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#3642337 - 04/11/14 07:39 PM More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off
Crappie Luck Moderator
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http://toprightnews.com/?p=2422

Deleted from BLM.gov but reposted for posterity by Free Republic, the BLM document entitled “Cattle Trespass Impacts” directly states that Bundy’s cattle “impacts” solar development, more specifically the construction of “utility-scale solar power generation facilities” on “public lands.”

“Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle,” the document states.

Another BLM report entitled Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone (BLM Technical Note 444) reveals that Bundy’s land in question is within the “Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone and surrounding area” which is part of a broad U.S. Department of Energy program for “Solar Energy Development in Six Southwestern States” on land “managed” by BLM.

“In 2012, the BLM and the U.S. Department of Energy published the Final Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement (PEIS) for Solar Energy Development in Six Southwestern States,” the report reads. “The Final Solar Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement assessed the impact of utility-scale solar energy development on public lands in the six southwestern states of Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, and Utah.”



*Snip*

And journalist Marcus Stern with Reuters also reported that Sen. Reid was heavily involved in the deal as well.

“[Reid] and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert,” he wrote. “Reid has been one of the project’s most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada.”
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#3642404 - 04/11/14 08:46 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Pic IN the Casa
TurdFarmer2.0
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Reid is one huge SOB. Typical career politician.


Reminds me of the book of Matthew where it says What is it to gain the whole world but lose your soul.
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#3642466 - 04/11/14 09:56 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Pic IN the Casa]
sgtwebb1
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So Reid is OPENLY selling his soul to the Chinese?
This needs to be the REAL story, every Conservative news outlet needs to run him into the ground, nonstop.
He's a TRAITOR TO THIS COUNTRY.
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#3642494 - 04/11/14 10:27 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: sgtwebb1]
FLTENNHUNTER1
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This is getting real interesting CL good post. Time to saddle up and ride.
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#3642509 - 04/11/14 10:57 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: FLTENNHUNTER1]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: FLTENNHUNTER1
This is getting real interesting CL good post. Time to saddle up and ride.


It's a long way from Florida to Nevada. Have a safe journey.
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#3642511 - 04/11/14 11:05 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
FLTENNHUNTER1
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: FLTENNHUNTER1
This is getting real interesting CL good post. Time to saddle up and ride.


It's a long way from Florida to Nevada. Have a safe journey.


No doubt I wouldn't see you there.
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#3642514 - 04/11/14 11:17 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: FLTENNHUNTER1]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: FLTENNHUNTER1
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: FLTENNHUNTER1
This is getting real interesting CL good post. Time to saddle up and ride.


It's a long way from Florida to Nevada. Have a safe journey.


No doubt I wouldn't see you there.


No, because you won't be making the trip.
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#3642577 - 04/12/14 06:36 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
dr
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"Public Land" and some have said it was Federal land. But whichever, this land was paid for by Americans, with American tax dollars. I can't understand why the idiots in Nevada keep reelecting Reid.
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#3642622 - 04/12/14 07:56 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: dr]
Pic IN the Casa
TurdFarmer2.0
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The 'idiots' in Nevada voted early and often. How does his opponent have a minimum of +2% lead the day before the election and Reid end up winning?

Chicago politics makes its way to Nevada. Hotel workers unions also sold their souls.
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#3642632 - 04/12/14 08:09 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: sgtwebb1]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: sgtwebb1
So Reid is OPENLY selling his soul to the Chinese?
This needs to be the REAL story, every Conservative news outlet needs to run him into the ground, nonstop.
He's a TRAITOR TO THIS COUNTRY.


EXACTLY!!!
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#3643192 - 04/13/14 07:54 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
Backstrapcrazy
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BLM say's Bundy owes American taxpayer's over a million dollars, "we the people" should waive it. The money never would of gone to the taxpayer anyway. If it was illegal immigrants living there, feds would not of even showed up.
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#3643197 - 04/13/14 08:04 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Backstrapcrazy]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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In the end, the BLM will end up paying the Bundy's millions in a settlement.
Once it came to light that Harry Reid was behind this with a land deal for a Chinese Solar Company, the feds backed off.

This was just Government intimidation and trying to force the last rancher out of business for Solar power kickbacks.
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#3643319 - 04/13/14 10:49 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
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See Presser v. Illinois (1886), a U.S. Supreme Court decision which is always cited by gun control advocates for the WRONG reason. The RIGHT reason to cite it is based on its facts-- private militias brandishing guns in public to push their own private agenda that is not in line with the rule of law and civil order.

I for one am glad the Feds backed down, they did not have to. Not under the color of law.
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#3643337 - 04/13/14 11:28 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Unicam]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Unicam
private militias brandishing guns in public to push their own private agenda that is not in line with the rule of law and civil order.

I for one am glad the Feds backed down, they did not have to. Not under the color of law.


I'm not sure that applies in this case since the Feds were running these ranchers out of business for Chinese Solar power contracts.

What the Feds were doing with Bundy's grazing fees and not holding up their end of the contract is illegal as well. They broke their agreement 20 years ago.

This case is not simple and the narrative that Bundy has just failed to make his payments and was squatting on that land has turned out to be false.

Turns out the Bundy have had rights to graze that land for 100 years. It't he feds who kept moving the goal post to drive out Bundy as they did every other rancher in the county.

From what I've been able to find, the whole Tortoise story was spun out of whole cloth just like "Offensive video" in Benghazi because the BLM had no standing on the violation of grazing rights theory. The feds have been shooting the Toroises because there are too many.

If they are in the right, why lie?

The 2nd amendment and the Militia was written for just such a case as this.
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#3643343 - 04/13/14 11:42 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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in fact, it turns out that the BLM is not the only bureaucratic office this Government has been using to illegally bully and intimidate people/businesses.

http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3643338&page=1#Post3643338
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#3643346 - 04/13/14 11:52 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Deleted from BLM.gov but reposted for posterity by the Free Republic, the BLM document entitled “Cattle Trespass Impacts” directly states that Bundy’s cattle “impacts” solar development, more specifically the construction of “utility-scale solar power generation facilities” on “public lands.”



http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-harry-reid-behind-blm-land-grab-of-bundy-ranch/
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#3643377 - 04/13/14 12:38 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
OHVATN
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I have not been paying attention to MSM this weekend other than for some background noise. Has there been any coverage of this in MSM and, if so, what angle have you seen in the reporting? Also, has anyone seen any MSM reporting concerning the solar development and including mention of the words "China" or "Chinese" and "Reid"?
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#3643380 - 04/13/14 12:41 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: OHVATN]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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The MSM have not and will not report on the Chinese=Reid involvement.
They are also not reporting on how the BLM created bogus taxes and fees to drive out the ranchers.

the MSM is just as trustworthy as Reid himself.
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#3643537 - 04/13/14 05:17 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Unicam]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Unicam
See Presser v. Illinois (1886), a U.S. Supreme Court decision which is always cited by gun control advocates for the WRONG reason. The RIGHT reason to cite it is based on its facts-- private militias brandishing guns in public to push their own private agenda that is not in line with the rule of law and civil order.

I for one am glad the Feds backed down, they did not have to. Not under the color of law.


I concur. I'm very glad it was resolved peaceably, at least for the moment, but beyond that I have mixed emotions. In some ways, this establishes a significant precedent, one that has the possibility of being useful to the cause of liberty. I just do so wish it had not been based on the actions of an arrogant mental midget who contends that only his interpretations of the law are the correct ones. That fact considerably diminishes its value, at least in the minds of some, myself included.


Edited by Bambi Buster (04/13/14 05:27 PM)
Edit Reason: Futher thoughts
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#3643561 - 04/13/14 05:55 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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 Quote:
I just do so wish it had not been based on the actions of an arrogant mental midget who contends that only his interpretations of the law are the correct ones.


I concur as well.

So... What ARE we going to do about Harry Reid and his abuse of these bureaucratic offices to intermediate citizens and force them out of business for Chinese solar power contracts?
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#3643570 - 04/13/14 06:14 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
 Quote:
I just do so wish it had not been based on the actions of an arrogant mental midget who contends that only his interpretations of the law are the correct ones.


I concur as well.

So... What ARE we going to do about Harry Reid and his abuse of these bureaucratic offices to intermediate citizens and force them out of business for Chinese solar power contracts?


If indeed it happened, "we" need to elect Republican supermajorities to both houses of Congress and seat one in the White House who will then point an attorney general to investigate, and if findings warrant, prosecute the Senator for his crimes.

Edited to add: Your sarcasm was so subtle I did not catch it until after I posted my reply, but my view of Bundy remains the same.


Edited by Bambi Buster (04/13/14 06:17 PM)
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#3643681 - 04/13/14 07:55 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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I celebrate that we can have different views on a topic and remain civil. My opinion of Bundy has been in the minority here but we've all posted for week without getting ugly or insulting each other.

I think that is awesome \:\)
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#3643685 - 04/13/14 07:58 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Wildcat
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
The MSM have not and will not report on the Chinese=Reid involvement.
They are also not reporting on how the BLM created bogus taxes and fees to drive out the ranchers.

the MSM is just as trustworthy as Reid himself.


The only one reporting on it right now is Reuters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831
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#3643694 - 04/13/14 08:03 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
I celebrate that we can have different views on a topic and remain civil. My opinion of Bundy has been in the minority here but we've all posted for week without getting ugly or insulting each other.

I think that is awesome \:\)


You are wrong and a communist and a global warming believer and I hate you and hope your dog gets poison ivy and then sleeps in your bed. \:\)
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#3643725 - 04/13/14 08:18 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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\:D

Haters gotta hate lol
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#3643982 - 04/14/14 07:16 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Unicam Administrator
Grumpaw
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
I celebrate that we can have different views on a topic and remain civil. My opinion of Bundy has been in the minority here but we've all posted for week without getting ugly or insulting each other.

