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#3495088 - 12/10/13 09:15 PM Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration?
UTGrad
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I don't understand how a thinner diameter arrow increases penetration. If the broadhead is cutting the wound channel, why would a thin diameter be any better than a standard diameter? Wouldn't it be the broadhead design and momentum of the arrow vs arrow shaft diameter?
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#3495151 - 12/10/13 09:34 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: UTGrad]
Mr.Bro
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Registered: 08/02/09
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I think maybe its less drag.I do know for a fact.Six bucks over the last 8 or 9 years,some years i dont shoot one,all taken with Easton Axis arrow behind Muzzys and all have been complete pass throughs.
The most amazing was a quartering away shot.Entrance was in front of left hip.Arrow busted shoulder on right side and kept on going.Complete pass through.The long way.40 yards was as far as he made it.
Most of these were shot with a 60lb Mathews DXT,30 draw.Shooting 256 fps.
Im sold on small diameter arrows.
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#3495167 - 12/10/13 09:43 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Mr.Bro]
Hoss
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I think the advantage of small diameter versus large diameter is mostly theoretical on game. In a 3D target it makes a difference because the foam closes up behind entry point providing friction to the shaft as it enters. On game the weight, inertia and KE I think are bigger factors. Smaller shafts like MrBro's Axis are really good balance of weight/inertia/KE. It also helps when you can shoot lights out like MrBro.
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#3495193 - 12/10/13 09:59 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Hoss]
Mr.Bro
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 Originally Posted By: Hoss
I think the advantage of small diameter versus large diameter is mostly theoretical on game. In a 3D target it makes a difference because the foam closes up behind entry point providing friction to the shaft as it enters. On game the weight, inertia and KE I think are bigger factors. Smaller shafts like MrBro's Axis are really good balance of weight/inertia/KE. It also helps when you can shoot lights out like MrBro.


Thanks i needed a good laugh!!!!
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#3495255 - 12/10/13 11:07 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Mr.Bro]
krazykarl_13
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I would imagine the thin diameter would have less surface area for resistance and less drag. I am not sure that they would be small enough to make a huge difference though. Physics has been a few years for me haha.
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#3495313 - 12/11/13 04:34 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: krazykarl_13]
deerhunter10
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Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3444
Loc: maury county tn

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My guess would be less drag. But I never have heard of someone switching to a smaller diameter just for more penetration. I think your broad head has more to do with it then the diameter of the arrow.
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#3495647 - 12/11/13 09:27 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: deerhunter10]
Engine2c
4 Point


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I don't know if they actually allow more penetration, never given it much thought. Less surface are does kind of make sense though. I shoot easton axis fmj's. Everything I have shot has been a complete pass through with the exception of one. It was a quartering away shot where I struck the opposite shoulder and I believe that would stop most any arrow.
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#3495656 - 12/11/13 09:34 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: deerhunter10]
TNDeerGuy
12 Point


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 6140
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Looking at it from a physics standpoint there just has to be some difference. There definitely is a penetration difference when shooting at a target like a foam 3D target. Considering a hunting application and all things being equal, a thin diameter arrow will out penetrate a larger diameter arrow. Even though a broadhead is creating a cut channel for the arrow to pass thru, the shaft will still come in contact with tissue creating drag on the arrow, the larger arrow has more surface area so it has to have more drag, however I believe the amount of drag compared between the two will be very negligible. The type of surface of the arrow will have an effect as well, and may have a greater effect than the diameter itself—not all carbons are the same. A smaller diameter arrow also is less effected by atmospheric conditions than a larger arrow and that has been proven. I wish I had the time, money and equipment to find out exactly the difference between the two.
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#3496806 - 12/11/13 10:37 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: TNDeerGuy]
Hoss
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I agree there is a difference theoretically. In practical application the differenceis so miniscule as to be immeasurable. The wound channel is opened by the broadhead and the contact with the shaft would be minimal, then couple that with the lubricity of the tissues and body fluids the difference would be of no consequence. If you want to increase penetration then look other places for it. You can impact your penetration in much larger measure by doing other things. Once you are down to shaft diameter as a factor in optimizing your penetration you are pretty much there.
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#3497279 - 12/12/13 09:28 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Hoss]
DixieCrafter
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The theoretical concept of the smaller diameter shaft having greater penetration because of less frictional resistance along the shaft, following the broadhead inside the wound channel makes a lot of sense, and it's great marketing also! I have seen the ballistic gelatin tests and usually the Axis shafts does it deeper!

