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#3639406 - 04/08/14 04:33 PM P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting
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Mud Dauber
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http://www.lsonews.com/pope-young-club-weighs-high-fenced-hunting/

The Pope & Young Club official position statement:

The Pope and Young Club and its membership strongly condemn the killing of big game animals in artificial situations. An “artificial situation” is defined as a situation where animals are held in captivity, game-proof fenced enclosures or released from captivity. These unethical practices are often referred to as “canned hunts.” This shall be considered an unethical practice devoid of fair chase hunting ethics as the animals are not free-ranging.

These canned shoot situations present further concerns that impact the future of bowhunting. They weaken the public acceptance of legitimate fair chase bowhunting, provide possibilities for transmitting diseases, and corrupt the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. Animals held, or bred and raised for the purpose of trophy harvest, in these facilities are not considered wildlife. The killing of these animals is not managed by the authority of a wildlife management agency and the killing, itself, is devoid of any values embodied by legitimate hunting.

The Pope and Young Club does not accept into its Records Program any animal taken under any captive scenarios and considers these practices extreme examples of unethical hunting. The Pope & Young Club also considers this practice unethical treatment of North American big game animals.”
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#3639526 - 04/08/14 07:07 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Poser]
in the dog house!
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Agreed!
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#3639773 - 04/09/14 12:29 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: in the dog house!]
Columbia Scott
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Well, they should let me list my jacked up little 8 point in their record books. I'm proud of it!

I hate canned hunts too. People that actually pay for those are LOSERS!!!
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#3639819 - 04/09/14 05:29 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Columbia Scott]
TRIGGER
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Attaboy P&Y
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#3639834 - 04/09/14 05:42 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: TRIGGER]
Grill-n-man
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Ah finally someone with a backbone.
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#3639869 - 04/09/14 06:39 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Grill-n-man]
tickweed
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Registered: 11/25/09
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good deal
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#3639901 - 04/09/14 07:26 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: tickweed]
BSK
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Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.
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#3639998 - 04/09/14 08:53 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
Crosshairy
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Registered: 08/22/06
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


Agreed.

This is particularly head-scratching when looking at options of hunting stuff in Texas, where high-fenced ranches can be thousands (or tens of thousands) of acres. At some point, it is "effectively free-range", but that can vary based on things like the habitat enclosed and the species of animal in question.

For example...high fenced squirrel hunts in hardwoods environments. I have no problem with those whatsoever ;\)
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#3640022 - 04/09/14 09:19 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Poser]
Vermin93
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Registered: 12/11/10
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Having participated in it, I'm against it all. It's more than just the size of the high fenced pen. There's all the breeding, farming, genetic manipulation, trading and transportation that is frequently part of the commercial high fenced industry.

Boone and Crockett has similar position statements on these and a number of other subjects on their website. Here are a few examples -

Boone and Crockett Club position statement Canned Shoots

Boone and Crockett Club position statement Genetic Manipulation of Game

Boone and Crockett Club position statement FAIR CHASE

I personally hope these practices develop such a negative stigma that it all comes crashing down commercially on those involved. I would like to see the collapse of this industry in Texas and elsewhere.
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#3640072 - 04/09/14 10:12 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Vermin93]
RUGER Administrator
Mouse Killa
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Anything smaller than 3 acres is canned.
Anything larger is free range.


\:D


hee hee


That's what Jimmy Houston told me anyway.
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#3640092 - 04/09/14 10:36 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
JandSCattleCo
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Registered: 11/01/10
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?
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#3640095 - 04/09/14 10:44 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: RUGER]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
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Is this new? I always thought Pope & Young and Boone & Crockett did not take high fenced entries.

And I am with yall, I hate high fenced hunting. And I don't care if it is 5 acres or 20,000 acres. The way they can manipulate the genetics, the nutrition, all of the habitat, who hunts, what is killed, and all that makes it be a "canned" hunt.

I even think that the big time highly managed operations of huge hunting preserves and such are still "canned" hunts.

I believe that a guy that kills a 120"er with bow or gun on his "back 40" is more impressive and should get more representation than anyone who kills a 180"er in any of these "TV" hunting places weather they are high fenced or not.

I know that I would be more happy with the spikes and stuff that I killed when I was a youngster than I would with a boone & crockett from one of these special pay to hunt places, fence or no fence.

