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#3282252 - 07/04/13 11:11 AM I reccomend this for...
bowriter
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My old friend Gene Wensel has written a thought provoking article. I think there maybe some on here who recognize his name. Good reading.

http://www.probowsociety.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1688
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#3282269 - 07/04/13 11:29 AM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: bowriter]
BSK
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Good article. I agree with 95% of it.
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#3282272 - 07/04/13 11:32 AM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: BSK]
bowriter
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My exact figure, 95%.
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#3282513 - 07/04/13 04:53 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: bowriter]
Buzzard Breath
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I don't need some old fart to be telling me why I hunt, or how I should hunt. I hunt for my own reasons and don't feel like I'm any less of a hunter because of it.

I also find it kind of hypocritical that someone who earns income from the commercialization of hunting to be complaing about the commercialization of hunting.

FYI, I hunt with a longbow. If I was to ever go back to shooting a compound, it would be because I don't want to be associated with these trad hunters who think they're holier than most because of their methods.

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#3282585 - 07/04/13 06:54 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: Buzzard Breath]
BHC
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I see nothing wrong with technology..times change... I don't care much for hunting shows... But that's about all I agree with him on, on the hunting side of things, but I didn't finish the article either... I hunt from modern tree stands with modern weapons of all types.. On managed property.. I've never been on a deer shoot.... It takes me many hrs scouting and hunting each yr to take a decent buck every yr or two...
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#3282623 - 07/04/13 07:53 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: BHC]
bowriter
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\:\) Never ceases to amaze me.
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#3282707 - 07/04/13 10:04 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: bowriter]
eweisner
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Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 1880
Loc: Portland, TN

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I had no issue at all with the first quarter of the article. The middle half I agreed on some points. I caused me to stop and remember the old men that lived around my grandfather's house who talked about buying surplus Springfield, Enfield, and Mauser from Woolworth's because that was what they could afford. Heck they still sold them there when I was a kid. I used to get in all kinds of trouble with grandma because I always wandered off to that section of the store and got grease all over my hands.

I remember them talking about buying the .30-30 because that was the deer gun to have, and that they all desired. Don't even get them started on the Winchester or Marlin debate. In reality there were probaby more Western Auto, Ted Williams and J.C. Whitney's floating around than anything. And bow hunting was something their kids did (my dad had a Fred Bear 65lb recurve I dry fired one to many times).

I had no issue with him pointing out that many hunters today are opportunist and that there has been something lost in the art of hunting. I agree. I am teaching myself, my children, and the boys that I am mentoring some of those lost arts, but we will use modern "weapons" to make the kill more humane.

And honestly I detest hunting shows. Most make me uncomfortable. One that sticks out in my mind showcased the three bladed turkey broad head that is designed to behead a turkey. Look the video up on YouTube it shows the turkey's head separating from it's body over and over. And then they used it on an Ostrich and it mortally wounded the bird and did not result in a quick clean kill. The part that bothered me was that it appeared to be done just to see if it could be done.

I could not agree more with him when he said that we are not at war with these animals. This is my not so humble opinion that is because quite apparent. There is little respect for the animal anymore. I have always viewed the taking of life as personal and intimate. I don't see much of that anymore today.

To be honest, I struggled with the idea of hunting at all for a while. But what I am learning about our food and the sources it comes from I am at a crossroads. Vegetarian or carnivore. If I eat meat, and I love steak, 90% or better will have to be from wild game. My struggle comes from my childhood. When I was young we ate lots of wild game. We were poor. I mean dirt poor. Beef was a luxury. My mom remembers being in tears when dad would come home from hunting with nothing to show for it. Once I talked myself through the I'm not "eating poor man's meat", I am actually providing better alternatives for my family, then was I okay.

The last 1/4 felt like an advertisement. His article was well written and an example of why I love America. It's his opinion and he has exercised his freedom to express himself. My choice is whether or not to exercise my freedom and read the article.

Sorry about that...Kinda got side tracked there...
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#3282975 - 07/05/13 11:45 AM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: eweisner]
MattR
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 Originally Posted By: eweisner
And honestly I detest hunting shows. Most make me uncomfortable. One that sticks out in my mind showcased the three bladed turkey broad head that is designed to behead a turkey. Look the video up on YouTube it shows the turkey's head separating from it's body over and over. And then they used it on an Ostrich and it mortally wounded the bird and did not result in a quick clean kill. The part that bothered me was that it appeared to be done just to see if it could be done.

I could not agree more with him when he said that we are not at war with these animals. This is my not so humble opinion that is because quite apparent. There is little respect for the animal anymore. I have always viewed the taking of life as personal and intimate. I don't see much of that anymore today.




