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#332789 - 08/08/07 07:48 PM Feeding Deer
wcsd462
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 336
Loc: Wilson Co.

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RECENTLY I PICKED UP A COPY OF THE 2008 TENNESSEE HUNTING REGULATIONS, I DO LIKE THE NEW FORMAT WHICH IS DESIGNED FOR BETTER UNDERSTANDING, BUT THE ARTICLE ON FEEDING DEER DISAPPOINTED ME. I KNOW THIS SUBJECT IS AT THE CENTER OF NUMEROUS DEBATES AND WILL NEVER BE AGREED ON BY ALL SIDES, HUNTERS OR NON HUNTERS ALIKE.
THIS ARTICLE MADE OUT LIKE IF YOU FEED A DEER YOU WILL AUTOMATICALLY DOMESTICATE THE ANIMAL AND YOU WILL CAUSE UNREPEATAPLE DAMAGE TO THE ECOLOGY OF ALL WILDLIFE IN THAT AREA. THIS ARTICLE ALSO MENTIONED YOU COULD SPREAD DISEASE IF YOU FEED DEER. IF I AM CORRECT AND I MAY BE OFF ON THE NUMBERS BUT THEIR ARE TWENTY FOUR STATES THAT HAVE MADE IT LEGAL TO SUPPLEMENTAL FEED DEER, YES I SAID SUPPLEMENTAL FEED NOT BAITING. ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICAL IN QUESTION THEY HAVE DOOMED THEIR DEER HERD'S.
IN THE DAY AND AGE WE LIVE IN, WITH THE LOSS OF LAND DUE TO DEVELOPMENT AND CLEAR CUTTING FOR TIMBER, I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT IT IS GETTING HARD FOR ME TO FIND LAND WHERE THEIR ARE BIG OAK PATCHES TEAMING WITH ACORNS FALLING FROM EVERY TREE, WHICH BRINGS ME TO ANOTHER POINT, WE CAN HUNT OVER PLANTED FOOD PLOT'S AND OAK'S WITH ACORNS ON THE GROUND BUT WE CANT FEED OUT DEER HERDS A SUPPLEMENTAL FOOD SOURCE TO ENHAHCE THE QUALITY OF THE HERD,AND IF YOU DO YOU HAVE TO STAY AWAY FROM IT DURING HUNTING SEASON, OR IT HAS TO BE OFF THE GROUND FOR TEN DAYS PRYOR TO THE HUNT, THAT IS IF YOU DONT KILL YOUR ENTIRE HERD FROM CARBO OVERDOSE. I HAVE HUNTED STATES WERE IT IS LEGAL TO HUNT OVER FEEDERS AND LET ME TELL YOU IT IS NO DOVE SHOOT, THE DEER IS AS CAUTIOUS AT THE FEEDERS AS THEY ARE AT THE BIG OAK TREE MAYBE EVEN MORE.
THESE ARE MY OPINIONS AND THOUGHTS, I WOULD LIKE TO HERE YOURS

THANKS.
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#332867 - 08/08/07 08:45 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4260
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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I will be 100 percent honest with you,.. I AGREE.

BUT,.. the feeding of deer is dangerous. The spread of disease is highly increased when using supplemental feed. This is , if you get folks who do it incorrectly. There is a correct way of doing it and a very wrong way of doing it. BUT,.. done correctly in a wild deer herd ,. it can be very beneficial. BUT,.. its VERY expensive to do correctly. And this is were most folks would do more harm than good. They would cut corners and put the herd at risk. For this reason,.. i do not recommend supplemental feeding as a food source for deer in TN.

I could care less about the ethics of hunting over it. I believe it should be a choice for each individual hunter. The reason its illegal in TN during hunting season is up in the air. Some say its because hunters don't want it. I say them hunters don't want it because they hunt over corn now and don't want everyone else doing it also to take away their advantage. BUT,.. keep in mind. Its only illegal during season. I know folks who have successful supplemental feed programs in the off season and incorporate a food plot program for hunting season.

Thats my opinion though........
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#332912 - 08/08/07 09:12 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: deerchaser007]
InfoMan
TWRA Information Officer
10 Point


Registered: 11/25/02
Posts: 3819
Loc: Morristown, TN

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I'm sorry, let me waste my breath. I have been reading where people are finding dead deer near water...EHD. Common situation in scattered areas across the state in the fall. EHD is spread from animal to animal by biting midges (flies). The more concentrated the deer are, the easier it is for midges to go from deer to deer. Artificial concentrates deer.

What would you say about feeding? good or bad

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#332916 - 08/08/07 09:15 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: deerchaser007]
Darkthirty II
6 Point


Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 534

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Well, coming from a state that allows baiting, I've done it and still do it on my land in NC, I have no tame deer running around (wish I did) and none appear sickly, so I have a hard time agreeing with some of that. There probally is a high liklihood of spreading disease in areas such as up north, where deer gather in huge numbers during the winter, but here and in NC, the deer have no need to.
To me it seems that having a salt lick in the ground where the deer are constantly eating and licking dirt, would be more harmful, as far as picking up parasites and such. Not against this practice, just don't see much difference. Everyone has their opinions on this, but its similar to anti-gun people knowing everything about firearms, how can you say whats good or bad, when you have never done it or experienced it.

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#333241 - 08/09/07 07:43 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Darkthirty II]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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...I have no tame deer running around (wish I did)...

I have domesticated cattle in my backyard, but they are nowhere near "tame." They are very wary of people and won't let you get anywhere near them, but they are still domesticated.


...and none appear sickly,...

How would you know a deer is sick unless it was stumbling around? Can you look at a person and tell they have the early stages of a disease? Many diseases show little outward symptoms until the deer is at death's door. I've read of many case of fairly substantial deer die-offs and not a single local hunter noticed.


To me it seems that having a salt lick in the ground where the deer are constantly eating and licking dirt, would be more harmful, as far as picking up parasites and such.

That is a concern, but primarily for CWD transmission. The high salt content of the salt lick and salt saturated soil will kill any infectious organism (the salt ruptures their cell walls causing massive dehydration of the organism). However, the infectious agent of CWD (prion) is not a living thing, and some genetic research indicates the high salt environment may actually strengthen the prion. If I was working in a CWD area, I would definitely remove any non-natural salt licks.
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#333434 - 08/09/07 10:21 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
Darkthirty II
6 Point


Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 534

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Maybe I'm just hunting in an area where there are so many deer, that large die offs from feeding are'nt noticed. Its widely accepted practice where I hunt, and I have never seen it make a difference in the health of the herd. We have places where we put out 100 lbs every 2 days during hunting season, and have been doing it for years at the same spot, same story every season,good bow hunting but then the gigs up and they are strictly nocturnal. Except for the bucks that come by during the daylight to check for does, or their is a strong front coming in that gets all critters, not just deer to stirring.
I'm sure there are instances where deer become accustomed to feeding, but I have never seen it. And myself and the group I hunt with, hunt a lot of separate places and land. Probally average 1000lbs a week in hunting season.
I am not disputing the disease factors, I personally just have never seen it, and until the numbers start reflecting the findings, I will continue to do so. Don't mean to start a war of words, thats just the way I see it.

