Tndeer Logo

Page all of 14 12345>Last »
Topic Options
#3281968 - 07/03/13 10:18 PM BSK, gonna love this one
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12724
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
The author of this article might be single handed my spewing the largest amount if deer hunting fallacies on the Internet. You may recall our discussion on his previous post "Can you kill deer like the pros"

http://wiredtohunt.com/2013/07/02/2013-r...ired+To+Hunt%29
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

http://www.GoCarnivore.com

Top
#3282116 - 07/04/13 08:20 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Poser]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
This guy is the epitome of the problem I so often rail about: self-proclaimed experts (who usually come from the trophy hunter ranks) spouting junk biology and management information.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3282122 - 07/04/13 08:27 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
Dang, the rutting moon is extremely late this year! November 17th.....I might not hunt until the second weekend in muzzy

\:D what idiots
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3282168 - 07/04/13 09:21 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
W.Seay
14 Point


Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 8224
Loc: Collierville,TN.

Offline
Wow??!!
_________________________
To one with faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.

Top
#3282175 - 07/04/13 09:25 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: W.Seay]
jlmustain
6 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 657
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
Do you think any of his info' has to do with locale? I'm not saying what's he's written is correct, but it's not like he doesn't have any deer on the wall.
_________________________
No hunt is all skill. If not for a little luck, no one would hunt.

Top
#3282225 - 07/04/13 10:21 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
Do you think any of his info' has to do with locale?


No. Nowhere in the whitetail's range is breeding timing driven by moon conditions. Each location will have its own unique breeding timing (peak dates), and that timing is the same year after year, regardless of full moon timing and whether or not hunters actually witness it. And that last part is critical. What hunters see and what is really going on biologically can be two very, VERY different things.


 Quote:
I'm not saying what's he's written is correct, but it's not like he doesn't have any deer on the wall.


jlmustain,

I don't want the following comments to sound like I'm picking on you personally, because I'm certainly not. But this erroneous idea that because someone is a successful killer of big bucks makes them a knowledgeable biologist runs rampant within the hunting community. But think about it. That's like saying a highly successful serial killer would make a great doctor. If someone is great at killing people they must know everything there is to know about human biology. Would you have wanted Jeffrey Dahmer as your brain surgeon?

I'm not saying successful trophy hunters don't know anything about deer. What I'm saying is the knowledge required to be a successful trophy hunter is VERY different than what is required to understand deer herd biology and management. What I often see with successful trophy hunters is they make exceptionally savvy observations about deer behavior that help them pattern and understand daylight deer movements better than the vast majority of other hunters, but they jump to completely erroneous conclusions as to biologically WHY deer are doing the things they observe them doing.

Having sound biological knowledge of deer can make you a more successful hunter, but on its own, that knowledge won't make you a successful trophy hunter. Other more specialized knowledge is required. In the same vein, knowledge of successful tactics for trophy bucks does not make one a biologist. The two types of knowledge are quite different.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3282266 - 07/04/13 11:22 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
Bill Winke hit it dead on and nothing else needs to be said. Of course, he just said what I have always said...me and BSK. \:\)

Just something to think about. If a successful hunter,one who has killed 50-bucks over 150" is asked to name the chambers of a deer's stomachs, how many do you think can? Conversely, most deer biologist can quickly name the four chambers. How many do you think can kill 50-bucks over 150"?

I can put gas in my truck but I can't win the Indy 500.

Oh...Rumen, reticlum, omasum and abomasum.

_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3282314 - 07/04/13 12:18 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: bowriter]
catman529
spiderboy
16 Point


Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 16293
Loc: Franklin TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Bill Winke hit it dead on and nothing else needs to be said. Of course, he just said what I have always said...me and BSK. \:\)

Just something to think about. If a successful hunter,one who has killed 50-bucks over 150" is asked to name the chambers of a deer's stomachs, how many do you think can? Conversely, most deer biologist can quickly name the four chambers. How many do you think can kill 50-bucks over 150"?

I can put gas in my truck but I can't win the Indy 500.

Oh...Rumen, reticlum, omasum and abomasum.

which of the four chambers contains the green privet pesto like when I accidentally cut into a does stomach last October? Stuff was nasty
_________________________
Haven't been this excited about deer season

...since last deer season

Top
#3282320 - 07/04/13 12:22 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: catman529]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
Catman, in all likely hood, that would be the abomasum. That is where pepsin is produced and that is probably what you are talking about. However, mostly digested green browse could be found in any from number one, the rumen on back and might look the same. You can find out by tasting it. The pepsin is slightly bitter and slithly acidic tasting. The green bwose should not be bitter.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3282356 - 07/04/13 12:56 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: bowriter]
catman529
spiderboy
16 Point


Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 16293
Loc: Franklin TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Catman, in all likely hood, that would be the abomasum. That is where pepsin is produced and that is probably what you are talking about. However, mostly digested green browse could be found in any from number one, the rumen on back and might look the same. You can find out by tasting it. The pepsin is slightly bitter and slithly acidic tasting. The green bwose should not be bitter.
OK, I will bring a McDonalds straw in the woods with me for test tasting. Does the frost affect the flavor? What if the deer has been browsing on poison ivy?
_________________________
Haven't been this excited about deer season

...since last deer season

Top
#3282368 - 07/04/13 01:13 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: catman529]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
Killing big bucks on free ranging land where these mature deer act like...MATURE deer (namely are no hunted lightly but rather are hunted hard and KNOW they are being hunted, does NOT take a deer biologist.

It takes someone who is capable of killing mature deer becuase they have LEARNED how.

I have yet to meet ANY CONSISTENTLY successful mature deer hunter who does not know at least a little something about deer behavior. But most are certainly NOT deer biologist.

Also, I have never met a deer biologist who was good at consistently killing mature pressured deer.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3282439 - 07/04/13 02:45 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
Also, I have never met a deer biologist who was good at consistently killing mature pressured deer.


I have, but their ability to kill mature bucks from pressured land had little to do with their biological knowledge and everything to do with dedicating years and years to learning how to do so.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3282440 - 07/04/13 02:48 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
I have yet to meet ANY CONSISTENTLY successful mature deer hunter who does not know at least a little something about deer behavior.


I agree. But knowing something about deer behavior doesn't imply knowing why or for what biological reason deer are displaying that behavior (i.e. what that behavior means biologically).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3282498 - 07/04/13 04:40 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
Having a biological knowledge of deer is, without a doubt, an aid in consistently killing bucks of any age. I have on several occasions killed mature bucks that I may have never killed had I not had some biological (educational) knowledge of what they were most apt to do in certain situations. Most often as it related to a food source.

Consistently killing mature bucks involves not only knowledge but time and opportunity. Knowledge not only of the animal but of the terrain and food sources. However, the overriding factor in consistently killing mature bucks on any land, private or public is luck.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3282555 - 07/04/13 06:01 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: catman529]
jlmustain
6 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 657
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
I didn't take it personally. I'm just trying to figure out the issue. So is his reliance and usage of the solunar calendar is your beef?
_________________________
No hunt is all skill. If not for a little luck, no one would hunt.

Top
#3282617 - 07/04/13 07:37 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
Consistently killing mature bucks involves not only knowledge but time and opportunity. Knowledge not only of the animal but of the terrain and food sources. However, the overriding factor in consistently killing mature bucks on any land, private or public is luck.



EXACTLY!
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3282622 - 07/04/13 07:49 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
I didn't take it personally. I'm just trying to figure out the issue. So is his reliance and usage of the solunar calendar is your beef?


You see, it is an ongoing thing. His reliance on a "theory" that has been proven to be totally false is the thing. IOW-the moon has nothing to do with the rut. However, he keeps trying to sell a product and a "schedule" based on the totally false information. That is the beef that BSK, myself and others have with this.

It is no big deal but he is trying to pass himself off as an expert and a biologist when in fact, he is neither.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3282724 - 07/04/13 11:15 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: bowriter]
Boone 58
16 Point


Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Food Plot

Offline
\:D .................aint falling for the ole "tasting the oboamsum trick"................ \:D

Edited by Boone 58 (07/04/13 11:15 PM)
_________________________
The problem in America is not that ungodly people have said yes to ungodly things, but rather that Godly people have refused to say "no" to ungodly things.
Copied

Top
#3282750 - 07/05/13 12:25 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: bowriter]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12724
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
I didn't take it personally. I'm just trying to figure out the issue. So is his reliance and usage of the solunar calendar is your beef?


You see, it is an ongoing thing. His reliance on a "theory" that has been proven to be totally false is the thing. IOW-the moon has nothing to do with the rut. However, he keeps trying to sell a product and a "schedule" based on the totally false information. That is the beef that BSK, myself and others have with this.

It is no big deal but he is trying to pass himself off as an expert and a biologist when in fact, he is neither.


I don't know this guy personally, but, based on his writings, he represents (most of everything) wrong with contemporary deer hunting.
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

http://www.GoCarnivore.com

Top
#3282752 - 07/05/13 12:30 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: catman529]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 14619
Loc: Lewisburg

content Online
i dont know about the accuracy of his predictions-time will solve that riddle, But his writing is a snore fest.
_________________________
"I will predator hunt for food "

Top
#3282942 - 07/05/13 10:38 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: redblood]
jlmustain
6 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 657
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
I've enjoyed his site. I don't know about the biology of it all, but I can appreciate what I read from folks who do know deer biology, especially if it relates to helping put meat in my freezer. Knowing stomach chambers isn't as big a deal to me as making sure I don't puncture it.

BSK, do you have a 'site/blog with articles about the biology of deer and how it relates to hunting them?

As for the moon, I don't yet see a correlation between it and deer movement, intrinsically. Practically, though, I do pay attention to it, especially in December if fuller moons occur on clear nights. I do see a correlation there in that they all seem to put up shop by shooting hours on pressured land since they can accomplish what they need to by the moon's light.

I can see where it would frustrate a deer biologist to read unproven or false claims by non-biologists who claim to be.

As for the rut, I've only paid attention to what chases does, and since the moon's never done that, I don't pay it much mind.
_________________________
No hunt is all skill. If not for a little luck, no one would hunt.

Top
#3282943 - 07/05/13 10:38 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
MattR
8 Point


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: Nashville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
Do you think any of his info' has to do with locale?



 Quote:
I'm not saying what's he's written is correct, but it's not like he doesn't have any deer on the wall.



I'm not saying successful trophy hunters don't know anything about deer. What I'm saying is the knowledge required to be a successful trophy hunter is VERY different than what is required to understand deer herd biology and management. What I often see with successful trophy hunters is they make exceptionally savvy observations about deer behavior that help them pattern and understand daylight deer movements better than the vast majority of other hunters, but they jump to completely erroneous conclusions as to biologically WHY deer are doing the things they observe them doing.

Having sound biological knowledge of deer can make you a more successful hunter, but on its own, that knowledge won't make you a successful trophy hunter. Other more specialized knowledge is required. In the same vein, knowledge of successful tactics for trophy bucks does not make one a biologist. The two types of knowledge are quite different.