I think that is awesome \:\)


You are wrong and a communist and a global warming believer and I hate you and hope your dog gets poison ivy and then sleeps in your bed. \:\)
Now that made me laugh out loud for real!!!
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#3644161 - 04/14/14 09:20 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Unicam]
TAFKAP
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 Originally Posted By: Unicam
See Presser v. Illinois (1886), a U.S. Supreme Court decision which is always cited by gun control advocates for the WRONG reason. The RIGHT reason to cite it is based on its facts-- private militias brandishing guns in public to push their own private agenda that is not in line with the rule of law and civil order.

I for one am glad the Feds backed down, they did not have to. Not under the color of law.


I'm not sure this is the case. I know nothing about the case you're citing, but I'd imagine a distinct difference between a private militia pushing a private agenda (say, the private "security" strike busters from the late 1800's at Carnegie Steel) and a group of volunteers coming to the defense of a private citizen. Bundy didn't hire out these people, they weren't paid, and they stood ground against an invasion of government representatives.
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#3644164 - 04/14/14 09:24 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
TAFKAP
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
Deleted from BLM.gov but reposted for posterity by the Free Republic, the BLM document entitled “Cattle Trespass Impacts” directly states that Bundy’s cattle “impacts” solar development, more specifically the construction of “utility-scale solar power generation facilities” on “public lands.”



http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-harry-reid-behind-blm-land-grab-of-bundy-ranch/


True as they may or may not be, can we please refrain from utilizing InfoWars as a "credible" source? This case has been garbage from the get-go, and I'd be pretty surprised to find Mr. Bundy entirely blameless in this matter. So when I see Alex Jones and his minions writing a large portion of the "facts" in this case, I have a difficult time maintaining objectivity.
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#3644197 - 04/14/14 10:11 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: TAFKAP]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Fair enough, but the info you copied was originally from BLM's web site. Not Alex Jones \:\)
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#3644213 - 04/14/14 10:36 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
griz01
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I have 4 questions that I feel need to be answered, regardless of fault or guilt on this:

1. Why does BLM have pre-made signs that say “First Amendment Area”?
2. Were snipers really deployed against American Citizens on American soil?
3. Is any Government official tied to this in any way making a profit?
4. Why did the FAA issue a No-Fly Zone?

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#3644227 - 04/14/14 10:50 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: griz01]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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\:\)

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#3644237 - 04/14/14 10:57 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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#3644253 - 04/14/14 11:15 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
MUP
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Another take on this anti goobermint, anti American, cattle rancher...

Why the feds chickened out on a Nevada ranch

Kevin McCullough - Guest Columnist http://www.baldwinmccullough.com

Monday, April 14, 2014

98

Return To Poll

Let me obliterate a bit of confusion here: the Obama administration attempted to go to war with a rancher in Nevada. Let me amplify a little bit of truth: they tucked tail and have returned home. And let me add a bit of clarity: they had no choice!

As the nation began to become familiar with the plight of the family of Cliven Bundy, many of us harkened back to another standoff – way back in 1993 – in which the federal government attempted to bully its outcome: Waco, Texas and the Branch Davidian massacre.

Tweet to @KMCRadio

It is telling that in the Nevada case the feds pulled out so quickly, given all they had indicated they were willing to do to resolve the matter to their satisfaction. They had set up a perimeter around the Bundy's family land, ranch, and home. They had brought in extra artillery, dogs, and snipers. They were beginning the process of stealing more than 300 head of cattle that did not belong to them.

They did so – or so we were told – for the reason of protecting the desert tortoise. But then it was revealed that the Bureau of Land Management had shot far more desert tortoises than the Bundy cattle had even possibly destroyed. We were told they did it because the Bundys had broken federal laws by not paying what amounted to retroactive grazing fees to the federal government. But the governor of the state of Nevada told us that Bundy had paid every ounce of state tax, met the state requirements, and their family had been improving the property more than 100 years previous.

Finally we were allowed to know the connection between a communist Chinese wind/solar power plant and its connection to that senator named Harry Reid. Evidently a plan had been hatched to use the Bundy property for a solar farm and instead of paying the Bundys, someone, somewhere in the administration believed it was easier to just take what they wanted.

That approach is at least consistent with the readily documented abuse of emminent domain where the government for any number of reasons – few of them valid – has taken to taking what doesn't belong to them. Americans then watch as it gets handed over to some multi-national corporation for the "cause" of the "greater good."

There were a few specific reasons why the feds chickened out in the Nevada desert though.

1. Technology – As the Bundy family members were abused, cameras captured it. Not television network cameras, but dozens of cell phone video devices that gave witness to a Bundy aunt being shoved to the ground, and a Bundy son being tazed. All of this while threatening protestors with dogs, brandished weapons and vehicles was captured, uploaded and made viral to the watching world.

2. States' rights – As the drama unfolded it became clear that the governor of Nevada, and the sheriff of Clark County knew that Cliven Bundy's family had not only not broken any state law regarding the land, but that they had gone to the nth degree to ensure compliance with Nevada laws on the property. The governor and the sheriff, to their credit, did not favor the feds as a more powerful party in the conflict. Though there must have been pressure from Senator Reid's office, the administration via the Bureau of Land Management, and local officials who were bought and sold like the Clark County commissioner who told those coming to support the Bundys to have "funeral plans in place."

3. Grassroots response – As other incidents have transpired in the past, the amount of time it took honest information to reach the grassroots and thus the response to the action came too slow. In the massacre in Waco, most of the nation had been sold a single narrative from the limited media outlets covering the events. Similarly the events surrounding the abduction of Elian Gonzales from his family in Florida and deportation to Cuba took place in such a response vacuum that by the time Americans knew the real story, the damage was done. With the Bundy ranch, Internet outlets by the dozen had competing information with the limited "official news" being released by the networks, and in most cases the alternative sources had it correct and usually a full day or so ahead of the news cycle. By the time afternoon drive hit, when the network news rooms in New York were preparing their first stories, talk radio audiences had already been dialing their elected officials in Washington demanding action.

The majority of Americans saw through the efforts to spin the story in Nevada. Couple that with the leadership failures that the American people view the administration responsible for, from Benghazi to the Affordable Care Act, all it took was the unedited video of federal agents tazing Bundy's son, followed by his pulling the wires from his chest and continuing to stand his ground for there to be comparisons made to the American revolution.

It's also important to note that merely pulling back from the Bundy property hasn't settled the matter for the American people either.

The feds have stolen 352 head of cattle, and will not confirm or deny if they euthanized some or all of them. Recompense must be made. And to be candid, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see if a few ambitious law firms don't try to convince the Bundy family of the validity of litigation.

Fortunately for the American people, the feds were not able to ultimately bully a simple rancher, not for a tortoise, a solar power plant, or a dirty senator and his administration.

We owe the Bundy family a great deal of thanks for standing tall.

For if the federal government is allowed to do it with one, then there will be nothing stopping them from doing it again.
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MUP

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#3644295 - 04/14/14 12:09 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: OHVATN]
Grizzly Johnson
Team Grizzly
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 Originally Posted By: OHVATN
I have not been paying attention to MSM this weekend other than for some background noise. Has there been any coverage of this in MSM and, if so, what angle have you seen in the reporting? Also, has anyone seen any MSM reporting concerning the solar development and including mention of the words "China" or "Chinese" and "Reid"?


The MSM were threatened to be cut off from White House access if they were to report on the Nevada story.... FOX was about the only news station that talked about it... along with some small local affiliate stations....
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#3644402 - 04/14/14 01:53 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
TAFKAP
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
Fair enough, but the info you copied was originally from BLM's web site. Not Alex Jones \:\)



So says Alex Jones, anyway ;\)
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#3644424 - 04/14/14 02:18 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: TAFKAP]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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No, he took it from other sources and packaged it for himself.

The screen shots were originally posed on Free Republic by a poster. Then it was picked up by Top Right News and Alex Jones.

In fact, the info wars page in nearly word for word what I posted in the original post from Top Right News.
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#3644520 - 04/14/14 03:44 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: TAFKAP]
de novo
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 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP

True as they may or may not be, can we please refrain from utilizing InfoWars as a "credible" source? This case has been garbage from the get-go, and I'd be pretty surprised to find Mr. Bundy entirely blameless in this matter. So when I see Alex Jones and his minions writing a large portion of the "facts" in this case, I have a difficult time maintaining objectivity.


The information is either fact or fiction. The source is irrelevant. Sad part is infowars is at least as credible as MSNBC, CNN, and many other abbreviated networks.
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#3644600 - 04/14/14 04:56 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
TAFKAP
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Unfortunately, "information" on the internet can either be fact, fiction, or a conglomerate representation of what the author wants you to see. With regard to Alex Jones and InfoWars, that "information" may be correct, incorrect yet spun to look correct, or complete intellectual rape, distortion, utter garbage, and pseudo-science. The distinction amongst the various types of "information" presented by Alex Jones is too muddled.

The 9/11 "truth" garbage he puts out, coupled with the idiotic notion of "geo-engineering" is enough for me to dismiss everything on that page as utter nonsense.
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#3644603 - 04/14/14 04:58 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: TAFKAP]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Reuters has picked it up as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831
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#3644627 - 04/14/14 05:11 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Wildcat
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck


It was on Fox & Friends this morning and again on The Five.
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#3644643 - 04/14/14 05:22 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: TAFKAP]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP
Unfortunately, "information" on the internet can either be fact, fiction, or a conglomerate representation of what the author wants you to see. With regard to Alex Jones and InfoWars, that "information" may be correct, incorrect yet spun to look correct, or complete intellectual rape, distortion, utter garbage, and pseudo-science. The distinction amongst the various types of "information" presented by Alex Jones is too muddled.

The 9/11 "truth" garbage he puts out, coupled with the idiotic notion of "geo-engineering" is enough for me to dismiss everything on that page as utter nonsense.