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#333488 - 08/09/07 10:55 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Darkthirty II]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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Darkthirty II,

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we are producing large-scale die-offs at the present time from feeding. However, those who feed are ABSOLUTELY opening the door to massive spread of contagious disease.

I always hate broaching this subject because nothing makes hunters madder than hinting or outright stating that they don't know what their talking about. Experienced hunters generally pride themselves on their powers of keen observation, and they believe what they see above all other things. But as a professional manger of deer that has worked just about everywhere across the eastern US, I can tell you I rarely, rarely meet hunters/landowners who really have any idea what is going on with their local deer herd. They simply don't realize that health problems in deer herds are not easily observed. Heck, I work with deer for a living and I can't look at deer in a field and tell if they are healthy or not. I need to inspect internal organs and body condition to make that determination. I wish I had a dollar for every time a landowner told me his deer herd and habitat were in great shape, yet I could see the massive habitat degradation from deer over-browsing when I pulled up to his/her front gate.

In addition, I can state case after case of known major deer die-offs in various locations around the U.S. that were never reported by a single hunter. A third of the deer population died-off in a single summer and not one hunter reported finding a dead deer and not a single hunter reported lower than average deer sightings that hunting season.

All I can tell you is that in a talk that the head of the Southeast Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study group gave a few years ago, he stated that the two greatest threats to wildlife in the U.S. are: 1) the translocation of wildlife (the moving of wildlife from one area of the country to another--such as the legal and illegal trade in "breeder animals"); and 2) the artificial feeding of wildlife. Numerous infectious diseases exist that will rapidly spread at feeder sites, which has occurred repeatedly in the North. But what is even more worrisome is the potential for new, never before seen contagious diseases to develop. And this is much more of a threat than most realize. Diseases mutate incredibly rapidly. Every year the flu that goes around is a different variety of flu. It mutates annually to the point that last year's flu vaccine is not effective against this year's variety of flu. Nature abhors a vacuum. If a biological system will allow for the rapid spread of contagious disease yet no disease exists, a contagious disease will eventually develop. Maybe not this year, next year or in ten years, but a contagious disease WILL develop (see the Black Death in Medieval times). And as of the talk I heard given by the Disease Study head, he mentioned two new wildlife disease in deer that have been recently observed but could not be identified as any known disease. And not surprisingly, these new diseases were only appearing in the Southeast in states/areas that allowed baiting. As soon as you left the regions that allowed baiting, those diseases disappeared from the herds.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#333656 - 08/09/07 12:57 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point


Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6617
Loc: Nashville

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wcsd-

It's understood that the overall risk of disease (in deer) is probably very small, but the positive impacts of supplemental feeding is even smaller than that. We are simply trying to get people to understand that they are simply rolling the dice to get little or no return on their effort. So why would people take that risk?

FYI - I put (in deer) in parantheses on purpose. All too often people focus on a target species not realizing the impacts on non-target species (birds and furbearers especially can be negatively impacted). Disease risks multiply when you consider all the other wildlife as a whole. That's why our focus should be on habitats and not individual species. Improved habitats will benefit all species out there that occupy that niche.


Edited by BigGameGuy (08/09/07 12:58 PM)
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#333671 - 08/09/07 01:23 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BigGameGuy]
TOW
10 Point


Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 4252
Loc: Back 40

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http://wildlife1.usask.ca/wildlife_health_topics/wildlife_baiting.pdf
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#333681 - 08/09/07 01:31 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BigGameGuy]
Slaughter-06
14 Point


Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 8232
Loc: Dyersburg,Tn.

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If you just have to feed, what if you broadcast the grain over a large area, put it in a spreader and keep moving on down the road or field. just like it being in a 200 ac cut corn field if you spread it out you don't congregate the deer. would this not be a good solution to feeding game.
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#333692 - 08/09/07 01:45 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Slaughter-06]
Barrett
formerly bad_deer24
12 Point


Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6888
Loc: Nolensville, TN

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Dude, turn your caps lock off. That gave me a headache trying to read it \:D
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#333773 - 08/09/07 02:57 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Slaughter-06]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65575
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Slaughter-06,

Remember the risk of aflatoxin in the summer-time (if you are feeding corn in the summer). You could literally be desimating your adult turkey population. Aflatoxin is deadly to turkeys at only 20 parts per billion, and the "deer corn" sold at local stores generally contains 20 parts per billion of aflatoxin.

Also remember corn has little benefit to deer in summer. They do not need "energy foods" in summer, yet corn is such a "candy" to deer, they will eat corn instead of what their bodies need, which is proteins.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#334093 - 08/09/07 06:04 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Slaughter-06]
ol 'rube
8 Point


Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 1828
Loc: goodlettsville

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this is going to b bad
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#334146 - 08/09/07 06:56 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: ]
Darkthirty II
6 Point


Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 534

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10-4 over and out. Bait'em up and cut'em all!!
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#334490 - 08/09/07 10:24 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Slaughter-06]
Team Browning
8 Point


Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2279
Loc: Chattanooga

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how about not feeding them? do people not read what the people who work with wild game for a living write? and I love the argument of - well ive never seen it so it must not exist and i wont stop doing something until every deer falls over dead and 4 out of 5 biologists agree what the cause was.
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#334649 - 08/10/07 12:48 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BigGameGuy]
156p&y
10 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 4237
Loc: Franklin Tn

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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Improved habitats will benefit all species out there that occupy that niche.


BGG or anyone else...doesn't artificial feeding cause severe damage to native habitat? I've been trying to educate myself much more on the aspects of feeding and found a study the other day that kinda explained it. Supplemental feeding in a general area around the feed sight would cause severe damage to native browse. Deer are random browsers and when a bait sight is established they focus on this location eliminating their natural pattern of random browsing. The plant life in the study responded very negatively without being browsed upon, and took a considerable amount of time to recover even after the bait sight was removed. I didn't read a whole bunch on it but plan on looking more into it. Any short summaries or any insight into this would be greatly appreciated.

From what I've learned the last few months about the impacts we can cause from feeding, to me it's a no brainer. Why do it? If you work your butt off on food plots and trying to do things that benefit your local wildlife why reverse what you've just tried to accomplish by feeding.
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#334750 - 08/10/07 07:10 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: 156p&y]
wcsd462
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 336
Loc: Wilson Co.

