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#3656030 - 04/26/14 07:44 PM Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 740
Loc: NC USA

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seasons are needed?

http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-...zzleloader.aspx

Its getting ridiculous now and not even the TWRA will be able to defend their muzzleloading seasons anymore.

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#3656058 - 04/26/14 08:07 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Doskil]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 2890
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

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This concept has been around for several years as a custom feature (using primed, modified casings with muzzleloaders), and that velocity is no improvement over smokeless muzzleloaders... But you still have to clean nasty BP substitutes.

I don't see any more issue with it than I do with some of the faster and easier to shoot compound bows and crossbows that manufacturers come out with every year, and they cost a kings ransom as well. You can still use the usually cheaper, slower, and harder to shoot recurves, longbows, or older compounds and crossbows if you like, but you don't have to. To each his own.

To me there are far more important things to worry about, and far more pressing ethical concerns in hunting than this, so I have no issue with it whatsoever.

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#3656061 - 04/26/14 08:09 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Doskil]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19256
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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My muzzleloading Savage (several years old) will outperform that "new" Remington. \:\)
Similar muzzleloading performance has been available (and at less cost!) for many years.

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#3656070 - 04/26/14 08:24 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
cecil30-30
16 Point


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 14150
Loc: Morgan Co

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My little H&R conversion will out perform that with 58grs of N120.. 200grs of triple 7???? OUCH...
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#3656128 - 04/26/14 09:43 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: cecil30-30]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3391
Loc: maury county tn

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waste of money for that particular gun.
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#3656149 - 04/26/14 10:15 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: deerhunter10]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2482
Loc: TN & Western KY

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One of the outfitters I elk hunted with had 2 Modern
MZ's
I a client showed up with a gun that couldn't cut
it out they came
One of the guides told me he shot antelope at 400 yds
with it, and they some 5 pelts...250 grans
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#3656441 - 04/27/14 01:45 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 912
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: landman
One of the outfitters I elk hunted with had 2 Modern
MZ's
I a client showed up with a gun that couldn't cut
it out they came
One of the guides told me he shot antelope at 400 yds
with it, and they some 5 pelts...250 grans


I can introduce you to a rep for Huskemaw scopes out of Cody, WY. With just a bit of load tweaking most modern in-lines can shoot 400 plus yards with there optics.

Would I do it? I dont think so, Im just a little iffy on that distance. But if I draw my WY antelope muzzle loader tag this year I will probably wish I had it!
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#3656480 - 04/27/14 03:08 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: AT Hiker]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2482
Loc: TN & Western KY

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 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
 Originally Posted By: landman
One of the outfitters I elk hunted with had 2 Modern
MZ's
I a client showed up with a gun that couldn't cut
it out they came
One of the guides told me he shot antelope at 400 yds
with it, and they some 5 pelts...250 grans


I can introduce you to a rep for Huskemaw scopes out of Cody, WY. With just a bit of load tweaking most modern in-lines can shoot 400 plus yards with there optics.

Would I do it? I dont think so, Im just a little iffy on that distance. But if I draw my WY antelope muzzle loader tag this year I will probably wish I had it!


I'm happy with my Pro-Hunter
When elk hunting my setup is good for 250yds
just takes time and practice 189 yds has been
my longest kill on a Bull with MZ
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#3656521 - 04/27/14 04:28 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 912
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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189yards is a good for a bull for sure. Hunting CO muzzle loader season?
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#3656530 - 04/27/14 04:40 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: AT Hiker]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2482
Loc: TN & Western KY

content Online
 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
189yards is a good for a bull for sure. Hunting CO muzzle loader season?


NW
And got a client with a new place in NM
with landowner tags, hope to score one of them
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#3656614 - 04/27/14 06:27 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
PillsburyDoughboy
4 Point


Registered: 11/29/13
Posts: 170
Loc: Tn

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It loads from the muzzle. It's a muzzleloader!
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#3656670 - 04/27/14 07:06 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: PillsburyDoughboy]
ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER
16 Point


Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 12539
Loc: FRANKLIN COUNTY

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I just think that price is crazy
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#3656775 - 04/27/14 08:46 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: PillsburyDoughboy]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 740
Loc: NC USA

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 Originally Posted By: PillsburyDoughboy
It loads from the muzzle. It's a muzzleloader!


LOL

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#3656785 - 04/27/14 08:57 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Doskil]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17881
Loc: Branchville

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They missed the mark. They should have made it smokeless.
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#3656794 - 04/27/14 09:11 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 14749
Loc: Lewisburg

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 Originally Posted By: Hillbilly Hunter
They missed the mark. They should have made it smokeless.



yep. its like john deere coming out with a top of the line gasoline tractor. interesting but wrong era
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#3656892 - 04/28/14 05:18 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: PillsburyDoughboy]
BMan
16 Point


Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10555
Loc: Middle TN

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 Originally Posted By: PillsburyDoughboy
It loads from the muzzle. It's a muzzleloader!

That is a fact, and that is also the law.
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#3656995 - 04/28/14 07:56 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: BMan]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 3165
Loc: Franklin County

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Yeah, I don't understand why they didn't go all the way and make it smokeless. That's a waste of the potential this gun has. It's as if they got all the way up to the finish line and then refused to win the race. All they ended up with is a different ignition system for a ML that can be loaded somewhat heavier but not equal to the Savage smokeless rifles?!
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#3657027 - 04/28/14 08:18 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Hunter 257W]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19256
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
Yeah, I don't understand why they didn't go all the way and make it smokeless. That's a waste of the potential this gun has. It's as if they got all the way up to the finish line and then refused to win the race. All they ended up with is a different ignition system for a ML that can be loaded somewhat heavier but not equal to the Savage smokeless rifles?

That be my take. But even if they had made is smokeless, it's still way overpriced, imo. You can buy tired & proven new Savage Smokeless with Accu-Trigger for less money.

Perhaps there is some limited market for this muzzleloader?
But I can figure it out. Even the Savage Smokeless can be loaded with most any black-powder substitute.

Savage and others have been offering more potent muzzleloaders than this now for over a decade.

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#3657094 - 04/28/14 09:23 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5054
Loc: Mississippi

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States that actually need muzzleloader season to increase hunter opportunity while not significantly impacting the resource place significant restrictions precluding the use of the newfangled muzzleloaders (ie, Colorado- no sabots or pyrodex pellets can be used; no smokeless powder; no scopes).

Tennessee's deer herd no longer needs protection from overharvest during muzzleloader season, so the gloves are off. In fact, Tn already kills more deer during ML weekends as during regular rifle weekends.

At this point, there is no biological reason for ML season... just a tradition and increased revenue for TWRA by selling separate tags.

I agree with the above post regarding whether one wants to spend $1000 on a 400 yard capable smokeless ML, or $150 on a beat up old TC Hawken knock-off. But I also think it has become silly to restrict other hunters (especially young children) from using centerfire rifles if they prefer during what is the best period for deer hunting (in Middle TN).

Here in MS for the upcoming 2014 deer season, we will be able to use any weapon we choose during 'primitive weapon season', as long as one still purchases the 'primitive weapon tag'. No loss of revenue to the state, and those that still prefer to see the cloud of smoke come out the end of the barrel are allowed to continue to do so if they desire.

I'd like to see one of two things happen in TN... elimiate the antiquated restriction of ML season altogether; or at least allow children under the age of 12 to use any weapon of their choice during both ML as well as centerfire season.

