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#3625042 - 03/24/14 05:25 PM Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico
tellico4x4
6 Point


Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 912
Loc: Killen, AL

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Have hunted elk once in NM & have applied for years for a Ibex and Oryx tag. This is the second time in 3 years that New Mexico has said that they don't want NR business, especially DIY Non-resident hunters...only 6% of all tags now go to NR's that do not use guides. Oh yeah, for Ibex & Oryx you have to front the the entire tag fee (approx $2,000 each) when submitting application. Of course they keep that money for months before refunding it. Not that it'll matter to them, but they have received the last of my $$.

New Mexico Department of Game and Fish
Media contact: Rachel Shockley, (505) 476-8071
Public contact: (888) 248-6866
Rachel.shockley@state.nm.us
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, MARCH 24, 2014:
Court ruling gives New Mexico resident hunters better odds in drawings for bighorn sheep, oryx and ibex
ALBUQUERQUE – New Mexico resident hunters scored a big victory Monday with a U.S. District Court ruling that allows the Department of Game and Fish to reinstate quotas that give state residents a big advantage over nonresidents when applying for bighorn sheep, oryx and ibex hunting licenses.
“This is an important decision and a huge win for New Mexico hunters,” said Paul Kienzle, newly elected chairman of the State Game Commission. “It’s been a long fight, but New Mexicans now have a good shot at those quality hunts, as intended by the governor and the state legislature.”
Monday’s ruling by Chief U.S. District Judge Christina Armijo vacated a 1977 injunction that prohibited the Department from applying preferential quotas that benefited state residents in the drawings for bighorn sheep, oryx and ibex licenses. Because of that injunction, nonresident hunters enjoyed equal odds with residents in the annual drawings.
Beginning with this year’s draw, resident hunters who apply for bighorn sheep, oryx and ibex licenses will enjoy the same odds as those who applied for any other big-game species. Currently, state residents receive 84 percent of all public licenses issued through drawings. Nonresidents receive 6 percent and hunters using outfitters – residents and nonresidents – qualify for 10 percent of public licenses. The application deadline for 2014-15 big-game licenses was March 19.
“The injunction has prevented the Department from complying with state law to the detriment of New Mexico residents and in opposition to the will of the governor and the legislature,” Department Legal Counsel Allison Marks said. “Judge Armijo unequivocally found New Mexico’s statutory quota does not violate federal law. The judge’s quick decision affords the Department the opportunity to make immediate changes to the draw system in order to comply with state law.”
Several conservation organizations supported the Department’s motion to vacate the injunction. They included United Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, the New Mexico Chapter of the Wild Sheep Foundation, the New Mexico Wildlife Federation and the Southern New Mexico Chapter of Safari Club International.
The injunction applied only to bighorn sheep, oryx and ibex because at the time of the legal challenge, they were the only species of big game in New Mexico for which the State Game Commission provided an in-state preference for license allocation. The injunction was issued in connection with a 1974 lawsuit by David B. Terk, a Texas resident and hunter. Terk challenged New Mexico’s license allocation system that gave him a lower chance of drawing a license than state residents would enjoy.




Edited by tellico4x4 (03/24/14 05:26 PM)
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#3625064 - 03/24/14 05:43 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: tellico4x4]
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Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

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NM is a highly sought after by non residents. If I were a resident, I'd definitely expect some priority over Non residents in the drawing system. That being said, forcing the nonresidents hand into going through outfitters is bullcrap. If they are concerned about meeting trophy requirements etc (like Alaska does with certain species), they could at least offer the option of having a resident liaison instead of a guide (also like AK does). This appears to be a way to drive money to outfitters and the outfitters in turn, spend money to be certified with the state. Fact of the matter is, there are a number of hunters who simply cannot afford the cost of a outfitter on a hunt like this. You draw one of those tags, you're gonna spend $3,000 or more pulling the hunt off in a DIY manner. While that is expensive, it is attainable for many hunters for the "hunt of a lifetime." However, $6,500+, $10,000, even up to $50,000 is certainly not attainable to most hunters.

