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#3654942 - 04/25/14 08:13 AM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Another topic several have mentioned is concern over the fact that as deer hunters become a smaller and smaller portion of the total population, eventually we will lose enough political power to protect hunting from the urban/suburban anti-hunting mindset. In my opinion, THAT is exactly why we need to encourage the participation of non-traditional groups into deer hunting. And I'm not talking about drawing in huge numbers of new hunters. I'm talking about drawing in enough members of other interest groups that a positive message about hunting becomes part of those other interest groups' belief systems. For instance, the recent increase in positive press about hunting from the "sustainable foods" interest group, I believe, is going to do wonders for the image of hunting. A positive view of hunting within this interest group will pay huge dividends, as members of this group have a wide web of contacts into other interest groups, that in past, were seen as "enemies" of hunting. Another interest group we should hope gets drawn into deer hunting is the soccer-mom suburbia crowd. We need to find a way to show this group that suburban hunting is safe and effective, as their growing anger over consumption of their expensive landscaping by deer and car-deer collisions begins to open the door for dialogue.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3654946 - 04/25/14 08:17 AM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1306
Loc: south TN

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I think it is common sense that hunting in general for all game species is going away slowly but surelt.

Human population growth means more houses, buildings, cities, towns, malls, subdivisions, and less trees, fields, thickets, food plots, swamps, creeks, and what have you.

It isn't happening as quick as what I thought it was, but yea, hunting will not last on earth forever.

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#3654969 - 04/25/14 08:47 AM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: woodsman87]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19297
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
Human population growth means more houses, buildings, cities, towns, malls, subdivisions, and less trees, fields, thickets, food plots, swamps, creeks, and what have you.

While I agree with you, I don't think this will end hunting nor does it necessarily destroy wildlife populations. Many game species are very adaptive, particularly white-tail deer. Others, such as bobwhite quail, haven't been. No doubt, there are big differences in "urban" hunting compared to "wilderness" hunting. At present, I'd say most hunting is somewhere between "urban" and "wilderness", with much of man's activities actually creating better wildlife habitat than some of our wilderness areas. Deer are actually thriving in many urban subdivisions, have adapted to have extremely small "home" ranges, and seem to be enjoying a smorgasbord of new food sources (much to the disdain of many homeowners).

For example, compare the deer population of the Cherokee National Forest to Knox County, TN. About three decades ago, this huge national forest was a major destination for many deer hunters, and there was no deer season in Knox County. I would have to classify any deer hunting today in Knox County as "urban", yet today, there may be more deer hunters hunting in Knox County (and killing more deer there) than in the entire Cherokee National Forest.

Yet, the CNF is about the same size it was 30-plus years ago, and at least on a per hunter basis, I believe the opportunity for a hunter to kill a deer there may be greater today than in times past. But many of those Knoxville area hunters who once HAD to drive to places like the CNF to go deer hunting, they now more conveniently deer hunt in their back yards.

Think about this.
Knox County is the 3rd most people populous county in Tennessee. There were essentially no deer and no deer hunting in this county much beyond a couple decades ago. Few people could have ever imagine that the annual deer harvest in Knox County alone would be exceeding 1,000 deer by the Year 2012.

This has to equate to a huge number of deer hunters who once traveled to WMA's and public lands like the CNF, now, many are just hunting in the backyards, even if it is in a subdivision.

No doubt, much is changing. But it's not all bad. Some is simply hunter preference. The Cherokee National Forest has twice the acreage of Knox County, and there's not a single house or subdivision on that wilderness acreage. And it remains available to those who prefer a wilderness hunting experience, with far fewer hunters on it than in times past.

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#3655088 - 04/25/14 11:06 AM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: woodsman87]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12881
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I think it is common sense that hunting in general for all game species is going away slowly but surelt.

Human population growth means more houses, buildings, cities, towns, malls, subdivisions, and less trees, fields, thickets, food plots, swamps, creeks, and what have you.