I am 24 years old, I was raised to have respect for the animal that you are hunting. It's really disappointing to see how foolish and disrespectful some people are to the game that they are hunting. Also alot of it seems to be the younger generation that has this attitude. A lot of the Tv hunters are out to kill, they really don't even hunt, travel place to place each one having a guide that takes them to where they need to be. What's popular is the killing aspect of it, not the hunt. Don't get me wrong I love killing deer, but I love the hunt, not just the day of the hunt, I'm talking year round everything, all the thought and preparation that goes in to it. I hope the respect of the hunt and of the game doesn't fade away with time. It sure seems that it might. Of course I'm sure there will always be a few that share my same opinion


Edited by MattR (07/05/13 11:46 AM)
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#3282979 - 07/05/13 11:54 AM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: MattR]
greygoose
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Registered: 11/23/12
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[/quote]


Edited by greygoose (07/05/13 11:55 AM)
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#3282990 - 07/05/13 12:16 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: greygoose]
Winchester
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Much truth to the article along with some hypocritical points as well!
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#3283007 - 07/05/13 12:48 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: Winchester]
scn
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I didn't agree with his rant about crossbows and modern muzzleloaders, but the rest was pretty much spot on. I have always enjoyed reading stuff from the Wensels.
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#3283030 - 07/05/13 01:55 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: scn]
BSK
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Since we're going to nitpick, the two areas in which I disagree are, first, like scn, I really don't think what weapon is in your hands matters at all. It's about being a hunter of deer versus being a shooter of deer. You can carrying the highest tech bow, MZ, or rifle and still be a very good hunter of deer. If you can place yourself in close proximity to hunter-wary deer, it doesn't matter what you shoot the deer with. You still had to use the same level of skill to get that close as if you were carry a long-bow, side-hammer MZ, or open-sighted 30-30.


My second minor grip involves this passage:

"I can’t help but ask myself why high-tech hunters, once they “master” their hunting tools, don’t naturally and instinctively realize such and revert to increasing personal challenge levels one way or another rather than pushing onward."

My gripe is, why does hunting have to be about increasing personal challenge? I think most hunters do look at hunting through this prism, but I don't think they have to. I "did" the "increasing personal challenge" thing for many years. But eventually, I no longer wanted hunting to be about "raising the bar." I just wanted to hunt and enjoy time in the woods with friends and family. The joy of hunting became more about "having hunted"--the tradition and the soul-rejuvenating experience--rather than any personal accomplishments.

On the other hand, I couldn't agree more with the author's diatribe against hunting shows and those who "star" in them. TV hunting shows are the worst thing to happen to hunting in my lifetime.
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#3283043 - 07/05/13 02:11 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: BSK]
Master Chief
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I'm with you guys.. Good article except for the negative feelings on modern weapons... That and it takes him forever to get to the point lol
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#3283111 - 07/05/13 03:30 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: Master Chief]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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I think the author falls into the logical trap of seeing the weapon as the problem instead of how the weapon is used. Just because a deer can be killed at 500 yards with high-quality 7mm Mag doesn't mean a hunter has to use it that way (and I would suspect most don't). During rifle season, I carry a weapon that is easily accurate to 400 yards, but I still make the majority of my kills inside 35 yards. Does it not take the same skill to get a hunter-wary deer inside 35 yards, no matter if I have a open-sighted lever-action 30-30 or scoped bolt-action 308 in my hands?
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3284530 - 07/07/13 09:50 AM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: BSK]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 03/26/99
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At one point in my stage of hunting I combined the notion of increasing the personal challenge that also allowed me more time to be in the woods. To this day I still lean towards increasing the personal challenge but not so much with the weapon I choose to hunt with but rather the caliber of animal I pursue. I guess it's a good thing I hunt in Tn where there is somewhat of a cap on that "caliber" as opposed to the Midwestern states where the sky is the limit.

I've always thought that the Wensels were somewhat opinionated but I've admired them and their talents for a long time now. I have Gene's first book autographed and it probably had much to do with my transformation as a hunter.
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#3284666 - 07/07/13 12:36 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: Winchester]
redblood
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great read, relates well to the other thread in this forim concerning hunting shows
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#3285712 - 07/08/13 01:56 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: redblood]
WRbowhunter
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1590
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Good article but in the end was it not just a plug to join PBS?
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#3285917 - 07/08/13 06:31 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: WRbowhunter]
bowriter
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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
Good article but in the end was it not just a plug to join PBS?


No, not a plug. They turn most applicants down.
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#3285946 - 07/08/13 07:30 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: bowriter]
Poser
Mud Dauber
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Couldn't make it halfway through. I agree with some of it, but sounds like a bitter, old man throwing a temper tantrum. I'd hate to get trapped into a conversation with this guy.

and this:

"Traditional deer camps were sold.... or only used for poker, booze, smoking, or to test drive new girlfriends."

and, what, pray tell, is wrong with that? \:D
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#3286549 - 07/09/13 12:57 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: Poser]
Headhunter
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Some good and correct things there, but ramblings of an old fart also are there. Hard for me to read.
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#3287678 - 07/10/13 03:54 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: bowriter]
Wes Parrish
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Regarding Mr. Wensel's article, regarding hunting, those were perhaps the best and most "spot on" thoughts I've seen in print in years.

I agree with about 97% of his thoughts. Maybe when I gain the wisdom of his age and experiences, we'll come into greater agreement. \:\)

And since many have "nitpicked" and some outright disagreed (not even having the ability or willingness to read the article), I did say I didn't agree with about 3% . . . . . . . so . . . . .