Like a stopped clock on military time, it is possible that Alex Jones might be right once a day, but I would not depend on either for factual information.
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#3644652 - 04/14/14 05:32 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Wildcat
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Don't forget that the BLM director is Neil Kornze who worked in Harry Reids office for years.
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#3644654 - 04/14/14 05:34 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
de novo
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There's tons of information on Alex Jones' webpage that may be disputed but the particular information that CL was referring was straight off the government (now deleted) webpage. Still waiting for this piece of critical information to appear on the legit news services, though.

http://www.infowars.com/flashback-sen-reid-breaks-ground-for-nevada-solar-farm-near-bundy-ranch/

Like Drudge, Infowars has many linked articles and blogs on their front page. These articles are unedited straight from other news sites.
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#3647103 - 04/16/14 03:20 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wildcat]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
Don't forget that the BLM director is Neil Kornze who worked in Harry Reids office for years.

Harry Reid is up to his eyeballs in the BLM/Bundy debacle.

The more I find out about just how these chips fell, and every aspect about this, the more I realize our federal government has gone way too far, never mind that so many of their actions have been unconstitutional, illegal, and hypocritical.

Feds Left a Trail of Destruction and Carnage in Nevada ---- Why? Why?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/...ranch-standoff/

. . . . . leaving a trail of wreckage behind.

Fox News toured the damage -- allegedly caused by the Bureau of Land Management -- which included holes in water tanks and destroyed water lines and fences. According to family friends, the bureau's hired "cowboys" also killed two prize bulls.

"They had total control of this land for one week, and look at the destruction they did in one week," . . . . . . .

. . . . . . BLM officials told reporters that "illegal structures" on Bundy's ranch -- water tanks, water lines and corrals -- had to be removed to "restore" the land to its natural state and prevent the rancher from restarting his illegal cattle operation.

However, the court order used to justify the operation appears only to give the agency the authority to "seize and impound" Bundy's cattle.

"Nowhere in the court order that I saw does it say that they can destroy infrastructure, destroy corrals, tanks ... desert environment, shoot cattle," Houston said.

One bull was shot five times.

. . . . the pen holding the bull wasn't even bent. "It's not like the bull was smashing this pen and trying tackle people or anything," he said. "The pen is sitting here. It hasn't moved. No damage whatsoever. Where was the danger with that bull?"

Plus he said BLM vehicles appear to have crushed a tortoise burrow near the damaged water tank. "How's that conservation?" he asked.

The showdown is far from over.

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#3647133 - 04/16/14 03:39 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
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Will there now be a Waco-style raid of the Bundy ranch?

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3472854985001.../#sp=show-clips

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#3647261 - 04/16/14 06:05 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wes Parrish]
de novo
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Not very environmentally friendly government.


Here's a report on beef prices:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-15...-prices-explode
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#3647276 - 04/16/14 06:20 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: de novo
Here's a report on beef prices:

Interestingly, there seems to be merit to the idea that a collateral motivation of the federal government raiding the Bundy ranch (and driving other ranchers out of business under false pretenses of protecting a tortoise) is to help drive up beef prices, so that people will be forced to eat less meat, which these bureaucrats believe will reduce global warming, and/or benefit them via perpetuating the global warming mantra.

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#3647305 - 04/16/14 06:49 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wes Parrish]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Pretty interesting outsider's view of the standoff.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/footage-bundy-massacre/
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#3647358 - 04/16/14 07:22 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Wes Parrish
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Wow. Just Wow.
That may be the best info about this whole situation thus far, especially that last minute that put it all into perspective.

Seriously, this BLM/Bundy issue could very easily have started a war much like our 1860's "Civil War", which in fact began under similar circumstances and events (i.e. things getting out of hand via a show of government force). Very scary. Even scarier that most people don't really believe this, nor will they, until AFTER it's already happened. We can't seem to learn anything from history, so we're destined to repeat it every couple hundred years or so?

By the way, note that no mainstream media covered this event. Instead, they simply repeated the government's talking points as instructed, while many American citizens on the scene came very close to being assassinated by our own federal government for simply exercising their 1st Amendment rights. If but one federal gun had gone off, even accidentally . . . . . . . .

But now, what's to prevent Obama from simply labeling Mr. Bundy as a "terrorist", then ordering a drone to kill him? I say there really is nothing, and Obama has already set close precedent in using his executive orders to assassinate American citizens via drones (without due process of law). Of course, this could start a huge civil uprising like we've not seen since the "Civil War", but of course, arrogant political elites always fail to see such repercussions in advance, thus they continue to behave stupidly.

Another very key point that should be noted is how the BLM was so quick to point their fully automatic weapons at American citizens, while they allow illegal aliens to run rampant with relative impunity over these same BLM lands. The BLM is very selectively enforcing it's own rules.

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#3647504 - 04/16/14 08:47 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
FLTENNHUNTER1
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
Pretty interesting outsider's view of the standoff.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/footage-bundy-massacre/


Amazing how close this came to bloodshed. The US Government has been preparing for a "bubba moment" and it dang near came to fruition. What the heck has happened to this country?
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#3647574 - 04/16/14 09:31 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wes Parrish]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: de novo
Here's a report on beef prices:

Interestingly, there seems to be merit to the idea that a collateral motivation of the federal government raiding the Bundy ranch (and driving other ranchers out of business under false pretenses of protecting a tortoise) is to help drive up beef prices, so that people will be forced to eat less meat, which these bureaucrats believe will reduce global warming, and/or benefit them via perpetuating the global warming mantra.


Of course!!!!! A Vegan-Global Warming conspiracy. Makes much more sense than:

Contractors seeking weapons-grade minerals

Fracking

Chicom attempt to monopolize our sunlight

Real estate developers seeking tracts near I-15

Kenyan/Holder attempt to start insurrection and institute "Marshall Law"
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#3647615 - 04/16/14 10:12 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
pass-thru
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: de novo
Here's a report on beef prices:

Interestingly, there seems to be merit to the idea that a collateral motivation of the federal government raiding the Bundy ranch (and driving other ranchers out of business under false pretenses of protecting a tortoise) is to help drive up beef prices, so that people will be forced to eat less meat, which these bureaucrats believe will reduce global warming, and/or benefit them via perpetuating the global warming mantra.


Of course!!!!! A Vegan-Global Warming conspiracy. Makes much more sense than:

Contractors seeking weapons-grade minerals

Fracking

Chicom attempt to monopolize our sunlight

Real estate developers seeking tracts near I-15

Kenyan/Holder attempt to start insurrection and institute "Marshall Law"






lol....internet induced insular myopia.....






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#3647829 - 04/17/14 08:49 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
de novo
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster

Of course!!!!! A Vegan-Global Warming conspiracy. Makes much more sense than:

Contractors seeking weapons-grade minerals

Fracking

Chicom attempt to monopolize our sunlight

Real estate developers seeking tracts near I-15

Kenyan/Holder attempt to start insurrection and institute "Marshall Law"



Anything is possible.

The wildest conspiracy of all is running guns to Mexicans hoping they will be used in American crimes so you can go after the 2nd Amendment. It takes quite an imagination to pull that one off.
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#3648564 - 04/17/14 11:41 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
Bambi Buster
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Apparently anything IS possible. Bundy draws some high class followers. See short video at link:

"...Militia members talked about sacrificing women's lives for Media win..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kbe8KqjmGo
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#3648728 - 04/18/14 08:58 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
BMan
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The only violence that occurred - including an attack against a woman - was committed by BLM.

In the event women had been put up front, it still would have been BLM doing the killing.

High class, indeed.
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#3648794 - 04/18/14 09:42 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: BMan]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Sheriff Mack is not connected to the Bundy Ranch nor the militia. He's one man who came out seeking media attention. He's that one moron the media always seeks to paint a broad picture of the whole group.

They did that with the Tea Party also. They do it with every group except Obama supporters.


and his idea of putting women up front was not evident in the video I posted earlier.


http://www.westernjournalism.com/footage-bundy-massacre/
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#3648944 - 04/18/14 12:10 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
MUP
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Meanwhile, in a recent interview that just re-aired on Fox, Harry Reid calls ALL of the responding citizens to the area, domestic terrorists. Hmmmm...
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#3649001 - 04/18/14 01:27 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
de novo
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck

Sheriff Mack is not connected to the Bundy Ranch nor the militia. He's one man who came out seeking media attention. He's that one moron the media always seeks to paint a broad picture of the whole group.

They did that with the Tea Party also. They do it with every group except Obama supporters.


and his idea of putting women up front was not evident in the video I posted earlier.


http://www.westernjournalism.com/footage-bundy-massacre/


Great way to reinforce their base's confirmation biases and give them some ammo on their talk forums.

 Originally Posted By: MUP
Meanwhile, in a recent interview that just re-aired on Fox, Harry Reid calls ALL of the responding citizens to the area, domestic terrorists. Hmmmm...


Fits the narrative that's been leaking out of government training courses since Obama took office. The Feds have been shooting at white men, women, children, and the elderly targets for a few years now.
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#3649059 - 04/18/14 02:38 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck

Sheriff Mack is not connected to the Bundy Ranch nor the militia. He's one man who came out seeking media attention. He's that one moron the media always seeks to paint a broad picture of the whole group.

They did that with the Tea Party also. They do it with every group except Obama supporters.....



Speaking of morons, there's also Tennessee's very own hothead in the fray, James Yeager. No indications on his website that the Bundys have disowned him yet. For those who do not know who Yeager is, Google his name and a phrase like "goes off," etc. I am hesitant to post a direct link due to his fondness for profanity which some here might find objectionable.


Edited by Bambi Buster (04/18/14 02:38 PM)
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#3649103 - 04/18/14 03:40 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
fishboy1
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BB,
I reject your premise that the Bundy's and or their supporters have any responsibility or connection with random attention seekers.