I've killed a bunch of critters with the Axis shaft since it came on the market several years ago! My APPLICATION with hunting with this heavier and smaller diameter hunting shaft has proven to me that it will out penetrate any other shaft I have hunted with! The Axis style shafts are some of the toughest on the market and as a bonus they really buck the wind great.

The next time you kill a deer try cutting the front shoulder off with the leg and hide attached and hang it up in front of a safe backstop. Aim right at that shoulder blade with your broadhead and shaft combo and evaluate yoyur results. Then give the Axis shaft a try!
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#3497356 - 12/12/13 10:25 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Hoss]
Jake47
Spike


Registered: 07/30/13
Posts: 61
Loc: Brentwood

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Here is my "physics" take on it:

Beman ICS Hunter
400
8.4 GPR
0.293" dia
0.92 sq. in/in surface area

Easton Axis FMJ
400
10.2 GPR
.262" dia
0.82 sq. in/in surface area

Based upon these two arrows there are two things that pop out (assuming arrow speed is identical).

First, the FMJ has 11% less surface area than the ICS. Regardless of the material the arrows are shot through, the FMJ would have 11% less friction acting upon it to slow it down. However, I would tend to agree with Hoss that with the lubrication of the body fluids and fats in an animal, that this frictional number would be relatively small and would not likely slow the ICS enough to not get a pass through.

Second, the FMJ weighs 21.4% more than the ICS. This will lead to a 21.4% increase in kinetic energy, which we all know leads to better penetration. I would guess that this is the main reason for better penetration with a FMJ arrow.

However, if the two arrows being compared were the same weight then that would throw out the kinetic energy factor. That leaves only one thing that I can think of, shaft flexibility.

While a cylindrical object, such as an arrow shaft, usually gets stronger as the diameter increases, it is possible that the narrower shaft has a thicker sidewall dimension. If this is the case, the moment of inertia of the narrower shaft might be more than that of the thicker shaft. A larger moment of inertia means less deflection of the shaft when shot and upon impact.

A simple way to think about this is imagine trying to push a sharpened pencil from the eraser end through a taught piece of paper. Goes through pretty easy, right. Now take a piece of sharpened uncooked spaghetti and try and push it through the paper from the back end. I would imagine that spaghetti stick would bend quite a bit before penetrating the paper or breaking. While this might not be the best analogy, I think it at least provides an image for understanding how shaft flexibility may play a role in it.

I would like to note that I have shot ICS Hunters for 10+ years now. My bow is the same age as the arrows and is only shooting about 250 FPS. In all the deer I have shot with it, I can only remember 3 that didn't pass through. 1 I spined, 1 I buried it in his front shoulder (didn't find, but was shot by gun hunters on our farm 1 month later with the arrow still there), and 1 that I think buried in his offside shoulder but never found to confirm.

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#3497451 - 12/12/13 11:45 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Jake47]
UTGrad
14 Point


Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 9689
Loc: Franklin, TN

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[quote=Jake47]Here is my "physics" take on it:

Beman ICS Hunter
400
8.4 GPR
0.293" dia
0.92 sq. in/in surface area

Easton Axis FMJ
400
10.2 GPR
.262" dia
0.82 sq. in/in surface area

Based upon these two arrows there are two things that pop out (assuming arrow speed is identical).

First, the FMJ has 11% less surface area than the ICS. Regardless of the material the arrows are shot through, the FMJ would have 11% less friction acting upon it to slow it down. However, I would tend to agree with Hoss that with the lubrication of the body fluids and fats in an animal, that this frictional number would be relatively small and would not likely slow the ICS enough to not get a pass through.

Second, the FMJ weighs 21.4% more than the ICS. This will lead to a 21.4% increase in kinetic energy, which we all know leads to better penetration. I would guess that this is the main reason for better penetration with a FMJ arrow.

However, if the two arrows being compared were the same weight then that would throw out the kinetic energy factor. That leaves only one thing that I can think of, shaft flexibility.

While a cylindrical object, such as an arrow shaft, usually gets stronger as the diameter increases, it is possible that the narrower shaft has a thicker sidewall dimension. If this is the case, the moment of inertia of the narrower shaft might be more than that of the thicker shaft. A larger moment of inertia means less deflection of the shaft when shot and upon impact.

