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#3390279 - 10/06/13 04:52 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19289
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: nick2720
I don't think averages can truly be calculated unless its a controlled environment WO variable to affect the outcome.


Actually, you can get very good averages by looking at trail-camera data. Trail-camera data does not suffer from selectivity by hunters.

I agree you can get better averages by looking at trail-cam data, but with the exception of pre-season yearling bucks, even the trail-cam data sufferes from the selectivity by hunters. Exception would be in a very large unhunted area, such as Cades Cove.

In most areas hunted, today's hunters are going to harvest a much higher percentage of the larger antlered bucks of all age classes, leaving relatively more of the smaller antlered to advance into the next year's age class. And this is particularly the case with yearlings, 2 1/2's, and 3 1/2's. Thus, regarding the 2 1/2 and older bucks we get pics, those cohorts have already suffered from the selectivity of hunters in the prior year.

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#3390292 - 10/06/13 05:00 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: BSK]
nick2720
4 Point


Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 276
Loc: martin, tn

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How would putting cams up in an area where there might be a preferred food source or hunting pressure not affect the data collected on cams? Say if I put it in a highly pressured area I may be only getting few deer on cam and may not be correctly represent what is in the 50 acre woods. Same for the rut a hot doe may draw smaller or bigger off a neighbors? I wonder if there is a correlation between genetics and competitiveness.. I wonder if a 130 in 2.5 is more competitive and aggressive BC it is bigger than most other 2.5 yr olds... I just feel like without a constant to compare to how can you test your hypothesis? That's where I say variables would affect the outcome. And how accurate are cams that take photos? I wonder how many deer aren't caught on cam. I did a project 2 yrs ago. Ran 4 cams 2 strapped to a tree one took stills other took video clips. I was amazed how many doe that triggered cam had bucks following seconds behind. But the stills only caught the doe in some cases the bucks weren't captured. In a controlled environment I think you could get an accurate average but just don't see how weather food pressure natural predation human error or genetics can't skew data. I've seen scientific research papers that had this same problem and I've seen the statistical model they use and alot of people say it isn't accurate and I'm not saying either or iv just seen controversy with it. I know you use them a lot but want to know how you compensate for these variables?
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#3390298 - 10/06/13 05:05 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: nick2720]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19289
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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Nick2720,

BSK has done many photo deer inventories on properties consisting of many thousand acres each. The large size of the sample, and his consistency allow for much better data than say me or you placing a couple cams.

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#3390346 - 10/06/13 05:29 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: Wes Parrish]
nick2720
4 Point


Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 276
Loc: martin, tn

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I agree and understand, I had to use power analysis to verify may sample size was big enough to get an accurate sample in another research study I did. I was just wondering how he compensated for uncontrolled variables BC I know others have had issues with this. But your saying since he has vast studies and info and its consistent he has essentially created a constant to compare to proving its accuracy? Or am I totally off? Haha
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#3390475 - 10/06/13 07:04 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: nick2720
I don't think averages can truly be calculated unless its a controlled environment WO variable to affect the outcome.


Actually, you can get very good averages by looking at trail-camera data. Trail-camera data does not suffer from selectivity by hunters.

I agree you can get better averages by looking at trail-cam data, but with the exception of pre-season yearling bucks, even the trail-cam data sufferes from the selectivity by hunters. Exception would be in a very large unhunted area, such as Cades Cove.

In most areas hunted, today's hunters are going to harvest a much higher percentage of the larger antlered bucks of all age classes, leaving relatively more of the smaller antlered to advance into the next year's age class. And this is particularly the case with yearlings, 2 1/2's, and 3 1/2's. Thus, regarding the 2 1/2 and older bucks we get pics, those cohorts have already suffered from the selectivity of hunters in the prior year.


You're absolutely right Wes. The trail-camera data will display the effects of high-grading by hunters.