So, basically, they are great at knowing how, and maybe when deer do something, as opposed to a biologist knowing why they do it. I would rather know why.


Edited by MattR (07/05/13 10:42 AM)
_________________________
Corpsman Up!

Top
#3282944 - 07/05/13 10:43 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: redblood]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: redblood
i dont know about the accuracy of his predictions-time will solve that riddle...


"Time" (and good research) have already solved the question of the accuracy of his rut predictions. They are inaccurate.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3282946 - 07/05/13 10:47 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: MattR]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MattR
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I'm not saying successful trophy hunters don't know anything about deer. What I'm saying is the knowledge required to be a successful trophy hunter is VERY different than what is required to understand deer herd biology and management. What I often see with successful trophy hunters is they make exceptionally savvy observations about deer behavior that help them pattern and understand daylight deer movements better than the vast majority of other hunters, but they jump to completely erroneous conclusions as to biologically WHY deer are doing the things they observe them doing.


So, basically, they are great at knowing how, and maybe when deer do something, as opposed to a biologist knowing why they do it.


Correct. Good hunters often notice patterns in deer activity that they later exploit to their advantage, making them more successful killers of specific deer. However, noticing the pattern doesn't explain why that pattern occurs. Knowing why that pattern occurs can also provide predictive information that leads to hunting success.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3282954 - 07/05/13 11:04 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
I didn't take it personally. I'm just trying to figure out the issue. So is his reliance and usage of the solunar calendar is your beef?


My first beef is his promotion of bad information--information (that moon cycles trigger breeding timing in deer) that has been known to be false for a number of years; long enough that he should know better, as that information has been widely available. My second beef, not directed at the author but at many hunters, is that because he has killed some nice bucks, hunters will assume he is very knowledgeable about deer biology and management issues. The author may be a wealth of information about hunting big bucks in the Midwest, but that doesn't automatically mean he has knowledge of deer biology and management. Yet hunters will see his bucks on the wall, make the illogical leap that he "knows what he's talking about," and then soak in everything he has to say, ignoring the facts learned through real science.

That last part may seem unimportant, as people are free to believe anything they want, and good scientists often disagree on what the "truth" really is. But as an educator, ever since "professional hunters" and their self-aggrandizing TV shows became popular, I have had to spend the vast majority of my time "undoing" all the bad information these "pros" spout and hunters eat up because they heard it on TV from a pro hunter. If those pro hunters would take the time to educate themselves, they could be a huge help in educating hunters on biologically sound management concepts. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be interested in that, and worse yet, it often appears their promotion of false information is linked to personal monetary gain.

Personally, I have no problem with people benefitting monetarily from the commercialization of deer hunting or knowledge of deer. But if you're going to "sell information," then sell accurate information.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3282970 - 07/05/13 11:42 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
jlmustain
6 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 657
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
Do you have a 'site? If not, have you thought about it? De-bunking myths is always an audience magnet.
_________________________
No hunt is all skill. If not for a little luck, no one would hunt.

Top
#3282987 - 07/05/13 12:07 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
MattR
8 Point


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: Nashville

Offline
Too many people take the garbage that comes out of alot of these "professional hunters" mouths as a fact when it is very far from the truth and this article proves it. Misinformation. It makes it a lot harder for hunters who are trying to soak up all the deer hunting information they can when you have people writing information that they do not understand or know to be fact.
_________________________
Corpsman Up!

Top
#3282993 - 07/05/13 12:24 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27527
Loc: TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
Consistently killing mature bucks involves not only knowledge but time and opportunity. Knowledge not only of the animal but of the terrain and food sources. However, the overriding factor in consistently killing mature bucks on any land, private or public is luck.



EXACTLY!

I agree to a point, but when this feat is achieved on a consistent basis, much much more is involved than luck alone! I agree luck plays a role, but to do this consistently is far from lucky alone!

Top
#3283001 - 07/05/13 12:37 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12724
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
Do you have a 'site? If not, have you thought about it? De-bunking myths is always an audience magnet.


"Deer Myth Busters" would be a good one. There is definitely a need for a blog like that.
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

http://www.GoCarnivore.com

Top
#3283017 - 07/05/13 01:19 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
Do you have a 'site?


Yes. TNdeer.com! \:\)

Actually, I used to answer questions on several deer hunting talk forums, but I mainly stick to TNdeer and ALdeer these days.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283025 - 07/05/13 01:50 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Winchester]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Winchester
 Originally Posted By: 102
Consistently killing mature bucks involves not only knowledge but time and opportunity. Knowledge not only of the animal but of the terrain and food sources. However, the overriding factor in consistently killing mature bucks on any land, private or public is luck.



EXACTLY!

I agree to a point, but when this feat is achieved on a consistent basis, much much more is involved than luck alone! I agree luck plays a role, but to do this consistently is far from lucky alone!


Yea right Winchester...try to prove skill over luck to the nay sayers!!!
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3283035 - 07/05/13 01:58 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
I agree that consistently killing old, wary deer, year after year, is far more than luck or time spent in the woods. Luck and time spent are helpful, but knowledge and skill are far more important, and can always be found attributal to consistent success.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283081 - 07/05/13 02:58 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
jlmustain
6 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 657
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
I was talking about for articles. I'd love to read a biologist/hunter's take on an array of subjects. I'm mostly interested in scouting for bow season on public lands right now. An article, for me, takes away the mystery of having to ask the right questions on a subject I don't know what I don't know about. Ha!
_________________________
No hunt is all skill. If not for a little luck, no one would hunt.

Top
#3283082 - 07/05/13 03:00 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
greygoose
6 Point


Registered: 11/23/12
Posts: 543
Loc: memphis

Offline
wow ,this one will go on for a while...let*s get it on
_________________________
TENNESSEE VOLunteers -go vols!--Any day above dirt,is a good day!

Top
#3283105 - 07/05/13 03:25 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: jlmustain]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jlmustain
I was talking about for articles. I'd love to read a biologist/hunter's take on an array of subjects. I'm mostly interested in scouting for bow season on public lands right now. An article, for me, takes away the mystery of having to ask the right questions on a subject I don't know what I don't know about. Ha!


Subscribe to Quality Whitetails by joining the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA). They have been publishing articles written by biologist and researcher professionals--but written in language intended for the average hunter--for many years. This magazine specializes in presenting the latest in deer biology and management research, but always written for the average hunter and/or land manager in mind.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283363 - 07/05/13 09:27 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 14619
Loc: Lewisburg

content Online
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I agree that consistently killing old, wary deer, year after year, is far more than luck or time spent in the woods. Luck and time spent are helpful, but knowledge and skill are far more important, and can always be found attributal to consistent success.



i know of one guy i consider an expert at it and he told me, the key is not knowing when to hunt, it is knowing when not to hunt. most hunter overeducate the deer with a blue collar worksmanship approach.
_________________________
"I will predator hunt for food "

Top
#3283402 - 07/05/13 10:04 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: redblood]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: redblood
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I agree that consistently killing old, wary deer, year after year, is far more than luck or time spent in the woods. Luck and time spent are helpful, but knowledge and skill are far more important, and can always be found attributal to consistent success.



i know of one guy i consider an expert at it and he told me, the key is not knowing when to hunt, it is knowing when not to hunt. most hunter overeducate the deer with a blue collar worksmanship approach.


Agreed!
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3283469 - 07/06/13 12:06 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
BowGuy84
10 Point


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 4904
Loc: Nashville, TN and Louisville, ...

Offline
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
 Originally Posted By: redblood
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I agree that consistently killing old, wary deer, year after year, is far more than luck or time spent in the woods. Luck and time spent are helpful, but knowledge and skill are far more important, and can always be found attributal to consistent success.



i know of one guy i consider an expert at it and he told me, the key is not knowing when to hunt, it is knowing when not to hunt. most hunter overeducate the deer with a blue collar worksmanship approach.


Agreed!


I totally agree.

I like to hunt butin many instances I don't hunt even the same property that my best bucks are on if the situations aren't right.

Top
#3283633 - 07/06/13 09:51 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: redblood]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: redblood
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I agree that consistently killing old, wary deer, year after year, is far more than luck or time spent in the woods. Luck and time spent are helpful, but knowledge and skill are far more important, and can always be found attributal to consistent success.



i know of one guy i consider an expert at it and he told me, the key is not knowing when to hunt, it is knowing when not to hunt. most hunter overeducate the deer with a blue collar worksmanship approach.


Excellent point redblood. I believe the biggest mistake most hunters make is over-hunting locations.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283645 - 07/06/13 10:04 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
My first beef is his promotion of bad information--information (that moon cycles trigger breeding timing in deer) that has been known to be false for a number of years; . . . . . Unfortunately, they don't appear to be interested in that, and worse yet, it often appears their promotion of false information is linked to personal monetary gain.

Personally, I have no problem with people benefiting monetarily from the commercialization of deer hunting or knowledge of deer. But if you're going to "sell information," then sell accurate information.

x 2

When I first met BSK over a decade ago, I had to wonder about him. \:D
I actually thought about the only way he could kill a mature buck was to "ugly" one to death. Somewhere I have a pic of him with a buck, that does in fact appear to have died just from looking towards BSK.

But I've found most of what BSK says to be "spot on" correct. (Just pay no attention to him if he says anything about bowhunting.)

To add a personal observation from my experiences in killing a few and passing up a few more mature bucks in Tennessee, the number one factor effecting daytime mature buck movement during the Tennessee rut is NOT moon phase: It is temperature. No other factor stimulates daytime deer movement during TN's rut more than cooler than normal temperatures. Doesn't matter to me how much or when the bucks are rutting at night, based on the moon or any other factors. I want to see them during the day.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
Excellent point redblood. I believe the biggest mistake most hunters make is over-hunting locations.

That has been very true in my experiences and observations.
Particularly, hunters are "nocturnalizing" localized deer movement simply by using a particular stand or location too often, and most often, when the conditions are very low probability. ONLY hunt a particular stand or "spot" when the conditions are IDEAL. You'll actually kill more older bucks if you instead go fishing when the conditions are not ideal to hunt a specific spot.

Top
#3283649 - 07/06/13 10:08 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
I actually thought about the only way he could kill a mature buck was to "ugly" one to death. Somewhere I have a pic of him with a buck, that does in fact appear to have died just from looking towards BSK.


If I couldn't "ugly deer to death," I would never kill any!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283653 - 07/06/13 10:17 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
You should post a pic of yourself from back in your "long hair" days, carrying "Thor's Hammers", posing with a buck, with that meaner than mean look on your face! \:D

Most particularly, that one with the buck on which no one could find any visible wound. He obviously had been scared to death.

Top
#3283659 - 07/06/13 10:32 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
You mean this one?

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283696 - 07/06/13 11:28 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Master Chief
10 Point


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2708
Loc: Henderson County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
You mean this one?