A simple way to think about this is imagine trying to push a sharpened pencil from the eraser end through a taught piece of paper. Goes through pretty easy, right. Now take a piece of sharpened uncooked spaghetti and try and push it through the paper from the back end. I would imagine that spaghetti stick would bend quite a bit before penetrating the paper or breaking. While this might not be the best analogy, I think it at least provides an image for understanding how shaft flexibility may play a role in it.

I would like to note that I have shot ICS Hunters for 10+ years now. My bow is the same age as the arrows and is only shooting about 250 FPS. In all the deer I have shot with it, I can only remember 3 that didn't pass through. 1 I spined, 1 I buried it in his front shoulder (didn't find, but was shot by gun hunters on our farm 1 month later with the arrow still there), and 1 that I think buried in his offside shoulder but never found to confirm. [/quote

Awesome thanks

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#3497572 - 12/12/13 01:16 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: UTGrad]
Jake47
Spike


Registered: 07/30/13
Posts: 61
Loc: Brentwood

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To investigate the Kinetic energy a little farther:

Beman ICS
8.4 gpi
100 gr broadhead
30" arrow

Total wt = 30*8.4+100=352gr

FMJ
10.2 gpi
100 gr broadhead
30" arrow

Total wt= 30*10.2+100=406 gr

Neither total weight accounts for fletching/nocks/inserts, etc. but will serve as a base point.

At 275 fps the Kinetic Energies are as follows:
Beman KE=59.12 ft*lbs
FMJ KE=68.19 ft*lbs

So at the same speed, the FMJ produces 15.3% more energy to bust through an animal. If the FMJ shaft is in fact stiffer, then less energy is lost in flexing. I think that the increased KE with the possibility of a stiffer shaft for the FMJ is the main reason for the better penetration.

If we look at it such that the KE is equal between the two arrows, the ICS would still be shooting 275 fps, while the FMJ would be shooting 256 fps. In this situation, the KE would equal 59.12 ft*lbs for each arrow. If arrow penetration was still witnessed to be better with the FMJ arrow, then I think I would be more inclined to say that the shaft is stiffer. Thus less energy is lost due to flexure of the shaft upon impact and more is available to punch through a deer, elk, target, whatever!

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#3497897 - 12/12/13 04:47 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Jake47]
UTGrad
14 Point


Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 9689
Loc: Franklin, TN

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I just don't buy the Easton Injexion craze. Why buy an arrow that limits broadhead selection in hopes for better penetration?
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#3497905 - 12/12/13 04:51 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: UTGrad]
knightrider
12 Point


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 6234
Loc: tn

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on thin whitetail bones how much more penetration do you need? thru a rib, thru the lungs, out the other rib, in the dirt
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#3497978 - 12/12/13 05:45 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: knightrider]
UTGrad
14 Point


Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 9689
Loc: Franklin, TN

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Gold Tip Prohunter, XT, Expedition Hunter has killed a lot of deer.
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#3498401 - 12/12/13 11:26 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: UTGrad]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3444
Loc: maury county tn

content Online
 Originally Posted By: UTGrad
I just don't buy the Easton Injexion craze. Why buy an arrow that limits broadhead selection in hopes for better penetration?


x2 they are coming out with more broad heads for them but it still turns me off for them.
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#3498404 - 12/12/13 11:53 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: deerhunter10]
Hoss
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 02/14/00
Posts: 1467
Loc: Hendersonville , TN

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Analysis Paralysis.
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#3498406 - 12/13/13 12:16 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Jake47]
Hoss
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 02/14/00
Posts: 1467
Loc: Hendersonville , TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Jake47
Here is my "physics" take on it:

Beman ICS Hunter
8.4 GPR
0.293" dia
0.92 sq. in/in surface area

Easton Axis FMJ
10.2 GPR
.262" dia
0.82 sq. in/in surface area

Based upon these two arrows there are two things that pop out (assuming arrow speed is identical).

First, the FMJ has 11% less surface area than the ICS. Regardless of the material the arrows are shot through, the FMJ would have 11% less friction acting upon it to slow it down. However, I would tend to agree with Hoss that with the lubrication of the body fluids and fats in an animal, that this frictional number would be relatively small and would not likely slow the ICS enough to not get a pass through.