Honestly, for the budget you're talking (2-3k), you might just consider going to New Zealand. Cost of airfare and a rental car is all you'd have in it to do a DIY hunt for any game species you wish.
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#3625591 - 03/25/14 09:10 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Poser]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 848
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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If you havent had the chance to hunt DIY public land Western style you better start now. Some WY folks are trying to cut NR tags drastically and MT has already increased the tag cost drastically.
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#3625607 - 03/25/14 09:25 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
If you havent had the chance to hunt DIY public land Western style you better start now. Some WY folks are trying to cut NR tags drastically and MT has already increased the tag cost drastically.



AZ went up this year, too.
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#3625622 - 03/25/14 09:44 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
tellico4x4
6 Point


Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 912
Loc: Killen, AL

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 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
If you havent had the chance to hunt DIY public land Western style you better start now.


x2

Our first DIY hunt was for mule deer & elk in Craig, CO back in 1979. Drop camp on private land was $150.00 per person (tent, pots, pans, cots, etc...)pretty much everything but sleeping bag & food. That also included game recovery! Across the counter combination licenses were $250.00 and covered deer, elk & bear. Four of us kicked in $100 ea to cover travel expenses & food. For $500 ea, we stayed 7 days and killed 4 bucks & 1 bull!Just about every town we drove thru in Colorado had banners hanging across streets welcoming NR hunters. Ah, the good ole days when gas was .45/gal and I was making $15K per year....

Have been fortunate enough to do 23 hunts in most of the western states, AK & many of the mid-west states since then. Some great, some good and some awful, but would not trade the experiences for anything. I have 3 grandsons now, that I worry about being able to enjoy similar hunts in their future, simply due to cost.

One thing that WY offers that none of the other western states do, is the opportunity to purchase preference point for youth at a reduced rate. From 12-16 yrs old, the points for elk, deer & antelope are only $10 ea. I always buy them for the grandsons when I buy mine.

DIY western hunts are still doable without it costing a fortune, but it does take a lot more planning & budgeting now days.
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#3625645 - 03/25/14 10:04 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: tellico4x4]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

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Pretty cool, Tellico. In today's value, that $150 hunt (a dollar was worth about 3x as much as it is today) would be $450. The idea of getting all that service for $450 is insane! More like $4,500....
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#3625940 - 03/25/14 03:53 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Poser]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5098
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...

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A good friend of mine drew a very hard to get mule deer tag in NM this year. Years of applying. That's his thing. He has 170"+ whitetails on his ranch and don't even hunt them. He's only killed one buck at home in the last 15 years and it was a 174" mzl kill. Killing 140" deer is a first day thing. His thing is elk and mule deer. He applies in several states for the hard to get units. I remember a sheep tag he got that was something like 29 years, although I think he may have bought points for many of them and then applied a year he was ready. I'm not real sure how all that works.
He also harvested an Oryx a few weeks ago down there. It was a thing he had wanted to do for many years and finally was able to do so. I don't think he killed a muley though.


Edited by AlabamaSwamper (03/25/14 04:02 PM)
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#3626070 - 03/25/14 06:46 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
Hunt 365
4 Point


Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 322
Loc: Jackson, Tennessee

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Sorry, but it's their tax$. Would suck if NR's came in and got the 5 elk tags we have. Unpopular, I know, but if they were smart, they would price NR tags/lotteries similar to Colorado and make it possible, but still fund the whole thing. But apparently, they don't have it figured out as well
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#3626075 - 03/25/14 06:48 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Hunt 365]
Hunt 365
4 Point


Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 322
Loc: Jackson, Tennessee

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Guys, I suggest Indian reservations. Everyone from the outside is a non-resident, and you can get some great hunting! Have had some good times on them
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#3626099 - 03/25/14 07:20 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Hunt 365]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Hunt 365
Guys, I suggest Indian reservations. Everyone from the outside is a non-resident, and you can get some great hunting! Have had some good times on them


What kind of $ are we talking?
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It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

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#3626107 - 03/25/14 07:29 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Poser]
UPSman
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point


Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 7424
Loc: Powell Tn

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 Originally Posted By: Poser
 Originally Posted By: Hunt 365
Guys, I suggest Indian reservations. Everyone from the outside is a non-resident, and you can get some great hunting! Have had some good times on them


What kind of $ are we talking?