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Thanks for all the replies, My motovation for posting was to see the general opinion of the members. I, like a lot of you hunt my own land, it is a fifty acre track that is half fields and half wooded, the timber was cut pryor to me buying it so I dont have the oak's that I would like to have. when I bought the property the fields were grown up with weed's and saplings,the only thing the deer had to eat was a few honeysuckles. I was seeing a few deer, mostly small does and scrub bucks. Once I cleaned up the feild's I put in about eight acres of food plot's and put in a couple of mineral stations,I also put out a couple feeders, one with protein and one with corn. I took several does and cull bucks the first couple years. After the third year I really started seeing results, the does looked bigger the fawn numbers went up and I started seeing better bucks. I realized that I was drawing the bucks off the adjacent properties. The down side to this was when it gets close to season I have to take the feeders out of the wood's and the deer go else where, properties where their are still oaks, and I dont see them again untill the rut begins, then I start seeing a few bucks crusing threw. On my property I only try take a buck that has eight points or better, which is still few and far between ,I still take the occasional doe, if they leave my property they are free game, I dont know how many times I have watched a small buck cross the fence and a few minutes later a gun shot goes off.
Which leads me to the point I have been attempting to make, I have seen the results first hand what feeding can do if done right, along with habitat restoration, I wish the T.W.R.A would leave it up to the land owner, that owns the land to manage the land as he see's fit. Properties compete for deer, and when you dont have the tools too compete you loose.
Thanks again.
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#334778 - 08/10/07 07:26 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Slaughter-06]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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texas has been quality deer manageing for decades, feeding deer included. they do not have any problems with their herd. many states would love to have a herd like texas. i am doing all i can to improve the habitat on my land. i have planted sawtooth oaks,apple,pear and plum trees. i have planted autum olives for cover and food burning bushes for feed and i have a couple of acears of food plots witch i plant in beans and oats. by all acounts i am baitng deer, but by these means it is leagle. i have no problem with somebody feeding corn. we are running out of land for wildlife, what little remains must be maximized. oh by the way i just got my soil tests back, my ph is 5.4 the soil tester i bought at lowes said 6.5, so much for the cheap soil tester. have to spread more lime, fun fun fun.
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#334806 - 08/10/07 07:42 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Team Browning]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65575
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Team Browning
how about not feeding them? do people not read what the people who work with wild game for a living write? and I love the argument of - well ive never seen it so it must not exist and i wont stop doing something until every deer falls over dead and 4 out of 5 biologists agree what the cause was.


It's just human nature Team Browning. People are going to do whatever they feel will give them the best chance of killing the deer they want to kill, no matter the consequences. And they will use any argument, even illogical ones, to justify their actions.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#334933 - 08/10/07 09:24 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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i do read what read what the people who work with them say. some state biolagist say in is no good some sy it is ok. just about all of the private land game biologist say it is very important to give your deer additionl feed for max herd helth, what do you think on global warming.
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#335042 - 08/10/07 10:46 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65575
Loc: Nashville, TN

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some state biolagist say in is no good some sy it is ok. just about all of the private land game biologist say it is very important to give your deer additionl feed for max herd helth,


That would not be an accurate statement. Any private land biologists worth their salt will have read the best research available and realize the dangers of supplemental feeding. There's a huge difference between feeding deer supplemental feed from a feeder and providing the best nutrition possible through improving the habitat. One is natural while the other is highly unnatural. Unnatural processes WILL come back to burn us. I guarantee it.

No offense to any state or private biologist, but there is a big difference between someone who has a degree in wildlife biology and those biologist that are involved in research. There were many, many biologist who believed Traditional Management was the best and only way to manage deer until research biologists recently proved them wrong.

The very best research not only shows the benefits that can be achieved through supplemental feeding, but also the very negative consequences of supplemental feeding. It's a double-edged sword. It can help AND hurt, and from my perspective it's the long-term "hurt" that is more important than the short-term "help."



...what do you think on global warming.

As I degreed Meteorologist and Earth Scientist I can tell you that the Earth's climate is always in a state of flux. It is either warming or cooling and rarely stays stable. The geologic history of our planet is one of continuous major swings in climate, all without the influence of the hand of man, and the planet has had about 3.9 billion years of history to prove that the system cannot "tip" too far either direction--eventually the system balances itself.

Is our climate warming? Might be, but the data isn't conclusive yet. However, it will certainly be warming or cooling over time. It rarely stays stable. Are we humans the cause of any major, long-term shifts in climate? Highly, highly unlikely. From what we know of the Earth's history, we do know that radical differences in atmospheric chemistry does significantly effect the climate. However, the term "radical" is critical. The changes we humans are making in atmospheric chemistry are very, very minor. In addition, carbon dioxide is a "greenhouse gas", but it is actually a weak one. Water vapor and methane are much more powerful greenhouse gases. Besides, some of the theoretical changes that would occur in a "greenhouse effect" situation are not being observed. In essence, they aren't occurring.

However, what we do know about the climate is that ocean currents are a major driving force. Even minor, short-term changes in ocean currents and temperatures produce world-wide climate effects (see "El Nino"), and these ocean current induced climate changes occur in predictable patterns. The same cannot be said of atmospheric chemistry induced climate changes. Not a single global climate model has ever been correct from one year to the next, let alone predictions for decades or centuries into the future.


_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#335066 - 08/10/07 11:18 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: ]
Team Browning
8 Point


Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2279
Loc: Chattanooga

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If I believed everything I read I'd never leave the house. lol [/quote]


Now there is something we can and do agree on 89!
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#335127 - 08/10/07 12:14 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Team Browning]
Darkthirty II
6 Point


Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 534

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I get the feeling that this will never be settled, of all my years i have hunted and been around those that baited...uh i mean supplemented feeding programs. I'm yet to see it, therefore it may be selfish, but I am not alone. If my state allows it, and there are continuously growing numbers of deer or stabilized herds, then they must know something. If I saw it as something detrimental to the herd, then I would rethink the situation, but as for right now we can simply agree to disagree.
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#335190 - 08/10/07 12:48 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Darkthirty II]
TOW
10 Point


Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 4252
Loc: Back 40

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How in the world did all those deer survive without supplemental feeding and food plots for all those years prior to us helping them out?

If we never fed them or planted food plots the deer would do just fine.

Feeders and food plots to me is for one thing - attracting and holding deer on certain properties - in order to hunt them.

Nothing wrong with that persay, but lets call it what it is.
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#335381 - 08/10/07 02:58 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: ]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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lots of emosions here.i am not look for a fight. i am a lover my wife is the fighter, she has been in the airforce for 17 years. i have planted trees shrubs and food plots for two reasons, grow bigger deer and kill more bigger deer.
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#335432 - 08/10/07 03:22 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: brier rabbit]
kevin mays
4 Point


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 124
Loc: knoxville

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We grow our own corn. We feed. We feed corn. In a feeder and in the field. We leave 120 acres of corn standing not to mention our other plots we have. Sunflowers, millets, soy beans, peas, buckwheat. We also use troph rocks and other minerals.

Supplemental feedings have been horrible on our deer herd look at the pics below.










As you guys can see these deer are going to kick over any minute from malnutrition and disease so you shouldnt ever supplement your herd cause they might end up looking like this!!!!!!!

Now if you want to see what alot of ducks look like we got that too. Click here for the video. Its worth the wait.

http://www.arkansashuntingproperty.com/Duckvideo.html


Here is a still pic from the video



We winter 250,000 mallards on our place and last year they ate about 1,000,000 lbs of corn on our place.