That would be like painting every single African American as a race whore extortionist because of the actions of Jessie Jackson.
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#3649139 - 04/18/14 04:37 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: fishboy1]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
BB,
I reject your premise that the Bundy's and or their supporters have any responsibility or connection with random attention seekers.

That would be like painting every single African American as a race whore extortionist because of the actions of Jessie Jackson.



Your analogy would be more valid to me if Bundy had made some effort to distance himself from the radicals. Are we to forgive Obama for not disavowing Pentagon bomber Bill Ayers?

Rightly or wrongly, men are often judged by the company they keep. In this instance, in the case of Bundy and his militia supporters, that works both ways.
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#3649167 - 04/18/14 05:05 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster

Your analogy would be more valid to me if Bundy had made some effort to distance himself from the radicals.


I can't help but recognize that this is very similar to the "Birthers" opinion on Obama's birth certificate.

If he haas nothing to hide, why won't he release it"

If silence is an admission of guilt, will you cross that rubicon and admit Obama was not born in the USA?

;\)
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#3649190 - 04/18/14 05:25 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster

Your analogy would be more valid to me if Bundy had made some effort to distance himself from the radicals.


I can't help but recognize that this is very similar to the "Birthers" opinion on Obama's birth certificate.

If he haas nothing to hide, why won't he release it"

If silence is an admission of guilt, will you cross that rubicon and admit Obama was not born in the USA?

;\)


I have no idea where the Kenyan was born. It would be far more important if there were some way to prove it, but the fact that birth certificates are such inexact and easily faked documents makes proving place of birth difficult to impossible. Also, place of birth is only one factor in determining citizenship. The nationality of the parents is also a factor. That's why I've never given much credibility to the Birthers.

Back to the point at hand, I say with every bit of straightforwardness and honesty I can muster, I do not get FB1's analogy or yours. My point in this whole Bundy issue is that Bundy is a deluded sovereign citizen type who is attracting a lot of either misinformed or deluded and dangerous radical followers like "Sheriff Mack" and Yeager. It makes for a very unwholesome synergy that discredits all who are touched by it, especially those there on the ground in Utah.
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#3649197 - 04/18/14 05:33 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
My point in this whole Bundy issue is that Bundy is a deluded sovereign citizen type who is attracting a lot of either misinformed or deluded and dangerous radical followers like "Sheriff Mack" and Yeager. It makes for a very unwholesome synergy that discredits all who are touched by it, especially those there on the ground in Utah.



Although, Mr. Bundy has distorted views on land ownership, he has denounced that whole "Sovereign citizen" movement.

The rest I'll agree with.

However the Bundy's have come forward and cautioned people to not believe what they read on the internet and hear. They stated that if it does not come from them, then assume it's not true.

I doubt anyone expects them to spend all their time throwing water on every internet rumor and grandstanding moron.

My point was that the Bundy's have no more responsibility to denounce every moron that steps up and tries to "represent" than Obama has to address every request for documentation ( of any kind). I further propose that any left-wing Media that demands such opens themselves up this this very charge of bias and inconsistency of demanding one thing of one group and yet not of another.

Of course that's par for course. I'm just pointing out the obvious. \:\)
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#3649202 - 04/18/14 05:43 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
My point in this whole Bundy issue is that Bundy is a deluded sovereign citizen type who is attracting a lot of either misinformed or deluded and dangerous radical followers like "Sheriff Mack" and Yeager. It makes for a very unwholesome synergy that discredits all who are touched by it, especially those there on the ground in Utah.



Although, Mr. Bundy has distorted views on land ownership, he has denounced that whole "Sovereign citizen" movement.

The rest I'll agree with.

However the Bundy's have come forward and cautioned people to not believe what they read on the internet and hear. They stated that if it does not come from them, then assume it's not true.

I doubt anyone expects them to spend all their time throwing water on every internet rumor and grandstanding moron.

My point was that the Bundy's have no more responsibility to denounce every moron that steps up and tries to "represent" than Obama has to address every request for documentation ( of any kind). I further propose that any left-wing Media that demands such opens themselves up this this very charge of bias and inconsistency of demanding one thing of one group and yet not of another.

Of course that's par for course. I'm just pointing out the obvious. \:\)



I concur about the left-wing media being hypocritical if they constantly demand the Bundys to denounce individual radicals. Though I have not seen it, they may well be doing so.

Though it does not relate directly to your post here, I believe it's worth noting that the video I posted on "Sheriff Mack" and another featuring Yeager were aired by Fox, not MSNBC or CNN.
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#3649203 - 04/18/14 05:47 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Fox is the only outlet covering this at all.

NONE of the alphabet channels will touch it.

Lies of omission.
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#3649378 - 04/18/14 08:28 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
Fox is the only outlet covering this at all.

NONE of the alphabet channels will touch it.

Lies of omission.



Not entirely. See link at bottom. As much as I utterly detest the source of the story, I am not able to find much fault with it, and most especially not with this closing paragraph:

"...it’s unsustainable to think a group of well-armed extremists can simply block the enforcement of American laws in the United States. It’s perfectly understandable that the Bureau of Land Management saw a crisis unfolding and pulled back to prevent bloodshed, but there’s an obvious problem with establishing a radical precedent: you, too, can ignore the law and disregard court rulings you don’t like, just so long as you have well-armed friends pointing guns at Americans...."


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-bundy-crisis-nevada
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#3649416 - 04/18/14 09:05 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Lets be honest here "some laws". They only care if you break "some laws". Others don't seem to matter that much.

Furthermore, if those in power care only about some laws and not otbers, then there really is no law. Only the whims of those in power. The law is irrelevant and is just a means to an end.

Odd how they don't seem so interested in enforcing their own ACA or immigration laws. Not to mention DOMA or oath of office.
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#3649428 - 04/18/14 09:18 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Whete was mrs. Maddow when occupy was tresspassing and crapping on cop cars? What about "speak truth to power?"..
the problem here has nothing to do with the law. It's all about the people, the "wrong" people defying their authority and getting "uppity".

It threatens their machine of intimadation and birthright of rule.

Oh and guns. It' s bad because they are using guns
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#3649440 - 04/18/14 09:33 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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Selective enforcement will always be the bane of any nation of laws. Elections, no matter which side prevails, have consequences.

She did not write the article; it's on her blog, but I agree that Ms Maddow is a flagrant hypocrite, among other names I cannot use here. However, the message below remains valid, no matter who the messenger or his/her motivations. To argue otherwise is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

"...but there’s an obvious problem with establishing a radical precedent: you, too, can ignore the law and disregard court rulings you don’t like, just so long as you have well-armed friends pointing guns at Americans...."
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#3649449 - 04/18/14 09:45 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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I totally agree and warned that it would soread like fildfire when this administration ignored court orders and congressional supenos.

To bad there was no outrage until the citizens recognized this nation for the lawless house of cards they created with such precident.

If we are to be a nation of laws, enforcement MUST begin at the top. Whipping the serfs will do nothing to bring order as long as the serfs are armed.
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#3649455 - 04/18/14 10:00 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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The citizens refuse to have laws imposed and enforced by those who think they are above the law themselves.

And I agree
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#3649462 - 04/18/14 10:07 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
I totally agree and warned that it would soread like fildfire when this administration ignored court orders and congressional supenos.

To bad there was no outrage until the citizens recognized this nation for the lawless house of cards they created with such precident.

If we are to be a nation of laws, enforcement MUST begin at the top. Whipping the serfs will do nothing to bring order as long as the serfs are armed.


Until serfs start electing "tops" who believe in the rule of law, there is not going to be any enforcement at the top. Elections, demographics and universal suffrage have consequences.

In the larger view, it would not matter if Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan and 535 like-minded Senators and Congressmen were miraculously reincarnated and somehow elected to office tomorrow, this incident is still a terrible precedent. Serfs at both ends of the political spectrum have (or can easily obtain) guns.
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#3649468 - 04/18/14 10:24 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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We're are a society in rapid decay. We're really not for from burearocrtic bribery like mexico.

It will take more than elections to turn it around. People are fed up. This is not a precident so much as a precipice. I'm all for law and order but it will be coming from the people, not at them.
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#3649478 - 04/18/14 10:55 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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It is a precedent, but it may well prove to have been a precipice as you say. I share your pent-up intense anger and the anger of many who support Bundy, and for most of the same reasons. I just do so wish that the anger could have been more wisely channeled. "I'll graze my cows wherever I [censored] well please," does not inspire like "No taxation without representation" or ""I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country."
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#3649485 - 04/18/14 11:11 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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No. It's not as romantic. But it hasn't been polished with history yet.

But he does have a point about the excesive fees and ever growing regulations even if he expressed it without the flair of old english

This situation is not the best to make a stand on. I see that.

But it's also not the worst. One one hand you hve a rancher grazing his cattle illegally on federal land.

On the other you have a rouge federal government who refuses to secure our borders but will spend over $3 Million to rain down the force of federal might to collect on $1 million owed in fees.

Who is more crazy here?
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#3649495 - 04/19/14 12:06 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
No. It's not as romantic. But it hasn't been polished with history yet.

But he does have a point about the excesive fees and ever growing regulations even if he expressed it without the flair of old english

This situation is not the best to make a stand on. I see that.

But it's also not the worst. One one hand you hve a rancher grazing his cattle illegally on federal land.

On the other you have a rouge federal government who refuses to secure our borders but will spend over $3 Million to rain down the force of federal might to collect on $1 million owed in fees.

Who is more crazy here?


Your initial point is well made. History is written by the victors.

Excessive fees are strictly subjective. And like any consumer, Bundy had the option to not purchase the overpriced (if it truly was) commodity. It's not like excessive taxes where one has no choice but to pay.

Regarding border security, there has been no serious enforcement of immigration laws since the Eisenhower administration. I know whereof I speak first hand. For nearly six years I caught as many as I could, but with no willingness by the powers that be to create a disincentive to their trying again and again, I might as well have been handing them a map and a bus ticket. They kept coming each day until they made it to the interior. That was under both Carter and Reagan. For all practical purposes, there was no difference in immigration enforcement then from today. The result of a rogue government? You tell me.