For some reason I feel like the BA level of that pic would be even higher if you had an old cowboy hat on \:D
_________________________
It's not what you got, it's what you give-Tesla

Don't go ridin' on that long black train ;\)

Top
#3283718 - 07/06/13 11:51 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
You mean this one?

Yes! That's the one!
Note not a scratch on the deer, no blood coming from his mouth or nose. That deer was "UGLIED" to death, probably died of a heart attack from his scare upon seeing you. \:D

Top
#3283730 - 07/06/13 12:03 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
I promise you, the recoil from Thor's Hammers was almost enough to scare ME to death!

That is a gun I NEVER shot "for fun." Each year, I would fire one shot out of each barrel to make sure it was still sighted in, and that's it.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283752 - 07/06/13 12:33 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
catman529
spiderboy
16 Point


Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 16293
Loc: Franklin TN

Offline
Seeing your pic BSK makes me not feel so alone when posting pics of me with my deer. \:D
_________________________
Haven't been this excited about deer season

...since last deer season

Top
#3283780 - 07/06/13 01:12 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
That is a gun I NEVER shot "for fun."

.58 caliber elephant thumper! \:D
With no recoil pad!

Top
#3283839 - 07/06/13 02:31 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
I agree with most of what has been said so far. I will add that I know a few hunters who regularly (and in this I mean every year or two on public land with a bow) kill a mature deer.
Almost always they kill their deer by doing things right on a consistent basis. By paying attention to the smallest details in themselves, the wind, and their equipment.

These guys (and I include myself in this group), are very patient about staying out of the areas that have been scouted months prior to the hunt. Often times these areas are travel "corridors" and terrain features which rarely change and are most active during times of peak deer movement.

We are patient to wait for optimum movement days when the wind is right. If things are not right, we do not hunt.

This is where the time issue comes into play. It is hard to do this when you only have week ends in which to hunt. One needs MUCH time to pursue mature deer year after year on land with which you have no control, and would not dare leave a camera.

I do not recommend this type of hunting to anyone. It is lonely, boring, and difficult.

There is, however, an edge that you can gain.
That edge is so overlooked it almost sickens me to reflect back on the many times I have met those who want it all, but are un-willing to do what it takes to get it.
That edge is ones equipment and the hunters ability to use it. PERFECT practice and preparing for that ONE quick moment (ALL of my biggest buck kills offered ten seconds or less to get the shot off before they were GONE) takes commitment.

The easy part is the practice. The hard part is the opportunity.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3283875 - 07/06/13 03:20 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
That is a gun I NEVER shot "for fun."

.58 caliber elephant thumper! \:D
With no recoil pad!


Yup. Hand-poured 620 grn Civil War Minnieball in front of 120 grns of FFg Goex. Brass butt plate. Recoil is punishing, to say the least.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283887 - 07/06/13 03:38 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
This is where the time issue comes into play. It is hard to do this when you only have week ends in which to hunt. One needs MUCH time to pursue mature deer


This is my biggest downfall. Having a limited amount of time to hunt kills me. Going to work on a 30 degree morning, no wind on a November 14th morning . Not only that, but the uncontrollable factor: warm weather in the cruising phase for your particular area. Nothing gets under my skin more.

Setting up a stand in January and having 10 months worth of anticipation for that set up and never getting the chance to hunt it...been in that situation more times than I care to remember.

 Quote:
The easy part is the practice. The hard part is the opportunity.


Very well said
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3283934 - 07/06/13 04:36 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
BigSatt
10 Point


Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 3787
Loc: Northern Middle Tn.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
That is a gun I NEVER shot "for fun."

.58 caliber elephant thumper! \:D
With no recoil pad!


Yup. Hand-poured 620 grn Civil War Minnieball in front of 120 grns of FFg Goex. Brass butt plate. Recoil is punishing, to say the least.




Ouch!!!
_________________________
Nothing Great is ever achieved without enthusiasm.

Top
#3283981 - 07/06/13 05:31 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BigSatt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BigSatt
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
That is a gun I NEVER shot "for fun."

.58 caliber elephant thumper! \:D
With no recoil pad!


Yup. Hand-poured 620 grn Civil War Minnieball in front of 120 grns of FFg Goex. Brass butt plate. Recoil is punishing, to say the least.


Ouch!!!


If you don't set the gun right, it will break your collarbone for sure.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283983 - 07/06/13 05:32 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
Not only that, but the uncontrollable factor: warm weather in the cruising phase for your particular area. Nothing gets under my skin more.


Oh, do I hate that scenario, and it seems to happen almost every year.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3283997 - 07/06/13 05:46 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
Yes it does.
And I DO have the flexibility to hunt as needed. AND STILL MISS some of the best days.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3284011 - 07/06/13 06:02 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
It is only the weekends for me, though I am able to allot about 6 days of PTO for hunting during the weekdays throughout each season. Usually spread out between the 2nd and 3rd week of November, but will adjust accordingly pending on weather...I hope every year for cool (45 tops), non-windy days between 11/12-11/21. We do see a semi-big surge again around 12/15-12/25, so if the weather is crappy, I will save a day or two for that time period
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3284529 - 07/07/13 09:49 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
I hope every year for cool (45 tops), non-windy days between 11/12-11/21.


Our local cruising phase is the two weeks prior to that, peaking Oct. 28 through Nov. 11.


 Quote:
We do see a semi-big surge again around 12/15-12/25, so if the weather is crappy, I will save a day or two for that time period


We too observe a secondary peak of cruising (first week of December) ON CAMERA but we've never witnessed that 2nd surge in person (seen mature bucks moving during daylight while hunting). Although we keep trying...
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3284538 - 07/07/13 10:02 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17811
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

Offline
Although I have almost unlimited hunting time and spend much of it hanging off the side of a tree I've preached on Tndeer many times in the past about hunting "prime time"; especially if your hunting time is limited. If you're going to be in the woods any time during the season that prime time is your best opportunity at taking a buck. I absolutely hate abnormally warm weather during what should be "prime time". It's as if you wait all year for the opportunity and you miss it knowing it'll be another year of waiting. I'd rather hunt over pressured deer than to be confronted with warm weather.
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER

Top
#3284558 - 07/07/13 10:16 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
I'd rather hunt over pressured deer than to be confronted with warm weather.


Agreed. I would choose over-pressured deer during a cold snap over unpressured deer during a heat wave.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3284609 - 07/07/13 11:15 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
I hope every year for cool (45 tops), non-windy days between 11/12-11/21.


Our local cruising phase is the two weeks prior to that, peaking Oct. 28 through Nov. 11.


I bet your real thrilled about these 2013 season dates. I too hate when muzzy opens so late. I think it would be safe to say that our cruising usually starts around 11/5, but we have a fairly good chasing/following phase starting around 11/16, more so to where I'd rather have the 2nd half of that cruising phase and first 1/2 of the chasing.....if that makes sense. The 2 opportunities I have had on older bucks in the last 2 years were on 11/16 and 11/18...both trailing/herding does. Saw a 2 1/2 in the 2012 season on 11/11 bed with 4 does for over an hour, before just getting up and walking away without even looking back at them. It indicated to me they weren't quite ready. 5 days later, I killed mine following 2 does. At first sight, it was a good indication by their body language that they were in heat or close to it.
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3284728 - 07/07/13 01:54 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
I hope every year for cool (45 tops), non-windy days between 11/12-11/21.


Our local cruising phase is the two weeks prior to that, peaking Oct. 28 through Nov. 11.


I bet your real thrilled about these 2013 season dates. I too hate when muzzy opens so late.


I hate the years when MZ opens as late as it possibly can, like this upcoming year. We're going to miss the vast majority at opportunities on mature bucks. Outside of one rare occasion, we've never seen a mature buck in daylight after Nov. 11th. All of our sightings and kills have occurred before the 12th, with the majority being Nov. 4-11.

Now 3 1/2+ year-old bucks can still be seen/killed on through November, but 4 1/2+ are all during the cruising phase (our peak breeding falls around Nov. 12-19).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3286569 - 07/09/13 01:11 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
I hunt. In my lifetime of hunting and the many deer I have killed I have found there are absolutely no absolutes. If I have time and can get in the woods I hunt. I do have days I have more confidence, windy days, temperature changes, rainy days, etc. I hate clear, still, cold mornings. I hunt them and hunt hard, but have killed the fewest deer then. I like to hunt November. As far as scouting goes, I quit a long time ago. If I do scout, I scout on my way in and out while hunting. Most places I hunt I have little control if any on when other hunters (public land) or family members (private land) are doing whatever it is they may be doing. Other than hunting, I try to stay out of my places to hunt. I do have one more year on a piece of land where last year (in Middle Tennessee) we were averaging seeing 20+ deer a hunt every hunt last year. Before the season, there were as many 50 deer coming into the beans with about 20 of them being bucks. We watched them several evenings. Can't remember exactly how many bucks and deer were coming out and most would not believe it unless they saw it, tah is what the guys and a girl who went with me to watch them, but there were over 20 bucks some afternoons coming out, one bachelor group (the guys hunting the farm beside us had a trail cam pic, all 12 n the pic) had a dozen bucks in it, 1 was pushing 150" and several were in the 120" + range. It was crazy. I passed on many of them hoping to get a chance at the largest deer I saw, never got it. Then one of the family members started hunting everywhere (purchased a muzzleloader put a scope on it, never shot it and could not understand why they couldn't hit a deer), walking through the bedding areas, put ground blinds in the bedding areas (one of them I could climb and watch from 200 yards had 6 rubs on cedars as big as my thigh), etc. and pretty much did not see many of the bucks after that. Hopefully this I can get a chance to kill one of the better bucks. It is for sure loaded. But I pretty much do not pay any attention to most things. I do firmly believe it is not a bad thing to let yong bucks live and to shoot mature does. I did not shoot any there because the family did not want them shot. This year they said it does not matter, so I will probably kill several does. Unbelievable is all I can the amount of deer I saw last year there.

Edited by Headhunter (07/09/13 01:54 PM)
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3286579 - 07/09/13 01:15 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
BuckHunter511
6 Point


Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 751
Loc: Cumberland County,Tennessee, U...

Offline
BSK, if your ever in the Crossville area give me a shout. I would love to have you help me scout out a piece of property that can and has produced for others before we bought the land, but am having a hard time hunting it successfully.
_________________________
Better a good day of catching fish, than a life time of crabs.

Top
#3286592 - 07/09/13 01:27 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BowGuy84]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2542
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BowGuy84
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
 Originally Posted By: redblood
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I agree that consistently killing old, wary deer, year after year, is far more than luck or time spent in the woods. Luck and time spent are helpful, but knowledge and skill are far more important, and can always be found attributal to consistent success.



i know of one guy i consider an expert at it and he told me, the key is not knowing when to hunt, it is knowing when not to hunt. most hunter overeducate the deer with a blue collar worksmanship approach.


Agreed!


I totally agree.

I like to hunt butin many instances I don't hunt even the same property that my best bucks are on if the situations aren't right.