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#3657118 - 04/28/14 09:54 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2482
Loc: TN & Western KY

content Online
I'm not buying one
But $1,500 msrp retail means about $1,300
and I've seem used converted one for $1.100
and up

Smokeless isn't allowed in many states is the
reason

In the Savage, I had one was never impressed
sold it, buddy sent it back to factory , it never
would shoot as good as mine or his
Pro Hunter.... But it may have just been that gun
_________________________
"BUY LAND. THEY AIN'T MAKING ANY MORE OF THE STUFF"
- Will Rogers

http://www.JimmySettleLand.com

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#3657982 - 04/28/14 10:26 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
Vermin93
12 Point


Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 5729
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN

shocked Online
 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
Here in MS for the upcoming 2014 deer season, we will be able to use any weapon we choose during 'primitive weapon season', as long as one still purchases the 'primitive weapon tag'. No loss of revenue to the state, and those that still prefer to see the cloud of smoke come out the end of the barrel are allowed to continue to do so if they desire.

I'd like to see one of two things happen in TN... elimiate the antiquated restriction of ML season altogether; or at least allow children under the age of 12 to use any weapon of their choice during both ML as well as centerfire season.


I totally disagree with this.
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#3658617 - 04/29/14 05:16 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Vermin93]
Rockhound
10 Point


Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 2840
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

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I'll keep my savage smokeless
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#3659629 - 04/30/14 06:17 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Rockhound]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 14749
Loc: Lewisburg

content Online
 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
I'll keep my savage smokeless



me as well. I hopefully has bought my last muzzleloader, at least for myself. they are just a tool for me. now a fine centerfire or rimfire is a different story.
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#3660366 - 05/01/14 05:52 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
Wobblyshot1
8 Point


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 1196
Loc: Rutherford County

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I bet they have a disclaimer but somehow it's probably going to easily be convertible to smokeless.
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#3660375 - 05/01/14 06:06 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
Planking
6 Point


Registered: 09/18/13
Posts: 600
Loc: Tennessee

content Online
Modern muzzleloaders are my least favorite by far. The time of year is the best so i use one too.
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#3660470 - 05/01/14 08:15 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: redblood]
Rockhound
10 Point


Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 2840
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

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 Originally Posted By: redblood
 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
I'll keep my savage smokeless



me as well. I hopefully has bought my last muzzleloader, at least for myself. they are just a tool for me. now a fine centerfire or rimfire is a different story.


Me to I just got tired of cleaning cva
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Isaiah 40:31.... Those who wait upon The Lord .....shall renew there strength ......

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#3661052 - 05/02/14 02:01 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Rockhound]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27600
Loc: TN

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MZ is defined as loaded from the muzzle, which is what all these new guns are, simply fancy Muzzleloaders. TN doesn't now, and to my knowledge has never, had anything but a simple MZ season, never any type primitive requirements to my knowledge.
MZ season is just that, anything that requires loaded from the muzzle.

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#3661221 - 05/02/14 06:11 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
redhunterZ71
6 Point


Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 523
Loc: Cleveland, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
My muzzleloading Savage (several years old) will outperform that "new" Remington. \:\)
Similar muzzleloading performance has been available (and at less cost!) for many years.
x2
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#3661306 - 05/02/14 07:53 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Winchester]
Wobblyshot1
8 Point


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 1196
Loc: Rutherford County

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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
MZ is defined as loaded from the muzzle, which is what all these new guns are, simply fancy Muzzleloaders. TN doesn't now, and to my knowledge has never, had anything but a simple MZ season, never any type primitive requirements to my knowledge.
MZ season is just that, anything that requires loaded from the muzzle.


Other than caliber restrictions, the Tennessee law describes a muzzle loader only as being incapable of being loaded from the breech. Ironically the flintlock Ferguson rifle would be illegal in Tennessee...check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2CFFkg-_UI

Personally, I like our muzzle loading season. I'll use my flintlock and won't mind or worry about whatever everyone else is using.
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#3663893 - 05/06/14 10:35 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
infoman jr.
10 Point


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 3881
Loc: Elizabethtown, KY

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 Originally Posted By: Hillbilly Hunter
They missed the mark. They should have made it smokeless.

Agree.
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#3664808 - 05/07/14 12:55 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: infoman jr.]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27600
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: infoman jr.
 Originally Posted By: Hillbilly Hunter
They missed the mark. They should have made it smokeless.

Agree.

X2 Smokeless is the only way to fly if your looking for performance!

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#3679558 - 05/29/14 12:38 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Doskil]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9536
Loc: Memphis

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 Originally Posted By: Doskil
seasons are needed?

http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-...zzleloader.aspx

Its getting ridiculous now and not even the TWRA will be able to defend their muzzleloading seasons anymore.



I wish that TN would adopt a "primitive" season. I enjoy shooting a cap & ball blackpowder Hawken.
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#3679592 - 05/29/14 06:03 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: TAFKAP]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19256
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP
I wish that TN would adopt a "primitive" season. I enjoy shooting a cap & ball blackpowder Hawken.

I may be wrong, but am pretty sure you can enjoy shooting your cap & ball blackpowder Hawken now, during any statewide deer season segment other than the archery-only.

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#3679919 - 05/29/14 02:58 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9536
Loc: Memphis

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Well sure, but the point I was trying to make was that modern in-line muzzleloaders don't strike me as being in the spirit of intent for having a muzzleloader season. I know there's still the single-shot handicap, but with a ballistics profile more similar to a modern cartridge round, I think it'd be neat to split muzzleloader season out into a primitive-only weekend.

Just thinking aloud....I'm not complaining about it by any meansr
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#3679967 - 05/29/14 04:01 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Doskil]
KPH
10 Point


Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 3712
Loc: Hendersonville Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: Doskil
seasons are needed?

http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-...zzleloader.aspx

Its getting ridiculous now and not even the TWRA will be able to defend their muzzleloading seasons anymore.


It has gotten to the point where both archery and muzzle loading seasons are nothing but for money making.
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#3680207 - 05/29/14 09:23 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19256
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
States that actually need muzzleloader season to increase hunter opportunity while not significantly impacting the resource place significant restrictions precluding the use of the newfangled muzzleloaders (ie, Colorado- no sabots or pyrodex pellets can be used; no smokeless powder; no scopes).

Tennessee's deer herd no longer needs protection from overharvest during muzzleloader season, so the gloves are off.

In times past, the real "significant restrictions" of muzzleloader hunting in TN (having little impact to the deer herd) was mainly the fact that few people had them, and when they got them, most were quite unreliable (at least compared to today's modern inlines). But in 2014, we can expect more bucks to be killed for the year during the early muzzleloader season than in the traditional "deer" season (using centerfire rifles).

It kinda seems a bit "unfair" to those just wanting to "try" deer hunting, and those maybe not wanting/able to buy a "special" weapon, as they are less able to participate in the first opportunities before so many of the bucks have already been killed. This can even be a significant financial issue for those with children they're wanting to participate in these better deer hunting opportunities (such as the early muzzleloader segment).

And if you're a more average deer hunter, maybe only deer hunting a couple weekends a year, do you want to hunt with the most effective weapon (likely the only one you own) or the least effective weapon (you would be required to additionally purchase)? Should you be disallowed from hunting the best hunting days (by the calender and by the rut timing) simply because you are NOT a more avid hunter who owns a larger quantity of specialized weaponry?

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#3680208 - 05/29/14 09:23 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19256
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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More and more, I see much merit in simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons most enthuse them. Why should "special" weapons (where the only thing really special is one's ability to purchase them) be reason to grant special privilege via getting to hunt not just ahead of those who simply own a "deer" rifle, but in many cases the special privilege allows for the hunting of the very best rut days (when bucks move most) of the entire year?

Think about it.
A huge percentage of today's archery hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern archery equipment than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles. A huge percentage of today's muzzleloader hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern muzzleloaders than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles.