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#3640101 - 04/09/14 10:49 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
woodsman87
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Registered: 09/27/12
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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


My response to all of your questions above is a stern "no."
Most of the people that use all of that gimmick crap are TV hunters and yuppys who fall into the swirling cess pool of TV hunting advertisements.
I have a centerfire rifle but do not shoot 500 yards because I can't see that far.
I have a rangefinder but don't use it because batteries go dead in about 20 seconds.
I wear camoflauge to help, but scent shield and scent locker clothing is ridicoulusly fake.
Trail cameras are not used for telling what time a particular buck comes through every day. They are used to let you know what all animals are using the place. Only if you are rich enough to afford the trail cameras that text a picture to you or get in on email can be the ones you scout what time bucks use an area. If your like me and have to go into an area to check memory cards then you "booger" it up some and turn some of the deer nocturnal.

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#3640103 - 04/09/14 10:51 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
landman
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Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2423
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


You got that right.......
But P&Y has some animals in there books that ARE HIGH FENCED
FT C Birdcage Deer, I know of a couple in the book, that place still had 2 fences around it when those went in the book...
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#3640237 - 04/09/14 12:40 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: woodsman87]
JandSCattleCo
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Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 1065
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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


My response to all of your questions above is a stern "no."
Most of the people that use all of that gimmick crap are TV hunters and yuppys who fall into the swirling cess pool of TV hunting advertisements.
I have a centerfire rifle but do not shoot 500 yards because I can't see that far.
I have a rangefinder but don't use it because batteries go dead in about 20 seconds.
I wear camoflauge to help, but scent shield and scent locker clothing is ridicoulusly fake.
Trail cameras are not used for telling what time a particular buck comes through every day. They are used to let you know what all animals are using the place. Only if you are rich enough to afford the trail cameras that text a picture to you or get in on email can be the ones you scout what time bucks use an area. If your like me and have to go into an area to check memory cards then you "booger" it up some and turn some of the deer nocturnal.


Doesnt matter IF you choose to, its the fact that you COULD.
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#3640257 - 04/09/14 12:58 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: woodsman87]
Winchester
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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
Is this new? I always thought Pope & Young and Boone & Crockett did not take high fenced entries.

And I am with yall, I hate high fenced hunting. And I don't care if it is 5 acres or 20,000 acres. The way they can manipulate the genetics, the nutrition, all of the habitat, who hunts, what is killed, and all that makes it be a "canned" hunt.

I even think that the big time highly managed operations of huge hunting preserves and such are still "canned" hunts.

I believe that a guy that kills a 120"er with bow or gun on his "back 40" is more impressive and should get more representation than anyone who kills a 180"er in any of these "TV" hunting places weather they are high fenced or not.

I know that I would be more happy with the spikes and stuff that I killed when I was a youngster than I would with a boone & crockett from one of these special pay to hunt places, fence or no fence.


NO, these rules aren't new and have been in place by P&Y for many years.

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#3640314 - 04/09/14 01:44 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


Long been the sticking point. Far too general. I have hunted a 42,000 acre, high-fence ranch that was as canned as it can get. However, I also hunted a 480-acre enclosure that was as fair chase as it gets.

But, somewhere you have to take a stand. Wait a minoozle. Why do you have to take a stand? I don't think I need an organization to tell me what is ethical and what isn't. The really big rub is when you start proclaiming records and getting your name in the book. Then you need a rule book.
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#3640388 - 04/09/14 03:07 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: bowriter]
Master Chief
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If there is a high fence around it, it is a high fenced canned hunt. The fence is there, whether it be 50 or 50,000 acres, to keep nature out rather than the "monster bucks" in. The fence allows you to selectively control genetics. Nature controls dispersal and other elememts limiting genetic manipulation. When this factor is removed it becomes an unatural setting.
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#3640401 - 04/09/14 03:18 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
Master Chief
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Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2685
Loc: Henderson County

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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


Is private land with management fair chase? By your logic, seeing as it can make hunting easier, no, it isn't. Of course in reality what your leaning towards would mean that the only way for it to be "fair" would be for us to tackle deer and strangle them wth our bare hands. A long range rifle isn't fair to a deer, but neither is a spear. I've never seen a deer throw a spear anyways.
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#3640419 - 04/09/14 03:58 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?


Where the pursued animal has a fair chance of evading the pursuer. Another definition is the hunting of any game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

 Quote:
Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes


Some hunters use one or more of these tools and other do not. However, how well has the widespread access to these tools proven to eliminate "fair chase?" We have about 30 million whitetails in the U.S. Hunters--many of them using the tools you mentioned--kill about 6 million of those whitetails annually. That's far from excessive. In fact, it sounds like the average hunter is not very effective at killing deer. In TN, less than half of hunters kill even one deer each year, and only 1 in 3 kill a buck. So these common hunting tools don't appear to provide an excessive or unfair advantage.


 Quote:
In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.


I have a real problem with someone think hunting tools used by average hunters are somehow equally unfair as penned hunts, where a buck is released into a 2-acre enclosure so it can be shot. That buck's odds of survival are about zero. Yet from the harvest numbers, we can see that hunters using tools you consider "nothing fair about" them, can't kill more than about 1 in 5 deer alive.

