciples to make the system work effectively.

However, I can see using antler restrictions as a starting point for a QDM program. You have to start somewhere. But once the hunters on a managed property have seen and killed a few 2 1/2 year-old bucks, they can easily learn to identify a yearling from a 2 1/2 year-old. Once they have some experience seeing, identifying andkilling 2 1/2s (and the occassional 3 1/2, which will be produced by a "no yearlings" harvest strategy), then move them up to a harvest limit of 3 1/2. It can be done. I've seen it work over and over again.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#367042 - 08/27/07 01:04 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
RUGER Administrator
Mouse Killa
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What does Jim Zumbo's favorite rifle have to do with this?

Oh, nevermind. \:D
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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#367107 - 08/27/07 01:41 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Wes Parrish]
pastorbmp
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Registered: 01/16/06
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Bsk,
I am on your side on this. While I do not think a 4 on one side rule is the best management technique, it is much better than none, especially for a WMA. A private lease, as you say, is a different matter. No doubt, going by age classification (with some understanding that occasional misjudgments are going to be made) is absolutely the way to go.

"Probably not, but do you think you can teach that guy to count to four before he shoots a little buck either
 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
Probably not, but do you think you can teach that guy to count to four before he shoots a little buck either?


Wes...you got me there! \:\) Touche!
_________________________
Fellowship Baptist Church Website

1Ti 1:15: ...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

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