Stupid money.......
http://www.jicarillahunt.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=118253

http://innofthemountaingods.com/activities/big-game-hunts/


I'd bet an elk hunt on the White Mountain Apache Res would be well over $20k by now
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#3626189 - 03/25/14 08:39 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: UPSman]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: UPSman
 Originally Posted By: Poser
 Originally Posted By: Hunt 365
Guys, I suggest Indian reservations. Everyone from the outside is a non-resident, and you can get some great hunting! Have had some good times on them


What kind of $ are we talking?


Stupid money.......
http://www.jicarillahunt.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=118253

http://innofthemountaingods.com/activities/big-game-hunts/


I'd bet an elk hunt on the White Mountain Apache Res would be well over $20k by now



Ha! I like the "submit bid, $30,000 minimum" part.
Yeah.... Not a viable option.
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

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#3626208 - 03/25/14 08:57 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Poser]
UPSman
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point


Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 7424
Loc: Powell Tn

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Granted there are some cheaper hunts, but if you hunt big game on a reservation....you are gonna part with some serious cash.

Evidently there isn't enough money in Casinos ;\) on some of the reservations the same clients come back year after year and hunts are booked so far out now that they (Indian nations) have quit accepting new clients.
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#3626290 - 03/26/14 01:56 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: UPSman]
Hunt 365
4 Point


Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 322
Loc: Jackson, Tennessee

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Those are crazy, but is went on a coues deer and javelina hunt in AZ that was extremely reasonable. Those highest bidder ones are like Governor's tags. Good luck on the others though. A friend of mine went through a DIY outfitter in Colorado who had allotted tags.
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#3626492 - 03/26/14 08:55 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Hunt 365]
tellico4x4
6 Point


Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 912
Loc: Killen, AL

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I did look into deer hunting on a reservation in SD one time. Believe that it was the Red Bud Souix and was something like $500/day and that included guide, meals & lodging. I'd already missed the deadline dates for that year and never pursued it any further...
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#3627136 - 03/26/14 08:01 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Hunt 365]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 848
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Hunt 365
Sorry, but it's their tax$. Would suck if NR's came in and got the 5 elk tags we have. Unpopular, I know, but if they were smart, they would price NR tags/lotteries similar to Colorado and make it possible, but still fund the whole thing. But apparently, they don't have it figured out as well


Not so much, a lot of it is OUR tax dollars. Federal land (BLM, National Forest, etc) then you have sanctuaries like Yellowstone that harbor a lot of migrating animals.

Most of these states are hurting because of stingy residents, outfitter lobbying and mainly poor business management. It all boils down to the might $$. Mule deer have taken a beating and tags should be cut (for both residents and NR) but the agency does not want to loose revenue and residents dont want to do their part.
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#3632270 - 03/31/14 11:09 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
4onaside
12 Point


Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 5101
Loc: Jackson,Tn

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Even though I have 9 elk preference points in Colorado, which I will probably never use, I'm done with them. IMO they developed a screw NR's attitude several years ago, when they instituted the 80/20 deal, even though a NR pays about 10 times the license fee that a resident pays. I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with the NR needing much higher PPs to get drawn. I'm going goat hunting just north of Cheyenne in a lesser unit which has two things going for it. Its very cheap and it's on private property. I could really care less if I kill game out there. I do enjoy encountering goats obviously, but for me, its the western hunt experience that is most important.
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#3676991 - 05/24/14 12:25 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: 4onaside]
Sniper
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point


Registered: 03/09/99
Posts: 5670
Loc: East TN

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What would it cost, including all fees if you did get drawn for one these tags and used a guide? Just curious as compared to what it cost to go to Africa and shoot one.
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#3684739 - 06/05/14 09:49 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Sniper]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 848
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Sniper
What would it cost, including all fees if you did get drawn for one these tags and used a guide? Just curious as compared to what it cost to go to Africa and shoot one.