I'm not for a second saying these tools don't provide advantages to the hunters. Unquestionably, they do. But they do not appear to provide an unfair advantage, unlike penned hunts, which are zero-chance survival situations for the animals.

Now where a "canned" hunt becomes just a high-fenced situation, I really have no idea. When does an enclosure cross the line from fair to unfair? I don't know, but I've sure seen some high-fenced properties where most of the deer behind the fence don't know they're enclosed or limited in movement.

Personally, I have no interest in hunting inside of a fenced property, no matter how large the acreage enclosed. But thinking some of these large high-fences don't provide a perfectly "fair chase" environment is foolishness.
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#3640449 - 04/09/14 04:30 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: RUGER]
easy45
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Registered: 11/06/07
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good deal
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#3640584 - 04/09/14 07:00 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: easy45]
BHC
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Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 782
Loc: Wayne Co. , Tennessee

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II kinda think it's funny how in no way did our fathers and grandfathers and so on reject technology. Some ppl get all worked up because new technologies come out that help the hunter more so than traditional methods did.

However I do agree high fences are not ethical in many situations however on a 20-30,000 acres ranch.. I don't really see a problem with it... I still probably wouldn't do it, just not my thing... It's also a big difference between places that raise deer, and places with 100% wild herds...

I'm glad p&y doesn't support it tho..
However I don't support all of p&y's rules...
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#3640660 - 04/09/14 08:00 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3372
Loc: maury county tn

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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


lol some of those things you mentioned have hurt more hunters then helped and the number one thing on that list that have hurt more then help for the most part is trail cameras. granted a lot of rifles that can shoot at 500 yards. that doesn't mean the shooter can. youd be surpised how many people don't have a range finder or even tree stands. scent free stuff doesn't work 100 percent and never will I don't think. and people are still killing deer in blue jeans and a flannel shirt. imo all of your statements are irrelevant.
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#3640828 - 04/09/14 10:41 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: deerhunter10]
JandSCattleCo
8 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 1065
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

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 Originally Posted By: deerhunter10
 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


lol some of those things you mentioned have hurt more hunters then helped and the number one thing on that list that have hurt more then help for the most part is trail cameras. granted a lot of rifles that can shoot at 500 yards. that doesn't mean the shooter can. youd be surpised how many people don't have a range finder or even tree stands. scent free stuff doesn't work 100 percent and never will I don't think. and people are still killing deer in blue jeans and a flannel shirt. imo all of your statements are irrelevant.


Well that's your OPINION. As I said earlier, just because you DONT use it doesn't mean you can't. I can't help if you can't use your rifle to its fullest range potential, don't use a range finder, etc.

Hunters still have the OPTION to use these tools.
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#3640836 - 04/09/14 11:08 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3372
Loc: maury county tn

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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: deerhunter10
 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?


lol some of those things you mentioned have hurt more hunters then helped and the number one thing on that list that have hurt more then help for the most part is trail cameras. granted a lot of rifles that can shoot at 500 yards. that doesn't mean the shooter can. youd be surpised how many people don't have a range finder or even tree stands. scent free stuff doesn't work 100 percent and never will I don't think. and people are still killing deer in blue jeans and a flannel shirt. imo all of your statements are irrelevant.


Well that's your OPINION. As I said earlier, just because you DONT use it doesn't mean you can't. I can't help if you can't use your rifle to its fullest range potential, don't use a range finder, etc.

Hunters still have the OPTION to use these tools.


so what would you consider fair chase then? recurve moccasins and a stone as a broad head? Ive never heard this argument just wondering. im not trying to be sarcastic at all I really am curious.
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#3640888 - 04/10/14 05:31 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: deerhunter10]
JandSCattleCo
8 Point


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Heck if I know. This why I was agreeing with BSK. Where is the line of "fair" drawn?
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#3640974 - 04/10/14 07:54 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BHC]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: BHC
However I do agree high fences are not ethical in many situations however on a 20-30,000 acres ranch.. I don't really see a problem with it... I still probably wouldn't do it, just not my thing... It's also a big difference between places that raise deer, and places with 100% wild herds...

I'm glad p&y doesn't support it tho..
However I don't support all of p&y's rules...


I agree with P&Y and B&C not accepting entries from high-fences. Although I think very large high-fences are very much "fair chase," I think it is a heck of a lot easier and clearer to just say "no high-fenced deer" than to try and decide where "fair chase" begins inside larger high-fences.
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#3640998 - 04/10/14 08:21 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
W.Seay
14 Point


Registered: 01/17/06
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.


