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#3393095 - 10/08/13 10:47 AM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: megalomaniac]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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Keep in mind that "smaller" birth weights, "smaller" antlers during the first year or two, these are commonly more related to physical condition of birth mother and timing of birth than due to anything genetic.
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#3393218 - 10/08/13 11:54 AM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Mega and Wes make an important point. Some data exists that suggest a not only a buck's size/antler-growth early in life, but potentially for his entire lifetime, may be linked to the health of his mother, even before she became pregnant with him. Crazy stuff, and I hope more research is done on this topic.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3398231 - 10/11/13 01:46 PM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: BSK]
Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
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I agree the Does health plays a role in how big/healthy her fawn(s) will be early on. I have saw some studies however where most fawns that were simply born late, or born to smaller (many times yearling) does, will grow out of the being below average weight and rack size, by the time they are 3 1/2. This is interesting however as if this is the case these bucks would actually be somewhat protected from the problem of High grading at 2 1/2?
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#3398282 - 10/11/13 02:30 PM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: Winchester]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
I agree the Does health plays a role in how big/healthy her fawn(s) will be early on. I have saw some studies however where most fawns that were simply born late, or born to smaller (many times yearling) does, will grow out of the being below average weight and rack size, by the time they are 3 1/2. This is interesting however as if this is the case these bucks would actually be somewhat protected from the problem of High grading at 2 1/2?


I've been wondering why some bucks that were above average 2yr olds didn't make as big of a jump as I thought they would when 3 years old but some average 2 year olds blew into 3 year old studs. Hmmmm


Edited by Hollar Hunter (10/11/13 02:31 PM)
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#3399088 - 10/12/13 09:42 AM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: Winchester]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
I agree the Does health plays a role in how big/healthy her fawn(s) will be early on. I have saw some studies however where most fawns that were simply born late, or born to smaller (many times yearling) does, will grow out of the being below average weight and rack size, by the time they are 3 1/2. This is interesting however as if this is the case these bucks would actually be somewhat protected from the problem of High grading at 2 1/2?


Yes, those studies exist and are the standard "thought" on the issue. But one problem with those studies that has been pointed is the fact that they involve penned deer where all parent deer are fed well, hence any potential effect of parent malnourishment is removed. Of course, this was done on purpose. In any study you want to isolate a single variable to see its effect without other factors "muddying the water." But in the real world, many factors are at play.

The one study I find fascinating (although this is just ONE study and would need to be repeated in a variety of situations) was the South Dakota study using two sets of deer captured from the wild--one from the Black Hills and the other from the agricultural region of eastern SD. These populations of wild deer are noteworthy for their huge difference in body weight and antler production, with the low habitat quality of the Black Hills region producing much smaller bodied and antler deer than the agricultural region. These deer were captured just before the rut, kept isolated from each other, but fed the same high-quality foods. However, being captured just before the rut, the high-quality feed did not have a chance to influence individual deer health before breeding. Male offspring from the Black Hills population from that first breeding were tracked over their lifetime and compared to the male offspring of the agricultural deer. The Black Hills first year male offspring seriously underperformed the first-year male offspring from the agricultural region, and if a remember correctly, by a huge margin (around 30 gross inches less antler growth even at maturity).

However, the second year male offspring from these two groups--after all parent deer had experienced a full year of exceptional feed quality--displayed no difference at maturity. The male offspring from the Black Hills--after their mothers had been fed well for a year--were able to grow equal antlers at maturity to the agricultural region male offspring.

This is just one study, but it strongly suggests that a mother doe's over-all health can have a profound impact on her male offspring's antler growth potential FOR HIS ENTIRE LIFE.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3399094 - 10/12/13 09:45 AM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: Hollar Hunter]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Winchester
I agree the Does health plays a role in how big/healthy her fawn(s) will be early on. I have saw some studies however where most fawns that were simply born late, or born to smaller (many times yearling) does, will grow out of the being below average weight and rack size, by the time they are 3 1/2. This is interesting however as if this is the case these bucks would actually be somewhat protected from the problem of High grading at 2 1/2?


I've been wondering why some bucks that were above average 2yr olds didn't make as big of a jump as I thought they would when 3 years old but some average 2 year olds blew into 3 year old studs. Hmmmm


The variability of Nature. I'm sure reasons exist for each individual case, but they will be deer specific. For instance, perhaps a particular buck used valuable resources to fight off an illness, hence had less resources left over for antler growth. or perhaps a particular buck dropped lower on the social ladder. Changes in dominance status can occur quickly, and some studies suggest--for individual males--dominance status plays a role in antler growth. In essence, being subordinated has some sort of "suppressor effect" on a buck's antler growth.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3410678 - 10/20/13 11:55 AM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
In essence, being subordinated has some sort of "suppressor effect" on a buck's antler growth.

Do you believe this to be the case mainly with yearling and 2 1/2-yr-old bucks?

And, do you believe having a herd with good buck age structure (lots of mature bucks) has a STIMULATING effect on antler growth of older bucks?

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#3411565 - 10/21/13 07:09 AM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Being subordinate, at any age, most likely has a suppressor effect. Being dominant, at any age, most likely eliminates this suppressor effect, and might even stimulate antler growth.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3412846 - 10/21/13 08:44 PM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: BSK]
pass-thru
10 Point


Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 3627
Loc: va beach

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Several years ago I shot an 8 pointer...very nice rack but slightly small. He ran off and crashed. At the sound of him crashing, what looked to be a large doe ran in for a look...and froze at 60 yards looking for the source of the crash. I looked at this large doe for a good 3 minutes through optics, and could see no sign of buttons. This was a big deer. I shot it. Came up to it only to find hard polished buttons that didn't break the hairline. I dragged the two deer side by side and the large "button" was significantly larger in body than the 8 pointer. I cut their jaw bones. The eight pointer was a 2 year old. He would have been average at best for a yearling in body size, but was above average in rack for a 2 year old in my area. The button was a yearling buck. Huge in size for his age, he would have been closer to average for a 2 year old buck.

I don't know when either of the these bucks were born. I would say the 8 point was more likely to be early born, but with good genetics.

I think birth date has an impact, but also some deer naturally devote more resources to body size, whereas some devote more to antler growth. An attitude plays as much as role as either in dominance.

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#3412857 - 10/21/13 08:49 PM Re: Yearling bucks [Re: pass-thru]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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I'm not sure you can say anything positive when only looking at an individual deer (as to why he grew what he grew). All we can talk about is general trends among a local population.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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