Broad question with broad answers. If you draw a WY moose tag it will cost you $1400 for the tag plus another $5k for the guide. Some units/states/animals I wouldnt hire a guide, some I would. If I drew a once in a lifetime tag I would likely hire a guide mainly because they likely live in the area and no where the game are. These once in a lifetime tags inlcude some elk areas and almost most sheep tags.

For the other species, if you have time and their is plenty of public access I would go DIY.

I personally have no desire for Africa at this point, too much to see and hunt here...maybe one day I will go to Africa.
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#3685302 - 06/06/14 10:09 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
tennecedar
Button


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 2
Loc: White County

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When it was hunters saving up for their once in a lifetime hunt there wasn't a whole lot of NR invasions into the western states come hunting season. That was when applications were hand written and mailed in. Hunts were selected and planned for years.

Today we have the age of clicking the mouse to copy and paste our info for multiple hunts in many states. Hundreds of TV hunters wanting to film the best/biggest game in all states. Hundreds more wanting to be the next big thing on the Outdoor channel....

It leaves the lowly working man who once dreamed of a western elk or mountain goat having to save for another ten years to afford it. If the laws don't change between now and then that is.

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#3691109 - 06/14/14 08:48 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: tennecedar]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 848
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: tennecedar

It leaves the lowly working man who once dreamed of a western elk or mountain goat having to save for another ten years to afford it. If the laws don't change between now and then that is.


I would love to moose and sheep hunt in the great USA, but the chances of me ever drawing a tag are slim to none. I do not have any points and with point creep it appears impossible to ever get the chance.
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#3691871 - 06/15/14 08:31 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5051
Loc: Mississippi

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Got my CO elk tag in the mail yesterday....

even CO is jacking up the prices... $600 just for the either sex elk tag this year \:\(

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#3692006 - 06/16/14 07:23 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: megalomaniac]
tickweed
10 Point


Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 4737
Loc: medon,Tn.

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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
Got my CO elk tag in the mail yesterday....

even CO is jacking up the prices... $600 just for the either sex elk tag this year \:\(
what was an either sex elk last yr? Around $580.00?


Edited by tickweed (06/16/14 07:24 AM)
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#3692063 - 06/16/14 09:19 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: tickweed]
Grill-n-man
4 Point


Registered: 01/10/13
Posts: 318
Loc: rhea county tn

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Yes i believe that residents should have a higher priority than non residents, after all it is their home. On the other hand, non residents should also have a decent chance of doing a once in lifetime thing without having to mortgage the house. There is more than likely a very simple solution to create a balance where all can be happy, but unfortunately with the commercialization of hunting as we know it today we will likely not see that. All it really boils down to is the most simple aspect of business, if you control the supply then you control the price. Now me I probably will not ever be able to afford one of these hunts but if I can one day it will not be at a place that doesn't want me there because I am believed to be lower than them. Instead I will pick a place that is just the opposite, after all I am more interested in the experience than the kill. And if you really want to change things like this then that would be another simple part of business, if you don't buy from those who control the supply they will eventually go broke. So keep your money at home and starve em cause I can garaantee residents do not put near the amount of money into the local economy as a nonresident does.
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#3692558 - 06/16/14 08:16 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Grill-n-man]
ChippewaPartners
10 Point


Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 3007
Loc: Pamelot, my farm near Catoosa

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I can live with most of the states but Wyoming still upsets me in keeping non-residents out of some premium mule deer units in the western end of the state where Federal public land, may i remind you, YOUR LAND and MINE, is near 100%.