It wasn't this way when archery & muzzleloader season segments originally began. We were shooting zero percent let-off recurve bows without sights, no mechanical releases, and cedar arrows. My personal first archery deer was with just such. Our muzzleloaders were mostly sidelocks without optical sights, and were often less reliable and less effective than our recurve bows. I didn't participate in the first few years of TN's muzzleloader season, not because I didn't want to, but simply because I truly couldn't afford the extra cost at the time.

Personally, I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is in my hand. But I have to ponder whether I really deserve special privilege just because I'm an avid hunter able to own modern bows and special muzzleloaders that are far more accurate and deadly than any .30/.30 ever was. While I may spend more days afield with a bow or a muzzleloader in my hand (than a centerfire rifle), I consider myself a "deer" hunter more than a "bow" or "muzzleloader" hunter, and think many avid hunters are like me, in being more enthused about the actual hunting than the weapon in hand.

Some are more enthused about their weapons, so just hunt with what enthuses you most. The question today now becomes, "Does one deserve special privilege just because of how he loads his gun? Or weather the projectile is a deadly bullet or a deadly arrow?

We are all "deer" hunters.

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#3680227 - 05/29/14 09:43 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2482
Loc: TN & Western KY

content Online
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
More and more, I see much merit in simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons most enthuse them. Why should "special" weapons (where the only thing really special is one's ability to purchase them) be reason to grant special privilege via getting to hunt not just ahead of those who simply own a "deer" rifle, but in many cases the special privilege allows for the hunting of the very best rut days (when bucks move most) of the entire year?

Think about it.
A huge percentage of today's archery hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern archery equipment than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles. A huge percentage of today's muzzleloader hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern muzzleloaders than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles.

It wasn't this way when archery & muzzleloader season segments originally began. We were shooting zero percent let-off recurve bows without sights, no mechanical releases, and cedar arrows. My personal first archery deer was with just such. Our muzzleloaders were mostly sidelocks without optical sights, and were often less reliable and less effective than our recurve bows. I didn't participate in the first few years of TN's muzzleloader season, not because I didn't want to, but simply because I truly couldn't afford the extra cost at the time.

Personally, I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is in my hand. But I have to ponder whether I really deserve special privilege just because I'm an avid hunter able to own modern bows and special muzzleloaders that are far more accurate and deadly than any .30/.30 ever was. While I may spend more days afield with a bow or a muzzleloader in my hand (than a centerfire rifle), I consider myself a "deer" hunter more than a "bow" or "muzzleloader" hunter, and think many avid hunters are like me, in being more enthused about the actual hunting than the weapon in hand.

Some are more enthused about their weapons, so just hunt with what enthuses you most. The question today now becomes, "Does one deserve special privilege just because of how he loads his gun? Or weather the projectile is a deadly bullet or a deadly arrow?

We are all "deer" hunters.


Its the money...
Lobbyist pushed the crossbow in..
MZ same way, I'm sure they will say it was the hunters, but we know it wasn't

You have a VERY GOOD point about the MZ season, those 2 weeks will hammer more deer, and it is an added cost to be able to hunt with one. And I know several that have to wait until rifle opens to hunt, I see many youth deer rifles sold, but not so many buying a mz for their kids
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#3680296 - 05/30/14 12:07 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9536
Loc: Memphis

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
States that actually need muzzleloader season to increase hunter opportunity while not significantly impacting the resource place significant restrictions precluding the use of the newfangled muzzleloaders (ie, Colorado- no sabots or pyrodex pellets can be used; no smokeless powder; no scopes).

Tennessee's deer herd no longer needs protection from overharvest during muzzleloader season, so the gloves are off.

In times past, the real "significant restrictions" of muzzleloader hunting in TN (having little impact to the deer herd) was mainly the fact that few people had them, and when they got them, most were quite unreliable (at least compared to today's modern inlines). But in 2014, we can expect more bucks to be killed for the year during the early muzzleloader season than in the traditional "deer" season (using centerfire rifles).

It kinda seems a bit "unfair" to those just wanting to "try" deer hunting, and those maybe not wanting/able to buy a "special" weapon, as they are less able to participate in the first opportunities before so many of the bucks have already been killed. This can even be a significant financial issue for those with children they're wanting to participate in these better deer hunting opportunities (such as the early muzzleloader segment).

And if you're a more average deer hunter, maybe only deer hunting a couple weekends a year, do you want to hunt with the most effective weapon (likely the only one you own) or the least effective weapon (you would be required to additionally purchase)? Should you be disallowed from hunting the best hunting days (by the calender and by the rut timing) simply because you are NOT a more avid hunter who owns a larger quantity of specialized weaponry?


So by that virtue, should we eliminate archery season? I can buy a cheapo Hawken for a quarter of the cost of a name-brand compound bow……should we open rifle season in September to let everyone have a chance?

I like the 3-season system in place now because there is the intent to graduate the difficulty and methods. But it seems disingenuous to call the 4-weeks between archery and rifle "muzzleloader" as if it is a handicapped system. (3) Pyrodex pellets and a high-performance sabot round are very likely to outperform my Marlin .30-30. If they intend to really handicap the hunters, I think it'd be appropriate to have a "primitive" season for cap & ball rifles, flintlocks, and blackpowder revolvers (maybe for 2 weeks after archery) followed by a "muzzleloader" season, where a single-shot rifle might also be allowed.

Again, just a thought.
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#3680421 - 05/30/14 07:41 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
scn
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 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
More and more, I see much merit in simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons most enthuse them. Why should "special" weapons (where the only thing really special is one's ability to purchase them) be reason to grant special privilege via getting to hunt not just ahead of those who simply own a "deer" rifle, but in many cases the special privilege allows for the hunting of the very best rut days (when bucks move most) of the entire year?

Think about it.
A huge percentage of today's archery hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern archery equipment than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles. A huge percentage of today's muzzleloader hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern muzzleloaders than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles.

It wasn't this way when archery & muzzleloader season segments originally began. We were shooting zero percent let-off recurve bows without sights, no mechanical releases, and cedar arrows. My personal first archery deer was with just such. Our muzzleloaders were mostly sidelocks without optical sights, and were often less reliable and less effective than our recurve bows. I didn't participate in the first few years of TN's muzzleloader season, not because I didn't want to, but simply because I truly couldn't afford the extra cost at the time.

Personally, I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is in my hand. But I have to ponder whether I really deserve special privilege just because I'm an avid hunter able to own modern bows and special muzzleloaders that are far more accurate and deadly than any .30/.30 ever was. While I may spend more days afield with a bow or a muzzleloader in my hand (than a centerfire rifle), I consider myself a "deer" hunter more than a "bow" or "muzzleloader" hunter, and think many avid hunters are like me, in being more enthused about the actual hunting than the weapon in hand.

Some are more enthused about their weapons, so just hunt with what enthuses you most. The question today now becomes, "Does one deserve special privilege just because of how he loads his gun? Or weather the projectile is a deadly bullet or a deadly arrow?

We are all "deer" hunters.


Its the money...
Lobbyist pushed the crossbow in..
MZ same way, I'm sure they will say it was the hunters, but we know it wasn't

You have a VERY GOOD point about the MZ season, those 2 weeks will hammer more deer, and it is an added cost to be able to hunt with one. And I know several that have to wait until rifle opens to hunt, I see many youth deer rifles sold, but not so many buying a mz for their kids


I was pretty much the administrator when the first crossbow for disabled hunters started. Trying to fairly deal with the level of disabilities led to a series of relaxing the levels by the Commission. After several years of increasing numbers, it was finally judged to not be a biological issue and was legalized for all hunters.

