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#371505 - 08/29/07 07:26 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5133
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...

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One thing we did on our other 700 acres is to also allow any buck with a 12" inside spread, regardless of points.

We have the 4pts on one side rule but if you see a big mature buck with less than that like the 6pts posted here, it's alright to take him.

I have an idea our other club will do the same next year.
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#372139 - 08/29/07 11:09 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
Red Rider 450
4 Point


Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 345
Loc: Florence,Al

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Yeah we would like to be able to only shoot 3 1/2 year olds and up.

But like AS said we have some guys who would shoot yearling and 2 1/2 year olds and swear up and down they were 4 year old deer.

We had to start somewhere...we have had repeat problems from a few members, but that is almost behind us after this year...I hope.

ALSO, since placing AR's we have seen a steady incline in 2 1/2's, 3 1/2's and a few more mature bucks. We also started taking more does...I think we should be taking even more, but I guess we have to give it some time.

However I do agree with BSK, THis is just a starting point for us. In the future we hope to be able to place an age restriction instead of an Antler restriction.
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#372302 - 08/30/07 06:39 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Red Rider 450]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Red Rider 450,

We started with an AR at first--buck had to have an outside spread as wide as his ears--but eventually just made the rule "no yearlings" once hunters had gained enough experience identifying yearlings from older bucks.

Now, most hunters on the place will hold out for a 3 1/2 or older buck, but 2 1/2s are still "legal."
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#372324 - 08/30/07 06:53 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: BSK]
Red Rider 450
4 Point


Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 345
Loc: Florence,Al

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Thats sounds good.

How much benefit would we gain by "passing" on the 2 1/2's and only taking 3 1/2's and up, as opposed to taking 2 1/2's and up??
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#372432 - 08/30/07 07:56 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Red Rider 450]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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That depends. Simply by passing yearlings you are allowing bucks to reach the age (2 1/2) where they are pretty good at avoiding hunters. Once a buck gets to 3 1/2, he is an amazingly wary creature. In essence, he is very hard to see and kill.

So it all comes down to your hunters. Are they good enough to kill the 3 1/2 year-old bucks that exist?

We keep our limit at 2 1/2 for a couple of reasons:

1) We have a couple of out-of-state hunters that only make it in for 4 or 5 days of hunting per year. The odds of killing a 3 1/2+ year-old buck in only 4 to 5 days of hunting are low.

2) Our hunting is more "entertainment" than anything else, and some hunters are more than happy with a 80-100 gross 2 1/2 year-old buck.

3) Most of us simply aren't that good of hunters! Even seeing a single 3 1/2+ year-old buck in an entire season is not a guarantee. Last year we had 11 bucks 3 1/2 or older we were regularly photographing on our property, yet only half the hunters ever saw one.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#372488 - 08/30/07 08:24 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: pastorbmp]
Locksley
16 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 19744
Loc: Antioch TN

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 Originally Posted By: pastorbmp
AR's are MUCH MUCH better than nothing, in my opinion. No, not the best way to manage a herd...but way better than the old days of "How many bucks did you kill this year", "AH, I only killed 7, 4 spikes, forkhorn and two good 6 pointers"....boy those were the days, weren't they! \:\)




pastorbmp that is what a lot of hunters want still . They lack the patience or reguard for the herd to change their ways to.
To guys like that only points restrictions will work , and only then after some of them get a ticket for shooting and leaving does and to small bucks laying.
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To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;"The greatest pain a man can suffer is to have knowledge of much, and power over nothing" - Herodotus

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#372594 - 08/30/07 09:24 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Red Rider 450]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Red Rider 450
How much benefit would we gain by "passing" on the 2 1/2's and only taking 3 1/2's and up, as opposed to taking 2 1/2's and up??

Depends on how you want to define "benefit" and "gain".
For me personally, I "gain" immeasurably in observing more natural deer activity, as well as positioning myself for a much better chance of taking a mature buck. I gain a lot every time I get to observe deer, and don't cut that observation short by killing one. Killing a deer is only one part of why I'm hunting ---- I enjoy "hunting", and observing undisturbed wildlife.

