Tndeer Logo

Page all of 4 1234>
Topic Options
#3411272 - 10/20/13 08:51 PM Smoke out of breech area ok?
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
I've been noticing as I shoot 60gr IMR-4198 out of my apex, a little smoke rolls out of the breech/break open area. I assume its ok just wanted to ask...


Thanks!

Top
#3411299 - 10/20/13 09:11 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
I have not experienced that in 14 years of smokeless shooting. It is not ok IMO. You are getting blow by for some reason. Either your breech plug is leaking at the face where it meets the barrel or it is coming from the primer side. Neither is good as it will allow gas checking or cutting which will erode the plug face. What does the plug look like? Can you post a close up of the plug? What do your fired primers look like?
Top
#3411311 - 10/20/13 09:16 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tar12]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
Dang, thanks for the help. I'll grab a picture of the plug tomorrow.

Not sure I have a fired primer, but I'll look.i think I tossed them.

Top
#3411321 - 10/20/13 09:23 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
Has your gun done this from the beginning or has this came on gradually? If you can fire another one off and save the primer and take a picture it would be helpfull in determining if you have a pressure problem.

Edited by Tar12 (10/20/13 09:24 PM)

Top
#3411327 - 10/20/13 09:26 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tar12]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
Ok I'll check. I'm think it happened when I increased charge to 60gr.... I don't remember it happening with initial charges at 56gr.

So I assume blow by would be a sign or too much pressure?


Edited by Tenn.Guy (10/20/13 09:27 PM)

Top
#3411340 - 10/20/13 09:35 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
I don't know the history of your gun. Mine was converted by Slufoot, and a fine job he did. After several shots, the spacer he installed in my breech plug stuck to a primer and pulled out with the primer. I noticed it and reinstalled it without any further problems. It was really stuck to the end of the primer. I had to hold the primer with pliers and use a screwdriver to remove the spacer from it. Does yours have this spacer and if so is it missing? BTW, since the primer is headspaced I had Slufoot headspace a spare breech plug for me.

Also, if you are using teflon tape on your breech plug do not get any on the face of the plug that seats in the barrel as it will cause leaks and/or difficult removal. This was also mentioned to me by Slufoot.

Some disagree and/or don't understand, but when a Savage breech plug is installed in a gun that it has never been in before, it should be tightened to 10 ft lbs minimum to "marry" or "seat" the two surfaces. After the initial seating, resume normal plug installation procedures. Any time I install a new breech plug, I can feel it seating for the first time.
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3411377 - 10/20/13 09:58 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
CR500 I had no idea that they had a spacer. What purpose does this serve?
Top
#3411397 - 10/20/13 10:15 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tar12]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
On a Savage ML, the primer is held by the bolt and can't be driven into the BP.

On a conversion, the primer goes into the BP and the firing pin can drive it deeper. Slufoot makes a spacer and presses it into the BP so as to basically capture the primer between the BP and face of the action and hold the primer face flush with the barrel face.
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3411430 - 10/20/13 10:55 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2913
Loc: Lawrence Co.

content Online
I get a little blow by on my H&R. Its never bothered me though. Its a trade off of being able to easily remove primers after the shot.
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

Top
#3411433 - 10/20/13 11:04 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Rubberduck270]
Deer Assassin
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 87725
Loc: Kingston Springs

content Online
 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
I get a little blow by on my H&R. Its never bothered me though. Its a trade off of being able to easily remove primers after the shot.


ditto

no worries
_________________________
Drag Racing

Spending money I dont have

on things I dont need

to impress people I dont know

Top
#3411439 - 10/20/13 11:17 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Deer Assassin]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
Thanks for the info. I was trying to figure out why you needed a spacer.lol I have only dealt with Savage builds...
Top
#3411464 - 10/21/13 01:28 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tar12]
Roost 1
10 Point


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 4215
Loc: KY

content Online
I have had 2 barrels converted by Slufoot and both of them require then use of pliers or something to pry fired primer from plug..... Any ideals why this is???
_________________________
VooDoo Mafia

Z7extreme
Savage 10ML 2
Remington 700P .308

Top
#3411471 - 10/21/13 02:26 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Roost 1]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Roost 1
I have had 2 barrels converted by Slufoot and both of them require then use of pliers or something to pry fired primer from plug..... Any ideals why this is???