Lobbyists had ZERO to do with getting it legalized in TN.


Edited by scn (05/30/14 07:41 AM)
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#3680437 - 05/30/14 08:08 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: TAFKAP]
Wes Parrish
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I'm not one calling for an elimination of either archery or muzzleloader season segments. Just saying I'm more and more seeing the merits of simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons enthuse them most. Even though, for very avid hunters like myself, it could mean fewer days afield and lower deer limits. But I bet it would be a more popular idea with the vast majority of "deer" hunters?

I am opposed to any new "special" privileges just because a certain group of enthusiasts about a certain weapon want a "special" time in the woods, just for them.

And it's now a valid point that both today's archery equipment and today's muzzleloaders are no longer the "special challenges" they were when TN began both the archery and the muzzleloader season segments. Originally, much of the reason these "special" seasons were ALLOWED was because it was felt so few deer would be harvested that they were biologically of little issue to the deer management.

 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP
So by that virtue, should we eliminate archery season?
I like the 3-season system in place now because there is the intent to graduate the difficulty and methods. But it seems disingenuous to call the 4-weeks between archery and rifle "muzzleloader" as if it is a handicapped system. (3) Pyrodex pellets and a high-performance sabot round are very likely to outperform my Marlin .30-30.

No, I personally am not wanting to eliminate archery season, and agree with you regarding what's quoted above. Just saying granting even yet more special weapon privileges is going the wrong direction, as it becomes more a divider of hunters than a uniting of hunters. If anything, I'd just change the muzzleloader season segment to "anything goes" (as in the traditional "rifle" segment). But would not grant special privilege to only a particular centerfire gun or caliber during muzzleloader(as they have done in Mississippi).

My thoughts are more about promoting deer hunting and uniting deer hunters, than about dividing hunters by promoting special interests in particular weapons.

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#3680458 - 05/30/14 08:44 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
megalomaniac
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Mississippi does not have any weapon restriction during primitive weapon season from this point forward. You can use any weapon you choose, but must still buy the primitive weapon license to hunt during that timeframe (so there is no revenue lost... in fact, it will probably result in an INREASE in revenue to the state, as some who didn't bother hunting with a traditional muzzleloader will now be able to hunt with their regular centerfire rifle if they so choose and purchase the extra license).

It is the wave of the future... I suspect most states with an abundance of big game will be going this route.

Personally, I could care less for myself... I have 5 muzzleloaders. But I'm at the point where I'd rather my kids shoot a deer than myself.... and my kids are too young to handle the recoil of a muzzleloader. So in essence, they are being excluded from hunting during the most productive times on my TN farms. And no, I'm not going out to buy yet another stupid hunting device- crossbow- for them to use... tired of playing the game of having to buy a million different weapons when there is no sound biological reason to do so.

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#3680464 - 05/30/14 08:50 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
WRbowhunter
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I said this in another post. Another GREAT thing about hunting in TN you can hunt the way you want. In this case if you want to bow hunt, then buy a bow, IF you want to Muzzleloader hunt by one of those. To me it just like Trophy hunting vs Meat hunting. Just because you don't want to bow hunt then no one should get to hunt when you can't just like no one should be able to shoot small bucks because your trying to trophy hunt.TWRA does a great job in keeping everyone's options available. I will say this though I was against crossbows being used during Archery season but I was wrong. While they do have some advantages to a compound they also have some disadvantages and anything that gets more people into Archery or hunting for that matter is a good thing.
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#3680485 - 05/30/14 09:13 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: WRbowhunter]
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Does anyone believe that, if we go to just "deer" season, that there may be a decline in archery or ML hunting? I love to hunt deer, and would probably use a rifle just about exclusively bc of the effectiveness of the kill, but having different segments just adds to the diversity for me. I won't say that it forces me to use a different weapon, but it does expand and enrich my hunting experience, imo of course. I know, I know, I could use whatever weapon I choose, anytime I choose, but I do like having a weapon specific segmented season, and it also doesn't hurt the herd dynamics either.
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#3680507 - 05/30/14 09:31 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: MUP]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: MUP
Does anyone believe that, if we go to just "deer" season, that there may be a decline in archery or ML hunting?

VERY FEW deer hunters would head afield with either a bow or a muzzleloader if more effective weapons were legal instead. Just note now how few carry a bow during the TN rifle season. So, "yes" there would be a dramatic decline in archery and ML hunting.

On the other hand, there might be an INCREASE in deer hunting, which is why I stated earlier this COULD necessitate (but I believe only slightly) lower deer limits and fewer deer hunting days annually.

Perhaps a better question might become:

"How many more people would be going deer hunting, if 'deer' season simply began October 15,
ended December 31, and all hunters could use whatever weapon they preferred?
Perhaps with a simple 2-buck limit, 2-doe limit, with additional antlerless opportunities in certain units/counties?"


Now, the more selfish side of me really doesn't want any more deer hunters afield, and I personally enjoy having the woods more to myself when I'm deer hunting in October (and limited to a bow). But at the same time, I realize the deer herd is expanding it's range, and increasing it's numbers, while the number of hunters (particularly the number of collective hunter hours afield annually) is decreasing.

My opinion is we still might not have that many more hunters afield in October even if "any" weapon were legal. Such a change would mainly just make it "easier" for the less avid hunters and less costly for anyone to participate in either going deer hunting and/or in going deer hunting more often. Sure would "simplify" things.

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#3680520 - 05/30/14 09:38 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
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And at the same time we "ponder" all these thoughts, let's keep in mind there is a growing opportunity for archery-only deer hunting, whereby the "archery-only" is for safety concerns both in and near metropolitan and suburban areas. A great example of this is President's Island WMA being "archery only" because the City of Memphis will not allow firearms to be used there.

For those who are truly more into archery than deer hunting, many archery enthusiasts form or join archery-only deer hunting clubs, whereby the land they hunt is limited to archery by themselves, even though the state regs would otherwise allow gun hunting.

I am all for promoting archery, just questioning whether that special interest deserves additional special privilege (within our statewide hunting regs) when it comes to "statewide" deer hunting.

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#3680524 - 05/30/14 09:41 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
woodsman87
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Ready for muzzleloader season....
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#3680531 - 05/30/14 09:49 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
Mississippi does not have any weapon restriction during primitive weapon season from this point forward. You can use any weapon you choose, but must still buy the primitive weapon license to hunt during that timeframe (so there is no revenue lost... in fact, it will probably result in an INREASE in revenue to the state, as some who didn't bother hunting with a traditional muzzleloader will now be able to hunt with their regular centerfire rifle if they so choose and purchase the extra license).

It is the wave of the future... I suspect most states with an abundance of big game will be going this route.

Personally, I could care less for myself... I have 5 muzzleloaders. But I'm at the point where I'd rather my kids shoot a deer than myself.... and my kids are too young to handle the recoil of a muzzleloader. So in essence, they are being excluded from hunting during the most productive times on my TN farms. And no, I'm not going out to buy yet another stupid hunting device- crossbow- for them to use... tired of playing the game of having to buy a million different weapons when there is no sound biological reason to do so.

I'm actually glad to hear Mississippi made this change, as I thought it was just another caving to special interests when they started allowing "certain" centerfire guns/cartridges during the muzzleloader season. What they did is a great de facto expansion of the "juvenile" deer-hunting opportunities, and may very well help get more kids into hunting.