X2!
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#3644640 - 04/14/14 05:20 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: W.Seay]
TX300mag
Pea Picker
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I'm glad the rules are what they are-no subjectivity. There are too many factors even if you don't take size into consideration.

There are high fenced places in Texas where you could be dropped off with a backpack full of food and still starve to death before you ever found a fence. That's not the same as a five acre enclosure.
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#3644734 - 04/14/14 06:29 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: JandSCattleCo]
Deer Assassin
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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
Heck if I know. This why I was agreeing with BSK. Where is the line of "fair" drawn?



i agree what is the definition

bow hunter use range finders all the time especially out west like on mule deer hunts

what is fair and who decides?

i have had several times in the past non hunters (not anti) say i dont hunt fair with a high powered rifle great optics

the deer dont have a chance sad thing is unless something happens the deer dont have a chance
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#3644735 - 04/14/14 06:30 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Deer Assassin]
Deer Assassin
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ozonics \:D
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#3645120 - 04/14/14 11:12 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Deer Assassin]
deerhunter10
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 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
ozonics \:D


lol no comment but combine that with scent blocker and dead down wind aint nothing gunna smell you haha
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#3652223 - 04/22/14 09:59 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
AT Hiker
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Registered: 07/03/11
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 Originally Posted By: BSK


Personally, I have no interest in hunting inside of a fenced property, no matter how large the acreage enclosed. But thinking some of these large high-fences don't provide a perfectly "fair chase" environment is foolishness.


Foolishness uh? I assume you do some work for high fence ranchers and you don't want to rub them the wrong way.

So you think the stakes are even for a free range deer versus a high fence deer? Not sure how that logic works, that high fence deer (regardless the size of the area) is more protected than the free range deer. Not to mention it is a lot easier to know what is in that high fence operation versus the other. Its like blind luck versus higher odds and a high fence has higher odds...therefore I just can't see the fair chase in it.


Fair chase needs a true definition. If free range is not in that definition then yes, some of those large high fence operations can offer "fair chase" and I completely agree with you. IMO fair chase and free range are connected.
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#3652342 - 04/22/14 11:46 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: AT Hiker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
 Originally Posted By: BSK


Personally, I have no interest in hunting inside of a fenced property, no matter how large the acreage enclosed. But thinking some of these large high-fences don't provide a perfectly "fair chase" environment is foolishness.


Foolishness uh? I assume you do some work for high fence ranchers and you don't want to rub them the wrong way.

So you think the stakes are even for a free range deer versus a high fence deer? Not sure how that logic works, that high fence deer (regardless the size of the area) is more protected than the free range deer. Not to mention it is a lot easier to know what is in that high fence operation versus the other. Its like blind luck versus higher odds and a high fence has higher odds...therefore I just can't see the fair chase in it.


Obviously, you don't know me well, and you've never been inside a large high fence. First, I don't care what my clients think of my views. If I did care, I wouldn't so freely express them. If they don't like my views, then don't hire me. Second, inside thousands and thousands of acres high-fenced, many deer have no idea they are contained. Their movements are not being constrained. I've worked inside high-fenced properties in TX that are so large, the majority of the deer inside the fence have never seen the fence. If a deer is never constrained by a fence, how can the presence of the fence effect their behavior?

Again, I've seen high-fenced properties large enough that the hunting is no different inside the fence than outside with the same level of hunter density and harvest control. THAT is the difference inside many high-fences--very tightly controlled hunter density and harvest control--not constraint of the animal. That said, personally, I have no interest in hunting inside a high-fence, no matter the size. It just doesn't feel right to me personally.


 Quote:
Fair chase needs a true definition. If free range is not in that definition then yes, some of those large high fence operations can offer "fair chase."


Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT in favor of changing the legal definition of fair chase. I have absolutely no problem with defining fair chase as requiring free range. In fact, I agree with that. I'm just saying that in reality, some high-fenced areas will produce a fair-chase experience.
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#3652467 - 04/22/14 02:08 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
AT Hiker
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I have been in a high fence in New Mexico, never hunted it, just had an opportunity to visit while driving through. The area had some of the largest elk I have ever seen, I can assure you those elk likely had no idea they were in a fence (they were not a migratory herd so that helped). But those elk are in a controlled environment, just like a high fence whitetail venture.

That is my point, as Im sure a large high fence ranch has the same issues we "free rangers" have (nocturnal, etc) but those animals are in a controlled environment. That has its pro's and con's for sure, but to say it is fair chase to me is far from the reality. I will agree and say its as close to reality as you can get, but nothing natural about it at the end of the day.

No I dont know you at all, I didnt mean to offend you either if I came across that way.
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#3652905 - 04/22/14 09:35 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: AT Hiker]
TX300mag
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I've hunted some fair chase (by definition) that were anything but challenging. Peninsulas surrounded by water and woods bordered by residential neighborhoods come to mind.
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#3653076 - 04/23/14 07:45 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: TX300mag]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: TX300mag
I've hunted some fair chase (by definition) that were anything but challenging.