I definitely agree, and I've been hunting a pretty long time and I just figured this out 2 years ago. Kind of pathetic in hindsight, but hey I had to school myself as I didn't grow up deer hunting with my father like so many. My uncle who got me started is unfortunately somewhat of a member of the Whitetail Fallacy community so I had to un-learn some things too \:\) .
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3286644 - 07/09/13 03:02 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
MattR
8 Point


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: Nashville

Offline
This thread has had some very good information and opinions. 5 star thread IMO
_________________________
Corpsman Up!

Top
#3286711 - 07/09/13 04:19 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: MattR]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
BSK, the majority of our mature buck sightings and kills are the week before thanksgiving and the week after. Rarely see mature bucks the first week or 2 of November. This is from over 30 years of hunting in Middle Tennessee , the past 20 or so years I am in the woods a lot every day during November and that covers hunting in Clarksville, Springfield, Lynchburg, Murfreesboro, Lavergne, Unionville, Brentwood, Nashville, Franklin, Giles County, and places I have forgotten, and it does not matter what the weather is, hot or cold. I have watched some of the absolute daylight chasin I have ever seen, even what you see on tv shows, in 60+ degree weather. The majority of our best hunting is those 2 weeks. Generally, the more wind the better the hunting. Still days are the worst.

With that said, mature buck sightings after December 1 are very rare.


Edited by Headhunter (07/09/13 04:26 PM)
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3286748 - 07/09/13 04:55 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BuckHunter511]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BuckHunter511
BSK, if your ever in the Crossville area give me a shout. I would love to have you help me scout out a piece of property that can and has produced for others before we bought the land, but am having a hard time hunting it successfully.


LOL- Do you have any idea what he charges for that? \:\)
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3286770 - 07/09/13 05:30 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Headhunter
BSK, the majority of our mature buck sightings and kills are the week before thanksgiving and the week after. Rarely see mature bucks the first week or 2 of November. This is from over 30 years of hunting in Middle Tennessee , the past 20 or so years I am in the woods a lot every day during November and that covers hunting in Clarksville, Springfield, Lynchburg, Murfreesboro, Lavergne, Unionville, Brentwood, Nashville, Franklin, Giles County, and places I have forgotten, and it does not matter what the weather is, hot or cold. I have watched some of the absolute daylight chasin I have ever seen, even what you see on tv shows, in 60+ degree weather. The majority of our best hunting is those 2 weeks. Generally, the more wind the better the hunting. Still days are the worst.

With that said, mature buck sightings after December 1 are very rare.


That's fascinating stuff Headhunter. Thanks for posting it.

I bet everyone on this site has no idea just how much information I absorb from you all! It all gets filed in the memory bank for later rumination and comparative analysis.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3286782 - 07/09/13 05:44 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: bowriter]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12724
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
 Originally Posted By: BuckHunter511
BSK, if your ever in the Crossville area give me a shout. I would love to have you help me scout out a piece of property that can and has produced for others before we bought the land, but am having a hard time hunting it successfully.


LOL- Do you have any idea what he charges for that? \:\)


Plus he has a reputation for destroying hotel rooms. I'm telling you, He's the "Joe Walsh" of deer biology.
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

http://www.GoCarnivore.com

Top
#3286847 - 07/09/13 07:07 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Poser]
BuckHunter511
6 Point


Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 751
Loc: Cumberland County,Tennessee, U...

Offline
Bahahaha
 Originally Posted By: Poser
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
 Originally Posted By: BuckHunter511
BSK, if your ever in the Crossville area give me a shout. I would love to have you help me scout out a piece of property that can and has produced for others before we bought the land, but am having a hard time hunting it successfully.


LOL- Do you have any idea what he charges for that? \:\)


Plus he has a reputation for destroying hotel rooms. I'm telling you, He's the "Joe Walsh" of deer biology.
_________________________
Better a good day of catching fish, than a life time of crabs.

Top
#3286853 - 07/09/13 07:13 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BuckHunter511]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BuckHunter511
Bahahaha
 Originally Posted By: Poser
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
 Originally Posted By: BuckHunter511
BSK, if your ever in the Crossville area give me a shout. I would love to have you help me scout out a piece of property that can and has produced for others before we bought the land, but am having a hard time hunting it successfully.


LOL- Do you have any idea what he charges for that? \:\)


Plus he has a reputation for destroying hotel rooms. I'm telling you, He's the "Joe Walsh" of deer biology.


Hotel rooms? I thought it was 4 wheelers and trucks with discs behind them?......... \:D


Edited by JCDEERMAN (07/09/13 07:14 PM)
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3286873 - 07/09/13 07:47 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
4-wheelers on train tracks
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3286933 - 07/09/13 08:46 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
WiredToHunt
Button


Registered: 07/08/13
Posts: 2
Loc: MI, USA

Offline
Hey Guys - Just thought I'd chime in. I'm Mark Kenyon, author of Wired To Hunt.com - the blog which you guys were glowingly referencing in the beginning. Thanks for the kind words ... \:\)

Couple questions for you and a few clarifying points.

First off, regarding the rut predictions article. I personally am not the one making or promoting these predictions. I merely am sharing those put out there by Charles Alsheimer and encouraging a dialogue about it. If you had read the full article, you would see that I explained that and also offered alternative view points on rut timing from other whitetail hunters. I definitely appreciate feedback though - so other than presenting one viewpoint, sharing my opinion, and offering alternatives - is there a different way I could have shared this information that would have been more suitable to your tastes?

Secondly - there were numerous comments about the author trying to come off as a biologist or an expert. I'm not sure if this was directed at me personally, or at Alshiemer. But I just want to make sure everyone is clear on the fact that I'm not a biologist, nor am I trying to come off as one. I'm just a 25 year guy that absolutely loves everything about whitetails, and is just trying to share my passion with the world.

Secondly, regarding my article about the fact that "Anyone Can Kill TV Quality Bucks". I'll stand by that til the day I die. But feel free to share your opposing views, I'm happy to have a friendly debate.

My overall stance is this. Some people have better circumstances (money, land, location, etc), some people don't. Those people with better circumstances definitely have a better chance killing mature bucks in many instances. BUT - those people with the less fortunate circumstances can still kill good bucks, they just may need to do it differently, it won't be as easy, it won't be as often, etc. But no matter what your limitation - I don't care what it is - you can make tough choices that will allow you to kill better deer, if you want it bad enough.

For example, let's say you are a broke college kid, going to the University of Tennesee. (I can relate, as only a few years ago this was me, but at Michigan State University). This kid has hardly any money, is in school most the week, and then works 30-40 hours on top of that to pay for tuition. On top of that he owns no land and his family doesn't have any either.

Even with all that against him, he can choose not to go party on the weekends and save that money up. He can choose maybe not to go to Football games, or not to go out to eat. He can choose to live differently to save the money needed to buy the gear he needs, or maybe to pay for gas to drive to Ohio to hunt public land. He can choose not to hang out with a girlfriend all the time, and instead travel to ohio for day scouting trips. Etc, etc, etc. The examples can go on and on. If you want to chase big bucks, you can make the tough choices to put yourself in a better position to do so.

It may not be easy, convenient,etc. All I'm saying is average people can put themselves in the position to get "big" bucks if they want it bad enough. It's possible. That's all my point was.

Anyways - I'm happy to have a dialogue on any of these topics. I certainly respect opposing views, and can appreciate that we might have differences of opinion. I'd just ask that you be open and respectful of others views, and then also be careful about where your flinging mud, and the claims you're making.

Thanks - Mark Kenyon - WiredToHunt.com

Top
#3287009 - 07/09/13 10:02 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: WiredToHunt]
Master Chief
10 Point


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2708
Loc: Henderson County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: WiredToHunt
Secondly - there were numerous comments about the author trying to come off as a biologist or an expert. I'm not sure if this was directed at me personally, or at Alshiemer. But I just want to make sure everyone is clear on the fact that I'm not a biologist, nor am I trying to come off as one. I'm just a 25 year guy that absolutely loves everything about whitetails, and is just trying to share my passion with the world.

Secondly, regarding my article about the fact that "Anyone Can Kill TV Quality Bucks". I'll stand by that til the day I die. But feel free to share your opposing views, I'm happy to have a friendly debate.

Thanks - Mark Kenyon - WiredToHunt.com


First of all, congrats on your success with whitetail deer.

Secondly, I certainly don't agree with the majority of your writing, no offense, and I feel others have done an excellent job pointing out the misleading information in your articles. Perhaps you can take their information and use it to better yourself as not only a writer but as a hunter. I would particullarly advise that you don't make light of what BSK and bowriter say. Reason being, BSK is one of the most intelligent biologists you'll have the pleasure of talking to. Over my few years of membership on TnDeer I can honestly say he has tought me more than anyone I personally know, my dad included. As for bowriter(John Sloan)-he is a very seasoned outdoor writer and hunter. He has the years of experience, the inherent knowledge from said experience, and the artistic ability to manipulate words in a fashion that will entertain all. If you can find the time, you might want to consider looking up some of his work.

Secondly, good luck with your writing and hunting.


Edited by Master Chief (07/09/13 10:02 PM)
_________________________
It's not what you got, it's what you give-Tesla

Don't go ridin' on that long black train ;\)

Top
#3287050 - 07/09/13 11:35 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Vermin93
12 Point


Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 5639
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
I bet your real thrilled about these 2013 season dates. I too hate when muzzy opens so late.


I hate the years when MZ opens as late as it possibly can, like this upcoming year. We're going to miss the vast majority at opportunities on mature bucks.


As you know there are a number of potential solutions to this issue. All of them end in "bow", and one of them looks to be relatively easy. Why miss it when you don't have to? Why not buy a crossbow and some bolts and lock and load?


Edited by Vermin93 (07/10/13 07:36 AM)
_________________________
“The more I read and the more I listen, the more apparent it is that our society suffers from an alarming degree of public ignorance” - Retired Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor

Top
#3287066 - 07/10/13 12:29 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Vermin93]
catman529
spiderboy
16 Point


Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 16293
Loc: Franklin TN

Offline
Good to hear from the author - welcome to the site Mark. Seems like you are a decent guy and one I would not mind hunting with at all. I am fairly new to hunting myself, with about 3 yrs experience. I learned a whole lot from the internet, mainly this website and Youtube videos, and in person from people I have met on this site. Hope you decide to stick around for a while. From what I saw in your article I did notice that you were not promoting Alsheimer's theory as fact, I saw you were opening it to discussion. Good to see someone taking the criticism as constructive and not taking offense to it... Bet we could learn a few things from you if you hang around here at all. Also if there is one person you can learn anything about whitetail from, it is BSK. Just don't ask him for bowhunting advice, he's a bit of a wimp there. \:D

I'm not much for reading blogs, but I might have to browse around your site a bit cause it looks pretty good.
_________________________
Haven't been this excited about deer season

...since last deer season

Top
#3287091 - 07/10/13 05:13 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: catman529]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
Mark Kenyon wrote:
"Secondly - there were numerous comments about the author trying to come off as a biologist or an expert. I'm not sure if this was directed at me personally, or at Alshiemer. But I just want to make sure everyone is clear on the fact that I'm not a biologist, nor am I trying to come off as one. I'm just a 25 year guy that absolutely loves everything about whitetails, and is just trying to share my passion with the world."