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#335543 - 08/10/07 04:09 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: kevin mays]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 130
Loc: sumner tn

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i hope my deer become as sick as yours.
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#335583 - 08/10/07 04:23 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: brier rabbit]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
16 Point


Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 11122
Loc: NC Piedmonts

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I don't believe smoking contributes to emphysema. My buddy smoked for a couple years when we were teenagers, and he doesn't have it 30 years later.

Folks, anecdotal evidence doesn't mean squat.
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#336175 - 08/10/07 10:39 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: brier rabbit]
wcsd462
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 336
Loc: Wilson Co.

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Kevin.....NICE pic's!
I dont see the difference either, they are eating together whether at a feeder or in a corn field.
As dry as it is in Tennessee right now wouldnt this be the time for feeding? Everything else has burned up.
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Poplar Hill Kennel's
Home of :
SqCh Curtis' 6-Gun Boggs Creek Shooter
NtCh GrSqCh Poplar Hill Hunter

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#336306 - 08/11/07 06:23 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65575
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Kevin,

Feeding corn doesn't grow big deer. Protein grows bigger deer.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#336308 - 08/11/07 06:37 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65575
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: wcsd462
Kevin.....NICE pic's!
I dont see the difference either, they are eating together whether at a feeder or in a corn field.
As dry as it is in Tennessee right now wouldnt this be the time for feeding? Everything else has burned up.


Deer eat at a feeder and feed in a field or on acorns in a different manner. In natural feeding situations, deer are not puting their mouths in the same places. Feeders spread disease--proven fact.

This drought has been a perfect example of why food plots aren't the answer for providing a local deer herd's nutritional intake. Food plots fail in droughts. Yet the natural habitat does not. Native plants are naturally drought tolerant. My food plots are all brown and dead, but the weeds growing right next to the plots are in fantastic shape and show little signs of drought effects. And the deer are pounding them, as they should. Feed your deer with the native habitat. Use food plots to provide higher-quality foods that what naturally exist. Never expect to "carry" a deer herd with food plots.
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#336309 - 08/11/07 06:43 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: brier rabbit]
BSK
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Dark Thirty II wrote:
If my state allows it, and there are continuously growing numbers of deer or stabilized herds, then they must know something.

State allow baiting/feeding because hunters demand it and/or politicians demand it (due to hunter pressure), not because it is good for the deer. And most states that allow baiting are rethinking that policy due to health concerns.


If I saw it as something detrimental to the herd, then I would rethink the situation,...

Are you sure about that? I can give you scientific proof it is detrimental, but I strongly suspect you would ignore that. We humans have a bad habitat of looking for the quick and easy route to whatever we want to acheive, and will ignore or refute anything that stands in our way.


...but as for right now we can simply agree to disagree.

I can live with that.

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#336310 - 08/11/07 06:43 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
BSK
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Good post Greg.
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#336319 - 08/11/07 07:18 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
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Good post Greg.





This buck was grown without kernal number one fed to him, so it must prove feeding doesn't work. Right?

Bottom line, there is a wealth of information that shows the negatives aspects of supplemental feeding in wild animals. Can anyone present any scientific evidence that shows it's a beneficial practice in a wild herd?



Edited by BigGameGuy (08/11/07 08:30 AM)
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#336428 - 08/11/07 09:12 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
wskp1
4 Point


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Blah, Blah, Blah, I have a degree in this and that and know everything. Good thing your arms are long to pat yourself on the back all day! I have a house of 7 and a degree in "If it's brown it's down"! Feed'em , grow'em, clean'em and eat'em.
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#336789 - 08/11/07 06:46 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
Bob S
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Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 185
Loc: Saginaw, Michigan

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Dark Thirty II wrote:
If my state allows it, and there are continuously growing numbers of deer or stabilized herds, then they must know something.

State allow baiting/feeding because hunters demand it and/or politicians demand it (due to hunter pressure), not because it is good for the deer.

BSK is right again. Michigan has a 2 gallon limit on bait piles. According to DNR big game specialist Rod Clute, the 2 gallon limit is a good compromise between those who want bait banned, and those who want to dump a pick-up load in the woods. Michigan does not have a 2 gallon limit because it is good for the deer. Michigan has a 2 gallon limit because that keeps the least number of hunters from complaining.
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#337034 - 08/11/07 10:20 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Bob S]
wcsd462
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 336
Loc: Wilson Co.

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BSK
I do agree that natural habitat is an important factor in managing, holding and killing big deer, but if you dont have the right natural habitat I think it should be up to the land owner not the goverment to do what he thinks will work best for his land,whether it is re planting tree's that were logged or planting native brows or even puttng out feeder's. I only have about six oak tree's on my property due to logging,{This was done pryor to me buying it}. In the past couple of years the oaks I do have have not produced so the deer dont hang around becouse the neighbors do have oak's, so in order to compete I feed, I put in food plots,minerals stations I even did some burning to try to promote the groth of natural vegetation. If their was anything else to do I would do that to. The name of the game for me is to hold as many deer on my property as I can to keep the trigger happy neighbors from killing every thing that moves. Age is the first key in killing big deer, second is genetics,{cast do anything about that} third is nutrition, that is where I can help out and at the same time I may see more deer while I am hunting hell I may even help grow the buck of my lifetime.
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#337058 - 08/11/07 10:37 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
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wcsd462,.. you need to plant some sawtooth oaks. Sawtooth's will produce acorns in 6 to 8 years. This will give you a jumpstart back to acorns for the deer.
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#337064 - 08/11/07 10:45 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: deerchaser007]
wcsd462
4 Point


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Thanks deerchaser007
Way ahead of ya. planted a dozen three years ago.
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#337067 - 08/11/07 10:48 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
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Off topic ,.. how is yours doing?? I planted 3 years ago also and have some looking good,.. some not grown much at all.
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#337080 - 08/11/07 10:55 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: deerchaser007]
wcsd462
4 Point


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I dont know that much about them, but their about 4 1/2 feet tall now. 4 or 5 didnt make it, they ended up buck rub's, ironic I guess.
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#337174 - 08/12/07 08:48 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
brier rabbit
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wcsd462
iagree withyou on planting for wildlife, i think it is very important. as i have stated before i have planted many types of plants. the sawtooth oaks need lots of sunlight or they will not produce acorns, also they must be planted close together so they will pollonate. other plants you may want to plant are burning bush it also is an asian plant thay is related to out hearts a busting bush, deer love to eat the hell out of it. autaum olives bushes are good brows and cover. mullberry bushes are also eaten by deer. by planting these typesof plants you wil provid year round food.

ps i have two swatooths that are over 13 feet tall, hoping maybe to have acorns nest year. oh and by the way, sawtooths start dropping acorns in mid sept.