Second, the FMJ weighs 21.4% more than the ICS. This will lead to a 21.4% increase in kinetic energy, which we all know leads to better penetration. I would guess that this is the main reason for better penetration with a FMJ arrow.

However, if the two arrows being compared were the same weight then that would throw out the kinetic energy factor. That leaves only one thing that I can think of, shaft flexibility.

While a cylindrical object, such as an arrow shaft, usually gets stronger as the diameter increases, it is possible that the narrower shaft has a thicker sidewall dimension. If this is the case, the moment of inertia of the narrower shaft might be more than that of the thicker shaft. A larger moment of inertia means less deflection of the shaft when shot and upon impact.

A simple way to think about this is imagine trying to push a sharpened pencil from the eraser end through a taught piece of paper. Goes through pretty easy, right. Now take a piece of sharpened uncooked spaghetti and try and push it through the paper from the back end. I would imagine that spaghetti stick would bend quite a bit before penetrating the paper or breaking. While this might not be the best analogy, I think it at least provides an image for understanding how shaft flexibility may play a role in it.

I would like to note that I have shot ICS Hunters for 10+ years now. My bow is the same age as the arrows and is only shooting about 250 FPS. In all the deer I have shot with it, I can only remember 3 that didn't pass through. 1 I spined, 1 I buried it in his front shoulder (didn't find, but was shot by gun hunters on our farm 1 month later with the arrow still there), and 1 that I think buried in his offside shoulder but never found to confirm.


WOW!!
Okay you seem to allude to the fact that the KE will not be the same because of the weight differences of the shaft types mentioned. The speeds will differ as well (assuming you are shooting from the same setup) The heavier arrow will be slower than the lighter one. So already this means you are comparing apples to oranges. Second the pencil and and spaghetti analagy loses steam because of the differences in the spine of the two, the spine of the two arrows in question are identical (400). So that goes out the window. The increased shaft diameter goes out without a common wall thickness,AND in the case of carbon arrows a comparison of the carbon weave (a major factor in carbon arrow spine).
So if the two arrows you want to compare have (in Theory) the same weight, and speed shot from the same bow and are shot into a deer, elk, moose or bear with the same 1 1/2 inch broadhead attached to the front of it the diameter of the shaft will make very little difference to the amount of penetration.
Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, if you are looking for the shaft diameter to determine the maximum amount of penetration, then you have wayyyyyy too much time on your hands. But hey no skin off my nose, Postulate away!!!
So says the guy that shoots a 31.5 inch 2317 aluminum arrow at 260 fps with a 125grain Thunderhead out of a 78lb bow from the year 2000. Penetration has never been a concern for me.

By the way I actually agree with Mr.Bro and I believe the Axis arrows are some great arrows.
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#3498562 - 12/13/13 06:42 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Hoss]
Mr.Bro
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Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 2868
Loc: Hendersonville Tn.

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I think i'm getting a headache.
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#3498671 - 12/13/13 08:16 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Mr.Bro]
krazykarl_13
Spike


Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 80
Loc: crossville

Offline
My friend has had good luck with his small epic axis arrows. They are pretty light. If you make a good shot, it's most likely going to pass through with any arrow on a whitetail.
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#3499679 - 12/13/13 10:42 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: knightrider]
DixieCrafter
4 Point


Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 333
Loc: Mid-TN

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 Originally Posted By: knightrider
on thin whitetail bones how much more penetration do you need? thru a rib, thru the lungs, out the other rib, in the dirt


I guess they aren't satisfied until the arrow sinks up to the fletching in the dirt after a pass through!

 Originally Posted By: Hoss
Analysis Paralysis


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
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#3499956 - 12/14/13 09:14 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: DixieCrafter]
DMAG
4 Point


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 299
Loc: Bradley County, TN

Offline
I have done calculation after calculation and have come to the most amazing equation evaluation that has ever come to bow hunting. I have shot about as many arrows as you can think of and determined with the new bows at 70 lbs penetration will not ever be an issue. I am in electrical engineering and have helped many mechanical engineers do tests for projects and fun mostly and as much as I would like to say I have come up with a magical equation, I can honestly say it hasnt happened. The nice thing with standard sized arrows is you can nock and sling, with no rest adjustments. I can say that lighter arrows are nice for yard estimated, but from my shooting I have come to like a hair stiffer arrow and a heavier weight arrow. I tend to be more accurate with them. I like Easton FMJs and Rage heads. On a target there will be a hair more penetration with the micro diameter shaft, but It really comes down to how well your bow is tuned for the arrow. All the bows energy being put into a larger shaft is better than 90 percent energybeing put into a smaller shaft.
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#3500674 - 12/14/13 08:13 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: DMAG]
Mr.Bro
10 Point


Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 2868
Loc: Hendersonville Tn.