And that's it once a fenced property gets above a certain size. The lower challenge is not due to the animals being constrained behind a fence. The lower challenge is the unnaturally low hunting and harvest pressure. And I've certainly seen free-range properties that fall into that category--where hunter densities are so low, and harvest pressure so controlled (no bucks harvested younger than full maturity) that many older bucks wander around in daylight with near impunity, displaying little fear of Man. Is hunting in that environment anything like what most hunters face? Absolutely not.
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#3653147 - 04/23/14 09:20 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
TX300mag
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I support P&Y (B&C as well) in their rules. I'm generally opposed to high fences, but favor property rights of owners (it gets really conflicting in situations when you fence someone else IN).

I guess I'm not a fan of blanket ABSOLUTE statements that hunting outside a fence is ALWAYS more challenging than hunting inside one. I think broad generalizations are hurtful to both sides of the issue.
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#3653213 - 04/23/14 10:02 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: TX300mag]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
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I believe that even though I high fence area may be 10,000 acres, and the deer inside do not know they are fenced, it still isn't "fair-chase" in my book. That is because the owners control what is killed and who hunts, as well as can manipulate the genetics and nutrition inside that fence.

I also believe that the big time hunting operations that you go to up in the mid-west that say they are "100% fair-chase, no high fence" are not fair chase in my opinion just because they can control so much on who hunts it and what is killed off of it.

To me fair-chase is public land, or the small farms that a single buck may range onto 5-6 or more other peoples property. And also they turn almost nocturnal until the rut comes in. This is fair chase. What most everyday hunters deal with.

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#3653571 - 04/23/14 06:54 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: woodsman87]
jlmustain
6 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
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Every club has a right to its own rules.

I appreciate a trophy, but I really enjoy the feeling of having my family eat something I harvested. If someone eats what they harvest--whether from private, public, or high-fence land--I don't give a flipping rip about it. If someone doesn't want to eat meat off of high-fenced land, perhaps that same person should re-think any grocery story meat. High-fences look like wide open plains compared to those confined spaces.

I don't want trophies so badly that I'd be willing to pay those kinds of prices, but I don't have the time that some people do to get out, scout, and chase one huge deer, in particular. In my experience, more often than not, there exists a relatively abundant neglect of family and responsibility in order to hunt like some people do.

For the guy who loves hunting and the amazing harvest feeling, but maybe only has one or two days per season, total, to go, I value his commitment to his family and his responsibilities far more than I value the meat-heads who literally leave house and home for a significant portion of the season over these four-legged bone-heads.

I also value the person who's willing to pay to get his harvest far more than I value the poachers.

All this to say, it's my opinion that there are FAR worse, far less-ethical things than legal high-fence hunting.
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#3653661 - 04/23/14 08:37 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: jlmustain]
AT Hiker
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Registered: 07/03/11
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Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: jlmustain

In my experience, more often than not, there exists a relatively abundant neglect of family and responsibility in order to hunt like some people do.


I understand exactly what you are saying, but you would probably label me as such, though trophy hunting is not issue...I just love hunting and being outside. However, my priorities are in order and my family is fully aware of my addiction and most of them share it with me.

I do think some folks go over board with the trophy thing and their family and work suffer from it. I also think they miss the main point of hunting.

I dont have an issue with someone hunting a high fence either, but by no means is it fair chase. Thats like going to a sorority party to pick up ladies...actually thats more like baiting! ;\)
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#3653823 - 04/24/14 01:23 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: jlmustain]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
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I am one of those people who your are taking about jlmustain. I hunt a ton and spend a ton of time in the woods year round. But I'm not married nor do I have kids. And girl friends don't have as much way in the matter compared to a wife. Not saying I don't give up some days for her. But not having a wife or kids and a job with a decently open schedule and vaction set around dates for hunting season I get to spend a great amount of time in a tree stand a a great amount of time at targeting nature deer. And its a full time job I.don't care what anyone says. I am beyond blessed to be able to do what I love pretty much year round. But I can promise you there is no neclect of responsibility or my family and friends. Worked very hard to be where I am so far and the cards have fell in place. Now when I get married or have kids sure it'll change a little but I still see my drive always there just maybe not as much time. Hunt a high fence if you want to I don't care. Pay out the butt for it I hope you kill a giant. I think you'd liable me as a over bored on it but its about all I do and fish golf a touch. But I can garuntee my priorities are in order. And my work nor family life suffers.