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#3680550 - 05/30/14 10:03 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
WRbowhunter
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Why is having a special Juvenile hunt a very effective way into getting more kids hunting but having an Archery season and MZ season not. Kids can hunt any time during deer season . Could be by having a "special season" you draw importance to the diversity and traditions of hunting and opens up that area of hunting that maybe people would not try unless there was a special season for it. Again everyone in the state has the opportunity to hunt all styles of hunting which keep traditions alive.
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#3680579 - 05/30/14 10:37 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
Mike Belt
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If given the opportunity to hit the woods at any time with any weapon I'd personally opt for my most effective weapon...my rifle. Having said that I still like the "progressiveness" involved in difficulty per weapon type of hunting season from hardest to harder to hard. Each change in hunting season makes me appreciate more both the weapon I'm laying down and the weapon I'm picking up. However, to sort of contradict myself, I do believe that archery season (or the presence and influx of hunters/deer scouters prior to "prime time hunting") probably saves more bucks down the road during rifle season than they are the demise of during archery season itself. If deer season was any weapon I don't doubt more hunters would be afield earlier making it harder hunting when that prime time came.

I use an inline muzzleloader and granted, cleaning it is more involved and time consuming. I still find it comical that so many complain about that process. During hunting season it's not like you're firing shot after shot with it or that one can't spare 15 minutes of time for cleaning it when they do. Human nature to complain I guess?

As for muzzleloader season's split into different types of weaponry seasons I'd vote against it.
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#3680944 - 05/30/14 09:13 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
landman
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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
More and more, I see much merit in simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons most enthuse them. Why should "special" weapons (where the only thing really special is one's ability to purchase them) be reason to grant special privilege via getting to hunt not just ahead of those who simply own a "deer" rifle, but in many cases the special privilege allows for the hunting of the very best rut days (when bucks move most) of the entire year?

Think about it.
A huge percentage of today's archery hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern archery equipment than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles. A huge percentage of today's muzzleloader hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern muzzleloaders than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles.

It wasn't this way when archery & muzzleloader season segments originally began. We were shooting zero percent let-off recurve bows without sights, no mechanical releases, and cedar arrows. My personal first archery deer was with just such. Our muzzleloaders were mostly sidelocks without optical sights, and were often less reliable and less effective than our recurve bows. I didn't participate in the first few years of TN's muzzleloader season, not because I didn't want to, but simply because I truly couldn't afford the extra cost at the time.

Personally, I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is in my hand. But I have to ponder whether I really deserve special privilege just because I'm an avid hunter able to own modern bows and special muzzleloaders that are far more accurate and deadly than any .30/.30 ever was. While I may spend more days afield with a bow or a muzzleloader in my hand (than a centerfire rifle), I consider myself a "deer" hunter more than a "bow" or "muzzleloader" hunter, and think many avid hunters are like me, in being more enthused about the actual hunting than the weapon in hand.

Some are more enthused about their weapons, so just hunt with what enthuses you most. The question today now becomes, "Does one deserve special privilege just because of how he loads his gun? Or weather the projectile is a deadly bullet or a deadly arrow?

We are all "deer" hunters.


Its the money...
Lobbyist pushed the crossbow in..
MZ same way, I'm sure they will say it was the hunters, but we know it wasn't

You have a VERY GOOD point about the MZ season, those 2 weeks will hammer more deer, and it is an added cost to be able to hunt with one. And I know several that have to wait until rifle opens to hunt, I see many youth deer rifles sold, but not so many buying a mz for their kids


I was pretty much the administrator when the first crossbow for disabled hunters started. Trying to fairly deal with the level of disabilities led to a series of relaxing the levels by the Commission. After several years of increasing numbers, it was finally judged to not be a biological issue and was legalized for all hunters.

Lobbyists had ZERO to do with getting it legalized in TN.


If the cross bow industry hadn't have made the push
Years ago in other states, Which made them produced
in great numbers and more popular, thus TN saw more
handicap hunters using them. So they DID have
a lot to do with it
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#3681015 - 05/30/14 10:35 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
scn
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 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
More and more, I see much merit in simply having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever weapons most enthuse them. Why should "special" weapons (where the only thing really special is one's ability to purchase them) be reason to grant special privilege via getting to hunt not just ahead of those who simply own a "deer" rifle, but in many cases the special privilege allows for the hunting of the very best rut days (when bucks move most) of the entire year?

Think about it.
A huge percentage of today's archery hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern archery equipment than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles. A huge percentage of today's muzzleloader hunters are very avid and accomplished deer hunters who are more "effective" with their modern muzzleloaders than less experienced hunters are with centerfire rifles.

It wasn't this way when archery & muzzleloader season segments originally began. We were shooting zero percent let-off recurve bows without sights, no mechanical releases, and cedar arrows. My personal first archery deer was with just such. Our muzzleloaders were mostly sidelocks without optical sights, and were often less reliable and less effective than our recurve bows. I didn't participate in the first few years of TN's muzzleloader season, not because I didn't want to, but simply because I truly couldn't afford the extra cost at the time.

Personally, I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is in my hand. But I have to ponder whether I really deserve special privilege just because I'm an avid hunter able to own modern bows and special muzzleloaders that are far more accurate and deadly than any .30/.30 ever was. While I may spend more days afield with a bow or a muzzleloader in my hand (than a centerfire rifle), I consider myself a "deer" hunter more than a "bow" or "muzzleloader" hunter, and think many avid hunters are like me, in being more enthused about the actual hunting than the weapon in hand.

Some are more enthused about their weapons, so just hunt with what enthuses you most. The question today now becomes, "Does one deserve special privilege just because of how he loads his gun? Or weather the projectile is a deadly bullet or a deadly arrow?

We are all "deer" hunters.


Its the money...
Lobbyist pushed the crossbow in..
MZ same way, I'm sure they will say it was the hunters, but we know it wasn't

You have a VERY GOOD point about the MZ season, those 2 weeks will hammer more deer, and it is an added cost to be able to hunt with one. And I know several that have to wait until rifle opens to hunt, I see many youth deer rifles sold, but not so many buying a mz for their kids


I was pretty much the administrator when the first crossbow for disabled hunters started. Trying to fairly deal with the level of disabilities led to a series of relaxing the levels by the Commission. After several years of increasing numbers, it was finally judged to not be a biological issue and was legalized for all hunters.

Lobbyists had ZERO to do with getting it legalized in TN.


If the cross bow industry hadn't have made the push
Years ago in other states, Which made them produced
in great numbers and more popular, thus TN saw more
handicap hunters using them. So they DID have
a lot to do with it


I can't speak for other states. Lobbyist had ZERO to do with any of the decisions made in TN.
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#3683289 - 06/04/14 07:45 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
knightrider
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#3683905 - 06/04/14 09:03 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: deerhunter10]
Boone 58
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 Originally Posted By: deerhunter10
waste of money for that particular gun.


X~2............I love the MZ season, what is the problem with it?............I would buy a smokeless Savage before even thinking about this one.
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#3684284 - 06/05/14 11:23 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Boone 58]
Winchester
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I think our seasons are fine just the way they are. I would hate to see the heritages lost to simply having a "deer season".
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#3684989 - 06/06/14 11:15 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Winchester]
megalomaniac
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LOL, 'heritages' are already lost in ML season... just look at the gun that started this topic and all the references to savage smokeless.

Love him or hate him, Tony Knight ended the 'heritage' portion of 'primitive' weapon season.

Now I don't blame hunters... why not push the envelope and develop new technologies which nonexistent when the original seasons were made and use a weapon which extends effective distance for that season by 3 or 4 fold...

But if we are keeping ML season for the heritage, we need to go back to percussion caps, patch and ball or buffalo bullets, and black powder. The newfangled 'primitive' weapons just force the majority of the hunters to spend extra money to keep up with the Jones'es

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#3685165 - 06/06/14 05:34 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
LOL, 'heritages' are already lost in ML season... just look at the gun that started this topic and all the references to savage smokeless.