Because the primer has a step in its' OD. This step presses into the BP when you close the action to seal off the charge. Some people ream, dremel, etc. the BP ID to allow the primer to be removed by hand. While this is OK to a point, it leads to blast leakage around the primer and into the firing pin mechanism. I machined a strip of metal with a slot in the end to remove primers. This tool stays in my butt stock pouch along with fresh charges, primers, and projectiles.

On the Savage 10ML, the primer is captured by the bolt and is pulled out of the BP when the bolt is not in battery.
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3411587 - 10/21/13 07:30 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: CR500AFX
I don't know the history of your gun. Mine was converted by Slufoot, and a fine job he did. After several shots, the spacer he installed in my breech plug stuck to a primer and pulled out with the primer. I noticed it and reinstalled it without any further problems. It was really stuck to the end of the primer. I had to hold the primer with pliers and use a screwdriver to remove the spacer from it. Does yours have this spacer and if so is it missing? BTW, since the primer is headspaced I had Slufoot headspace a spare breech plug for me.

Also, if you are using teflon tape on your breech plug do not get any on the face of the plug that seats in the barrel as it will cause leaks and/or difficult removal. This was also mentioned to me by Slufoot.

Some disagree and/or don't understand, but when a Savage breech plug is installed in a gun that it has never been in before, it should be tightened to 10 ft lbs minimum to "marry" or "seat" the two surfaces. After the initial seating, resume normal plug installation procedures. Any time I install a new breech plug, I can feel it seating for the first time.


Thanks for the info. I'll snap a picture for viewing during lunch. Gun was converted by slufoot. It's only had 15 or so shots. I'm really not sure if it has a spacer or not, I have never noticed that. It is a very tight fit for primer requiring a removing tool. I did pick up some anti seize paste at Walmart. While I was waiting on the loc tite brand I picked up some Thompson Center.



Based on other's I assume a little blow by is ok?

Top
#3411642 - 10/21/13 08:32 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline







Top
#3411664 - 10/21/13 08:50 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2913
Loc: Lawrence Co.

content Online
Sh!t the bed, did you use the whole jar or anti seize on your plug? You sir, own the greasiest breech plug I have ever seen.

Did it look like that when you put it on there or is it flowing out?
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

Top
#3411680 - 10/21/13 09:07 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Rubberduck270]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
Sh!t the bed, did you use the whole jar or anti seize on your plug? You sir, own the greasiest breech plug I have ever seen.

Did it look like that when you put it on there or is it flowing out?


I completely agree!! It was new stuff I tried. It flowed out at as I tightened it.Possibly more has come out as I have shot. I dont plan on using that stuff anymore! I have shot it about 8-9 times with that anti sieze.

Top
#3411687 - 10/21/13 09:12 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2913
Loc: Lawrence Co.

content Online
Whatever it is it isn't taking the heat at all. I'd flush that crap off there and use some regular nickle anti-seize.
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

Top
#3411696 - 10/21/13 09:18 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Rubberduck270]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
Whatever it is it isn't taking the heat at all. I'd flush that crap off there and use some regular nickle anti-seize.


ordering now \:\) I wonder if that stuff could by causing the smoke? seems like it just started after I started using it, but I could be crazy.

Top
#3411699 - 10/21/13 09:20 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2913
Loc: Lawrence Co.

content Online
I wouldn't doubt it. What color was it when you put it on?
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