Regarding your final question of who is the more crazy, consider this if you will. What happens when large numbers of armed persons pigmentally different from you and me gather on public land around polling places to stop the voting because they believe state voter ID laws are unfair and diminish their people's right to vote? When that happens, as it well may as a result of this precedent, then we will know the Bundy incident was, as you say, also a precipice. The shoe will be on the other foot, but the principle is the same. If you don't like a law, just get several of your armed friends together and point guns at other Americans. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Armed mob rule is generally not a good thing, no matter the demographics and political persuasion of the mob.

Who (or what) indeed is the more crazy?
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#3649544 - 04/19/14 06:36 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
fishboy1
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I also reject the assumption that the matter is "closed" with regards to Bundy's rights to own/graze/use that land in question.

His property rights claim go WAY back. Back to the days where the government would grant you ownership by "opening, improving, and holding" land for a period of time. Today, in much of the US, you can gain perpetual USE of a property simply by using it in a regular fashion for 22 consecutive years. Some locations you can actually gain OWNERSHIP of said land in the same fashion.

Since none of us has done a title search back to the beginning of time on that piece of property, we cannot definitively say if his claims are legit.

Bundy's claim is that they own or have rights to the grazing land from back into the 1800's. That the government, without due process has denied his rights. That non elected bureaucrats have attempted to deny him his rights by decree and force.
That using FORCE without due process is a criminal act against him personally, and citizens rights generally.

The government's claim seems to be that "we are the government and YOU will do what we want or you will feel the steel of our blade". Past agreements and property rights are water under the bridge, and somebody from government ( BLM in this case) can void your rights by decree. That simple decree is all that is necessary. Courts shall and will uphold that decree without regard to previous rights and history.

In effect, GOVERNMENT DECREE supersedes citizen's property rights, AND CONSTITUTIONAL rights to due process of law.

THAT is the issue at hand here that needs to have a full and complete examination through the courts and the eye of public opinion.

Until that issue is tested in the courts, and then brought before the people to be debated, agonized over and voted on, our Representative Republic has slid into some kind of bastardized Republic dictatorship of the Elite political class.[color:#990000][/color]
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#3649569 - 04/19/14 07:13 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
Lets be honest here "some laws". They only care if you break "some laws". Others don't seem to matter that much.

Furthermore, if those in power care only about some laws and not otbers, then there really is no law. Only the whims of those in power. The law is irrelevant and is just a means to an end.

Odd how they don't seem so interested in enforcing their own ACA or immigration laws. Not to mention DOMA or oath of office.


This!
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#3649576 - 04/19/14 07:26 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
No. It's not as romantic. But it hasn't been polished with history yet.

But he does have a point about the excesive fees and ever growing regulations even if he expressed it without the flair of old english

This situation is not the best to make a stand on. I see that.

But it's also not the worst. One one hand you hve a rancher grazing his cattle illegally on federal land.

On the other you have a rouge federal government who refuses to secure our borders but will spend over $3 Million to rain down the force of federal might to collect on $1 million owed in fees.

Who is more crazy here?


Could it be, that with all the other scandal, and blatant refusal to enforce the law by this "govt", this was the straw that "broke the cow's back"? I'm guessing at this point its almost "pick your poison" as to whichever cause needs to be taken up to tame this rogue bunch of higher ups.
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#3649607 - 04/19/14 07:52 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
Wildcat
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The precedent was set back in 1775 in Lexington and Concord when the serfs rose up against THEIR OWN government.

People seem to forget we once were British citizens and our king was the King of England.

We fought OUR OWN govt.
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#3649631 - 04/19/14 08:15 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wildcat]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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MOO-lon Labe
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#3649655 - 04/19/14 08:31 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wildcat]
fishboy1
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 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
The precedent was set back in 1775 in Lexington and Concord when the serfs rose up against THEIR OWN government.

People seem to forget we once were British citizens and our king was the King of England.

We fought OUR OWN govt.


Was reading the Federalist Papers last night and my belief is even stronger that a civil war/succession would be the worst thing for the country.

The federal government needs to be put back into its cage (bind their hands from mischief by the chains of the Constitution) but every single possible remedy needs to be explored BEFORE it comes to violence.

I pray that we can turn things around peacefully before things get further out of control.
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#3649661 - 04/19/14 08:40 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: fishboy1]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Me too. But the problems we have are not the color or the house (red or blue), we have termites. We have an infestation of bureaucratic insects that you never see except for just briefly when someone turns on a light. These termites are eating the framework and core of our home. Deciding on which color (red or blue) to paint the house next is not going to solve the real problem.

But if we don't get the real problem soon, the house will be razed and our richest neighbor will just buy the lot.
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#3649668 - 04/19/14 08:52 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: fishboy1]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1


Was reading the Federalist Papers last night and my belief is even stronger that a civil war/succession would be the worst thing for the country.


I appreciate the great minds when contributed to the Federalist argument. They indeed created some amazing framework of our Government.
But it it were not for the Anti-fderalists, I firmly believe we would have fallen into a dictatorship sometime around recreation. If not then, we would have never survived the Wilson administration with any citizen's rights at all.

Reading the Federalist arguments and comparing their ideas to the government we have today, I see how naive even they were to the power and corruption that could/would exist in a centralized government.

The Anti-Federalists have so far saved this "Republic". Our government now wages war on the Anti-federalists demands (the BIll of rights) The Federalists contributions have long since been annexed by the statists.
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#3649827 - 04/19/14 12:57 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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http://therightscoop.com/this-clip-of-ch...ore-is-awesome/
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#3651261 - 04/21/14 10:34 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
TAFKAP
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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
u] [/b]you, too, can ignore the law and disregard court rulings you don’t like, just so long as you have well-armed friends pointing guns at Americans...." [/color]
[/i]


Herein lies the crux of the argument. When "Americans" point a gun at me first, to enforce laws of questionable legitimacy, who is the worse "American"? The one who defends himself (or others), or the one representing an apparent tyrannical regime?

The most unclear part of this whole mess is determining the actual rights & responsibilities of the involved parties. Unfortunately, the only "facts" in the case are the ones chosen to be presented by the two parties.

If you believe the BLM, the Bundy family is nothing but a band of squatters that has been stealing "the people's" resources for generations.

If you believe the Bundy family, the BLM has been extorting money for generations, and not living up to their end of the bargain for the past 50 years.

Which is the truth? I don't know. But I find it extremely questionable to expend the militaristic level of BLM and Federal Government resources to enforce grazing rights in defense of an "endangered" reptile. There is something sinister at play here that leads me to believe the Bundy family, in favor of the BLM.
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#3651484 - 04/21/14 03:25 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: TAFKAP]
de novo
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 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP
Which is the truth? I don't know. But I find it extremely questionable to expend the militaristic level of BLM and Federal Government resources to enforce grazing rights in defense of an "endangered" reptile. There is something sinister at play here that leads me to believe the Bundy family, in favor of the BLM.


I concur with the above explanation.


Here's an article summarizing the BLM/Bundy fiasco. It mentions the preemptive rights the Bundy's spoke about.

The nation’s attention has for the past few weeks been riveted by a standoff in Nevada between armed federal agents and the Bundys, a ranching family who believe the federal government is exceeding its authority by accessing “fees” against ranchers who graze cattle on government lands. Outrage over the government’s use of armed agents to forcibly remove the Bundys’ cattle led many Americans to travel to Nevada to engage in non-violent civil disobedience in support of the family.

The protests seem to have worked, at least for now, as the government appears to have backed off from direct confrontation. Sadly, some elected officials have inflamed the situation by labeling the Bundys and their supporters “domestic terrorists,” thus justifying any future use of force by the government. That means there is always the possibility of another deadly Waco-style raid on the Bundys or a similar group in the future.

In a state like Nevada, where 84 percent of the land is owned by the federal government, these types of conflicts are inevitable. Government ownership of land means that land is in theory owned by everyone, but in practice owned by no one. Thus, those who use the land lack the incentives to preserve it for the long term. As a result, land-use rules are set by politicians and bureaucrats. Oftentimes, the so-called “public” land is used in ways that benefit politically-powerful special interests.

Politicians and bureaucrats can, and will, arbitrarily change the rules governing the land. In the 19th currently, some Americans moved to Nevada because the government promised them that they, and their descendants, would always be able to use the federally-owned land. The Nevada ranchers believed they had an implied contract with the government allowing them to use the land for grazing. When government bureaucrats decided they needed to restrict grazing to protect the desert tortoise, they used force to drive most ranchers away.

By contrast, if the Nevada land in question was privately owned, the dispute over whether to allow the ranchers to continue to use the land would have likely been resolved without sending in federal armed agents to remove the Bundys’ cattle from the land. This is one more reason why the federal government should rid itself of all federal land holdings. Selling federal lands would also help reduce the federal deficit.

It is unlikely that Congress will divest the federal government’s land holdings, as most in government are more interested in increasing government power then in protecting and restoring private property rights.

A government that continually violates our rights of property and contract can fairly be descried as authoritarian. Of course, the politicians and bureaucrats take offense at this term, but how else do you describe a government that forbids Americans from grazing cattle on land they have used for over a century, from buying health insurance that does not met Obamacare’s standards, from trading with Cuba, or even from drinking raw milk! That so many in DC support the NSA spying and the TSA assaults on our privacy shows the low regard that too many in government have for our rights.

History shows us that authoritarian systems, whether fascist, communist, or Keynesian, will inevitably fail. I believe incidents such as that in Nevada show we may be witnessing the failure of the American authoritarian warfare-welfare state — and that of course would be good. This is why it so important that those of us who understand the freedom philosophy spread the truth about how statism caused our problems and why liberty is the only solution.
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#3651672 - 04/21/14 07:26 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: de novo
 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP
There is something sinister at play here that leads me to believe the Bundy family, in favor of the BLM.

