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#3640092 - 04/09/14 10:36 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
JandSCattleCo
8 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 1079
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?
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#3640095 - 04/09/14 10:44 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: RUGER]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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Is this new? I always thought Pope & Young and Boone & Crockett did not take high fenced entries.

And I am with yall, I hate high fenced hunting. And I don't care if it is 5 acres or 20,000 acres. The way they can manipulate the genetics, the nutrition, all of the habitat, who hunts, what is killed, and all that makes it be a "canned" hunt.

I even think that the big time highly managed operations of huge hunting preserves and such are still "canned" hunts.

I believe that a guy that kills a 120"er with bow or gun on his "back 40" is more impressive and should get more representation than anyone who kills a 180"er in any of these "TV" hunting places weather they are high fenced or not.

I know that I would be more happy with the spikes and stuff that I killed when I was a youngster than I would with a boone & crockett from one of these special pay to hunt places, fence or no fence.

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#3640101 - 04/09/14 10:49 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


My response to all of your questions above is a stern "no."
Most of the people that use all of that gimmick crap are TV hunters and yuppys who fall into the swirling cess pool of TV hunting advertisements.
I have a centerfire rifle but do not shoot 500 yards because I can't see that far.
I have a rangefinder but don't use it because batteries go dead in about 20 seconds.
I wear camoflauge to help, but scent shield and scent locker clothing is ridicoulusly fake.
Trail cameras are not used for telling what time a particular buck comes through every day. They are used to let you know what all animals are using the place. Only if you are rich enough to afford the trail cameras that text a picture to you or get in on email can be the ones you scout what time bucks use an area. If your like me and have to go into an area to check memory cards then you "booger" it up some and turn some of the deer nocturnal.

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#3640103 - 04/09/14 10:51 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


You got that right.......
But P&Y has some animals in there books that ARE HIGH FENCED
FT C Birdcage Deer, I know of a couple in the book, that place still had 2 fences around it when those went in the book...
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#3640237 - 04/09/14 12:40 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: woodsman87]
JandSCattleCo
8 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 1079
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


My response to all of your questions above is a stern "no."
Most of the people that use all of that gimmick crap are TV hunters and yuppys who fall into the swirling cess pool of TV hunting advertisements.
I have a centerfire rifle but do not shoot 500 yards because I can't see that far.
I have a rangefinder but don't use it because batteries go dead in about 20 seconds.
I wear camoflauge to help, but scent shield and scent locker clothing is ridicoulusly fake.
Trail cameras are not used for telling what time a particular buck comes through every day. They are used to let you know what all animals are using the place. Only if you are rich enough to afford the trail cameras that text a picture to you or get in on email can be the ones you scout what time bucks use an area. If your like me and have to go into an area to check memory cards then you "booger" it up some and turn some of the deer nocturnal.


Doesnt matter IF you choose to, its the fact that you COULD.
_________________________
moderndayoutdoorsman.wordpress.com

-Breathe Easy

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#3640257 - 04/09/14 12:58 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: woodsman87]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27878
Loc: TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
Is this new? I always thought Pope & Young and Boone & Crockett did not take high fenced entries.

And I am with yall, I hate high fenced hunting. And I don't care if it is 5 acres or 20,000 acres. The way they can manipulate the genetics, the nutrition, all of the habitat, who hunts, what is killed, and all that makes it be a "canned" hunt.

I even think that the big time highly managed operations of huge hunting preserves and such are still "canned" hunts.

I believe that a guy that kills a 120"er with bow or gun on his "back 40" is more impressive and should get more representation than anyone who kills a 180"er in any of these "TV" hunting places weather they are high fenced or not.

I know that I would be more happy with the spikes and stuff that I killed when I was a youngster than I would with a boone & crockett from one of these special pay to hunt places, fence or no fence.


NO, these rules aren't new and have been in place by P&Y for many years.

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#3640314 - 04/09/14 01:44 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 42314
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


Long been the sticking point. Far too general. I have hunted a 42,000 acre, high-fence ranch that was as canned as it can get. However, I also hunted a 480-acre enclosure that was as fair chase as it gets.

But, somewhere you have to take a stand. Wait a minoozle. Why do you have to take a stand? I don't think I need an organization to tell me what is ethical and what isn't. The really big rub is when you start proclaiming records and getting your name in the book. Then you need a rule book.
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#3640388 - 04/09/14 03:07 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: bowriter]
Master Chief
10 Point


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 3075
Loc: Henderson County

Offline
If there is a high fence around it, it is a high fenced canned hunt. The fence is there, whether it be 50 or 50,000 acres, to keep nature out rather than the "monster bucks" in. The fence allows you to selectively control genetics. Nature controls dispersal and other elememts limiting genetic manipulation. When this factor is removed it becomes an unatural setting.
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Shed hunting and trail camera addict

"It's not whatcha got, it's what you give." -Tesla

"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."
-John Muir

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#3640401 - 04/09/14 03:18 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
Master Chief
10 Point


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 3075
Loc: Henderson County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


Is private land with management fair chase? By your logic, seeing as it can make hunting easier, no, it isn't. Of course in reality what your leaning towards would mean that the only way for it to be "fair" would be for us to tackle deer and strangle them wth our bare hands. A long range rifle isn't fair to a deer, but neither is a spear. I've never seen a deer throw a spear anyways.
_________________________
Shed hunting and trail camera addict

"It's not whatcha got, it's what you give." -Tesla

"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."
-John Muir

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#3640419 - 04/09/14 03:58 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?


Where the pursued animal has a fair chance of evading the pursuer. Another definition is the hunting of any game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

 Quote:
Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes


Some hunters use one or more of these tools and other do not. However, how well has the widespread access to these tools proven to eliminate "fair chase?" We have about 30 million whitetails in the U.S. Hunters--many of them using the tools you mentioned--kill about 6 million of those whitetails annually. That's far from excessive. In fact, it sounds like the average hunter is not very effective at killing deer. In TN, less than half of hunters kill even one deer each year, and only 1 in 3 kill a buck. So these common hunting tools don't appear to provide an excessive or unfair advantage.


 Quote:
In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.


I have a real problem with someone think hunting tools used by average hunters are somehow equally unfair as penned hunts, where a buck is released into a 2-acre enclosure so it can be shot. That buck's odds of survival are about zero. Yet from the harvest numbers, we can see that hunters using tools you consider "nothing fair about" them, can't kill more than about 1 in 5 deer alive.

I'm not for a second saying these tools don't provide advantages to the hunters. Unquestionably, they do. But they do not appear to provide an unfair advantage, unlike penned hunts, which are zero-chance survival situations for the animals.

Now where a "canned" hunt becomes just a high-fenced situation, I really have no idea. When does an enclosure cross the line from fair to unfair? I don't know, but I've sure seen some high-fenced properties where most of the deer behind the fence don't know they're enclosed or limited in movement.

Personally, I have no interest in hunting inside of a fenced property, no matter how large the acreage enclosed. But thinking some of these large high-fences don't provide a perfectly "fair chase" environment is foolishness.
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