 Originally Posted By: BSK
Since we're going to nitpick. . . like scn, I really don't think what weapon is in your hands matters at all. It's about being a hunter of deer versus being a shooter of deer.

Exactly, and I believe Mr. Wensel's great message is in fact to recognize the distinction between "hunting" and "shooting". Perhaps he's using archery somewhat as a metaphor. After all, there are plenty of bowhunters doing some very unethical "shooting" of arrows, some of whom celebrate themselves on TV by broadcasting extreme long-range, low-probability bow shots.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
If you can place yourself in close proximity to hunter-wary deer, it doesn't matter what you shoot the deer with.

I agree, and would bet, so does Mr. Wensel. But he may have come to understand human nature better than many of us young whippersnappers, thus to some degree is using archery as a metaphor to make some key points.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
You still had to use the same level of skill to get that close as if you were carry a long-bow, side-hammer MZ, or open-sighted 30-30.

Technically, correct, regarding getting close. But regarding the challenge of actually killing the animal, there is usually considerably more skill required when one is hunting with a traditional bow.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
My second minor grip involves this passage:

"I can’t help but ask myself why high-tech hunters, once they “master” their hunting tools, don’t naturally and instinctively realize such and revert to increasing personal challenge levels one way or another rather than pushing onward."

My gripe is, why does hunting have to be about increasing personal challenge? I think most hunters do look at hunting through this prism, but I don't think they have to. I "did" the "increasing personal challenge" thing for many years. But eventually, I no longer wanted hunting to be about "raising the bar." I just wanted to hunt and enjoy time in the woods with friends and family. The joy of hunting became more about "having hunted"--the tradition and the soul-rejuvenating experience--rather than any personal accomplishments.

Actually, isn't making the decision to hunt and enjoy time in the woods with friends and family somewhat as Mr. Wensel said, . . . "rather than pushing onward."??

Regarding that "one way or another", some of my "ways" include:

1) Not taking anything less than very high-probability shots (for whatever weapon I have in hand).
----- And isn't this also an example of "not pushing onward"?

2) Focusing more on a buck's age than his antlers.

3) Passing up deer I might normally shoot for no other reason than wanting to give a friend an increased opportunity on that particular animal.

These are among some of my ideals that have evolved over time, and I admit I've not followed them as well I should. In fact, a few years ago, I repeatedly passed up a particular 4 1/2-yr-old buck, only to make the decision to take him as I watched him walking towards another hunter. Well, at least the other hunter was a stranger. \:\) But my bad, for being somewhat selfish, as I really had had no desire to take that particular buck.

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#3287713 - 07/10/13 04:23 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: Wes Parrish]
bowriter
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I have hunted with Gene several times. Be hard to find a more ethical and moral hunter. Hunts his way, let's you hunt yours. Not once has he ever said a wordor given me a sideway glance when I drag outmy crossbow. Doesn't bother him a bit. It isn't equipment he is decrying, it is attitude brought on by equipment in the handsof some. He is mourning the loss of tradition and the passing on of tradition, the respect and values some older hunters are seeing vanish.

What he is saying is something very few young people can understand because theynever knew it, knew only what they saw on television. To think he is a bitter old man is to lack the age and experience to understand what he has written and perhaps the ability to ever understand it. There are many who have killed truck loads of larger antlered deer than Gene and have no idea what he is talking about or will ever be the hunter he is because it is not about killing or what you kill or what you kill it with.

It is about the hunt and the respect for not just the game but the hunt itself. The loss of that is what he is mourning.
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#3287725 - 07/10/13 04:37 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: bowriter]
MattR
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I understand it bowriter and that what kind of the point the I picked up from reading it. As I posted before the reason for hunting seems to be changing, the only way I know this is because the way I was raised to hunt is completely different, and it almost even has a different objective, than what is being made "popular" by hunting TV.
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#3287735 - 07/10/13 04:47 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: MattR]
bowriter
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Yep
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#3287740 - 07/10/13 04:53 PM Re: I reccomend this for... [Re: bowriter]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
It isn't equipment he is decrying, it is attitude brought on by equipment in the hands of some. He is mourning the loss of tradition and the passing on of tradition, the respect and values some older hunters are seeing vanish.

What he is saying is something very few young people can understand because they never knew it, knew only what they saw on television. To think he is a bitter old man is to lack the age and experience to understand what he has written and perhaps the ability to ever understand it.

Now with this, I agree 100%. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: bowriter
There are many who have killed truck loads of larger antlered deer than Gene and have no idea what he is talking about or will ever be the hunter he is because it is not about killing or what you kill or what you kill it with.

It is about the hunt and the respect for not just the game but the hunt itself. The loss of that is what he is mourning.

Actually, I doubt 1% of the top 1% of hunters have killed as many large-antlered bucks as Mr. Wensel. But that said, in part due to his personal choice of hunting with a recurve bow, he has by personal choice let many large-antlered bucks walk, which would have been easy kills for anyone carrying any kind of firearm. His accomplishments should not be measured by the number of bucks on his wall, although he had taken many P&Y class bucks with a recurve bow decades before most of his critics were born.

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