. . . . .
Sadly, some elected officials have inflamed the situation by labeling the Bundys and their supporters “domestic terrorists,” thus justifying any future use of force by the government. That means there is always the possibility of another deadly Waco-style raid on the Bundys or a similar group in the future.

. . . . . it so important that those of us who understand the freedom philosophy spread the truth about how statism caused our problems and why liberty is the only solution.

EXACTLY.

Meanwhile in related news . . . . .
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/...tcmp=latestnews

And just how is this related?
Via ILLEGAL executive order, Obama ordered the deaths of American citizens, and he did it thus far with impunity, in violation of our Constitution.

Now, government bureaucrats, including the despicable Harry Reid, are labeling the Bundy's "domestic terrorists" in their latest narrative. Will Obama now order a drone to go kill off those pesky Bundy's as he has already done to other Americans? What's to stop him?

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#3651704 - 04/21/14 07:51 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wes Parrish]
griz01
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Just remember at election time:some of our politicians don't consider shooters on a military base as terrorist but American's exercising First Amendment Rights are.
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#3651717 - 04/21/14 07:57 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: griz01]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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#3651839 - 04/21/14 09:25 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
FLTENNHUNTER1
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Ole Dirty Harry is going to pick a fight with the WRONG people. DON'T TREAD ON ME.
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#3651842 - 04/21/14 09:28 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: FLTENNHUNTER1]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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If this is true, this would be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.

Special Forces Members Among BLM Agents at the Bundy Ranch


Sgt Daniel Love, U.S. Army Airborne – “Green Beret,” was among the BLM agents in the Bundy Ranch Confrontation. In 2010, he was with the 7th Special Forces Group. Sgt Love, part of Special Operations Detachment A (ODA), served in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Several Special Forces Members were among the BLM agents during the standoff, according to information received by USMC. They were likely sent by President Obama. Why do we think that? Let’s look at it. An “A-Team” Daniel Love is part of an “A-Team.” ODA teams have 12 members. They are “self-sustaining and autonomous,” which means that they take orders directly from the White House. They are experts at insertion, and can survive in the middle of nowhere for extended periods of time. Let’s ask the question: why were they part of the action against the Bundy Ranch? Generally, Special Forces teams are deployed in other nations, not in the United States. But apparently, the White House felt the need to deploy extreme soldiers against a patriotic family in Nevada. Orders before oath

http://misguidedchildren.com/domestic-af...ndy-ranch/19404
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#3651867 - 04/21/14 09:48 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bambi Buster
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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
If this is true, this would be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.

Special Forces Members Among BLM Agents at the Bundy Ranch


Sgt Daniel Love, U.S. Army Airborne – “Green Beret,” was among the BLM agents in the Bundy Ranch Confrontation. In 2010, he was with the 7th Special Forces Group. Sgt Love, part of Special Operations Detachment A (ODA), served in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Several Special Forces Members were among the BLM agents during the standoff, according to information received by USMC. They were likely sent by President Obama. Why do we think that? Let’s look at it. An “A-Team” Daniel Love is part of an “A-Team.” ODA teams have 12 members. They are “self-sustaining and autonomous,” which means that they take orders directly from the White House. They are experts at insertion, and can survive in the middle of nowhere for extended periods of time. Let’s ask the question: why were they part of the action against the Bundy Ranch? Generally, Special Forces teams are deployed in other nations, not in the United States. But apparently, the White House felt the need to deploy extreme soldiers against a patriotic family in Nevada. Orders before oath

http://misguidedchildren.com/domestic-af...ndy-ranch/19404


I saw nothing in the article to indicate that BLM agent Dan Love is currently serving in the U.S. Army, aside from this laughable little snippet, which gives lie to any credibility the piece might have had:

"....Once you are a member of Special Ops, you remain a member until you retire or die. You work for the government, period. It’s all about the orders..."

_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

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#3651981 - 04/22/14 05:09 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
MUP
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Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46174
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Offline
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3652126 - 04/22/14 08:30 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wes Parrish]
OHVATN
4 Point


Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 396
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: de novo
 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP
There is something sinister at play here that leads me to believe the Bundy family, in favor of the BLM.

. . . . .
Sadly, some elected officials have inflamed the situation by labeling the Bundys and their supporters “domestic terrorists,” thus justifying any future use of force by the government. That means there is always the possibility of another deadly Waco-style raid on the Bundys or a similar group in the future.

. . . . . it so important that those of us who understand the freedom philosophy spread the truth about how statism caused our problems and why liberty is the only solution.

EXACTLY.

Meanwhile in related news . . . . .
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/...tcmp=latestnews

And just how is this related?
Via ILLEGAL executive order, Obama ordered the deaths of American citizens, and he did it thus far with impunity, in violation of our Constitution.

Now, government bureaucrats, including the despicable Harry Reid, are labeling the Bundy's "domestic terrorists" in their latest narrative. Will Obama now order a drone to go kill off those pesky Bundy's as he has already done to other Americans? What's to stop him?


I agree with you, but wait a minute. Where was all the "conservative" outcry when the Patriot Act, NDAA, the NSA spying, the drone program were started under the Bush administration? Is it only that they have been targeted at Muslim Americans overseas in addition to other Muslim terrorists? "Conservatives" actually believe these programs keep us safe and because "I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to fear"? You can't have it both ways. And it's not because the programs are now in the hands of a liberal progressive. They are equally dangerous to our freedoms regardless of who is in charge. Remember the words of Benjamin Franklin.

Why is everyone so surprised that these programs are being turned around and aimed at Americans. They, regardless of political party, are keeping you safe right? Isn't that all that matters? That's all rhetorical. Nonetheless, when an Americans rights are violated, your rights are violated. It doesn't make any difference whether you are a white male, Muslim, or homosexual. Do you really thin we'd have this fed.gov behemoth with Jim Crow, segregation, or if Eisenhower had been listened to and the communist boogeyman wouldn't have been allowed to distract us into starting the construction of the national security state. Bush II/Obama have used modern IT to expand to massive proportions. As others have said, elections have consequences, but so does hysteria and propaganda.
_________________________
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken

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#3652137 - 04/22/14 08:40 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: OHVATN]
griz01
Spike


Registered: 12/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Wisconsin

Offline
Every SWAT team is a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act
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#3652184 - 04/22/14 09:19 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: OHVATN]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: OHVATN
. . . . . the programs are now in the hands of a liberal progressive. They are equally dangerous to our freedoms regardless of who is in charge.

While I can agree that certain "programs" are equally dangerous to our freedoms, I disagree about the "regardless of who is charge", as among other things, the guy in charge is either expanding those programs or curtailing them.

Also wasn't just talking about certain "programs". I was talking about illegal and unconstitutional executive orders being fired off at an unprecedented rate by Barack Obama. I was talking about the illegal transfer of power to government agencies behaving more like Russian Czars, like the BLM and the EPA, where they make quick arbitrary decisions to suddenly criminalize otherwise law-abiding Americans, even to the extent of threatening to bankrupt or even kill them if they don't comply.

We as Americans elected Barack Obama under his guise of CHANGE and TRANSPARENCY. Instead, not only has Obama simply continued and accelerated the worst of the status quo, but he has brought the worst of Chicago-style politics to Washington, himself often behaving in an arrogant and stupid manner, dividing rather than uniting Americans. He and his administration behaves more as a lawless dictatorship, only selectively enforcing existing law against those citizens considered not supportive of his ideals. Meanwhile, both illegal aliens and legal citizens deemed supportive of Obama's ideals are actually ENCOURAGED to break our laws with impunity by the Obama administration.

The bigger problem becomes that when laws are only selectively enforced based on politics, we no longer have any law & order, which has been much of the glue holding our society together, the premise of equal justice for all.

Meanwhile, let us not forget about all the innocent women and children, all American citizens, who were essentially murdered in Waco, TX by a government agency not that long ago. Why? How did that happen? Something very similar came to within a heartbeat of happening with the BLM/Bundy debacle.

Did the "punishments" fit the crimes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

Think about it.

Top
#3652191 - 04/22/14 09:28 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
Locksley
16 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 19739
Loc: Antioch TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The reason the founding fathers were against a standing army is that the soldiers in that standing army have in the past times had loyalty to the man paying them. The militia is fighting for their home not for the man as a hirling for the ruler.
_________________________
To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;"The greatest pain a man can suffer is to have knowledge of much, and power over nothing" - Herodotus

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#3652194 - 04/22/14 09:29 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Locksley
16 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 19739
Loc: Antioch TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck

top cowboys vs invaders.
_________________________
To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;"The greatest pain a man can suffer is to have knowledge of much, and power over nothing" - Herodotus

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#3652317 - 04/22/14 11:21 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: OHVATN]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4032
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: OHVATN


I agree with you, but wait a minute. Where was all the "conservative" outcry when the Patriot Act, NDAA, the NSA spying, the drone program were started under the Bush administration?


There's a few on here who have been criticizing these programs since the times of Bush. The article I quoted above about the Bundy standoff is Ron Paul's take on the situation. Not surprisingly all it took was one out of control Socialist to get more people to see we may have been right all along.
_________________________
“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

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#3652484 - 04/22/14 02:44 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: griz01]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8974
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: griz01
Every SWAT team is a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act


Wow.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

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#3652515 - 04/22/14 03:29 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8974
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

Top
#3652542 - 04/22/14 03:52 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4032
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


How might the situation have been different if the demographics were changed? Suppose instead of a group of mostly white BLM agents who at times looked uncomfortable in their mission, an all minority unit was sent against the Bundy's. Or a Muslim unit, or a gay, lesbian, and transgender unit? Might they be more inclined to use deadly force against a group of mostly white, conservative Americans many have been trained in school to resent or even hate?
_________________________
“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

Top
#3652564 - 04/22/14 04:21 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8974
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: de novo
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


How might the situation have been different if the demographics were changed? Suppose instead of a group of mostly white BLM agents who at times looked uncomfortable in their mission, an all minority unit was sent against the Bundy's. Or a Muslim unit, or a gay, lesbian, and transgender unit? Might they be more inclined to use deadly force against a group of mostly white, conservative Americans many have been trained in school to resent or even hate?