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#337294 - 08/12/07 10:19 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wskp1]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: wskp1
Blah, Blah, Blah, I have a degree in this and that and know everything. Good thing your arms are long to pat yourself on the back all day! I have a house of 7 and a degree in "If it's brown it's down"! Feed'em , grow'em, clean'em and eat'em.


Then why are you posting in a QDM Forum? QDM is not about "If it's brown it's down." Please limit your posts to the appropriate forum.
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#337340 - 08/12/07 10:38 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
wcsd462
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If it's brown it's down..... That makes as much sense as,Shoot a fawn pick a spot.
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#337415 - 08/12/07 11:55 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
Anderson
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Registered: 02/18/06
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BSK,

I don't know why we torture ourselves with discussions on feeding deer, but here we are again!

I don't really agree with the comment from page 1 on salt in soil:

"The high salt content of the salt lick and salt saturated soil will kill any infectious organism (the salt ruptures their cell walls causing massive dehydration of the organism)."

Here's why I disagree. Each organism will have a threshold of salt that it can tolerate. Right under the salt pile (or Trophy Rock of course) the soil will be very high in salt and likely kill any organism there (though I don't know that for sure). Agreed. But as you move farther from the source, the concentration of salt will decrease. At some point of distance away from the salt, there will be a zone in which the salt content in the soil is not strong enough to kill a given 'germ' (TB or BlueTongue or brucellosis or whatever). And yet it may be just a few feet away, so deer are still concentrated there. At some point, there is still some risk. Maybe less risk than a feed pile. Some organisms, such as coccidia, go into a very tough cyst form that will endure all sorts of torture for long periods of time.
My two cents, anyway. I'm not condemning salt feeding, just thought I'd offer the comments for clarification or discussion.
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#337446 - 08/12/07 12:10 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Darkthirty II]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
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wcsd...In an ideal setup land management practices would incorporate both food sources and available cover. One without the other will certainly put meat on the table but they do directly benefit one another. I have hunted a sizeable property where food sources were outstanding and yet we didn't have much cover. Prior to deer season we "held" alot of deer. Even after season started the deer utilized our property heavily but increasingly into the season that usage was nocturnal. That could be expected simply because of hunting pressure but the deer sought out heavier cover thus moving them off our property during shooting hours. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't know that food sources alone is the best criteria for a hunting situation. Do you incorporate any sanctuaries?
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#338530 - 08/12/07 09:57 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Mike Belt]
156p&y
10 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 4237
Loc: Franklin Tn

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
wcsd...In an ideal setup land management practices would incorporate both food sources and available cover. One without the other will certainly put meat on the table but they do directly benefit one another. I have hunted a sizeable property where food sources were outstanding and yet we didn't have much cover. Prior to deer season we "held" alot of deer. Even after season started the deer utilized our property heavily but increasingly into the season that usage was nocturnal. That could be expected simply because of hunting pressure but the deer sought out heavier cover thus moving them off our property during shooting hours. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't know that food sources alone is the best criteria for a hunting situation.


The same thing I see every year. We have a tough time holding the deer but really can only do so much for cover since the owner doesn't want any trees taken down.
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#338709 - 08/13/07 04:57 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: 156p&y]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
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Loc: Tennessee

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Feed wild animals.

Make them healthy.

Herd increases in size and carrying capacity of land is artificially increased...temporarily.

Stop feeding animals articicially...(i.e. supplemental feeding)

Animals die...

102


Edited by 102 (08/13/07 04:58 AM)
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#338719 - 08/13/07 05:24 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: 102]
wcsd462
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/06
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Mike
I have only 50 acres to play with, but I have set aside about a 5 acre track that is a cedar thicket that I stay away from.
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#339065 - 08/13/07 09:50 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
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Registered: 08/24/04
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 Originally Posted By: wcsd462
Age is the first key in killing big deer, second is genetics,{cast do anything about that} third is nutrition, that is where I can help out and at the same time I may see more deer while I am hunting hell I may even help grow the buck of my lifetime.

Age and nutrition are going to be more important than genetics for big/healthy deer. So are keeping the deer within the carrying capacity of the land and having good sex ratios and age structures.
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#339133 - 08/13/07 11:03 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Greg .]
BSK
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As I mentioned previously, I hate discussing this topic.

People are going to do whatever they want to do, regardless of "the facts." Even when they understand that smoking absolutely shortens your life and gives you a 50/50 chance of developing smoking related cancer, they will still smoke.

It doesn't matter how clear it is that obesity shortens life-spans and is one of the leading causes of destructive maladies like heart disease and diabetes, people are still going to over-eat and get fat.

No matter how often you point out that feeding wildlife has been proven to cause devastating disease outbreaks that destroy local economies (see the cattle industry of MI due to the spread of bovine tuberculosis by artificial feeding of deer), and cause inumerable other wildlife and habitat related damage, they are still going to feed deer.

People are always going to take what they believe to be the easy route to accomplish what they want, even if the "easy route" is dangerous and when much safer yet more long-term alternatives exist. We want want we want, and we want it now, future be damned.
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#339282 - 08/13/07 01:11 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: ]
brier rabbit
4 Point


Registered: 07/22/07
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89montero

what kind protein pellets are you feeding. i have tried a few but the deer did not seem to like it, just rotted.

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#339299 - 08/13/07 01:28 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
Greg .
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Well said, Bryan.

I was going to type something along the lines of you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink. Thanks for all the good info.

But that's the way folks are. I reckon it stems from some sort of survival mechanism -- expend the least amount of energy and get things NOW, for there may not be a tomorrow. Maybe that's why some folks' finances are in such a mess, too. ;\)
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#339324 - 08/13/07 01:51 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Greg .]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Absolutely Greg. Our ability to always find the quickest route to the desired result/goal is what has made us such a successful species. As far as we know, we are the only animal capable of reasoning through a problem before we act. All other animals learn by trial and error.
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#343222 - 08/15/07 09:28 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: wcsd462
BSK
I do agree that natural habitat is an important factor in managing, holding and killing big deer, but if you dont have the right natural habitat I think it should be up to the land owner not the goverment to do what he thinks will work best for his land,whether it is re planting tree's that were logged or planting native brows or even puttng out feeder's. I only have about six oak tree's on my property due to logging,{This was done pryor to me buying it}. In the past couple of years the oaks I do have have not produced so the deer dont hang around becouse the neighbors do have oak's, so in order to compete I feed, I put in food plots,minerals stations I even did some burning to try to promote the groth of natural vegetation. If their was anything else to do I would do that to. The name of the game for me is to hold as many deer on my property as I can to keep the trigger happy neighbors from killing every thing that moves. Age is the first key in killing big deer, second is genetics,{cast do anything about that} third is nutrition, that is where I can help out and at the same time I may see more deer while I am hunting hell I may even help grow the buck of my lifetime.


wcsd462,

I somewhat agree with you. Landowners and hunters should do all they can to improve the necessary resources for wildlife on their properties. However, that should be done in the safest manner possible. Now even improving the habitat has its risks, potentially producing over-population problems that carry their own unique risks. But the artificial feeding of wildlife out of trough or feeders is pushing the risk too far. The Southeast Wildlife Disease Study Group lists artificial feeding as one of the two greatest threats to wildlife in America today. Artificial feeding has been PROVEN to produce devistating disease outbreaks. Studies done in NC found that half of all bait/feeder sites tested showed levels of aflatoxin contamination high enough to cause significant poisoning of wildlife. The Southeast Wildlife Disease Study Group is finding new and unknown diseases appearing in areas where feeding/baiting is legal, but those diseases are not being seen where feeding/baiting is illegal.