"I'm just a 25 year guy"

After looking at your picture and re-reading the article. I assume this statement means you are 25 years old. NOT 25 years of experience.

If this is true, then in the world of deer hunting, assuming that you have gone to school, (I am assuming a University,, UTK maybe?) and participated in the work force, you have hunted RELATIVELY little.

I only read this particular article by you. And when I say "by you" it mostly is you quoting others.
You admit to NOT being a biologist. I am not clear on wether or not you consider yourself an "expert".

I did not get the IMPRESSION, after re-reading the article, that you were trying to come off as any kind of an expert. Rather it seemed you were re-stating MANY viewpoints discussed by many well known outdoor "experts" on their opinion of the rut.

I actually get a kick out of reading these predictions.
Timing the rut is not complicated. (and when I say "RUT", I am referring to the time when a hunter needs to be in the woods hunting for cruising MATURE bucks).
It is really quite simple. Hunt as much as you can from late October through early December. PERIOD. As much as you can.
If you only get one week, hunt mid November. Hunt near the 10th in the mid west. Near Thanksgiving in the Southeast. And around Christmas in the South.
But timing the best days is a roll of the dice.

Only God knows.


I actually enjoy reading and watching much of the information put out by several of the authors you quoted.

But in the end, after all the smoke is cleared, I believe the word, or use of the word "expert", is a relative term.

As mentioned above, BSK,is a published author named Bryan Kinkel (I think I spelled this right). He is paid to professionally manage land for owners to achieve desired results in their deer and or wildlife herd.

His knowledge on the way in which land and animals relate to each other is impressive. I am told he is very good at what he does. I have read much of his information and believe he is very accurate and factual on what he writes. I do not think he says ANYTHING without there being VOLUMES of documentation and observation made to back his data up. He will put up a graph (or TEN), with color, so fast it will make your head hurt.

He does not claim to be a deer HUNTING "expert". (I am not even sure he is a degreed "biologist".) He has written here many times that he struggles with the same things that many of us also struggle with in deer hunting. He freely admits he is NOT the best mature buck hunter around and has "seen the light" about hunting big, mature bucks. (an attitude I developed years ago)

He IS, however and by all accounts, a deer habitat MANAGER.

And trust me when I say this, if you are looking for an expert on deer biology, degree or not, this is your guy. (or at least one of them). And he has the graphs to back it up.
How to kill the deer, maybe not so much. But EVERYTHING else about a deer, its habits, life, patterns, etc. YEP...BSK.

Also, (and I find this true with several of my hunting friends for some weird reason) WEATHER. He is also pretty good at weather stuff. Go figure.
Now if only he could figure out how to use all this stuff, and also control target panic as it relates to killing deer...

The nice thing about BSK is this. He does not claim to be an expert. But he is. At least at what he knows.

And if you read his stuff, and know how to extract the information he is writing to your benefit in killing deer,(something he himself probably does not do well enough) it might just help to kill a mature buck.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3287147 - 07/10/13 07:45 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
WiredToHunt
Button


Registered: 07/08/13
Posts: 2
Loc: MI, USA

Offline
Thanks for the feedback guys. Couple things...

First off, Master Chief, could you possibly share with me what other threads discuss this "misleading information" that others have found on Wired To Hunt? If there is something that I made a mistake on, and is legitimately wrong, I'd love to be made aware of it, so that I can amend things. Secondly, I'd like to offer up to any and all of you, if you have an issue with something I've written about, a theory I have, etc - rather than posting here and bashing it - I'd encourage you to just send me a direct email. I'm always open to feedback, and like I said, if there is legitimately something wrong with something I put out there - I want to fix that. All I'm trying to do is share the lessons I've learned along the way with others - so if there's something I can do to be more helpful, I want to do that. Please feel free to shoot me a note at wiredtohunt@gmail.com any time.

Secondly, Catman, thanks for the kind words and open mind. I hope you get a chance to explore the website, and I appreciate it!

102 - Yes, I meant to say I am 25 years old. And while I have been hunting since the day I could walk, it is still true that I have relatively less experience than some. As you said, I'm not claiming to be an expert or a biologist or anything. All I am is a passionate hunter, who is trying to share my lessons learned with others.

Secondly, by no means am I arguing with BSK or Bowriter or questioning their expertise. Sounds like they are great hunters/managers/writers/etc. They don't seem to care for me or my website, and that's perfectly fine. No worries.

All I ask is that people don't rush to judge before they actually check out the article/website/etc for themselves. It's perfectly understandable that not everyone is going to like the site or agree with everything I say - that's natural. But there are also many, many respected hunters, biologists, writers, etc who are very supportive of Wired To Hunt and what I share. You'll see on my About Page, for example, that numerous staff members of the Quality Deer Management Association, Dr. Grant Woods, and numerous others have vouched for the quality of Wired To Hunt. So for whatever that's worth.

All that said, I'm an open book, open to feedback, and fine with others disagreeing with me, etc - just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. Thanks for hearing me out.

Mark

Top
#3287284 - 07/10/13 09:53 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: WiredToHunt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: WiredToHunt
First off, regarding the rut predictions article. I personally am not the one making or promoting these predictions. I merely am sharing those put out there by Charles Alsheimer and encouraging a dialogue about it. If you had read the full article, you would see that I explained that and also offered alternative view points on rut timing from other whitetail hunters. I definitely appreciate feedback though - so other than presenting one viewpoint, sharing my opinion, and offering alternatives - is there a different way I could have shared this information that would have been more suitable to your tastes?


WiredToHunt,

Thank you for taking the time to come to this site and defend yourself. Not only does that take courage, I'm sure your time is not unlimited.

As to your article on rut timing, although I'm glad you presented "alternative viewpoints," I was sadly disappointed that that was how you described and presented them. By presenting them as "alternative viewpoints" you are insinuating or giving your readers the impression that the first viewpoint presented (Charlie's) is the "standard" or accepted viewpoint, while the "alternative" viewpoints are secondary or even controversial viewpoints. If you wanted to present factual information to your readers, I would have hoped you would present the facts first, followed by alternative theories, and then all of the evidence against those theories (explaining why they are secondary or controversial).

As much as a like Charlie personally (I know him and have worked with him) and respect his experience and knowledge of wildlife photography, his theory on full moon timing driving breeding timing has been completely and unequivocally disproven. Charlie and LaRoche have been able to provide NO scientific evidence backing up their claims, and ALL scientific evidence, and it is an absolutely mountain of evidence, clearly proves local breeding timings change little from year to year, and absolutely do NOT follow full moon cycles. And this is true everywhere in the whitetail's range.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3287472 - 07/10/13 12:22 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: catman529]
MattR
8 Point


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: Nashville

Offline
Ok, I don't think it was presented as factual information but I still just really don't understand why it's even being talked about as if it could be true. The thing is, is that you don't earn people's trust like bsk and bowriter have on this forum without knowing what the hell your talking about on a very consistant basis. I believe both of them probably spend a fair amount of time trying to re-educate hunters because of various articles that are given as fact when they are far from the truth. That has to be very frustrating and the sad fact is that there is so much misinformation out there that it makes it hard for someone like me, who is still trying to learn, to be able to know what information is right and what is wrong. I guess you just have to have to decifer the bull crap and know who to trust for accurate information.

Edited by MattR (07/10/13 12:26 PM)
_________________________
Corpsman Up!

Top
#3287605 - 07/10/13 02:30 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: MattR]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27527
Loc: TN

Offline
Wired to hunt, good to see you here defending what you believe. I will have to agree with BSK however as the Moon has likely the LEAST to do with Rut timing, out of the few factors we have access to look at (weather, geographic location, herd density/health, etc) What your really dealing with (writing/advising readers) from a hunters viewpoint, is increased daylight activity, especially mature bucks, related to the rut. In this instance Weather is undoubtedly the biggest influence on daylight activity! The rut will vary little (only a few days) from year to year in a given location, its the weather that determines how much daylight activity that hunters will see during this period. Sure other factors play a small role, Pressure, moon phase, herd health, etc, but weather is the dominant factor!
The problem with weather is theres no good way to make money from predicting it to hunters!!! Which at the end of the day is all Charlies (moon wheel) is, a gimmick to make money from gullible or less experienced hunters that don't yet know better. Im not bashing him or anyone as I know he's just tapping in to the endless resource of those who want the latest gimmick or magic tool to make them successful.
Most outdoor writers can be lumped together in the fact that they are writing articles based on their opinion of different situations, and that's all it really is most times is an opinion, as very few actually have any documented research to back up most any claim they write about. All this being said, again, Im not bashing any of them as they are just trying to make a living like most everyone else, no different than all the misinformation out there on most any subject. My opinion of the matter is, many people want to believe much of what they read/hear simply to keep themselves entertained and give them reason to try the unlimited amounts of opinions and options out there.
I do see where BSK stands on so many of these hunting shows making absolute false claims, as it really makes it hard to convince young and less experienced hunters that the reality of hunting isn't what you see on TV!!!!
EXPERIENCE is absolutely the best teacher and there is NO substitute for it!
Good luck with the business and have a great season!

Top
#3287615 - 07/10/13 02:39 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: MattR]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
MattR,
Here are a few facts for you to remember.
Hunting deer, like fishing, is most often successful with "wet time" (time your fishing line is left in the water in PERCEIVED productive places). Wet time here relating to stand time or hunting time.

Here is a good strategy for success.
First of all, decide what it is you want out of your deer hunting. Is it to kill deer, kill bucks, kill mature bucks, or kill large antlered bucks over 130 inches of antler?

Once this decision is made it is important to remember, like fishing for bass over 10 pounds, that you need to hunt where these animals EXIST in HUNTABLE numbers. Just like big bass in Florida, big antlered bucks in the Mid West. Maybe not old. But per AGE CLASS...BIG antlered (especially when compared to the Southeast).

If you want to get good at killing, hunt Unit L. 3 ANTLERLESS per day.