Edited by deerhunter10 (04/24/14 01:26 AM)
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#3655435 - 04/25/14 06:02 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Poser]
Monty
6 Point


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Good for P&Y! Here's a link about high-fence, game farming issues from the perspective of our neighbors North of the border.
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#3655859 - 04/26/14 01:47 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: Monty]
landman
8 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2423
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Really who cares what they think?(P&Y)
I don't care about Net Scores...
Most of you on the Band Wagon may not know at one time your 80% let off bow
wasn't allowed
Is a 125" net TN buck really better than a 124" net TN buck?
Genetics don't come into play in most high fence tracts, manager better deer? Sure, Keep neighbors from shooting smaller bucks? Sure

Comments about well managed non fenced tracts that have TV hunts on them are "canned hunts"???? How are you managing genetics on that place???

I've been blessed to be on Great places in my career and even hunt some,
But sounds like I just been taking the easy way and really been a Canned Hunt Hunter..........



Edited by landman (04/26/14 01:52 PM)
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#3656445 - 04/27/14 01:58 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: landman]
AT Hiker
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Registered: 07/03/11
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Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: landman
Really who cares what they think?(P&Y)
I don't care about Net Scores...
Most of you on the Band Wagon may not know at one time your 80% let off bow
wasn't allowed
Is a 125" net TN buck really better than a 124" net TN buck?
Genetics don't come into play in most high fence tracts, manager better deer? Sure, Keep neighbors from shooting smaller bucks? Sure

Comments about well managed non fenced tracts that have TV hunts on them are "canned hunts"???? How are you managing genetics on that place???

I've been blessed to be on Great places in my career and even hunt some,
But sounds like I just been taking the easy way and really been a Canned Hunt Hunter..........



I wouldn't say canned hunt by any means. But a large trac of land with controlled pressure is by far an advantage of smaller heavily hunted places.

Another way to look at it is this; what about those limited quota tags out West? Are they canned? They are all public land, DIY hunts but some places only have 100 hunters hunting on a couple hundred thousand acres. Hunters apply for these mainly for a "trophy" animal that will make the books. I hope to draw some in the near future, but I am not going to say Im an excellent hunter if I kill a 180" mule deer or 90" antelope...I will admit that I had an excellent place to hunt and Im very fortunate.

I think a lot of people have a issue with someone claiming they are a "pro" hunter because they kill "big" deer and never give credit to the land they are hunting. I am lucky to be invited to hunt a 600 acre trac of land in the middle of Clarksville a couple times a year. I have never killed anything off it but I have had many opportunities to shoot good deer, deer bigger than anything I could kill on the other places I hunt. But this place has a realistic chance of killing a 140" and bigger deer, so Im hoping luck will prevail for me soon and when I do kill one I will admit that my skill level had very little to do with it.
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#3658523 - 04/29/14 03:21 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: landman]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: landman
Comments about well managed non fenced tracts that have TV hunts on them are "canned hunts"????


I'm never going to call a free-range situation a "canned hunt," but I sure have seen some non-fenced large leases where killing a mature buck is easier than on most high-fenced properties I've worked in. When you have hunter densities of 1 hunter per 1,000 acres, and no bucks are killed until full maturity, those bucks are the easiest mature bucks to kill I've ever encountered. Most show little fear of Man, even less than those I've encountered in high-fences (where hunting pressure is higher and management bucks begin to be killed at 3 1/2).
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#3658611 - 04/29/14 05:12 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41786
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: landman
Comments about well managed non fenced tracts that have TV hunts on them are "canned hunts"????


I'm never going to call a free-range situation a "canned hunt," but I sure have seen some non-fenced large leases where killing a mature buck is easier than on most high-fenced properties I've worked in. When you have hunter densities of 1 hunter per 1,000 acres, and no bucks are killed until full maturity, those bucks are the easiest mature bucks to kill I've ever encountered. Most show little fear of Man, even less than those I've encountered in high-fences (where hunting pressure is higher and management bucks begin to be killed at 3 1/2).


I love it when I hear the feeder go off and suddenly the sendero is full of deer and the hunter "rattles" one in.
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#3666856 - 05/09/14 09:05 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: bowriter]
flounder
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spreading cwd around

Between 1996 and 2002, chronic wasting disease was diagnosed in 39 herds of farmed elk in Saskatchewan in a single epidemic. All of these herds were depopulated as part of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency’s (CFIA) disease eradication program. Animals, primarily over 12 mo of age, were tested for the presence CWD prions following euthanasia. Twenty-one of the herds were linked through movements of live animals with latent CWD from a single infected source herd in Saskatchewan, 17 through movements of animals from 7 of the secondarily infected herds.