It isn't happening as quick as what I thought it was, but yea, hunting will not last on earth forever.


There is something consider here. There was theory back in the 70s that seems to be trending now. Its called "The Great Inversion" and you can see it happening in many cities including Memphis and Nashville. Simply put, urban expansion and flight to the suburbs reaches critical mass and then it starts to reverse. Look at the revival of downtown Nashville and Memphis. Remember Lower Broadway in the mid 90s? It was a boarded up ghost town. Now, there are a number of permanent downtown residents. Look at the neighborhoods within the cities and how much nicer they have gotten during recent years.

Through the 70s, 80s and early 90s, city neighborhood deteriorated and suburbs expanded as weath moved out of the cities. Now the suburbs are starting to deteriorate and neighborhoods within the cities are on the upswing as wealth moves back into the city.

Portland OR has put strong preventative measures in place to keep the city from expanding and that seems to be the trend amongst cities. With manufacturing gone from cities, there is a lot more room to build within rather than expand. Hopefully, this trend continues to and human populations focus more on singular urban centers rather than spreading out. This would be highly beneficial for hunting.
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

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#3655120 - 04/25/14 11:41 AM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: Poser]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19297
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Poser
Hopefully, this trend continues to and human populations focus more on singular urban centers rather than spreading out. This would be highly beneficial for hunting.

I agree.

It's interesting to study population dynamics over time of both deer and humans. \:\) In the TN county where I currently do the most of my deer hunting (Stewart), I believe more people resided there in 1850 than do today in 2014. What's more they were very "scattered" across the county, making it very easy for those farmsteads to simply wipe out the deer & turkey populations with year-round subsistence hunting. The elk and bison populations were even more quickly destroyed.

Yet today, like nearly all TN counties, there is a thriving deer population and better deer hunting than only a couple decades ago. Some counties now have free-roaming elk populations restored, and even Stewart County has seen restoration of a pretty impressive elk & bison prairie which visitors drive thru daily to get a taste of how much of Middle TN looked a couple hundred years ago.

What's even more unexpected: The most talked about, most sought after deer hunt in Tennessee, where hunters wait in line nearly a decade for their opportunity, it's an "urban" deer hunt within the City of Memphis.

Go figure.

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#3655178 - 04/25/14 12:41 PM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: Wes Parrish]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 913
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish

I agree.

It's interesting to study population dynamics over time of both deer and humans. \:\) In the TN county where I currently do the most of my deer hunting (Stewart), I believe more people resided there in 1850 than do today in 2014.


Not for long, Mont. Co is about full and with the new Hwy 79 it is quicker to reach most of Clarksville from Eastern Stewart Co. (Indian Mound in particular) than it is from the majority of Mont. Co.

Land and home prices are already going up, once new leadership gets into Stewart Co I expect growth to explode. Of course, Ft. Campbell, LBL, the refuge and state forest will secure some of its wildness but the newer generation of inherited land holders will start selling off when the price is right.

Only thing right now hurting Stewart Co growth is the vacation and recreational property holders, lots of these people but very few pay any type of contributory tax.

I hope it stays wild, but the East side of the Cumberland River is destined to grow.
_________________________

In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks.
-John Muir




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#3655318 - 04/25/14 03:12 PM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: AT Hiker]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2491
Loc: TN & Western KY

content Online
 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish

I agree.

It's interesting to study population dynamics over time of both deer and humans. \:\) In the TN county where I currently do the most of my deer hunting (Stewart), I believe more people resided there in 1850 than do today in 2014.


Not for long, Mont. Co is about full and with the new Hwy 79 it is quicker to reach most of Clarksville from Eastern Stewart Co. (Indian Mound in particular) than it is from the majority of Mont. Co.

Land and home prices are already going up, once new leadership gets into Stewart Co I expect growth to explode. Of course, Ft. Campbell, LBL, the refuge and state forest will secure some of its wildness but the newer generation of inherited land holders will start selling off when the price is right.