But whatever goals you set as a hunter, be realistic. Set achievable goals.
Do not expect to kill many Boone and Crockett bucks in Rutherford County. Or Wilson, or Sumner.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3287625 - 07/10/13 02:50 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Winchester]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Wired to hunt, good to see you here defending what you believe. I will have to agree with BSK however as the Moon has likely the LEAST to do with Rut timing, out of the few factors we have access to look at (weather, geographic location, herd density/health, etc) What your really dealing with (writing/advising readers) from a hunters viewpoint, is increased daylight activity, especially mature bucks, related to the rut. In this instance Weather is undoubtedly the biggest influence on daylight activity! The rut will vary little (only a few days) from year to year in a given location, its the weather that determines how much daylight activity that hunters will see during this period. Sure other factors play a small role, Pressure, moon phase, herd health, etc, but weather is the dominant factor!
The problem with weather is theres no good way to make money from predicting it to hunters!!! Which at the end of the day is all Charlies (moon wheel) is, a gimmick to make money from gullible or less experienced hunters that don't yet know better. Im not bashing him or anyone as I know he's just tapping in to the endless resource of those who want the latest gimmick or magic tool to make them successful.
Most outdoor writers can be lumped together in the fact that they are writing articles based on their opinion of different situations, and that's all it really is most times is an opinion, as very few actually have any documented research to back up most any claim they write about. All this being said, again, Im not bashing any of them as they are just trying to make a living like most everyone else, no different than all the misinformation out there on most any subject. My opinion of the matter is, many people want to believe much of what they read/hear simply to keep themselves entertained and give them reason to try the unlimited amounts of opinions and options out there.
I do see where BSK stands on so many of these hunting shows making absolute false claims, as it really makes it hard to convince young and less experienced hunters that the reality of hunting isn't what you see on TV!!!!
EXPERIENCE is absolutely the best teacher and there is NO substitute for it!
Good luck with the business and have a great season!


And there it is!!!

I appreciate your passion Wiredtohunt, but each year I hear a story or three about a disappointed hunter that became that way aafter failing to fill their tag with a Pope and Young or Boone and Crockett. Even though the deer thay killed was a FINE example of a mature buck for that area.
I am not guessing here, I AM CERTAIN that todays TV "pro's" are totally responsible for all the mis-information and mis leading of our new comers to the sport of hunting.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3287633 - 07/10/13 03:04 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Winchester]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Wired to hunt, good to see you here defending what you believe. I will have to agree with BSK however as the Moon has likely the LEAST to do with Rut timing, out of the few factors we have access to look at (weather, geographic location, herd density/health, etc) What your really dealing with (writing/advising readers) from a hunters viewpoint, is increased daylight activity, especially mature bucks, related to the rut. In this instance Weather is undoubtedly the biggest influence on daylight activity! The rut will vary little (only a few days) from year to year in a given location, its the weather that determines how much daylight activity that hunters will see during this period. Sure other factors play a small role, Pressure, moon phase, herd health, etc, but weather is the dominant factor!
The problem with weather is theres no good way to make money from predicting it to hunters!!! Which at the end of the day is all Charlies (moon wheel) is, a gimmick to make money from gullible or less experienced hunters that don't yet know better. Im not bashing him or anyone as I know he's just tapping in to the endless resource of those who want the latest gimmick or magic tool to make them successful.
Most outdoor writers can be lumped together in the fact that they are writing articles based on their opinion of different situations, and that's all it really is most times is an opinion, as very few actually have any documented research to back up most any claim they write about. All this being said, again, Im not bashing any of them as they are just trying to make a living like most everyone else, no different than all the misinformation out there on most any subject. My opinion of the matter is, many people want to believe much of what they read/hear simply to keep themselves entertained and give them reason to try the unlimited amounts of opinions and options out there.
I do see where BSK stands on so many of these hunting shows making absolute false claims, as it really makes it hard to convince young and less experienced hunters that the reality of hunting isn't what you see on TV!!!!
EXPERIENCE is absolutely the best teacher and there is NO substitute for it!
Good luck with the business and have a great season!


Winchester, I don't think anyone could have summed it up any better. Very well said, sir!
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3287642 - 07/10/13 03:19 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
MattR
8 Point


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: Nashville

Offline
You are 100% right 102. I think I know a good little bit about deer hunting, not an expert or anything close but I know enough to get by, and I definately know what I want out of it. Last season I learned more about deer hunting and what it takes to get mature bucks than I ever have since hunting as a kid. I hope I can learn as much this year as I did the last. One of my kicks out of it all is the "why" of deer hunting. I am absolutely intrigued by it. I just have to watch out who I "learn" some of these things from. There isn't anything that equates to time in the woods but I like to learn why, for what ever reason.
_________________________
Corpsman Up!

Top
#3287721 - 07/10/13 04:34 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: MattR]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
Winchester nailed it dead on. And MattR, I started asking "why" sometime around 1970. Funny thing is, most times I go to the woods, I still do.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3287843 - 07/10/13 07:23 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: bowriter]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
MattR and bowriter.....when I started asking myself "WHY" was when I started to find answers (as im sure both of you have concluded) and become better on my main goal for being in the woods. I have posted in another thread (that is eluding me at the moment) of by asking yourself "WHY" being of big help.

I completely agree 100% with both of you
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3288029 - 07/10/13 10:03 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
I just have to quote this again...

Winchester wrote:
"The problem with weather is theres no good way to make money from predicting it to hunters!!! Which at the end of the day is all Charlies (moon wheel) is, a gimmick to make money from gullible or less experienced hunters that don't yet know better. Im not bashing him or anyone as I know he's just tapping in to the endless resource of those who want the latest gimmick or magic tool to make them successful."

And my FAVORITE part:
"EXPERIENCE is absolutely the best teacher and there is NO substitute for it!"

Direct and to the point!

Simple, truth!
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3288456 - 07/11/13 10:49 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
WiredToHunt,

Per your second point about the article/video "Can you kill deer like they do on TV," if that were the only point raised, I think your answer is a well-argued and accurate answer. Yes, any hunter willing to make the sacrifices necessary, and spend the man hours and travel hours necessary to find areas that contain these caliber bucks and learn to hunt these caliber bucks, CAN kill bucks "like they do on TV," although as you admitted, probably not as frequently, (due to the types of properties on which the TV shows are filmed).

My problem isn't with that answer to that question. I believe you answered the title question quite well, but throughout the discussion, you appear to have had a problem defining what the question or questions actually are. Is it just the question of whether hunters can kill big bucks like as seen on TV hunting shows, or is the question about the reality of TV shows, or about why hunters on TV shows are able to kill so many monster bucks? Both in the opening written section of the article and in the video, numerous different common hunter beliefs involving these questions are quoted, and you say you disagree and will dispute these beliefs. Yet often, especially in the video, the common hunter beliefs you mention are, in my opinion, either not understood, not addressed, not disputed, disputed inaccurately, or are actually confirmed.

To make my point, let me first quote from the first major paragraph of the article:

"Often times people complain about the fact that the hunting shown on TV or DVDs is not realistic. The quantity and quality of the deer being featured on TV today are supposedly out of reach for the Average Joe."

And near the beginning of the video, you state the problem, speaking as one of those disbelieving hunters:

"When you watch deer hunting TV shows or DVDs, it's just not realistic. There's all these huge deer, and there's this kind of hunting success they're having; just isn't obtainable for the average guy."

And of course, you then go on to make the accurate point that hunters can kill big bucks like seen on TV if they are willing to work hard enough, sacrifice enough, and hunt in areas where big bucks exist. However, is that the point hunters are trying to make when they say TV hunting shows are unrealistic; with "all these huge deer, and there's this kind of hunting success they're having?" In my opinion, you are missing the point of their criticisms. They are saying the success of the hunters on the shows is unrealistic--how many big bucks they see, how frequently they see these bucks, how easy the TV show makes the hunting look, etc. Having been present when some of the "big name" shows were being filmed, I can promise you those hunters are right in many cases. Considering how much editing must be done to fit an entire 4 or 5 day hunt into a 20 minute show, and the way many of these shows are purposefully edited, the final product is a visual time-line and representation of events that is HIGHLY unrealistic. Often, when viewing a show after final editing, I see no resemblance to the actual hunt I observed or helped set up. The show creators want to tell their story a particular way and will edit events until the story is the one they want told, no matter actual events.

Maybe this seems like semantics, but I promise you there is a huge difference. I believe most hunters realize if they're willing to make the time and effort, and hunt in parts of the country that regularly grow big bucks, they too could kill one. But that isn't what most hunters are saying when they complain that "TV hunting shows are unrealistic." They are speaking of the hunting experience as it is portrayed on the show, and in most cases, they are right.

Another "hunter belief" that is repeated several times, and which involves a common management recommendation you criticize, concerns the size of bucks regularly seen/killed on the shows. Twice you mention the recommendation of lowering expectations compared to what is seen on TV shows. In your opening paragraph, you wrote:

"...many folks today are urging hunters to set their expectations lower, because they can’t expect to have the same success as those 'privileged' few on TV."

And early in your video you state:

"...I see lots of articles talking about 'lower your expectations. You don't need to shoot for those giant deer. It's not obtainable in your neck of the woods'."

And that last highlighted section is critical: "...in your neck of the woods." Again, most hunters realize they can travel to Iowa or Illinois to see and kill big bucks, but when they complain about how unrealistic TV hunting shows are, they mean FOR THEIR AREA. And for most hunters outside of the agricultural Midwest, that’s an absolute biological fact. Unless a hunter hunts in a decent soil-quality area, with at least moderate amounts of agriculture habitat, even the fully mature bucks they are hunting rarely grow trophy caliber antlers. This is especially true across much of the Southeast. Our lower quality soils and big woods, pine plantation, or coastal plain habitat do not grow large antlers often, even on fully mature bucks.

In your video, you state:

"Even if I had no land that I owned; if I had no land that I even had permission to hunt on; if you are willing to work, you can find that public ground where there are big bucks."

Now much depends on whether you mean in that hunter's home area. If that is what you mean, for hunters in the Southeast, I would say 80% of the time you would be dead wrong. Much of the Southeast is not conducive to growing large antlers, and many heavily hunted public lands not only have low buck age structures (fewer mature bucks), but poor antler growth due to low habitat quality can literally mean there are NO trophy caliber bucks on some of those public lands, and at best, such a low density of trophy bucks that harvesting one would be at astronomically low odds.

In fact, when attempting to dispel the belief about “location” being important, you state:

“Lots of folks are saying ‘That’s why these guys on TV are killing big deer. They’re only killing big deer because they have lots of money, or they’re only killing big deer because they hunt in Kansas.’ I’m going to disagree, at least with the first part.

So you’re not disagreeing with hunters saying the TV hunters are killing big bucks because they hunt in Kansas. In fact, you confirm location is important when you state:

“…there is the complaint that ‘…there just aren’t big bucks in my area or my state. …there just aren’t deer here or it’s not as easy to hunt deer here as it is in Iowa or Kansas.’ Again, there is some truth to that. But there’s no reason you’re stuck hunting in any one location.”

So location IS important! Much of TV hunting show success IS because they are hunting in Iowa or Kansas, and if a hunter wants to have similar success, they need to hunt there too. Now I completely agree with your argument that a person doesn’t have to be rich to hunt these big buck destinations. It can be done on a budget. But that wasn’t the original contention. You said you would dispel each of the four main complaints hunters express about what they see on TV hunting shows. Yet not only did you not dispel all of them, you actually confirmed some of them, especially the idea of location being important.