Love him or hate him, Tony Knight ended the 'heritage' portion of 'primitive' weapon season.

While you make a valid point, I'll take it back a step farther and just ask exactly what heritage are we talking about?

Our real deer hunting heritage has been with the most effective weapons of the times. We have a heritage of deer hunting, more than any heritage of special enthusiasms for particular weapons.

Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett would never have headed afield with a flintlock muzzleloader had they owned a gun anything like a modern centerfire rifle. As soon as Native Americans gained access to guns, they essentially stopped hunting with spears and arrows.

Our real heritage is hunting.

As previously stated, I am not pushing to do away with our "special weapons" season segments (archery & muzzleloader) in Tennessee. I'm just generally opposed to expanding them, instead of or at the expense of hunting in general (with any weapon of choice).

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#3685201 - 06/06/14 06:53 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
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By the way, my personal early deer-hunting heritage includes zero muzzleloader season segments. I was introduced to deer hunting by my grandfather and uncle. Neither of them ever owned a muzzleloader, and neither did I until after I had killed scores of deer and was about 25 years old.

I was in my 20's when TWRA started their first "special" muzzleloader season segment. Prior to that, the archery season ended on October 31st, and there simply was no deer hunting until "gun" season opened in late November. Like many other avid deer hunters, I had no "special" interest in any muzzleloader. I just had a special interest in getting to do more deer hunting. But like many young family people (and juvenile hunters), I couldn't justify the extra costs of muzzleloading, and didn't participate initially.

In retrospect, instead of creating a special interest muzzleloader season segment back in the 80's, it would have been more beneficial to more hunters (particularly juvenile hunters, the real future of our hunting heritage) had both the existing archery and rifle deer seasons simply had days added to close that gap between them. This would have created new deer hunting opportunities for all deer hunters, without causing anyone to have to spend extra money in buying a different weapon to participate.

Imagine. Archery season could have simply been extended until around November 15, then firearm deer season could begin. And if you wanted to use a muzzleloader during the firearm season segment, fine. So simple, nothing new to buy. There would be no such thing as a Savage Smokeless muzzleloader, and few of us ever would have heard of Tony Knight.

It is hunting that is most special, not the weapon.
In fact, my first many deer that were killed with a gun, were killed with the same shotgun I used for small game. Didn't even own a centerfire deer rifle until I was 20 years old.

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#3685202 - 06/06/14 06:54 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
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I'm just thankful the same "special" season-segment logic isn't applied to fishing as is being applied to hunting. Otherwise, we'd have cane-pole fishing tackle only during the month of March, cane-pole-fly-fishing tackle only during the month of April, and all-tackle-goes come May.

We have a heritage of hunting & fishing, much more so than any "heritage" of doing so with a particular weapon or pole.

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#3685475 - 06/07/14 11:43 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
BMan
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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
LOL, 'heritages' are already lost in ML season...

And bow season, too. ;\)
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#3685485 - 06/07/14 12:06 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: BMan]
MUP
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Muzzleloaders can be bought for cheap, IF you don't feel you have to have a new one. Speaking for myself, growing up I never had a new firearm of any type. I started hunting with my Dads ol Browning shotgun, and when I was deemed ready, my first gun was a ss Stevens 20 ga. All this to say that I don't see how having "special" weapon segments denies anyone from participating in them from a financial standpoint. Jmo
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#3685505 - 06/07/14 01:12 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: MUP]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: MUP
Muzzleloaders can be bought for cheap, IF you don't feel you have to have a new one.

Low-cost and cheap are matters of perspective.
When the muzzleloader season segment first began in Tennessee (back in the 80's) you were not likely to find a "used" muzzleloader, much less a cheap one. The "market" for muzzleloaders was largely created by the "special" privilege season segment that allowed deer hunting with a gun, albeit a muzzleloading one, BEFORE the gun deer season (traditionally) opened.

New muzzleloaders started selling like hotcakes, not so much because of any real interest in muzzleloaders, but mostly due to an interest in getting to deer hunt (with a gun) more and sooner, most particularly, BEFORE most other gun hunters.

For those living on a tight budget at the time (I was one of them), it was hard to justify the cost, which wasn't just the gun. Had it been legal, I'd have been totally happy "participating" with an old 20-ga Stevens. \:\) Yes, very basic used muzzleloaders are available today at relatively lower cost than they were back in the 80's. So are good used shotguns.

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#3685507 - 06/07/14 01:18 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
MUP
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\:D I'm still living on a pretty tight budget! That's why I still have a cheap ml and still use pyrodex powder! \:\)
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#3685508 - 06/07/14 01:24 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: MUP]
Wes Parrish
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Shame you can't just use your shotgun. \:D
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#3685593 - 06/07/14 05:02 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: MUP]
EastTNHunter
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 Originally Posted By: MUP
:D I'm still living on a pretty tight budget! That's why I still have a cheap ml and still use pyrodex powder! \:\)


Hey now! What about that Blackhorn 209 that I picked up for you?

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#3685690 - 06/07/14 07:21 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: EastTNHunter]
mike243
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he just wanted to hold it not shoot it lol
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#3685887 - 06/08/14 05:40 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: EastTNHunter]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: EastTNHunter
 Originally Posted By: MUP
:D I'm still living on a pretty tight budget! That's why I still have a cheap ml and still use pyrodex powder! \:\)


Hey now! What about that Blackhorn 209 that I picked up for you?


It's for sale! \:D Along with that R19! ;\)
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#3686743 - 06/09/14 01:27 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Wes Parrish]
TAFKAP
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
And at the same time we "ponder" all these thoughts, let's keep in mind there is a growing opportunity for archery-only deer hunting, whereby the "archery-only" is for safety concerns both in and near metropolitan and suburban areas. A great example of this is President's Island WMA being "archery only" because the City of Memphis will not allow firearms to be used there.

For those who are truly more into archery than deer hunting, many archery enthusiasts form or join archery-only deer hunting clubs, whereby the land they hunt is limited to archery by themselves, even though the state regs would otherwise allow gun hunting.

I am all for promoting archery, just questioning whether that special interest deserves additional special privilege (within our statewide hunting regs) when it comes to "statewide" deer hunting.



I guess that's the point. With the success of the past few decades of herd management, is there a point to having three separate seasons, dictated by the manner in which a projectile is flung? It's been said that the herd wasn't dramatically affected by the introduction of crossbows, and the muzzleloading season is proving to be even more successful than archery season.

So is there any movement by the TWRA into tweaking the seasons?

With modern "muzzleloaders" and their increasingly similar to centerfire ballistics, is there any point to a separate season anymore because of the manner in which bullets fly down the barrel? Is M/L season maintained for tradition's sake, or is there still the perceived belief that a hunter is disadvantaged over a centerfire?

From the populist standpoint of "recruiting more hunters = success", I like the idea of a "run what you brung" mentality. But will the population support rifle hunting in October?
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#3686838 - 06/09/14 02:55 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: TAFKAP]
Wes Parrish
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Let me restate I have no particular issue with our current season segments of "archery" followed by "muzzleloader" followed by "gun". I do see increasing merit to the idea of just having a statewide "deer" season with no "special" privileges to those who choose a bow over a gun. But am by no means wanting to make a sudden wholesale change to such a system (much like they've done in South Carolina), keeping in mind that aside and independent from "statewide regs", archery-only hunting opportunities will be rapidly increasing at more localized levels.

 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP
Is M/L season maintained for tradition's sake, or is there still the perceived belief that a hunter is disadvantaged over a centerfire?

From the populist standpoint of "recruiting more hunters = success", I like the idea of a "run what you brung" mentality. But will the population support rifle hunting in October?