***The source herd is believed to have become infected via importation of animals from a game farm in South Dakota where CWD was subsequently diagnosed (7,4). A wide range in herd prevalence of CWD at the time of herd depopulation of these herds was observed. Within-herd transmission was observed on some farms, while the disease remained confined to the introduced animals on other farms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2081988/

spreading cwd around...tss

Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) outbreaks and surveillance program in the Republic of Korea Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) outbreaks and surveillance program in the Republic of Korea

Hyun-Joo Sohn, Yoon-Hee Lee, Min-jeong Kim, Eun-Im Yun, Hyo-Jin Kim, Won-Yong Lee, Dong-Seob Tark, In- Soo Cho, Foreign Animal Disease Research Division, National Veterinary Research and Quarantine Service, Republic of Korea

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) has been recognized as an important prion disease in native North America deer and Rocky mountain elks. The disease is a unique member of the transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs), which naturally affects only a few species. CWD had been limited to USA and Canada until 2000.

On 28 December 2000, information from the Canadian government showed that a total of 95 elk had been exported from farms with CWD to Korea.

These consisted of 23 elk in 1994 originating from the so-called “source farm” in Canada, and 72 elk in 1997, which had been held in pre export quarantine at the “source farm”.

Based on export information of CWD suspected elk from Canada to Korea, CWD surveillance program was initiated by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry (MAF) in 2001.

All elks imported in 1997 were traced back, however elks imported in 1994 were impossible to identify.

CWD control measures included stamping out of all animals in the affected farm, and thorough cleaning and disinfection of the premises.

In addition, nationwide clinical surveillance of Korean native cervids, and improved measures to ensure reporting of CWD suspect cases were implemented.

*Total of 9 elks were found to be affected. CWD was designated as a notifiable disease under the Act for Prevention of Livestock Epidemics in 2002.

*Additional CWD cases - 12 elks and 2 elks - were diagnosed in 2004 and 2005.

*Since February of 2005, when slaughtered elks were found to be positive, all slaughtered cervid for human consumption at abattoirs were designated as target of the CWD surveillance program.

Currently, CWD laboratory testing is only conducted by National Reference Laboratory on CWD, which is the Foreign Animal Disease Division (FADD) of National Veterinary Research and Quarantine Service (NVRQS).

*In July 2010, one out of 3 elks from Farm 1 which were slaughtered for the human consumption was confirmed as positive.

*Consequently, all cervid – 54 elks, 41 Sika deer and 5 Albino deer – were culled and one elk was found to be positive.

Epidemiological investigations were conducted by Veterinary Epidemiology Division (VED) of NVRQS in collaboration with provincial veterinary services.

*Epidemiologically related farms were found as 3 farms and all cervid at these farms were culled and subjected to CWD diagnosis.

*Three elks and 5 crossbreeds (Red deer and Sika deer) were confirmed as positive at farm 2.

All cervids at Farm 3 and Farm 4 – 15 elks and 47 elks – were culled and confirmed as negative.

Further epidemiological investigations showed that these CWD outbreaks were linked to the importation of elks from Canada in 1994 based on circumstantial evidences.

*In December 2010, one elk was confirmed as positive at Farm 5.

*Consequently, all cervid – 3 elks, 11 Manchurian Sika deer and 20 Sika deer – were culled and one Manchurian Sika deer and seven Sika deer were found to be positive.

This is the first report of CWD in these sub-species of deer.

*Epidemiological investigations found that the owner of the Farm 2 in CWD outbreaks in July 2010 had co-owned the Farm 5.

*In addition, it was newly revealed that one positive elk was introduced from Farm 6 of Jinju-si Gyeongsang Namdo.

All cervid – 19 elks, 15 crossbreed (species unknown) and 64 Sika deer – of Farm 6 were culled, but all confirmed as negative.

: Corresponding author: Dr. Hyun-Joo Sohn (+82-31-467-1867, E-mail: shonhj@korea.kr) 2011 Pre-congress Workshop: TSEs in animals and their environment 5

http://www.prion2011.ca/files/2011TSEBookletV6Final.pdf

http://www.prion2011.ca/files/PRION_2011_-_Posters_(May_5-11).pdf

http://usdavskorea.blogspot.com/

http://chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2012/06/natural-cases-of-cwd-in-eight-sika-deer.html

Friday, May 13, 2011

Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) outbreaks and surveillance program in the Republic of Korea

http://chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2011/05/chronic-wasting-disease-cwd-outbreaks.html


Singeltary submission ;

Program Standards: Chronic Wasting Disease Herd Certification Program and Interstate Movement of Farmed or Captive Deer, Elk, and Moose

DOCUMENT ID: APHIS-2006-0118-0411

***Singeltary submission

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=APHIS-2006-0118-0411

http://chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2014/03/docket-no-00-108-10-chronic-wasting.html

Friday, December 14, 2012

DEFRA U.K. What is the risk of Chronic Wasting Disease CWD being introduced into Great Britain? A Qualitative Risk Assessment October 2012

snip...