Since we're dealing with totally hypothetical situations, keep in mind that demographic animosity/hostility and the results thereof could have flowed both ways.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

Top
#3652571 - 04/22/14 04:28 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
Here you go . . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/22/nev...s-cliven-bundy/

Long before Cliven Bundy faced down federal agents in his dispute with the Bureau of Land Management over grazing rights, fellow Nevada rancher Raymond Yowell, an 84-year-old former Shoshone chief, watched as the BLM seized his herd.

Adding to that, since 2008 they've taken his money as well . . . .

. . . . he argues his cattle were taken without due process and in violation of multiple treaties.

“Certainly, due process of law has not been followed in my case,” Yowell told FoxNews.com. “When we were kids going to school, learning the white way, we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning and one of the things I remember saying is ‘equality and justice for all.’ Well that’s certainly not the case.”

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#3652587 - 04/22/14 04:55 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4032
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: de novo
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


How might the situation have been different if the demographics were changed? Suppose instead of a group of mostly white BLM agents who at times looked uncomfortable in their mission, an all minority unit was sent against the Bundy's. Or a Muslim unit, or a gay, lesbian, and transgender unit? Might they be more inclined to use deadly force against a group of mostly white, conservative Americans many have been trained in school to resent or even hate?


Since we're dealing with totally hypothetical situations, keep in mind that demographic animosity/hostility and the results thereof could have flowed both ways.



However, videos of the knockout game and other assorted mob/ riot violence shows this hostility in fact does not flow both ways evenly.
_________________________
“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

Top
#3652778 - 04/22/14 08:07 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Wes Parrish]
FLTENNHUNTER1
16 Point


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 16499
Loc: Tampa FL

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Here you go . . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/22/nev...s-cliven-bundy/

Long before Cliven Bundy faced down federal agents in his dispute with the Bureau of Land Management over grazing rights, fellow Nevada rancher Raymond Yowell, an 84-year-old former Shoshone chief, watched as the BLM seized his herd.

Adding to that, since 2008 they've taken his money as well . . . .

. . . . he argues his cattle were taken without due process and in violation of multiple treaties.

“Certainly, due process of law has not been followed in my case,” Yowell told FoxNews.com. “When we were kids going to school, learning the white way, we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning and one of the things I remember saying is ‘equality Liberty and justice for all.’ Well that’s certainly not the case.”


Ole Pale Face has been reciting it wrong all these years? \:D
_________________________
"The fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follow that, and in its turn wretchedness and oppression."
--Thomas Jefferson

17.9 Trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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#3652804 - 04/22/14 08:21 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
FLTENNHUNTER1
16 Point


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 16499
Loc: Tampa FL

Offline
 Originally Posted By: de novo
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


How might the situation have been different if the demographics were changed? Suppose instead of a group of mostly white BLM agents who at times looked uncomfortable in their mission, an all minority unit was sent against the Bundy's. Or a Muslim unit, or a gay, lesbian, and transgender unit? Might they be more inclined to use deadly force against a group of mostly white, conservative Americans many have been trained in school to resent or even hate?


I can't imagine any freedom loving American NOT feeling uncomfortable in this particular mission. I know of at least one FBI Agent who committed suicide after the atrocities committed at WACO. I can't imagine at least some of the BLM agents feeling guilty for following the orders that put them in this situation. We have a U.S. Senator calling Americans "Domestic Terrorists", said they had "automatic weapons" and "sniper" rifles. I cannot believe the NRA has endorsed this fool. He needs to be removed from office immediately.
_________________________
"The fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follow that, and in its turn wretchedness and oppression."
--Thomas Jefferson

17.9 Trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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#3652815 - 04/22/14 08:27 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
FLTENNHUNTER1
16 Point


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 16499
Loc: Tampa FL

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


I think I understand what you are saying; Katrina comes to mind as an example of some interviewed military personnel who stated they would shoot Americans.
_________________________
"The fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follow that, and in its turn wretchedness and oppression."
--Thomas Jefferson

17.9 Trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Top
#3652843 - 04/22/14 08:49 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: FLTENNHUNTER1]
Crappie Luck Moderator
Non-Typical


Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61853
Loc: Smith Co.

Offline
"The U.S. government wants the 67-year-old rancher to pay more than $1 million in grazing fees, but Bundy does not recognize the federal government."

Where does the media come up with these quotes? So they just throw stuff out there to see what sticks?
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

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#3652989 - 04/23/14 04:55 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46174
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3653463 - 04/23/14 03:29 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8974
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?


America according to MUP/The Constitution according to MUP. Same difference. It's in the "according to" that the problem lies. The problem is that when there is no consensus as to what the America/the Constitution mean and no consensus on who has the final say in what they mean, there will be no America. Everybody doing whatever they feel like is a recipe for anarchy, mob rule, or tribalism at best.

Both of the Ft Hood shooters were United States citizens. Though they were both stopped by contract civilian law enforcement officers, If they had been shot by MPs, would that have been a violation of Posse Comitatus? Enemies of the Constitution are not always foreign nationals.

In reply to your post about standing armies, I suggest a close look at the U.S. Army oath of enlistment. I would be genuinely interested in what changes in wording that you or others here might suggest.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

Top
#3653480 - 04/23/14 03:58 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4032
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster


I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


It creates uncertainty when the first part of the oath (defend the Constitution) and the second part (obey the POTUS) are in direct conflict.


 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


Ted Kennedy's Immigration Act of 1965 can be added to that list.
_________________________
“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

Top
#3653506 - 04/23/14 04:45 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46174
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?


America according to MUP/The Constitution according to MUP. Same difference. It's in the "according to" that the problem lies. The problem is that when there is no consensus as to what the America/the Constitution mean and no consensus on who has the final say in what they mean, there will be no America. Everybody doing whatever they feel like is a recipe for anarchy, mob rule, or tribalism at best.

Both of the Ft Hood shooters were United States citizens. Though they were both stopped by contract civilian law enforcement officers, If they had been shot by MPs, would that have been a violation of Posse Comitatus? Enemies of the Constitution are not always foreign nationals.

In reply to your post about standing armies, I suggest a close look at the U.S. Army oath of enlistment. I would be genuinely interested in what changes in wording that you or others here might suggest.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


No change in wording at all, just that it be adhered too. Whats the issue with that? And I take, by your reference to the Ft. Hood shootings, that you do see Mr Bundy as a domestic terrorist after all, correct?
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

Top
#3653510 - 04/23/14 04:51 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
DirtyBear0311
8 Point


Registered: 09/01/12
Posts: 1756
Loc: Milan, TN

content Online
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?


America according to MUP/The Constitution according to MUP. Same difference. It's in the "according to" that the problem lies. The problem is that when there is no consensus as to what the America/the Constitution mean and no consensus on who has the final say in what they mean, there will be no America. Everybody doing whatever they feel like is a recipe for anarchy, mob rule, or tribalism at best.

Both of the Ft Hood shooters were United States citizens. Though they were both stopped by contract civilian law enforcement officers, If they had been shot by MPs, would that have been a violation of Posse Comitatus? Enemies of the Constitution are not always foreign nationals.

In reply to your post about standing armies, I suggest a close look at the U.S. Army oath of enlistment. I would be genuinely interested in what changes in wording that you or others here might suggest.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


No change in wording at all, just that it be adhered too. Whats the issue with that? And I take, by your reference to the Ft. Hood shootings, that you do see Mr Bundy as a domestic terrorist after all, correct?


Out of curiosity, how has the oath not been adhered too?
_________________________
Semper Fi

Just because it's bad-a** don't mean it's a good idea.


Top
#3653513 - 04/23/14 04:54 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46174
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: de novo
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster


[color:#000066]I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


It creates uncertainty when the first part of the oath (defend the Constitution) and the second part (obey the POTUS) are in direct conflict.


My thoughts as well.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3653514 - 04/23/14 04:56 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8974
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?


America according to MUP/The Constitution according to MUP. Same difference. It's in the "according to" that the problem lies. The problem is that when there is no consensus as to what the America/the Constitution mean and no consensus on who has the final say in what they mean, there will be no America. Everybody doing whatever they feel like is a recipe for anarchy, mob rule, or tribalism at best.

Both of the Ft Hood shooters were United States citizens. Though they were both stopped by contract civilian law enforcement officers, If they had been shot by MPs, would that have been a violation of Posse Comitatus? Enemies of the Constitution are not always foreign nationals.

In reply to your post about standing armies, I suggest a close look at the U.S. Army oath of enlistment. I would be genuinely interested in what changes in wording that you or others here might suggest.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


No change in wording at all, just that it be adhered too. Whats the issue with that? And I take, by your reference to the Ft. Hood shootings, that you do see Mr Bundy as a domestic terrorist after all, correct?


1. I don't understand what you mean.

2. At this point, I see Mr. Bundy as a deluded domestic scofflaw who believes his personal interpretation of the Constitution and the law are the only correct ones. At this point, I do not consider him a terrorist. Some of his followers, though, are right at the ragged edge.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

Top
#3653515 - 04/23/14 04:58 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8974
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: de novo
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster


I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


It creates uncertainty when the first part of the oath (defend the Constitution) and the second part (obey the POTUS) are in direct conflict.


 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


Ted Kennedy's Immigration Act of 1965 can be added to that list.


Indeed. A major factor in the demographics side of the equation. One of a great many things for which I hope he burns in hell.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

Top
#3653516 - 04/23/14 05:00 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: DirtyBear0311]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46174
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: DirtyBear0311
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?