Again, if the title of the article and video (“Can you kill deer like they do on TV?”) is the only consideration, you made a good argument that a hunter can kill those caliber deer, as long as the hunter is willing to make considerable sacrifices in time, effort, and travel, and with the caveat that kills probably won’t occur as frequently as they do on TV. I agree completely with this part of your argument. However, throughout your narrative, you state you are going to dispel each of the most common beliefs hunters have about TV hunting shows. Then, in my opinion, you not only don’t dispel each of them, you actually confirm some of them. In addition, again in my opinion, I believe you are misinterpreting hunter complaints about TV hunting shows. When hunters say the way hunts are depicted on the shows, and the frequency/size of bucks seen/killed are unrealistic, they mean FOR THEIR AREA. And for the majority of hunters, that would be an accurate statement.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3288629 - 07/11/13 01:24 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
IN MY AREA, most celebrity TV hunters would be eating tag soup. \:D

One thing that does make it "easier" for most of these TV hunters to kill an older buck is the fact that most shows are filmed in areas with VERY LITTLE if any prior hunting. What I'm saying is that deer move around a lot more during daylight when they haven't been hunted much or not hunted at all. Prime examples of this daytime deer movement (and relatively easy hunting) would be say if you were allowed to spend a few days hunting on President's Island or inside Cades Cove.

Top
#3288738 - 07/11/13 03:10 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
IN MY AREA, most celebrity TV hunters would be eating tag soup. \:D

One thing that does make it "easier" for most of these TV hunters to kill an older buck is the fact that most shows are filmed in areas with VERY LITTLE if any prior hunting. What I'm saying is that deer move around a lot more during daylight when they haven't been hunted much or not hunted at all. Prime examples of this daytime deer movement (and relatively easy hunting) would be say if you were allowed to spend a few days hunting on President's Island or inside Cades Cove.


I absolutely agree Wes.

and further more, it isn't just the fact that these deer have low pressure, they often have landowners, guides, scouts (whatever you want to call them) doing stand placement, camera monitoring, and actually long range surveillance.

I know for a fact that there have been many times whereby a TV "pro" will get a call from an outfitter to be told what is being seen and where and when. These high percentage stands are often kept OFF LIMITS to "regular" clients in preparation for the film crew to show up and "endorse" a particular outfitter.

Anyone that has spent much time in front of the TV and watched many deer hunting shows has surely heard of Milk River Montana.
Maybe Hadley Creek Outfitters or McMillan River Adventures. And possibly Southern Sportsmans Lodge.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why these outfits would hold the primo spots for, well, Primos. I would too.

But I agree with BSK on this.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3288765 - 07/11/13 03:27 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
. . . . .it isn't just the fact that these deer have low pressure, they often have landowners, guides, scouts (whatever you want to call them) doing stand placement, camera monitoring, and actually long range surveillance.

. . . . . These high percentage stands are often kept OFF LIMITS to "regular" clients in preparation for the film crew to show up and "endorse" a particular outfitter.

Very true.

All too often, the celebrity "hunter" simply shows up to do the shooting.

Another factor that makes spotting and patterning a particular buck easier in many Mid-West locations (Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, etc.) are the large open areas, whereas much of the Southeast is large wooded areas.

Along these lines, I went to a seminar a few years ago where the celebrity hunter speaker talked about how he got up an extra hour early each morning so he could monitor the multiple trail cams which were piping in the most recent (and real-time) cam pics to multiple monitors in his bedroom. It seemed almost like having GPS collars on each large buck, so you would know exactly where each was located as you headed at for the morning hunt.

After reviewing where all the deer were, which directions they appeared to be traveling, etc., it was much easier to decide which fence row and which stand to hunt and from which direction to approach in order to target a particular buck. The "target" animal in reviewing the live footage could also be in locating the first doe on the farm to come into estrous, and/or any estrous doe that was currently "hot". Go hunt there.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not condemning this hunter for using his real time trail cams, just pointing out that his strategy wouldn't work nearly so well in the pine forests of Georgia or a place like Catoosa WMA. In this particular case, he was doing his own hunting, and certainly, hunting skills are necessary. Just saying geographic location plays heavily into the outcome, including the density of bucks above a certain score or age. And that strategies which work easily and well on a large farm in Iowa may not work at all on in the Cherokee National Forest.

Top
#3288779 - 07/11/13 03:40 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
Master Chief
10 Point


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2708
Loc: Henderson County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
IN MY AREA, most celebrity TV hunters would be eating tag soup. \:D

One thing that does make it "easier" for most of these TV hunters to kill an older buck is the fact that most shows are filmed in areas with VERY LITTLE if any prior hunting. What I'm saying is that deer move around a lot more during daylight when they haven't been hunted much or not hunted at all. Prime examples of this daytime deer movement (and relatively easy hunting) would be say if you were allowed to spend a few days hunting on President's Island or inside Cades Cove.


Exactly.. it also doesn't hurt that they are hunting well managed properties where patterning deer is much easier than an unmanaged WMA in TN..heck, even WI.

I want to see a real hunting show about killing mature bucks, regardless of antler size, on public land. Problem is, most "pro" hunters wouldn't be successful enough to make enough episodes.
_________________________
It's not what you got, it's what you give-Tesla

Don't go ridin' on that long black train ;\)

Top
#3288785 - 07/11/13 03:48 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Master Chief]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Master Chief
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
IN MY AREA, most celebrity TV hunters would be eating tag soup. \:D

One thing that does make it "easier" for most of these TV hunters to kill an older buck is the fact that most shows are filmed in areas with VERY LITTLE if any prior hunting. What I'm saying is that deer move around a lot more during daylight when they haven't been hunted much or not hunted at all. Prime examples of this daytime deer movement (and relatively easy hunting) would be say if you were allowed to spend a few days hunting on President's Island or inside Cades Cove.


Exactly.. it also doesn't hurt that they are hunting well managed properties where patterning deer is much easier than an unmanaged WMA in TN..heck, even WI.

I want to see a real hunting show about killing mature bucks, regardless of antler size, on public land. Problem is, most "pro" hunters wouldn't be successful enough to make enough episodes.


It is not a television show but there is a video that is very similar to what you are talking about. It is called the secrets of Whitetail deer and it is available from Stoney Wolf Productions. Although most of the hunting is on private land, all of it has been hunted and none of the hunts are guided. The hunter does all the scouting, stand hanging and hunting. He even misses a shot or two.

There is a huge problem with a show such as you describe. Only 9-people will watch it and no company will sponsor it. But I will say thhis, as I have said before, some of those tv hunters will do as well as anybody on public land and probably better than most. Some of them are dang good hunters and had to be to get to where they are. It is just that the constraints of tv has ruined them. I beoieve it is called money.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3288869 - 07/11/13 05:19 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
and further more, it isn't just the fact that these deer have low pressure, they often have landowners, guides, scouts (whatever you want to call them) doing stand placement, camera monitoring, and actually long range surveillance.

I know for a fact that there have been many times whereby a TV "pro" will get a call from an outfitter to be told what is being seen and where and when. These high percentage stands are often kept OFF LIMITS to "regular" clients in preparation for the film crew to show up and "endorse" a particular outfitter.


Yup.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against anyone for doing this or trying to make a living by filming/selling hunting shows. More power to them.

But I just wish they would be honest about all of this in the shows. I really think most hunters would understand if it was explained just what these shows have to do to get half a dozen huge bucks kills on film each year. Basically, they don't have the time to "hunt" like most hunters do.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3288872 - 07/11/13 05:22 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Basically, they don't have the time to "hunt" like most hunters do.

Basically, they just show up to make the "shot".

Top
#3288879 - 07/11/13 05:31 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Vermin93]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Vermin93
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
I bet your real thrilled about these 2013 season dates. I too hate when muzzy opens so late.


I hate the years when MZ opens as late as it possibly can, like this upcoming year. We're going to miss the vast majority at opportunities on mature bucks.


As you know there are a number of potential solutions to this issue. All of them end in "bow", and one of them looks to be relatively easy. Why miss it when you don't have to? Why not buy a crossbow and some bolts and lock and load?


As much as I would like to make a silly comment about how much I hate archery hunting, the real reason we do not hunt with bows or crossbows is the number of chances we get at any one particular buck. Although it has happened a handful of times, the vast majority of encounters we've had with old bucks are one-time deals. We get one chance and that's it. I don't want that one chance to be when I've got a 25-yard weapon in my hands and the buck is at 40 yards. Honestly, that really is the biggest reason.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3288925 - 07/11/13 06:59 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Master Chief]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Master Chief
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
IN MY AREA, most celebrity TV hunters would be eating tag soup. \:D

One thing that does make it "easier" for most of these TV hunters to kill an older buck is the fact that most shows are filmed in areas with VERY LITTLE if any prior hunting. What I'm saying is that deer move around a lot more during daylight when they haven't been hunted much or not hunted at all. Prime examples of this daytime deer movement (and relatively easy hunting) would be say if you were allowed to spend a few days hunting on President's Island or inside Cades Cove.


Exactly.. it also doesn't hurt that they are hunting well managed properties where patterning deer is much easier than an unmanaged WMA in TN..heck, even WI.

I want to see a real hunting show about killing mature bucks, regardless of antler size, on public land. Problem is, most "pro" hunters wouldn't be successful enough to make enough episodes.


Same here. That would be a great learning experience. Problem is, it can't be done IMO. Even if it can be done, it has to be done ENOUGH to keep viewers watching and making money as a program. I just don't see that happening. Maybe it's just me. But i would absolutely love to see that as well, MC!
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3288931 - 07/11/13 07:07 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Vermin93
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
I bet your real thrilled about these 2013 season dates. I too hate when muzzy opens so late.


I hate the years when MZ opens as late as it possibly can, like this upcoming year. We're going to miss the vast majority at opportunities on mature bucks.


As you know there are a number of potential solutions to this issue. All of them end in "bow", and one of them looks to be relatively easy. Why miss it when you don't have to? Why not buy a crossbow and some bolts and lock and load?


As much as I would like to make a silly comment about how much I hate archery hunting, the real reason we do not hunt with bows or crossbows is the number of chances we get at any one particular buck. Although it has happened a handful of times, the vast majority of encounters we've had with old bucks are one-time deals. We get one chance and that's it. I don't want that one chance to be when I've got a 25-yard weapon in my hands and the buck is at 40 yards. Honestly, that really is the biggest reason.


I pretty much have the same feelings on this, BSK. However, I do bow hunt and love it, but the chances of killing a 3 1/2 or older buck on our property during bow is somewhat unrealistic. Last year, we tried something different and didn't bow hunt the property until muzzy. We bow hunted elsewhere. When muzzy came, it was UNREAL the bucks we saw and deer in general! Much more than the previous 11 years! They didn't have a freakin clue \:D . We will be doing that from now on for sure. Having said that Vermin, I will probably bow hunt there towards the end of OCT - start or NOV....unless I have already killed a good buck.
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3288971 - 07/11/13 08:00 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Vermin93
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
I bet your real thrilled about these 2013 season dates. I too hate when muzzy opens so late.


