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#3364557 - 09/18/13 02:24 PM conversion loads-
SCAT
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Registered: 08/10/12
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I researched loads for my conversion (H&R Ultra Hunter) even before it was complete. The only powder I had was RL7 that I use in the 50. I tried 200 SST in harvester lt blue sabot knurled and the tan MMP sabot un-knurled. I also tried 250gr xtp sabotless but at the time I didn't have wads for them (they shot pretty well). RL7 57 grains up to 65. My groups just didn't impress me thus far. I noticed that there is little load info on RL7, as if it isn't a preferred powder.

Since my range session, I floated the barrel and lowered trigger pull to 2.75 pounds. These changes could make a marked improvement, although it shot very well as a 45-70 cartridge gun previous to the conversion.

Luckily, I have managed to obtain some 4198 and it appears that there is a lot of load info for it. Pressure traces and all that stuff are important but I am also interested in accuracy.

Could some of you converts please post some 4198 loads that work well for you sabotless as well as saboted. Keep in mind that I am aware of fit and loading pressure. Being as I only have 1 pound of powder, I would like to make the best of it and have some left to hunt with this rifle a couple of times this year. Otherwise, it may not be utilized until next year. I have 2 Savage 50's that are ready to roar.


Edited by CR500AFX (09/18/13 03:19 PM)
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#3364648 - 09/18/13 03:20 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
Roost 1
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Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 3929
Loc: KY

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Which 4198 do you have?
H4198 or
IMR 4198?
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#3364654 - 09/18/13 03:23 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2804
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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62 grs. of H4198 is all my gun will reliably shoot. Any more and it starts blowing sabots. I've never tried sabotless so I can't help you in that department.

There are 7000 grs. in a lb. so at 62 grs. you'll have 100+ shots (it's actually 112.9 shots but I rounded down a little since I've been known to spill some \:\) ).
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#3364667 - 09/18/13 03:32 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: Rubberduck270]
SCAT
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Registered: 08/10/12
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I failed to mention that I have IMR4198. I will start out a couple of grains lower that your loads just to be safe.
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#3364679 - 09/18/13 03:41 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
Tenn.Guy
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Registered: 09/17/07
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I started mine out with H4198 at 56 grains, Harvester Blue sabot and sst. Shot fantastic without knurling . Going to get out in a couple weeks and try to bump it to 60gr.

I have IMR now so I'll post up the results when I have time to shoot. Good luck and keep us posted.

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#3364795 - 09/18/13 04:51 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: Tenn.Guy]
ratsnakeboogy
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Registered: 08/28/08
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I shoot the Barnes 195 knurled at 58gr. H4198, the 200 Shockwave/SST unknurled at 57gr. H4198.

I can't find H4198 with any regularity, so I picked up several pounds of IMR4198. Burn rate should be close to the same. I blow sabots at anything over 59 gr. if the temp is over 60 degrees, so I backed down to 57 and 58. Reloader 7, H4198, IMR4198, and N120 are all very close. I like the N120 the best as it is easy on vent liners and burns very clean. N120 is also about extinct as far as I can tell. Can't find it anywhere, can't even get anybody to try to order it anymore.

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#3364895 - 09/18/13 06:46 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
Roost 1
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Registered: 07/24/11
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Buddy of mine shoots the Reloader 7 in his Apex with fantastic results..
He had very good accuracy with 57grs up to 150yds then it went south quick. Now he has upped it to 60grs and is much improved.
Barnes 195 and smooth blue...
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#3372543 - 09/24/13 01:00 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: Roost 1]
SCAT
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Registered: 08/10/12
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I have found my hunting load. 250 SST, 56gr IMR4198 sabotless with wool wad 2350fps. Will likely increase to 58gr when weather cools down. Fired 3 shots from one of my stands today that were under 1.5 inch group at 92 yards by rangefinder. Shots were fired back to back with no cool down time.

Now, the anticipation builds for the archery opener on Saturday.


Edited by CR500AFX (09/24/13 01:26 PM)
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#3372807 - 09/24/13 04:17 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
fullstream
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Registered: 12/04/06
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Loc: tipton

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 Originally Posted By: CR500AFX
I have found my hunting load. 250 SST, 56gr IMR4198 sabotless with wool wad 2350fps. Will likely increase to 58gr when weather cools down. Fired 3 shots from one of my stands today that were under 1.5 inch group at 92 yards by rangefinder. Shots were fired back to back with no cool down time.

Now, the anticipation builds for the archery opener on Saturday.


Congrats on finding your hunting load.
Did you have to resize the sst?

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#3373482 - 09/25/13 07:54 AM Re: conversion loads- [Re: fullstream]
SCAT
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Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 628
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

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The 250 SST fits without resizing or knurling. I tried a 300 sst and it was too tight right before reaching the powder. I don't want to hammer it in. After measuring, the 300 SST is .0005 larger than the 250 SST. The 250 SST can be had at Walmart under the TC shockwave brand part number 8242 and the bonded version is 8245. The IMR 4198, for some reason in this gun, is more accurate and consistent.