Top
#3411710 - 10/21/13 09:27 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Rubberduck270]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
Dark charcoal grey, almost black.
Top
#3411877 - 10/21/13 11:08 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Rubberduck270]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
The antiseize is OK. The BP is not "seated" in the barrel. Notice the shoulder between the threads and the vent liner. This is where the sealing occurs. There will, most likely, be spots on that surface that are not uniform looking. Mine did the exact same thing until I "mated/married" the two surfaces by the previously mentioned method. The face in the barrel may have microscopic chatter marks from the boring operation that Slufoot performed. Chatter is normal and it doesn't take much to leak at 30, 40, or even 50 THOUSAND PSI.
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3411983 - 10/21/13 12:14 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: CR500AFX
The antiseize is OK. The BP is not "seated" in the barrel. Notice the shoulder between the threads and the vent liner. This is where the sealing occurs. There will, most likely, be spots on that surface that are not uniform looking. Mine did the exact same thing until I "mated/married" the two surfaces by the previously mentioned method. The face in the barrel may have microscopic chatter marks from the boring operation that Slufoot performed. Chatter is normal and it doesn't take much to leak at 30, 40, or even 50 THOUSAND PSI.


Thanks for the help. Below I put an arrow. I assume that is the shoulder your refer too... I dont have a torque wrench. I did have it snugged down tight. Do I need to apply more pressure snugging it down? Am I supposed to feel something give?


Top
#3412082 - 10/21/13 01:11 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
Yes, that is the land. In the picture, on that land at about 1 o'clock, you see a shiny line. That is where that portion is seated properly. I would wager that you don't have a line like that all the way around. Honestly, I didn't use a torque wrench, and most likely torqued more than 10. Yes, you will feel it sort of give, like a bolt that is stretching. It probably will be less than 1/16 turn before it stops and is seated. You may want to back it off and do it again just to make sure.

I laid my rifle, broken down, on the floor and held it down with my knee. Use a 3" to 6" long 3/8 drive ratchet, extension, and socket. Don't over do it. We're not tightening head bolts or lug nuts.


Edited by CR500AFX (10/21/13 01:14 PM)
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3412113 - 10/21/13 01:36 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
ok good deal, thanks for the info. I was also told I needed to use the Winchester primers, because that is what slufoot headspaced it for? I sent him a PM to confirm this. I was told fed dont necessarily seat property calling blow by?
Top
#3412126 - 10/21/13 01:45 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
I use Winchester primers in all my smokeless guns too.
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3412379 - 10/21/13 04:34 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
This is the anti-seize that I prefer to use. It is a semi-solid much like a deodrant stick. I learned to avoid the runny/liquid stuff as it will migrate and can and will cause mis-fires. You do not need to go crazy on lubing the plug...just enough to lightly coat the threads on the breech plug and ventliner.



Top
#3412404 - 10/21/13 04:59 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
fullstream
8 Point


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1534
Loc: tipton

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Tenn.Guy
ok good deal, thanks for the info. I was also told I needed to use the Winchester primers, because that is what slufoot headspaced it for? I sent him a PM to confirm this. I was told fed dont necessarily seat property calling blow by?



I use fed 209a on both my conversions with no blowback.

Top
#3412425 - 10/21/13 05:12 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: fullstream]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
It doesn't matter what kind of antiseize or teflon tape is used. The threads do not seal the BP, the above mentioned shoulder does. Until the BP is seated properly to the barrel, gas cutting will occur in the areas that aren't seated properly.

Edited by CR500AFX (10/21/13 05:15 PM)
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3412530 - 10/21/13 06:37 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
Thanks guys. BP is now married to the gun. Going to change the anti seize and get at it again. I'll post up the results.
Top
#3412659 - 10/21/13 07:31 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
Although it is obvious that anti-seize or teflon tape does not seal the plug it does matter if you over do the anti-seize as I found out the hard way on my first "module" .50 cal Sav. My breech plug/vent looked a lot like this one. I was scared to death I would "stick' one and over done it big time.If you continue to lather one up the breech plug threads will chase the excess anti-seize to the front and build up and clog the vent orfice. That stupid doe stood there while I tried to kill her 3 times before she took off...lol When I got it tore down it was very apparent as to what had transpired. The front of the plug(vent side) was a moist mess and the vent was clogged. I also discovered as CR500 has that plugs on all smokeless builds need to be "torqued" as I had a pre-accutrigger that I noticed gas checking on the plug and the plug would work its self loose until I put some muscle on it and it solved that problem.There was no smoke associated with it.
Top
#3412815 - 10/21/13 08:33 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tar12]
ratsnakeboogy
10 Point


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 3511
Loc: Andersonville, TN

Offline
So does anyone have the actual torque spec to "marry" the plug? I tend to over torque everything, so I would like to put a torque wrench on it.
Top
#3412938 - 10/21/13 09:29 PM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: ratsnakeboogy
So does anyone have the actual torque spec to "marry" the plug? I tend to over torque everything, so I would like to put a torque wrench on it.