America according to MUP/The Constitution according to MUP. Same difference. It's in the "according to" that the problem lies. The problem is that when there is no consensus as to what the America/the Constitution mean and no consensus on who has the final say in what they mean, there will be no America. Everybody doing whatever they feel like is a recipe for anarchy, mob rule, or tribalism at best.

Both of the Ft Hood shooters were United States citizens. Though they were both stopped by contract civilian law enforcement officers, If they had been shot by MPs, would that have been a violation of Posse Comitatus? Enemies of the Constitution are not always foreign nationals.

In reply to your post about standing armies, I suggest a close look at the U.S. Army oath of enlistment. I would be genuinely interested in what changes in wording that you or others here might suggest.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


No change in wording at all, just that it be adhered too. Whats the issue with that? And I take, by your reference to the Ft. Hood shootings, that you do see Mr Bundy as a domestic terrorist after all, correct?


Out of curiosity, how has the oath not been adhered too?


By military, former or current, choosing to defend a domestic terrorist, by engaging U.S. citizens. Of course, this is just my opinion.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

Top
#3653521 - 04/23/14 05:07 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46174
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?


America according to MUP/The Constitution according to MUP. Same difference. It's in the "according to" that the problem lies. The problem is that when there is no consensus as to what the America/the Constitution mean and no consensus on who has the final say in what they mean, there will be no America. Everybody doing whatever they feel like is a recipe for anarchy, mob rule, or tribalism at best.

Both of the Ft Hood shooters were United States citizens. Though they were both stopped by contract civilian law enforcement officers, If they had been shot by MPs, would that have been a violation of Posse Comitatus? Enemies of the Constitution are not always foreign nationals.

In reply to your post about standing armies, I suggest a close look at the U.S. Army oath of enlistment. I would be genuinely interested in what changes in wording that you or others here might suggest.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


No change in wording at all, just that it be adhered too. Whats the issue with that? And I take, by your reference to the Ft. Hood shootings, that you do see Mr Bundy as a domestic terrorist after all, correct?


1. I don't understand what you mean.

2. At this point, I see Mr. Bundy as a deluded domestic scofflaw who believes his personal interpretation of the Constitution and the law are the only correct ones. At this point, I do not consider him a terrorist. Some of his followers, though, are right at the ragged edge.



That very well could be, in reference to his "followers", but they weren't there in the beginning when it escalated to govt "soldiers" engaging citizens at gun point. Which of his supporters do you consider on the edge? Oathkeepers?
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

Top
#3653522 - 04/23/14 05:08 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
DirtyBear0311
8 Point


Registered: 09/01/12
Posts: 1756
Loc: Milan, TN

content Online
MUP- domestic terrorists: defending rather than killing them is wrong for anyone who has taken the oath. U.S. citizens: when they are domestic enemies then they need to be engaged.

But when has this really been done by military guys? I have not read about a military guy defending domestic terrorists and engaging U.S. citizens except for the couple crazy's at Ft. Hood and some jihaddists.
_________________________
Semper Fi

Just because it's bad-a** don't mean it's a good idea.


Top
#3653525 - 04/23/14 05:16 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8974
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: MUP
True or not, it significantly diminishes the hope of current, or former, military personnel standing for the constitution and not taking up arms against U.S. citizens.


The Constitution according to MUP.


America according to MUP. We have some awesome military personnel here, and all across the land, and they have admonished that they would never take up arms against our citizenry. This guy in the article is an example of a standing army that was mentioned a few posts ago by Locksley, that gets paid, and does whatever his "employer" tells him to do. Do you not see anything wrong at all with this?


America according to MUP/The Constitution according to MUP. Same difference. It's in the "according to" that the problem lies. The problem is that when there is no consensus as to what the America/the Constitution mean and no consensus on who has the final say in what they mean, there will be no America. Everybody doing whatever they feel like is a recipe for anarchy, mob rule, or tribalism at best.

Both of the Ft Hood shooters were United States citizens. Though they were both stopped by contract civilian law enforcement officers, If they had been shot by MPs, would that have been a violation of Posse Comitatus? Enemies of the Constitution are not always foreign nationals.

In reply to your post about standing armies, I suggest a close look at the U.S. Army oath of enlistment. I would be genuinely interested in what changes in wording that you or others here might suggest.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Unfortunately, perhaps even fatally for our Republic, universal suffrage, demographics, and elections have consequences.


No change in wording at all, just that it be adhered too. Whats the issue with that? And I take, by your reference to the Ft. Hood shootings, that you do see Mr Bundy as a domestic terrorist after all, correct?


1. I don't understand what you mean.

2. At this point, I see Mr. Bundy as a deluded domestic scofflaw who believes his personal interpretation of the Constitution and the law are the only correct ones. At this point, I do not consider him a terrorist. Some of his followers, though, are right at the ragged edge.



That very well could be, in reference to his "followers", but they weren't there in the beginning when it escalated to govt "soldiers" engaging citizens at gun point. Which of his supporters do you consider on the edge? Oathkeepers?


I've not seen a credible timeline as to who said what first and who showed up where/when, so I do not accept your premise.

Some of the more strident Oathkeepers are very definitely on that edge, and I say that with the uneasy knowledge that some of my acquaintances are almost certainly members.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

Top
#3653628 - 04/23/14 08:06 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Bambi Buster]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4032
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster


2. At this point, I see Mr. Bundy as a deluded domestic scofflaw who believes his personal interpretation of the Constitution and the law are the only correct ones. At this point, I do not consider him a terrorist. Some of his followers, though, are right at the ragged edge.


I see Mr. Bundy as a simple man on the ragged edge of hero or patriot. He merely wants to work and provide for himself and his family. He refused to submit to federal regulations that would destroy his livelihood and in all likelihood force him to lose the land that's been in his family nice the 1870's. He's willing to die to stand up to out of control government forces. This government is far past the ragged edge of statism.
_________________________
“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

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#3653633 - 04/23/14 08:15 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: de novo]
Crappie Luck Moderator
Non-Typical


Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61853
Loc: Smith Co.

Offline
in other news today....



SOURCE First Solar Media press release: “First Solar is thrilled to celebrate this important milestone with Sen. Reid and distinguished guests,
and honored to work with the Moapa Band of Paiutes on this landmark project,” said Jim Hughes, the CEO of First Solar.



Signaling the first day of construction of the Moapa Southern Paiute Solar Project, which is about 35 miles from the Bundy homestead in Bunkerville, Nevada, Sen. Reid (far right) hoists shovel, joined by representatives from the Moapa Band of Paiutes, executives from First Solar, Inc. and the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power for the groundbreaking ceremony on March 21, 2014.
PIC/First Solar
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

Top
#3653636 - 04/23/14 08:16 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
Non-Typical


Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61853
Loc: Smith Co.

Offline
Didn't Reid say it was more than a hundred miles to the nearest Solar farm project?
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

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#3653641 - 04/23/14 08:19 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
Crappie Luck Moderator
Non-Typical


Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61853
Loc: Smith Co.

Offline
more info on First Solar

http://greencorruption.blogspot.com/2012/06/obama-tied-troubled-first-solar-3.html#.U1hodyijdcR
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

Top
#3653686 - 04/23/14 08:59 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
AndyW
10 Point


Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 4537
Loc: Allardt, TN

content Online
I hope that shovel full of dirt Reid has was enough to blow his lower back out.
_________________________
This fall, FIRE THEM ALL. Re-elect NO ONE!!!!!

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#3653691 - 04/23/14 09:02 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: AndyW]
Crappie Luck Moderator
Non-Typical


Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61853
Loc: Smith Co.

Offline
I doubt that is the first hole in the desert that Mob funded POS has dug
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

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#3653774 - 04/23/14 09:59 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: Crappie Luck]
FLTENNHUNTER1
16 Point


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 16499
Loc: Tampa FL

Offline
Oklahoma Volunteer Militia Co-Founder Scott Shaw in an interview with Bill O'Reilly last night, I watched it live and it was a great interview:

Domestic Terrorist or Patriot, you decide!
_________________________
"The fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follow that, and in its turn wretchedness and oppression."
--Thomas Jefferson

17.9 Trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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#3653842 - 04/24/14 04:51 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: DirtyBear0311]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46174
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: DirtyBear0311
MUP- domestic terrorists: defending rather than killing them is wrong for anyone who has taken the oath. U.S. citizens: when they are domestic enemies then they need to be engaged.

But when has this really been done by military guys? I have not read about a military guy defending domestic terrorists and engaging U.S. citizens except for the couple crazy's at Ft. Hood and some jihaddists.


I was referencing Harry Reid as the terrorist in this situation, and probably several members of the current administration...and the BLM as the govt entity defending them. ;\)
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3654302 - 04/24/14 02:54 PM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: MUP]
DirtyBear0311
8 Point


Registered: 09/01/12
Posts: 1756
Loc: Milan, TN

content Online
 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: DirtyBear0311
MUP- domestic terrorists: defending rather than killing them is wrong for anyone who has taken the oath. U.S. citizens: when they are domestic enemies then they need to be engaged.

But when has this really been done by military guys? I have not read about a military guy defending domestic terrorists and engaging U.S. citizens except for the couple crazy's at Ft. Hood and some jihaddists.


I was referencing Harry Reid as the terrorist in this situation, and probably several members of the current administration...and the BLM as the govt entity defending them. ;\)


You will get no argument from me about whether or not that POS Reid is a domestic terrorist or some of the folks in office right now.
_________________________
Semper Fi

Just because it's bad-a** don't mean it's a good idea.


Top
#3655074 - 04/25/14 10:54 AM Re: More info of the BLM/Bundy stand off [Re: AndyW]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9779
Loc: Memphis

Offline
 Originally Posted By: AndyW
I hope that shovel full of dirt Reid has was enough to blow his lower back out.


Doesn't look like he's that far off. That woman seems to have an easier time operating a shovel than Dingy Harry.
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

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