This is not just an issue of producing more 3 1/2 & older bucks, but in increasing your odds of taking a 3 1/2 & older buck. Older bucks have a tendency to follow the trails of younger bucks, and only move out when other deer have kind of proven an area safe. I have often seen an older buck following the same trail as a younger buck, but just coming along a few minutes later. If you kill that 2 1/2, you may never know about the 3 1/2 that was behind him.

But, obviously, if you produce more 3 1/2's, you should be increasing your odds of seeing one. By passing up all 2 1/2's, how many more 3 1/2's and older bucks could you expect to produce? This is going to vary greatly by both habitat and the hunters hunting it. In some situations, it would be likely that most 2 1/2's would be killed unless most hunters were passing them up; other situations, most 2 1/2's might be surviving to 3 1/2 and older, even if all hunters saw all 2 1/2's as "shooter" bucks.

In my main TN hunting areas of Stewart County, I would speculate that IF no one was killing any 2 1/2's, we would be AT THE VERY LEAST more than doubling the number of 3 1/2's available for harvest (compared to if all hunters were killing every 2 1/2 they could). And even if all hunters then saw all 3 1/2's as "shooter" bucks, I believe we would still be more than quadrupling the number of 4 1/2-yr-old and older bucks available for harvest --- simply by not killing any 2 1/2's.

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#372801 - 08/30/07 11:12 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Wes Parrish]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4021
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

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I still say for the majority of hunters if you see a 130" deer or better, why not be able to shoot him no matter how many points, especially if the deer will score over 140", I think that would completely suck to have pass that deer because he only has 6, 7, or 8 points. Now if I had the money and was able to spend several thousand dollars to go kill a buck, I would have the mindset that a 150" deer would not be good enough. I just can't understand as to why it has to be if a 130", 140" or better eight pointer walks by then on several WMA's you cannot shoot that deer. Especially in the case of President's Island where there are so few hunters, it seems theys could at least come up with some way to shoot a big deer (a class on scoring, and then set a scoring minimum and if he does not meet the minimum then you lose the deer, pay a penalty, etc.). A guy I know killed a 7 pointer in middle tennessee a few years ago that I will guarantee any hunter would kill in a heartbeat. He grossed over 150", was over 20" wide and that is another deer that more than proves why I do not like antler restrictions. My 7 pointer I have mounted has over 11" G2's, over 16" wide, socres in the upper 120's or low 130's, dressed out 172 lbs. and I have not met anyone that would have passed him. It seems like there could be some way those type deer could be harvested and still be legal. Like BSK says, those deer may not even be seen or if they are that may the only time they are seen and for most hunters that would be a once in a lifetime deer. This is also why I would think having to kill a doe to kill a buck is crazy to. Now having to kill a doe before you kill a second or third buck in a season that would be fine, but with my luck the very first buck that walked by would be the largest buck I have ever seen. I more than agree that aging is probably the best way to manage a deer herd, but what could be done to make it so that when a once in a lifetime buck (but has 8 or fewer points) walks by on the WMA's that has a 9 or better rule, that a hunter could shoot that deer?
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#374024 - 08/30/07 11:07 PM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Headhunter]
Red Rider 450
4 Point


Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 345
Loc: Florence,Al

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Thanks BSK and Wes...good points...good info.

Dont get me wrong, I do love to hunt and just being out there with my friends and family is what makes it all worhtwhile...heck I just got into the QDMA a few years ago and feel like I'm learning alot.

I also hunt with Alabama Swamper and we have seen a DRASTIC change in the last couple of years by just taking more does and passing the yearling bucks...and a few good food plots havent hurt us either.

I guess what I'm getting at is what we've been doing has worked and I want to manage the best we can. The 2 1/2 vs. 3 1/2 thing has been in my mind along time and I had to ask.

Thanks again for the info...good stuff.
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QDMA for life!


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#374362 - 08/31/07 08:59 AM Re: Another example of why I don't like ARs [Re: Red Rider 450]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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It's hard to explain, but while many hunters might think they would regret passing up shots at "nice" 2 1/2-yr-old bucks, once you do it --- well, at least I have had no regrets.

It grows on you --- you start looking forward to seeing those bucks again, especially the next year. Think about it. As you learn the habitats of a particular buck, doesn't that give you a much better chance of seeing him again when he's a year older? He will get smarter, more nocturnal, and more challenging to hunt, but you will have a better chance of crossing paths with him again vs. a buck you haven't been able to follow in the past.

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