I have some Barnes 300gr Expander MZ #45131, that when knurled, fit very well. I haven't shot them yet. They are a long projectile that may be better suited to the conversion due to the increased twist of the 45-70. I am concerned they won't obdurate into the rifling properly, being all copper.
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#3373488 - 09/25/13 08:00 AM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
Rubberduck270
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Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2804
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Thanks for the info CR500. I've got a few Shockwaves somewhere I'll be cramming down my barrel in the near future lol.
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#3373719 - 09/25/13 10:18 AM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
smokeless74
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Registered: 05/23/13
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Loc: PA/MD Line

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 Originally Posted By: CR500AFX
The 250 SST fits without resizing or knurling. I tried a 300 sst and it was too tight right before reaching the powder. I don't want to hammer it in. After measuring, the 300 SST is .0005 larger than the 250 SST. The 250 SST can be had at Walmart under the TC shockwave brand part number 8242 and the bonded version is 8245. The IMR 4198, for some reason in this gun, is more accurate and consistent.

I have some Barnes 300gr Expander MZ #45131, that when knurled, fit very well. I haven't shot them yet. They are a long projectile that may be better suited to the conversion due to the increased twist of the 45-70. I am concerned they won't obdurate into the rifling properly, being all copper.


A better bang for your buck is to buy the 250gr FTX's in bulk 50 packs or the 225gr FTX's in 100 packs. The all copper bullets will shoot just fine in your gun. 250gr TEZ's and 225gr XPB's will give a little less recoil then the 300 grainers. I would duplex with SR4759 but that's just my opinion. I like the added security it provides. Good Luck!!

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#3373745 - 09/25/13 10:33 AM Re: conversion loads- [Re: smokeless74]
SCAT
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Registered: 08/10/12
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I am currently using #45201 250 FTX but with the scarcity of ammo, I picked up the TC's at Walmart just to be safe. They shoot and load the same. They are 11 dollars for 15 = 33 dollars for 45.

I am on the fence about duplexing due to the complexity of it when reloading in the field under pressure if you know what I mean. My load seats tightly on the powder. I am gonna put my loaded rifle in the freezer for a few days next month and see how it shoots.
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#3373753 - 09/25/13 10:41 AM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
fullstream
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The 250 shockwave fit perfectly in my stalker without sizing. I'm gonna try the sst's.
I would love to hear how the 300exp shoots sabotless as this was an incredible bullet for the savage you now own ;\)

I tried a duplex load of 10/50 4759/n120 with the shockwaves sabotless & actually shot better with straight n120.


Edited by fullstream (09/25/13 10:45 AM)

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#3373758 - 09/25/13 10:49 AM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
Tenn.Guy
8 Point


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1884
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 Originally Posted By: CR500AFX
The 250 SST fits without resizing or knurling. I tried a 300 sst and it was too tight right before reaching the powder. I don't want to hammer it in. After measuring, the 300 SST is .0005 larger than the 250 SST. The 250 SST can be had at Walmart under the TC shockwave brand part number 8242 and the bonded version is 8245. The IMR 4198, for some reason in this gun, is more accurate and consistent.



Dumb question, but I've never shot sabotless... I assume if the bullet loads to hard you would just pull the breech plug and push it back out of the barrel?

I am considering trying sabotless in my Apex in the spring.

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#3373781 - 09/25/13 11:01 AM Re: conversion loads- [Re: Tenn.Guy]
SCAT
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Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 628
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

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Yes, it is best to leave the breach plug out when testing bullet fit. If you can push it all the way thru without beating it thru but with at least 30 pounds of force, you are good. Every bore is different so you will have to experiment. If they don't fit tight enough, just knurl between two files. I am using a wool wad that looks like a half inch diameter by three sixteenths fuzzy disc. It is said to keep out moisture and aide in sealing the charge upon firing.
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#3374014 - 09/25/13 01:41 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: SCAT]
smokeless74
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Registered: 05/23/13
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Take a fired 30-06 and .223 case to Advance Auto and get some valve covers that fit each case neck. Use the .223 case for booster and 30-06 case for main and tape them together. Makes for a quick duplex reload in the field.

If your satisfied with bullet fit and ignition then your good to go with a single.


Edited by smokeless74 (09/25/13 01:42 PM)

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#3374024 - 09/25/13 01:54 PM Re: conversion loads- [Re: smokeless74]
SCAT
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Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 628
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

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That's not a bad idea. I currently use a 270 case and a piece of round belt that we use on a conveyor at work to seal the case. We have a smaller belt that would likely squeeze into a 223 case. The 270 case holds 63gr of RL7 for my Savage too. Thanks for the tip. I may try it later in October.
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