I would again ask, "What tradition?". See my previous posts.

Will the population support rifle hunting in October?
Absolutely. Are we that much different "statewide" in terms of habitat, hunters, and deer population than the bordering state of Georgia?

For years, most of Georgia has had a rifle season running from mid-October until January. Overall, the net result of how they're doing things in Georgia doesn't seem that different than Tennessee's net result = fairly healthy deer herd & mostly happy deer hunters?

Not everything can be compared "apples-to-apples", and statewide, Georgia does have a 2-buck limit. Of course, many Tennessee deer hunters have for years stated their preference for a 2-buck limit here as well. However, in Georgia statewide, one of the 2 bucks must have at least 4 points on one side. And in 9 counties, there are antler restrictions on both of the 2 bucks.

It also appears "urban sprawl" has hit parts of Georgia harder than Tennessee (at least in terms of how it's effecting more localized deer regulations). All to most of four Georgia counties are archery only.

Of further note, South Carolina has a "rifle" deer season opening no later than early October and running into January (opens in August or September in much of State). "Statewide" the South Carolina buck limit is no less than five (no annual limit in many counties).

Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina deer hunters all seem pretty much "happy" with their deer hunting, no matter what weapon they carry afield. While debatable, it appears Georgia provides better prospects for taking quality bucks, even though Georgia hunters generally have a lot more rifle deer-hunting days than TN deer hunters.

But generally speaking, increased firearm hunting days will reduce the age structure and/or "quality" of the bucks. Those increased gun-hunting days can be off-set with lower buck limits and/or antler restrictions. Again, note Georgia has a statewide buck limit of two, with statewide antler restrictions applying to one of those two.

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#3686905 - 06/09/14 04:06 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
KPH
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The only reason I bow hunt or muzzle load hunt is to stretch out my season. If I had my druthers it would be center fir only.
How many if it was only center fire would not even pick up a bow or muzzle? If honest I bet more than a few.
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#3686981 - 06/09/14 05:45 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: KPH]
mike243
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I love muzzle loader season & have killed more deer with a smoke pole than any other weapon. Id never vote for that season to be eliminated & would vote any weapon before extending bow season. I carried my muzzle loader/savage up until the last day of season last year. I hunted with what was legal & what I wanted to & didn't care what others used. I don't care what others do as long as its legal. gonna thump all I can this year. Got glasses on order & may see more deer this year lol
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#3687439 - 06/10/14 08:55 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: KPH]
knightrider
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oct 15- dec 31 DEER season, any weapon! when i bring this up people say how the herd will suffer i say bull feathers, set limits accordingly and let people hunt how they wish within limits of the law.
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#3687674 - 06/10/14 01:09 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: knightrider]
KPH
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 Originally Posted By: knightrider
oct 15- dec 31 DEER season, any weapon! when i bring this up people say how the herd will suffer i say bull feathers, set limits accordingly and let people hunt how they wish within limits of the law.

I think you are right, but I would start it sooner. You would be surprised at how many would go opening morning and that would be it. I bet most would leave there bow or muzzle loader at home, even if they knew they could use it.
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#3687733 - 06/10/14 02:13 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: KPH]
Winchester
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Why do we need a change in seasons at all? Its been working great for decades now! If its not broken don't fix it!
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#3688024 - 06/10/14 08:27 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Winchester]
Bowdacious
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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Why do we need a change in seasons at all? Its been working great for decades now! If its not broken don't fix it!

Exactly! My bow won't shoot as far as my mz- my mz won't shoot as far as my rifle. I like that each segment is different.
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#3688388 - 06/11/14 09:09 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Winchester]
KPH
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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Why do we need a change in seasons at all? Its been working great for decades now! If its not broken don't fix it!

Normally I am the one who says this, but I just don't see any reason to have three seasons, except for the money I don't think we would.
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#3688451 - 06/11/14 10:06 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: KPH]
WRbowhunter
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Well Im no expert on the matter but what makes anyone think that just because we went to "one" season that the hunting fee would not go up to match existing revenue. What Extra expenses would the state safe by having "deer Season"?
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#3688489 - 06/11/14 10:41 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Bowdacious]
MUP
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That would make bowhunters wearing orange mandatory too. I just like it the way it is. Like Win said, it's not hurting anything.
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#3688749 - 06/11/14 02:37 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: WRbowhunter]
knightrider
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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
Well Im no expert on the matter but what makes anyone think that just because we went to "one" season that the hunting fee would not go up to match existing revenue. What Extra expenses would the state safe by having "deer Season"?
i would willingly pay more for that kind of season
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#3689102 - 06/11/14 08:17 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Winchester]
landman
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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Why do we need a change in seasons at all? Its been working great for decades now! If its not broken don't fix it!


Well actually it hasn't been the same for decades
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#3689144 - 06/11/14 08:47 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: landman]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: landman
Well actually it hasn't been the same for decades

That's "actually" a very good point.

Prior to recently, there WAS a 1-buck limit during the November muzzleloader season segment. Since the statewide annual buck limit was either 2 or 3, HAVING a 1-buck limit during this November muzzleloader made this "early" special-privilege a little more palatable to the majority of deer hunters who were "modern" centerfire gun deer hunters only and not participating in the "pre" hunt.

Keep this in the context that a majority of TN's deer hunters (at least until recently) did not muzzleloader hunt. I don't think a majority do now, but it may be close in part because of recent changes which have given additional special privilege to the early muzzleloading deer season which PRECEDES the traditional "deer" season. NOW, we're starting to see a majority of our annual buck harvest happening during the early muzzleloader season BEFORE traditional "deer" season.

Part of the recent additional special privilege has been increasing the buck limit (during the early November muzzleloader) from 1 to 3 bucks. Then, the number of early November muzzleloader hunting days was DOUBLED.

Is this not a huge change?
Doubling the days, and tripling the buck limit BEFORE a majority of Tennessee's deer hunters could deer hunt with the basic deer hunting license?

Prior to this, for about 2 decades, we had only half this many early November muzzleloading days, and a 1-buck limit. Prior to that, we had no muzzleloading season at all. That's right, going back about 3 decades, we had a CLOSED deer season from the last day of archery on October 31st each year UNTIL the traditional "deer" season opened a few days before Thanksgiving.

Me, personally, I'm taking full advantage of this new early muzzleloader "special" privilege. As an avid hunter using a modern smokeless muzzleloader, this is just an early gun-hunting "special" bonanza for me. To those without a muzzleloader, may not be so "special".

Again, I'm not saying change anything (regarding the season segments). But I do see the merit in just having a "deer" season, and letting the hunters hunt with whatever they prefer.

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#3691864 - 06/15/14 08:19 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Winchester]
megalomaniac
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not trying to single you out.... but this makes no sense to me... maybe I'm reading it wrong
 Originally Posted By: mike243
I love muzzle loader season... Id never vote for that season to be eliminated.... didn't care what others used. I don't care what others do as long as its legal.


I'm not advocating making smokepoles illegal... just use any weapon you prefer.... if you like to use your smokepole, you can continue to do so... but I don't think others should be restricted. Much like crossbow season... if you prefer to use a crossbow during archery, it's fine with me... I still prefer to use a compound.

 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Why do we need a change in seasons at all? Its been working great for decades now! If its not broken don't fix it!


It IS broken when there is no biological reason to exclude a segment of the hunting population that either cannot afford another firearm or who are too young to use that particular firearm (my youngest child).