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Wasted energy with complete pass throughs and 2 holes is still better than complete energy and only none hole.
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#3500913 - 12/14/13 10:53 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Mr.Bro]
Hoss
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 02/14/00
Posts: 1467
Loc: Hendersonville , TN

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 Originally Posted By: Mr.Bro
Wasted energy with complete pass throughs and 2 holes is still better than complete energy and only none hole.


X2
Like
Ditto
Agreed

Plus if my Broomstick arrow id buried at least 6 inches into the dirt then maybe the deer will trip over it as it exits the area! 2 inches deep will just not get the tripping aspect of my recovery process done.
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#3501056 - 12/15/13 07:11 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Hoss]
UTGrad
14 Point


Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 9689
Loc: Franklin, TN

Offline
Lol Hoss

Now that's just plain mean

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#3501179 - 12/15/13 09:06 AM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: UTGrad]
DMAG
4 Point


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 299
Loc: Bradley County, TN

Offline
If you use Rage heads than all you got to do is pull a draw off on em and they pass out like them fainting goats. Im gonna start using fat shafts to give em a real speed bump \:\)
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#3501570 - 12/15/13 02:20 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: DMAG]
Mr.Bro
10 Point


Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 2868
Loc: Hendersonville Tn.

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Hoss has been shooting "fat arrows" before "fat arrows" were cool.

Like early 70S.
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#3503619 - 12/16/13 06:48 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: DMAG]
Pinwheeled
4 Point


Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 147
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: DMAG
I have done calculation after calculation and have come to the most amazing equation evaluation that has ever come to bow hunting. I have shot about as many arrows as you can think of and determined with the new bows at 70 lbs penetration will not ever be an issue. I am in electrical engineering and have helped many mechanical engineers do tests for projects and fun mostly and as much as I would like to say I have come up with a magical equation, I can honestly say it hasnt happened. The nice thing with standard sized arrows is you can nock and sling, with no rest adjustments. I can say that lighter arrows are nice for yard estimated, but from my shooting I have come to like a hair stiffer arrow and a heavier weight arrow. I tend to be more accurate with them. I like Easton FMJs and Rage heads. On a target there will be a hair more penetration with the micro diameter shaft, but It really comes down to how well your bow is tuned for the arrow. All the bows energy being put into a larger shaft is better than 90 percent energybeing put into a smaller shaft.


You lost me here...

-Why would you have to make rest adjustments for a smaller diameter arrow and not a "standard" diameter? There isn't really a "standard" diameter arrow.

-If your bow is tuned correctly and all things equal, how would a bow put more energy behind a larger diameter arrow than a small diameter arrow?

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#3506776 - 12/18/13 07:15 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Pinwheeled]
FLTENNHUNTER1
16 Point


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 16413
Loc: Tampa FL

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I shot fat xx78's for years and never had a problem blowing through deer. Marketing hype mostly, but I do like shooting small diameter carbon arrows.
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#3513320 - 12/23/13 06:44 PM Re: Thin Diameter Arrows for Penetration? [Re: Mr.Bro]
Bootlegger
4 Point


Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 144
Loc: Crossville,TN

Offline
I haven't ever used the small diameter arrows yet. Would like too, but I got two dozen Carbon Express Mayhem Hunter 350's. I shoot Swhacker 100gr. 2" cut heads. My diameter is 0.303 and I haven't had any issues with pass throughs. I had one blow through at 30 yards this year on a 8 point. That was my longest shot outta the 5 i've killed so far this year. All were pass through. They are some tough arrows. When there all gone I might try some smaller diametershafts one day. But the last few years I haven't had any issue with a pass through with these. If they pass through better than these i will be amazed....that would be great. I'm roughly shooting 78lbs of KE. right now.

Edited by Bootlegger (12/23/13 06:52 PM)
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