But that said, trail-camera data will still provide what the ACTUAL averages are as they exist. That may not be what is possible (again, due to high-grading), but it is the real averages that exist in the wild.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3390494 - 10/06/13 07:15 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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nick2720,

The photo census process is a scientifically tested, verified, and peer reviewed process. Accuracy in the original study was 95+%. My personal studies suggest 98% accuracy (98% of deer are captured on camera) using mark-recapture methodology.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3390542 - 10/06/13 07:37 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: BSK]
nick2720
4 Point


Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 276
Loc: martin, tn

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Gotcha I was just curious.. which cams do you use ? Does the blackout style ir's differ from flash cams in your studies. I hear it on commercial s but always wondered if there was scientific studies to back it up. Also shutter noise, trigger speed, and size or color / style ever made a difference?. I use the ir by wildgame innovations and I know there is a little noise and trigger speed giant as quick as other premium cams. It seems they can pick out the blocky black cams out to easy. Just wondering what you use or thinks best. I know I'm asking a lot but how many cams per acre do you run. I'm just wondering if I wanted to run cams on my place yr round and try to figure an average what all id have to do. My place my not be big enough though
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#3390560 - 10/06/13 07:46 PM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: in the dog house!]
Adam Jackson
4 Point


Registered: 09/17/13
Posts: 219
Loc: West Tn

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I agree with you Mike. I believe it is smart to give yourself some insurance at Ames. There is so much pressure it seems to score the minimum at Ames. You almost always need to give yourself some insurance. A lot of those deer you let walk have the possibility to go another year, which in turn, lets that buck go from 3 1/2 to 4 1/2. Better yet, possibly graduate from 4 1/2 to 5 1/2.
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#3391171 - 10/07/13 07:23 AM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: Adam Jackson]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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nick2720,

Camera type and model make a huge difference. I wrote a lengthy article on the subject of black-flash cams versus visible flash cams (red-glow [IR] and white-flash) published in Quality Whitetails. With visible flash cams, the number of pictures declined dramatically over time as these cameras were left in one position, primarily because deer learned to avoid the flash. In contrast, the number of pictures from black-flash cams INCREASED dramatically over time, most likely because deer eventually get over their initial fear of the camera set up, once the camera proved inert.

Personally, I wouldn't use any camera that is not black-flash. A quiet camera (one that does not produce an audible "clunk" when switching filters) is also important. And how cameras are monitored (how and when memory cards are swapped) plays a huge role in data collected.

The biggest issue with camera model is reliability. Some brands have an excellent reputation for reliability while others, terrible. Probably the worst brand of camera is Wild Game Innovations. Their camera quality is very low and failure rates exceptionally high. Reconyx makes the most reliable camera, with their units often lasting many years without problems. However, their cost is prohibitively high (but they are the model used in almost all research, due to reliability). In addition, personally, I'm not a huge fan of their image quality. Because of their lower resolution (to allow rapid writing of the image file to the memory card), their images have a bit of "fuzz" to them. As a "middle of the road" choice between cost and reliability, I recommend the Trophy Cams, Coverts, and most recently the Moultrie black-flash cams (Moultrie has only just recently improved their camera quality to the point I can recommend them). I constantly switch between brands of cameras trying to find the best features. Right now, I'm using quite a few of the Uway VH200B models. These certainly aren't perfect, but they have the best combination of features (for my uses). In addition, when monitoring open areas, like field edges or food plots, I attach a black-flash flash extender to each camera, to greatly increase flash distance at night (black-flash cams normally have very poor flash range, due to the amount of power required to produce black-flash).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3391550 - 10/07/13 11:19 AM Re: Antler size over-estimation [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19289
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
Very informative post from the BSK! \:\)
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Personally, I wouldn't use any camera that is not black-flash. . . . . . The biggest issue with camera model is reliability.

x 2

 Originally Posted By: BSK
Probably the worst brand of camera is Wild Game Innovations. (For me, it has been Uway, followed by Cuddeback.) Their camera quality is very low and failure rates exceptionally high.
Seriously, I almost entirely stopped running trail cams because of my experiences with the time-wasting failures of the Uways --- this after those cams had good reviews on Chasin' Game's website. I've said many times I would never buy another cam made in China, but have done it again with the testing now of three Covert cams.
 Originally Posted By: BSK
As a "middle of the road" choice between cost and reliability, I recommend the Trophy Cams, Coverts, and most recently the Moultrie black-flash cams . . . . . I constantly switch between brands of cameras trying to find the best features.

Same here, only I cannot currently recommend the Bushnell Trophy Cams based on my personal experiences (and I have no experience with Moultrie). I'm currently testing three Covert Extreme Black 60 cams. Initial testing has been positive, and daytime images may be the best I've seen. They are less expensive than the most similar Bushnell, and so far, have worked as advertised.

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