I'll freely admit... I had no qualms against ML season until my kids got old enough to hunt- in fact, I didn't even think twice about it. Now with 3 small kids who love to hunt with dad, it is very, very frustrating for them and me seeing them miss out on the very best days of our TN rut due to the fact they cannot handle the recoil of a ML. If TN must have a ML season, put it back to the middle of Dec like it used to be, or even at the end of the season.... just not the peak of the rut...

OR.. move ML season to the last week of October, and let the kids have the 2nd week of November all to themselves.

OR... better yet, just get rid of an antiquated season that has no biological benefit to the herd.

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#3692108 - 06/16/14 10:14 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
Setterman
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Count me as a vote in favor of deer season without the ridiculous weapon classifications. Open the season on x date and close it on x date, have a season limit and be done with it.
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#3692479 - 06/16/14 07:24 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Setterman]
scn
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Just curious on what the vote would be if going to an any weapon season caused about a month to be lopped off the season to take into account the increased kill?
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#3692528 - 06/16/14 08:05 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
timberjack86
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Just curious on what the vote would be if going to an any weapon season caused about a month to be lopped off the season to take into account the increased kill?
Fine with me!
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#3692536 - 06/16/14 08:07 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
KPH
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I don't think it will ever go to one season for the simple fact the people who make bows and muzzle loaders will scream bloody murder.
Personally as far as lopping off a month I wouldn't care as I don't bow hunt all that much.
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#3692553 - 06/16/14 08:15 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
knightrider
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Just curious on what the vote would be if going to an any weapon season caused about a month to be lopped off the season to take into account the increased kill?
it would be fine, run it late oct to mid dec and set bag limits accordingly to handle the xtra firearms. heck I would pay double license fee to make up for all the extra tag crap to just make it a deer license
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#3692722 - 06/17/14 05:19 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Just curious on what the vote would be if going to an any weapon season caused about a month to be lopped off the season to take into account the increased kill?


I'm all for as much time in the woods as I can get. Heck I even want to see an extension into Jan for our secondary rut time.
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#3692727 - 06/17/14 05:48 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
Setterman
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Just curious on what the vote would be if going to an any weapon season caused about a month to be lopped off the season to take into account the increased kill?


Fine with me, take out the early stuff in September and early October, and some at the end as well. Concentrate the season during the peak times, and leave them alone the rest of the time.

IMO far more damage is done to deer hunting by early season bowhunters then most people realize. When I stopped hunting early on my places and waited until later in the cycle the quality of deer I killed and viewed went up dramatically.

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#3692796 - 06/17/14 08:23 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Setterman]
knightrider
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 Originally Posted By: Setterman
 Originally Posted By: scn
Just curious on what the vote would be if going to an any weapon season caused about a month to be lopped off the season to take into account the increased kill?


Fine with me, take out the early stuff in September and early October, and some at the end as well. Concentrate the season during the peak times, and leave them alone the rest of the time.

IMO far more damage is done to deer hunting by early season bowhunters then most people realize. When I stopped hunting early on my places and waited until later in the cycle the quality of deer I killed and viewed went up dramatically.
yes sir i learned this as well, my best places get no bow disturbance they are saved for the rut!!!!!!!!
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#3692840 - 06/17/14 09:31 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: knightrider]
Winchester
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The whole question of this thread was about different "season" segments, and YES they have been the same for DECADES. We have had Archery seasons, MZ seasons, and Gun seasons, separately for Decades now and its been working just fine like I stated earlier!
Deer hunting in TN is the best its ever been in any of our lifetimes right NOW, why make MAJOR changes to whats working when its not necessary?

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#3692848 - 06/17/14 09:44 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
megalomaniac
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Just curious on what the vote would be if going to an any weapon season caused about a month to be lopped off the season to take into account the increased kill?


I'd love for the season to be shortened.

But why do you think the kill would go up by changing ML season to 'any weapon season'??? Current ML kill is already equivalent to rifle season day for day. In other words, eliminating ML only season would not increase kill one bit over current kills. Maybe I'm wrong about what would happen... but biologically I do not belive there is ANY benefit or preservation of addiditional deer by having a 'ML' season.

Now if you are concerned we are already killing too many deer, then, yes, ML seeason should be restricted to primitive weapons, eliminate in-lines, pellets, sabots, and scopes. Doing that would reduce the harvest during ML season and preserve more deer. Oh, wait... that's exactly why ML season was created several decades ago... to allow additional hunter opportunity without negatively impacting the resource. But technological advances over the past 2 decades have made modern "ML's" no less effective than regular rifles... and several newfangled ML's are actually MORE effective than many rifles... just cost an arm and a leg and are too unwieldly for children to handle.

But I don't think we at this point are concerned about having too few deer any longer. We should, however, be concerned about having too few youth hunters to take our places as game managers in a few decades. Again, I'm all for any additional opportunities to get kids in the woods (admittedly, for selfish reasons- as I have 3 little ones \:\) )

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#3693206 - 06/17/14 10:03 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
Tennessee Lead
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I am very content the way it is.
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#3693215 - 06/17/14 10:24 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: Tennessee Lead]
scn
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 Originally Posted By: Tennessee Lead
I am very content the way it is.


x2
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#3693233 - 06/17/14 11:01 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
BHC
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By making it any weapon season more would be killed, because more ppl only rifle hunt. So you start the season for everyone earlier...
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#3693250 - 06/18/14 01:34 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: BHC]
BHC
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I see no merit to having a "deer season" where u shoot what u please..
I agree that there is almost no difference in MZ and rifle today. And u don't have to have a top of the line MZ for that to be the case... I have a TC triumph and out to 150 yrds as long as I csn see em I could kill em.. And price is no issue good muzzle loaders are cheap. Yes cheap is relative, but in terms of quality optics firearms, trail cams, hunting gear in general. MZ's are cheap. You can buy one for less than the cost of a good carbon lined set of clothes.. Also archery hunting is nothing like gun hunting. I equate MZ and rifle to just gun hunting. The only difference is it take longer to load one.. But who cares u only need/get one shot anyway.. However archery is it's on thing. There is no comparison in the best compound in the world and a gun. It takes a whole new set of skills to hunt with a bow.. Including crossbow to an extent.. Not much of one tho.
The first week of archery is one of my favorite times to hunt.. If anything I wish it open des a week or two sooner. I can see merit to combing the MZ and gun season. I could also see letting bow only stay open a week longer if that happened..
I also see merit to shortening "gun" season, and lengthening bow season.

You don't want guns goin off before the rut, I promise u! Ask anyone who bow hunts the Midwest or northern states, how guns impact deer movement.. Kids have 6-7 weeks to rifle hunt, 2 weeks to MZ hunt if they want.. And 5+ weeks to bow or crossbow hunt... Nothing is holding kids back weapon wise.. I have a 10 yr old brother that killed his first deer last yr. he would have no trouble with my MZ, or with a crossbow.. He actually has a compound bow, but can't pull back enough yet..
I see no grounds for change other than just a gun season. I personally would absolutely love for bow to open a week or two earlier than it currently does, but I don't see that happening unfortunately...
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#3693274 - 06/18/14 05:12 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: scn]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 44731
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: Tennessee Lead
I am very content the way it is.


x2


Yep, that pretty much sums it up for me as well...content. ;\)
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MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

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#3694785 - 06/20/14 08:04 AM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: MUP]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3966
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

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I like it as is, expcept, gun seasons of any kind need to be way shorter.
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#3702771 - 07/03/14 09:57 PM Re: Tell me again why special muzzleloading rifle [Re: BHC]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 740
Loc: NC USA

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 Originally Posted By: BHC
By making it any weapon season more would be killed, because more ppl only rifle hunt. So you start the season for everyone earlier...


And maybe, except for Unicoi County and a few othe mountain places, more deer need to be whacked and stacked

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