I like to spend time in big country when I am hunting. I like being in big country but would rather hunt/camp than just camp.

Each to his own I guess. I am lucky to just have my health and friends and family to hunt with.
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#3692781 - 06/17/14 07:39 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: ChippewaPartners]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: ChippewaPartners
I can live with most of the states but Wyoming still upsets me in keeping non-residents out of some premium mule deer units in the western end of the state where Federal public land, may i remind you, YOUR LAND and MINE, is near 100%.

I like to spend time in big country when I am hunting. I like being in big country but would rather hunt/camp than just camp.

Each to his own I guess. I am lucky to just have my health and friends and family to hunt with.


Yeah, keeping NRs out of all those Wilderness Areas seems overkill to me. I spent some time in the Wind River Range back some years ago -would love to be able to hunt there.
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Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

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#3692828 - 06/17/14 09:08 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Poser]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 848
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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The WY NR law against Wilderness is pure BS. A hiker, fly fisherman, horseback rider, etc can go into those. You give a hunter a tag for that region and all of a sudden he needs a guide! Pure outfitter lobbying at its best, conservation is not based on that and it is a kick in the mouth to everyone.

So is landlocked public land IMO.
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#3692858 - 06/17/14 10:12 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
tellico4x4
6 Point


Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 912
Loc: Killen, AL

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[quote=AT Hiker

I would love to moose and sheep hunt in the great USA, but the chances of me ever drawing a tag are slim to none. I do not have any points and with point creep it appears impossible to ever get the chance. [/quote]

DIY Shiras Moose is actually possible in Idaho.
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#3692959 - 06/17/14 01:47 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: tellico4x4]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: tellico4x4
[quote=AT Hiker

I would love to moose and sheep hunt in the great USA, but the chances of me ever drawing a tag are slim to none. I do not have any points and with point creep it appears impossible to ever get the chance.


DIY Shiras Moose is actually possible in Idaho. [/quote]

Even if you drew a sheep tag, could you afford it? Most of those are thousands of dollars just for tag (assuming you can even draw it). I think I read that it may not be possible to do a DIY NR sheep hunt for any cheaper than ~$8,500 or so. Guided hunters are probably going to start closer to 20k and go upwards of 50k.


Edited by Poser (06/17/14 01:52 PM)
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It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

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#3692966 - 06/17/14 02:02 PM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
The WY NR law against Wilderness is pure BS. A hiker, fly fisherman, horseback rider, etc can go into those. You give a hunter a tag for that region and all of a sudden he needs a guide! Pure outfitter lobbying at its best, conservation is not based on that and it is a kick in the mouth to everyone.

So is landlocked public land IMO.


Back in 2002, I went climbing in the Wind River Range. We hiked deep into the backcountry, set up camp in the meadows below Cirque of the Towers and spent 5 days climbing absolutely stunning alpine routes:



-didn't need no stinking guide, much a less a permit, either. We just drove 40 miles of forest service roads, parked at a trailhead and disappeared into the mountains.
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

http://www.GoCarnivore.com

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#3693354 - 06/18/14 07:51 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: Poser]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 848
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

Offline
Beautiful picture Poser, Im headed to Yellowtone in Aug and hope to explore some areas while we are out there.
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#3693373 - 06/18/14 08:25 AM Re: Non-Residents Screwed Over Again in New Mexico [Re: AT Hiker]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12523
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
Beautiful picture Poser, Im headed to Yellowtone in Aug and hope to explore some areas while we are out there.


It can be real hot in the valley in August, though you can always drive up to Toullme Meadows which are at elevation and much cooler. In fact, a great summertime trail it to put in at the Meadows and hike down into Yosemite valley. 3-4 day trip with plenty of cold streams along the way. And do not leave a single scented item in your vehicle while in the valley. Make sure there isn't even a gum wrapper. Those bears will rip the door off of your car to get a forgotten stick of juicy fruit
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