Only thing right now hurting Stewart Co growth is the vacation and recreational property holders, lots of these people but very few pay any type of contributory tax.

I hope it stays wild, but the East side of the Cumberland River is destined to grow.


Stewart Co will never see growth like Montgomery, not enough infrastructure there or funding to get it
Montgomery County will continue to climb in population was 134,00 in 2000
184,000 in 2012 and still growing....
_________________________
"BUY LAND. THEY AIN'T MAKING ANY MORE OF THE STUFF"
- Will Rogers

http://www.JimmySettleLand.com

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#3655319 - 04/25/14 03:14 PM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: landman]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2491
Loc: TN & Western KY

content Online
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish

I agree.

It's interesting to study population dynamics over time of both deer and humans. \:\) In the TN county where I currently do the most of my deer hunting (Stewart), I believe more people resided there in 1850 than do today in 2014.


Not for long, Mont. Co is about full and with the new Hwy 79 it is quicker to reach most of Clarksville from Eastern Stewart Co. (Indian Mound in particular) than it is from the majority of Mont. Co.

Land and home prices are already going up, once new leadership gets into Stewart Co I expect growth to explode. Of course, Ft. Campbell, LBL, the refuge and state forest will secure some of its wildness but the newer generation of inherited land holders will start selling off when the price is right.

Only thing right now hurting Stewart Co growth is the vacation and recreational property holders, lots of these people but very few pay any type of contributory tax.

I hope it stays wild, but the East side of the Cumberland River is destined to grow.


Stewart Co will never see growth like Montgomery, not enough infrastructure there or funding to get it
Montgomery County will continue to climb in population was 134,00 in 2000
184,000 in 2012 and still growing....


And Montgomery continues to be a top TN county for Bucks with 9 points or more
_________________________
"BUY LAND. THEY AIN'T MAKING ANY MORE OF THE STUFF"
- Will Rogers

http://www.JimmySettleLand.com

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#3655427 - 04/25/14 05:50 PM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: BSK]
Monty
6 Point


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 509
Loc: Bedford Co.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Another topic several have mentioned is concern over the fact that as deer hunters become a smaller and smaller portion of the total population, eventually we will lose enough political power to protect hunting from the urban/suburban anti-hunting mindset. In my opinion, THAT is exactly why we need to encourage the participation of non-traditional groups into deer hunting. And I'm not talking about drawing in huge numbers of new hunters. I'm talking about drawing in enough members of other interest groups that a positive message about hunting becomes part of those other interest groups' belief systems. For instance, the recent increase in positive press about hunting from the "sustainable foods" interest group, I believe, is going to do wonders for the image of hunting. A positive view of hunting within this interest group will pay huge dividends, as members of this group have a wide web of contacts into other interest groups, that in past, were seen as "enemies" of hunting. Another interest group we should hope gets drawn into deer hunting is the soccer-mom suburbia crowd. We need to find a way to show this group that suburban hunting is safe and effective, as their growing anger over consumption of their expensive landscaping by deer and car-deer collisions begins to open the door for dialogue.


This is a really interesting, thought-provoking thread. Your observations about losing political clout is very much on point, and I'm afraid is predestined given the many demographic and social changes so many on here have accurately mentioned. Portraying true sportsmens' contributions to the changing society is one reason I am so supportive of Hunters for the Hungry program. It is a great example of the good that the many ethical deer hunters can do when teamed with a system that gets needed, healthy protein to the 16% of needy Tennesseans.

At the same time, the discussion about P&Y's position statement about high-fenced hunting on another thread supports the argument here that points out the shifting away from the NA Model of Wildlife Management and the public trust doctrine, which have been central to the gains we've seen in many of the better-managed game species.
_________________________
"What is man without the beasts? For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected." (Chief Seattle)

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#3655707 - 04/26/14 06:35 AM Re: A Contradictory Thought On Deer Hunting [Re: Monty]
Methane
4 Point


Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 282
Loc: Franklin, TN

Offline
This is interesting. Thank you.
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