In the USA, under the Food and Drug Administration’s BSE Feed Regulation (21 CFR 589.2000) most material (exceptions include milk, tallow, and gelatin) from deer and elk is prohibited for use in feed for ruminant animals. With regards to feed for non-ruminant animals, under FDA law, CWD positive deer may not be used for any animal feed or feed ingredients. For elk and deer considered at high risk for CWD, the FDA recommends that these animals do not enter the animal feed system. However, this recommendation is guidance and not a requirement by law.

Animals considered at high risk for CWD include:

1) animals from areas declared to be endemic for CWD and/or to be CWD eradication zones and

2) deer and elk that at some time during the 60-month period prior to slaughter were in a captive herd that contained a CWD-positive animal.

Therefore, in the USA, materials from cervids other than CWD positive animals may be used in animal feed and feed ingredients for non-ruminants.

The amount of animal PAP that is of deer and/or elk origin imported from the USA to GB can not be determined, however, as it is not specified in TRACES. It may constitute a small percentage of the 8412 kilos of non-fish origin processed animal proteins that were imported from US into GB in 2011.

Overall, therefore, it is considered there is a __greater than negligible risk___ that (nonruminant) animal feed and pet food containing deer and/or elk protein is imported into GB.

There is uncertainty associated with this estimate given the lack of data on the amount of deer and/or elk protein possibly being imported in these products.

snip...

36% in 2007 (Almberg et al., 2011). In such areas, population declines of deer of up to 30 to 50% have been observed (Almberg et al., 2011). In areas of Colorado, the prevalence can be as high as 30% (EFSA, 2011).

The clinical signs of CWD in affected adults are weight loss and behavioural changes that can span weeks or months (Williams, 2005). In addition, signs might include excessive salivation, behavioural alterations including a fixed stare and changes in interaction with other animals in the herd, and an altered stance (Williams, 2005). These signs are indistinguishable from cervids experimentally infected with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE).

Given this, if CWD was to be introduced into countries with BSE such as GB, for example, infected deer populations would need to be tested to differentiate if they were infected with CWD or BSE to minimise the risk of BSE entering the human food-chain via affected venison.

snip...

The rate of transmission of CWD has been reported to be as high as 30% and can approach 100% among captive animals in endemic areas (Safar et al., 2008).

snip...

In summary, in endemic areas, there is a medium probability that the soil and surrounding environment is contaminated with CWD prions and in a bioavailable form. In rural areas where CWD has not been reported and deer are present, there is a greater than negligible risk the soil is contaminated with CWD prion.

snip...

In summary, given the volume of tourists, hunters and servicemen moving between GB and North America, the probability of at least one person travelling to/from a CWD affected area and, in doing so, contaminating their clothing, footwear and/or equipment prior to arriving in GB is greater than negligible. For deer hunters, specifically, the risk is likely to be greater given the increased contact with deer and their environment. However, there is significant uncertainty associated with these estimates.

snip...

Therefore, it is considered that farmed and park deer may have a higher probability of exposure to CWD transferred to the environment than wild deer given the restricted habitat range and higher frequency of contact with tourists and returning GB residents.

snip...

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animal-diseases/files/qra_chronic-wasting-disease-121029.pdf



kind regards,
terry

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#3669395 - 05/13/14 02:33 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: landman]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27498
Loc: TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: landman
Really who cares what they think?(P&Y)
I don't care about Net Scores...
Most of you on the Band Wagon may not know at one time your 80% let off bow
wasn't allowed
Is a 125" net TN buck really better than a 124" net TN buck?
Genetics don't come into play in most high fence tracts, manager better deer? Sure, Keep neighbors from shooting smaller bucks? Sure

Comments about well managed non fenced tracts that have TV hunts on them are "canned hunts"???? How are you managing genetics on that place???

I've been blessed to be on Great places in my career and even hunt some,
But sounds like I just been taking the easy way and really been a Canned Hunt Hunter..........


There you have it and Im with you Landman!
Way too many worry way too much about things out of their control, or things that matter not in their real world!! Just hunt and be happy to do so in the best places your blessed to do so!!! I have no desire to hunt in a fence but for those who like that scenario, roll on!

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#3679555 - 05/29/14 12:20 AM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: bowriter]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9509
Loc: Memphis

Offline
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
I don't think I need an organization to tell me what is ethical and what isn't. The really big rub is when you start proclaiming records and getting your name in the book. Then you need a rule book.


_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

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#3685793 - 06/07/14 09:28 PM Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting [Re: RUGER]
xtremedeerman
4 Point


Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 401
Loc: tennessee

Offline
Great!
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