Slufoot told me I couldn't over tighten, so I just cranked it down.

Top
#3413253 - 10/22/13 07:29 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: Tenn.Guy]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
Before hitting the woods this morning, I checked to see how much I had been tightening my breech plug. I used my small inch pound wrench. I always choke my 6inch ratchet so I choked the torque wrench too. I found that I tend to apply 10-12 ftlb when normally installing the plug. I then held the broken down gun on the floor with my knees and went to 20 ftlb. This is very close to what I applied to seat my plug when new. I wouldn't exceed 30 ftlb. Obviously, excessive torque should not be applied as the nipple could be twisted off. I wish that I could remember where I read the spec,
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3413379 - 10/22/13 09:05 AM Re: Smoke out of breech area ok? [Re: SCAT]
ratsnakeboogy
10 Point


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 3511
Loc: Andersonville, TN

Offline
I'll try 20 and see what it feels like.
Top
#3415735 - 10/23/13 04:15 PM Update: No Blowback [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1917
Loc: Tenn

Offline
Update: Either seating the BP really good,using teflon tape, or switching to Win primers resolved my problem.

All I know is the issue is resolved and it's almost ML season!


Edited by Tenn.Guy (10/23/13 04:53 PM)

Top
#3415803 - 10/23/13 04:56 PM Re: Update: No Blowback [Re: Tenn.Guy]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
Good deal! Now go kill some deer!
Top
#3416290 - 10/23/13 09:25 PM Re: Update: No Blowback [Re: Tar12]
SCAT
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 706
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Tar12
Good deal! Now go kill some deer!


X2
_________________________
She told me if I go hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

Top
#3416329 - 10/23/13 09:44 PM Re: Update: No Blowback [Re: SCAT]
TN Larry
10 Point


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3163
Loc: Baxter, Tennessee

content Online
I just wonder why slufoot didn't "marry" it originally. That is not meant as a slight to him. I noticed the smoke on Sunday when he was shooting and knew that something wasn't right. Glad it would is good now.
_________________________
I pray to fish until my dying day. When it comes to my last cast, I then most humbly pray, when in the Lord's safe landing net & I'm at peace that in His mercy I be judged big enough to keep.

Top
#3418150 - 10/25/13 01:34 AM Re: Update: No Blowback [Re: TN Larry]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 358
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
Larry I think it is a rare thing to have this happen. I have only heard of it 2-3 times.
Top
Page all of 4 1234>


Moderator:  RUGER, Taylor, Unicam, TeamTndeer, Tborg, Tennessee Todd, Bobby G, Cuttin Caller, Kimber45, Mrs.Unicam, Crappie Luck 
Hop to:
Top Posters
4105934
RUGER
87725
Deer Assassin
65683
BSK
61495
Crappie Luck
51376
spitndrum
Newest Members
lovetohunt96, Csfraley, Big Dc, JaxTN870, IDOT
13410 Registered Users
Who's Online
124 registered (TRIGGER, sll, Moonman, TheRealSpurhunter, downthebrown, encore06, 13 invisible) and 167 anonymous users online.
Forum Stats
13410 Members
42 Forums
96567 Topics
1130736 Posts

Max Online: 788 @ 11/11/13 08:06 PM
Moon Phase
CURRENT MOON
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Forum Donations
The TnDeer.Com Deer Talk Forum is for Tennessee Deer Hunters by Tennessee Deer Hunters. If you enjoy using our Talk Forum and would like to contribute to help in it's up-keep. Just submit your contribution by clicking on the DONATE button below and paying with PayPal or a major credit card. Any amount is much appreciated. Thanks for your support!

TN Burn Safe

Generated in 0.072 seconds in which 0.002 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.