The artificial feeding of deer from troughs/feeders is simply a very, very bad idea biologically. Now I'm not saying that improving the habitat doesn't have it's risks too, as it does. Increased deer densities that often result from improved habitat does increase the risk of spreading contagious diseases, as there are more deer inhabitating the same area. But the close contact that occurs at feeders and bait sites is unlike what occurs in natural feeding situations, hence GREATLY increases the risk of disease transmission.
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#343625 - 08/15/07 01:11 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19383
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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BSK, truer words never spoken.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
As I mentioned previously, I hate discussing this topic.

People are going to do whatever they want to do, regardless of "the facts." Even when they understand that smoking absolutely shortens your life and gives you a 50/50 chance of developing smoking related cancer, they will still smoke.

No matter how often you point out that feeding wildlife has been proven to cause devastating disease outbreaks that destroy local economies (see the cattle industry of MI due to the spread of bovine tuberculosis by artificial feeding of deer), and cause inumerable other wildlife and habitat related damage, they are still going to feed deer.

People are always going to take what they believe to be the easy route to accomplish what they want, even if the "easy route" is dangerous and when much safer yet more long-term alternatives exist. We want want we want, and we want it now, future be damned.


I have previously stayed out of this, and on one hand I wish I had time to address some of this in more detail. But on the other hand, "What's the point"? If you guys are unwilling to listen to experts in the field like BSK and BigGameGuy, then you surely could care less what I know about this subject.

But I will add a small two cents.

I have attended some Southeast Deer Study Group meetings where the facts on supplemental feeding were simply shocking to me. And they were the facts, not what people "want" to believe.

Knowing what I know, I would simply be scared to death now to do any supplemental feeding of corn in Tennessee. It is simply not worth the risks. (I'm talking from a feeder, not growing it in a field, as I see little risk in growing it and leaving it for wildlife. There is also little risk in feeding corn in Texas, but different story in Tennessee.)

Although I didn't realize what was happening at the time, I am now convinced I wiped out the turkey population in a large area of Stewart County by legally feeding some corn during the summer months. My best estimate is I killed about 80 adult turkeys, and no telling how many young poults. All it takes is one kernel of bad corn to kill a full-grown old gobbler. What I lost in turkeys far negated any additional deer pics I might have obtained by feeding corn. And I have no way of knowing how many young deer were killed by that same corn --- young deer are the most susceptible ---- and there will be absolutely no evidence to show they died ---- no bones, no nothing.

But aside from killing turkeys and young deer by "bad" corn, the next most relavant damage many hunters should fear is stunting antler growth ---- feeding corn in the summer will stunt antler growth. This doesn't mean the otherwise healthy deer will not grow nice antlers ---- it just means they would have been yet larger had you not been feeding them corn. Deer that are being supplementally fed corn during the antler-growing period will consequently eat less other stuff that's more important for growing larger antlers ---- protein --- the protein found in naturally growing native forbs (broadleaf weeds like ragweed) and clovers.

Think about it.
If you fill up on candy right before dinner, will you be inclined to eat less of the healthy food available for dinner?
That's what happens when you supplementally feed deer corn during the summer: They eat more carbs, and less protein.

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#343640 - 08/15/07 01:19 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
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 Quote:
---- and there will be absolutely no evidence to show they died ---- no bones, no nothing.
Wes, I agree feeding is not a good idea, but would you explain your above statement. I have yet to ever see something die and then vanish in to thin air! Does the deer fairy suck these aflotoxin deer up at death and take care of the carcass??? LOL

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#343705 - 08/15/07 01:39 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Wes Parrish]
wcsd462
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 336
Loc: Wilson Co.

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BSK/Wes
Ok... Since I dont know everything, and I like to keep an open mind on things tell me, what causes these problems? Are these diseases caused by what Wes called "bad corn" or are they something that deer just get and then spread when the infected animal comes in contact with another deer. What is bad corn or bad feed? I do know It doesnt need to lay on the groung and rot.
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#343739 - 08/15/07 01:51 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Winchester]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
16 Point


Registered: 08/24/04
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Winchester,

The point Wes is making is to head off the "if I don't find deer carcasses, they're not dying" argument. We KNOW deer die out in the woods all year long, but how many deer skeletons do we find? The answer is hardly any.

I'm still amazed at how many of those horses refuse to drink.
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#345354 - 08/16/07 07:26 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Winchester]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
 Quote:
---- and there will be absolutely no evidence to show they died ---- no bones, no nothing.
Wes, I agree feeding is not a good idea, but would you explain your above statement. I have yet to ever see something die and then vanish in to thin air! Does the deer fairy suck these aflotoxin deer up at death and take care of the carcass??? LOL


Winchester,

When it comes to young deer, especially fawns, they can die in extraordinary numbers, yet their bodies are so small and the skeletons so under-developed that they rot away and are consumed so completely be scavengers that rarely will anyone find a dead fawn carcass.

Think about this: fawn mortality studies across the Southeast will come up with a wide range of numbers, but the average between all these studies is around 50%. That means that half of all fawns born die before hunting season every year. In all your years of hunting/scouting how many dead fawns have you found? At 30 deer per square mile, 7-10 fawns die per square mile every summer every year. If you have been hunting for 20 years, that's almost 200 dead fawns per square mile over that time-frame, yet how many of those have you found dead? I work in the woods 3-4 days per week all year round and have done so for almost 10 years, but I can count on one hand the number of dead fawns I've found.

We had a project in westcentral GA where the deer were extremely over-populated and the herd was very unhealthy. Fawn survival was extremely low. Fetal counts from harvested does showed the average doe late in preganancy was carrying on average 1.3 fetuses. That means, for every 10 does, 13 fawns were being born. Yet fawn recruitment was only 10% (by hunting season there was only 1 surviving fawn per every 10 does). 12 of every 13 fawns born each year would die before October, yet you could walk around this park-like property (the browse-line was so severe you could see 200 yards through the woods in summertime) and never find a dead fawn. That is until we did some controlled burning. Once all the leaf litter had been burned away, they ground was absolutely covered in little bits and pieces of fawn bones.

In West Virgian a few years ago, a couple of locations experienced an HD die-off that killed 30% of the entire deer herd (and those parts of West Virginia have fairly high deer densities). Yet not a single person called to report a dead deer. Not a single person noticed this major die-off other than some field biologists.

Deer can die in amazing numbers and no one will notice. Scavengers are amazingly effecient at cleaning up Nature's excess.
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#345393 - 08/16/07 07:48 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: wcsd462
BSK/Wes
Ok... Since I dont know everything, and I like to keep an open mind on things tell me, what causes these problems? Are these diseases caused by what Wes called "bad corn" or are they something that deer just get and then spread when the infected animal comes in contact with another deer. What is bad corn or bad feed? I do know It doesnt need to lay on the groung and rot.


wcsd462,

Two different problems were talking about here. The first is contagious disease transmission at feeder sites. Infectious organisms (bacteria and viruses) generally will not live long outside of the host's (infected animal's) body. Another animal must place it's nose/mouth/eyes on that infectious organism fairly quickly (hours) to become infected.

When deer feed naturally, they do not place their mouths on the same food source in rapid succession. As a group of deer feed, they spread out and each deer bites off just the best part of a particular plant. Since the best part of that particular twig/plant has already been eaten, other deer in the group will not feed on that plant, reducing the opportunity for an infectious organism deposited by the first deer to be picked up by the other deer. However, with feeders, every deer in a group and all following groups place their mouths/noses right into the exact spot every preceding deer did in rapid succession so saliva and other fluids are rapidly shared between many deer, GREATLY increasing the spread of any contagious disease. The differences in the transmission rate of a contagious disease between deer feeding/behaving naturally and those feeding from feeders is astronomical.

The second problem discussed is aflatoxin. Aflatoxin is the byproduct of a specific type of mold that grows on many cereal grains, but is most often found on corn. Even very, very tiny amounts of aflatoxin can be fatal to wildlife, and even if it isn't immediately fatal, it will cause permanent liver damage that will cause that animal to be unhealthy for life.

Because of this risk, many states require any corn sold for feeding to livestock OR wildlife must be certified aflatoxin free (have been tested and shown to contain no aflatoxin). TX is one of those states. Unfortunately, TN is not one of those states. Since there is no requirment to ensure corn is aflatoxin free in TN, producers from states that do have this requirement dump all their aflatoxin-tainted corn into the TN market. In fact, it can be extremely difficult to find corn for sale in TN that is certified aflatoxin free. Much of the "deer corn" sold in our state has a tag on it saying that it may contain up to 20 parts per billion of aflatoxin, which is enough to kill every adult turkey that eats it.

The mold that produces aflatoxin grows fastest in hot, wet weather. That is why feeding corn in the summer, especially in the South, is such a bad idea. I've seen fresh corn poured out yet within three days of wet weather the corn is a pile of gray fur it has so much mold on it. Any animal that ate that corn is probably dead.
_________________________
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#345635 - 08/16/07 09:24 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
TOW
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Well, after that .. are you guys still going to feed "your deer and turkeys"??
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#345723 - 08/16/07 10:00 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: ]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
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Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: TOW
Well, after that .. are you guys still going to feed "your deer and turkeys"??
NO . . . Not me.

If I were in Texas, I might feed a little corn (just not during the antler growing months), and use it as "bait" during August for getting more trail cam pics. But I'm in Tennessee, where the Texans send all their infected corn that's pulled from the market down there due to its containing "deadly aflatoxins". (And IMO, salt licks are about as effective for getting trail cam pics of bucks in August as corn feeders.)

Unlike Texas, we have two high risk factors they don't have:

1) We know we have a high chance of feeding aflatoxin-infected "deer" corn from the get-go.

2) We have a high chance of aflatoxin developing (even it we were feeding aflatoxin-free corn) because of our high humidity, whereas Texas has a more arid climate.

And like BSK points out, it's hard to know you're causing liver damage on what could grow into your prized buck, maybe shortening his life expectancy, maybe causing him to be more susceptible to a disease that causes him to die prematurely. And although the impact is unknown, it is known that any decrease in health is expected to stunt antler growth. So feed "good" corn in the spring/summer, and you're causing your deer to replace needed protein (for antler growth) with unneeded carbs from corn. Feed "bad" corn and you cause them to become sickly or die.

But this is not just an issue of my not doing it because it's both harmful and deadly to deer and turkeys. It's basically going to kill any bird that eats it --- as well as rabbits, raccoons, etc.

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#345778 - 08/16/07 10:37 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Wes Parrish]
TOW
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Let me rephrase that...

Well, after that .. are you guys still going to feed "your deer and turkeys" POISON ??
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#345781 - 08/16/07 10:40 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Winchester]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19383
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
 Quote:
---- and there will be absolutely no evidence to show they died ---- no bones, no nothing.
. . . . would you explain your above statement. Does the deer fairy suck these aflotoxin deer up at death and take care of the carcass??? LOL
Actually, Winchester, it almost seems that way. Should you ever stumble across a just died fawn, leave the site untouched, then return in a few days and see if you can find any evidence that was a dead fawn there a few days earlier.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
When it comes to young deer, especially fawns, they can die in extraordinary numbers, yet their bodies are so small and the skeletons so under-developed that they rot away and are consumed so completely be scavengers that rarely will anyone find a dead fawn carcass.
. . . . . half of all fawns born die before hunting season every year. In all your years of hunting/scouting how many dead fawns have you found?
. . . . .
Deer can die in amazing numbers and no one will notice. Scavengers are amazingly effecient at cleaning up Nature's excess.


Let me share another high-risk factor associated with feeding deer.

Predators such as bobcats and coyotes can quickly pick up on the fact that feeding stations are an excellent ambush place to kill birds, raccoons, and young deer. Button bucks are particularly susceptible to being taken by predators (more than female fawns), and by using a feeder, you're increasing the odds of loss to predators, most particularly on your button bucks.

For you more logically-thinking readers, consider this hypothetical scenario.

Your trail cam pics document 10 fawns showing up in/around a feeding station during July. Five of them (half) are male "button" bucks. These five young males represent much of the potential bucks you could have for harvest in the coming years.

Let's say one of them just gets sick and dies, and it had nothing to do with your feeder. Another gets caught and killed by your own dog (but you never know what happened). Now you're down to 3 male fawns --- close to what would be surviving from 5 in most situations WITHOUT any supplemental feeding stations.

But let's just say because of your feeding station, one of your 3 male fawns gets killed by a bobcat who's figured out there are lots of birds and animals coming and going from this one spot. When you lose 1 of 3, you've lost a third of what you had. The fact that you never find out doesn't negate your real loss. This risk factor alone is enough to make me not want to feed anything, much less corn.

But then, how many of you believe you have as many as 10 total fawns/momma does within a home range utilizing your feeder? Should you have only 2 button bucks, and a bobcat gets one near the feeder, maybe you've caused a 50% greater loss simply because you ignored the risks? I guess some will just say what you don't know won't hurt you.

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#345802 - 08/16/07 10:52 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
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Does anybody know if the "reject corn" ends up in NC as well?
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#345809 - 08/16/07 10:53 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: TOW]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: TOW
Well, after that .. are you guys still going to feed "your deer and turkeys"??


TOW,

People will do whatever they feel gives themselves some sort of easy advantage, no matter what the consequences. I've learned that the hard way. I can present solid scientific data until the cows come home and some pepole wil still do whatever their logic tells them will help even when its been proven to not help and even to be dangerous. That's just human Nature.

Reminds me a lot of the early days of QDM. I can't tell you the resistance I ran into when these ideas were new. I was called every name in the book and my data was called "voodoo science." Thankfully, that battle is long over in the South.
_________________________
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#345811 - 08/16/07 10:56 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Greg .]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Greg .
Does anybody know if the "reject corn" ends up in NC as well?


I don't know the laws in NC. But I can tell you that research by the Southeast Wildlife Disease Study Group found that half of all bait/feeder sites tested in NC contained dangerous levels of aflatoxin.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#345818 - 08/16/07 11:07 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
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Thanks, Bryan. Above I read

"Studies done in NC found that half of all bait/feeder sites tested showed levels of aflatoxin contamination high enough to cause significant poisoning of wildlife. The Southeast Wildlife Disease Study Group is finding new and unknown diseases appearing in areas where feeding/baiting is legal, but those diseases are not being seen where feeding/baiting is illegal."

I was wondering if it was determined if it came in on the corn, or was just naturally around.

In any case, it seems it is a bad idea. Try telling that to the folks in NC, though. In NC, feeding wildlife is legal as is baiting deer. Most folks use corn ... and from what I've read, some LITERALLY put out tons of it.
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#345847 - 08/16/07 11:35 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Greg .]
Darkthirty II
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I read where someone was not worried about a-tox in the field with standing corn. It still has it, there is no difference. Everyone here probally already knows that I am not too concerned with baiting, or killing off the herd.
WIth that said, if your interested in seeing how much aflatoxins are in the corn you are feeding, here is what you do:
Take a cup of corn and put into a blender and grind the corn for a few seconds.
Put ground corn under a black light, and the aflatoxins will sparkle or glow with a greenish color.
This is what we used when getting in fresh corn from farmers when I worked for the chicken company's. If we did see a-tox in the blacklight, then we did the scientific method to break it down into ppm. A small amount was ok (can't remember the exact ppm's), but if was more than that, then we rejected the load.

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#346044 - 08/16/07 01:35 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Darkthirty II]
BSK
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Greg,

It was on the corn being used.
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#346051 - 08/16/07 01:39 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
BSK
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Very interesting Darkthirty II.

Amount would have had to be very low for chickens. Birds are the most sucseptible to a-tox.

I would worry a little about standing corn, but considering it hasn't matured and dried until the cooler drier air of fall, the risk is reduced considerably. A-tox is at its worst in hot, wet and/or humid weather.
_________________________
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#346190 - 08/16/07 02:42 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
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Should we be concerned with corn planted as a food plot and left standing?
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#346392 - 08/16/07 04:18 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
BSK
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Hey, at least your honest about it 89montero! I can respect that.
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#346396 - 08/16/07 04:18 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: kholmes]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: kholmes
Should we be concerned with corn planted as a food plot and left standing?


It can be a concern (and has been found in standing corn), but generally the cooler, drier weather of fall reduces the growth of the toxin-producing mold.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#346461 - 08/16/07 05:03 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
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89montero,... I see your point. It is tradition,.. not only with you,.. but several folks. Everyone here knows how much actual baiting goes on in there area. Out of season and in season.Some folks are just gonna do it. BUT,.. do it safely. Use only corn that is cleaned ,.. even better triple cleaned. If you use protein pellets,.. keep it dry.And for sure,.. don't put 500 lbs of feed out and let it sit for 2 months in a feeder. If feeding is done correctly,... most folks don't get bothered by it as much. I highly recommend record rack products also.
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#346530 - 08/16/07 05:36 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: deerchaser007]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
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BSK,

What about the aflatoxin risk of some of these supplental feed products other than corn? At least some of them are higher in protein than carbs?

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#346628 - 08/16/07 06:15 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Wes Parrish]
wcsd462
4 Point


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That was my next question,what about protein feed? I really do appreciate the info, ya'll have really opened my eyes to feeding. I am not saying I'll quit completely, but now I see the other side. The majority of my feeding is protein feed anyway,as a matter of fact I haven't fed any corn yet this year and after reading BSK's explanation I dont know that I will.
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#347248 - 08/16/07 10:12 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Wes Parrish]
1Roscoe
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Well, I guess on a somewhat "good news front," the price of corn has gotten so high in Texas, that you can feed a like amount of 20% protein for about the same cost...so more people than ever have probably gotten away from feeding corn. :-)
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#347786 - 08/17/07 08:34 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: 1Roscoe]
BSK
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I have seen no information suggesting protein feeds carry an aflatoxin risk. Not that it doesn't, I just haven't seen it mentioned in any research.

The primary reported problems associated with protein feeding are: 1) high risk of transmitting any contagious disease that is present in the area; 2) acclimating deer to rely too heavily on feeders; 3) habitat damage in the vicinity of the feeder; 4) seriously altering natural travel patterns to be focused solely around the feeders; and 5) increasing herd reproductive success to the point over-population becomes a major problem.
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#348104 - 08/17/07 10:12 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
16 Point


Registered: 08/24/04
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What HAVEN'T we completely "buggered up" in nature because we presumed we knew better? Fields, clover, weeds, forbs, and oak trees occur naturally and in great numbers. Troughs and timed feeders don't.
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#348383 - 08/17/07 11:22 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: Greg .]
wcsd462
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Went out this morning to put out some trace mineral, on the way back I found a dead fawn on the side of the road at the edge of one of my food plots,the thing wasn't much bigger than a house cat.
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#348420 - 08/17/07 11:36 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
wcsd462
4 Point


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Question.....since I am rethinking the way I do things as far as feeding,I know this is going to be another subject that has been covered over and over but I wont to know what ya'll think. Minerals...? I know the way I was taught was to dig a hole put it in the ground, but the way I've done it for years is pour it out on a big flat rock, this seems to work just as well and their is no big hole to hold stagnant water.
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#348543 - 08/17/07 12:07 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
TOW
10 Point


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Pour it in a tree stump or a root wad....
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#350303 - 08/18/07 08:53 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: TOW]
BSK
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Yup, the stump trick seems to work well.
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#351581 - 08/18/07 10:04 PM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
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I like the stump,.. my deer also seem to also.

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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#355578 - 08/21/07 02:55 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: deerchaser007]
wcsd462
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/06
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Yea I know the stump thing works, my question was more to the type of mineral to use. I have always used trace. What is the best?
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#355691 - 08/21/07 07:18 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: wcsd462]
TOW
10 Point


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Trace mineral works for me....I use the loose and just pour it on the stump....





Edited by TOW (08/21/07 07:18 AM)
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#355808 - 08/21/07 08:06 AM Re: Feeding Deer [Re: TOW]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Trace works fine. Salt blocks from the Coop work fine. Personally, I like Trophy Rocks because they last longer.
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