I hate the years when MZ opens as late as it possibly can, like this upcoming year. We're going to miss the vast majority at opportunities on mature bucks.


As you know there are a number of potential solutions to this issue. All of them end in "bow", and one of them looks to be relatively easy. Why miss it when you don't have to? Why not buy a crossbow and some bolts and lock and load?


As much as I would like to make a silly comment about how much I hate archery hunting, the real reason we do not hunt with bows or crossbows is the number of chances we get at any one particular buck. Although it has happened a handful of times, the vast majority of encounters we've had with old bucks are one-time deals. We get one chance and that's it. I don't want that one chance to be when I've got a 25-yard weapon in my hands and the buck is at 40 yards. Honestly, that really is the biggest reason.


GREAT point BSK, And EXACTLY why I so enjoy this "supreme" challenge.

I have related that story MANY times to friends and fellow hunters. On ALL of my mature buck kills in November, EACH AND EVERY time except for one, I have had mere seconds to draw, bleat to stop the deer while adjusting for yardage, pick a spot,and release the arrow.
It has worked out well (for me, not so good for the deer) each time except once. Shoulder bone hit.

You are right though, I have seen bucks several more times when things could have turned out differently, had I been using a rifle.
And on almost EVERY occasion, it has been a ONE TIME encounter.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3288989 - 07/11/13 08:22 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
BTW, here is a link to another thread where I posted some of the "good representatives" of bucks. Also, there are a few 4.5 bruisers mixed in.
They are all Public Land kills.

http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3288760&page=1#Post3288760


Edited by 102 (07/11/13 08:22 PM)
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3288994 - 07/11/13 08:28 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
I agree with the "one chance" BSK. With that said, many of the best bucks I have ever seen have been in bow season (many from a long distance, did not have a clue I was in the world) and that was the "one chance". In my world of hunting if we see what we consider a "giant", we get one chance.

Some will argue that bowhunting spooks them but I have had places we have left alone til gun season and I cannot tell any difference in the amount of mature deer we see. Much like the farms I hunt that are archery only that are surrounded by gun hunting get covered up with deer during gun season and the guys gun hunting want to bowhunt where we hunt.

It also is very similar to killing does, the years we have whacked all the momma does we legally could from the start of archery are always better years for seeing bucks than the years we let everything walk. I would think letting all the does walk would help but we see many more bucks when we kill the does from the start. Like I said this is from over 30 years of hunting in mostly middle Tennessee.
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3289008 - 07/11/13 08:45 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 8406
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Headhunter

Some will argue that bowhunting spooks them but I have had places we have left alone til gun season and I cannot tell any difference in the amount of mature deer we see. Much like the farms I hunt that are archery only that are surrounded by gun hunting get covered up with deer during gun season and the guys gun hunting want to bowhunt where we hunt.


I believe every property is different. On our land, there is NO bow hunting anywhere around in the 3000 acre loop that our property is in, except on our land (us). The 2 years we did not hunt during bow (out of 12 years), last year included, were the best muzzy and rifle years we have had.

Think about it...in that 3000 acres, the deer were pressured hard on 500 acres. It pushed them off. No wonder we heard shots all around when the guns started going off and we rarely had a sighting of a good buck or two. These two seasons I'm referring to, WE were the ones shooting.

One of those seasons was due to a funeral of one of our hunting partners [just didn't hunt as much (couldn't get ourselves to)] and the other was by our design (our plan of experimenting). I'd love to do that every year as long as I have a place or two to bow hunt. We went out of our way to lease land for this purpose
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

Top
#3289245 - 07/12/13 07:46 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: JCDEERMAN]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
I guess it depends on how you bowhunt. We go straight to our stands, no scouting, even on public land, and walk straight out. Like I said I have been hunting for a long time and most places I hunt I know where the majority of food sources or stand areas I want to hunt are so if I scout at all, I plan it so I scout on the way in and out. If I get a new place I may walk one or 2 times looking but most of my looking is done with maps and google earth. Along that line I believe game cameras spook as many bucks if not more than bowhunters, especially mature bucks.
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3289260 - 07/12/13 08:02 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
I agree Headhunter, it is probably how and how much you bow hunt. Back when we still bow-hunted, we put in more bow-hunting hours in the stand than we did MZ and gun combined. And once we stopped that heavy bow-hunting pressure, our sightings of older bucks during MZ and gun sky-rocketed. Now if we had only lightly bow-hunted, the difference after ending bow-hunting probably wouldn't have been as dramatic.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3289340 - 07/12/13 09:26 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
MattR
8 Point


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: Nashville

Offline
I am going to try to bow hunt similar to headhunter this year. I agree with bowhunting causing more pressure. My thing is this, bow hunting requires a lot more time to get the buck you want or get a good shot at him, so that leads to more time in the woods, more up and down your stand and if you are using a climber that isn't silent then thats a lot of noise twice a day, so I get the reasons why it could lead to fewer deer sightings in muzzy and rifle season. The deer already know you and they haven't had time to forget.

But the tricky thing for me is hunting public land. Unless you are in a spot no one else goes in, then there is going to be pressure and one place I hunt, cheatham wma, there is a lot of it. So areas like these would it still be best to just stay out for bow hunting or try to keep the pressure light and hunt different spots.


I still do not have a kill with a bow, I was close last year several times but did not want to take a bad shot to get my first bow kill. I am getting a bow kill this year, it is going to be a challenge but I will get one.



Edited by MattR (07/12/13 09:28 AM)
_________________________
Corpsman Up!

Top
#3289341 - 07/12/13 09:26 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
We bowhunt hard, as I have said, I hunt some portion of every single day of every season in Tennessee unless I am in Kentucky. But I go straight to my stand and straight out. I also vary stands and hunt different areas. Like I said also, many places I hunt now, I have no control over what family members and landowners do on the private land I get to hunt. I do not desire to control that in anyway either, it is their land and I am not even going to ask them to consider our hunting or even worry about hunting when they are doing anything on their own land, I am way more than happy to just have a place to hunt. Public land I hunt, nothing you can do there either.

I know skill plays some part, but for me, the opportunity to see a buck (I want to shoot, no matter the age) is as much a thing of just being in the woods as it is skill. It is hard to replace time in the woods.
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3289361 - 07/12/13 09:41 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17811
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

Offline
I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen a good buck once (even on camera), no matter what season it may be. I love to hear the hollow thump sound of an arrow striking a deer but I honestly believe that bow hunting has saved more bucks than most care to believe. I still carry my string and sticks to the woods but I don't hunt my prime spots until pre-rut. I don't want to tip that one time buck off before I have the most adequate weapon in my hands as I can carry.

Edited by Mike Belt (07/12/13 09:44 AM)
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER

Top
#3289420 - 07/12/13 10:50 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Mike Belt]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27527
Loc: TN

Offline
Bowhunting is all in what you make of it. If you use bow season to simply romp around the woods hoping to maybe kill a doe or 2, then yes you likely are hurting yourself if you plan to hunt the exact same area during MZ and Gun.
Bow hunting can be much less intrusive than gun hunting if you take special care to make it that way. Bow season isn't just a time to walk your entire area you plan to gun hunt!
Succesful bow hunting is coming and going and watching deer that never had a clue you were ever there. I know its impossible to enter any area without alerting atleast some of the deer, but yo can really decrease the impact if you take the efforts to do so.

Top
#3289732 - 07/12/13 05:19 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Winchester]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Bowhunting is all in what you make of it. If you use bow season to simply romp around the woods hoping to maybe kill a doe or 2, then yes you likely are hurting yourself if you plan to hunt the exact same area during MZ and Gun.
Bow hunting can be much less intrusive than gun hunting if you take special care to make it that way. Bow season isn't just a time to walk your entire area you plan to gun hunt!
Succesful bow hunting is coming and going and watching deer that never had a clue you were ever there. I know its impossible to enter any area without alerting atleast some of the deer, but yo can really decrease the impact if you take the efforts to do so.


Agree 100 percent
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3289769 - 07/12/13 06:00 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Bowhunting is all in what you make of it. If you use bow season to simply romp around the woods hoping to maybe kill a doe or 2, then yes you likely are hurting yourself if you plan to hunt the exact same area during MZ and Gun.
Bow hunting can be much less intrusive than gun hunting if you take special care to make it that way. Bow season isn't just a time to walk your entire area you plan to gun hunt!
Succesful bow hunting is coming and going and watching deer that never had a clue you were ever there. I know its impossible to enter any area without alerting atleast some of the deer, but yo can really decrease the impact if you take the efforts to do so.


Agree 100 percent


We hunted (and would hunt if we went back to it) hard with a bow, just like we do with an MZ or gun. And that's a big reason not to go back. Why ruin the absolute top time of year with a long-range weapon, just to look at the one chance of a good buck as it walks by out of range?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3289823 - 07/12/13 07:26 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: 102
 Originally Posted By: Winchester
Bowhunting is all in what you make of it. If you use bow season to simply romp around the woods hoping to maybe kill a doe or 2, then yes you likely are hurting yourself if you plan to hunt the exact same area during MZ and Gun.
Bow hunting can be much less intrusive than gun hunting if you take special care to make it that way. Bow season isn't just a time to walk your entire area you plan to gun hunt!
Succesful bow hunting is coming and going and watching deer that never had a clue you were ever there. I know its impossible to enter any area without alerting atleast some of the deer, but yo can really decrease the impact if you take the efforts to do so.


Agree 100 percent


We hunted (and would hunt if we went back to it) hard with a bow, just like we do with an MZ or gun. And that's a big reason not to go back. Why ruin the absolute top time of year with a long-range weapon, just to look at the one chance of a good buck as it walks by out of range?


True Bryan (BSK),
But then, I rarely hunt in places where I see a buck that is out of range. Usually if a shot does not happen, it is because even though they are in range, it is too thick to get an arrow through. Or they do not hold still long enough, if at all.

There certainly have been times when I have seen good bucks at a distance. But those times were the exception.

But then, I have spent the vast majority of my bowhunting life with leaves on trees. I have almost always done over 75 percent of my hunting by December.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3290192 - 07/13/13 09:20 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
102, I hunt everywhere, from places that are jungle thick to as wide open as it gets. Mature bucks can and will show up anytime anywhere. My best bow opportunity (gun also) in my life was a giant 8 point, you wouldn't believe how big, easy 160 class deer, after I blew the shot he ran out and stood in the field til dark at about 100 yards (this was in the first week of December, rare occurrence for me, but it was a public land WMA) that came out in the wide open about an hour before dark. I blew it is all I can say but I had been hunting the "thickets" before and I saw more deer and more bucks hunting the wide open spot than I did in the thickets that year. This place was heavily pressured and other hunters were walking by me looking at me in the tree I am sure wondering "what idiot is hunting the freshly bush hogged wide open spot" but it was being used for sure. I hunt wherever I feel I have the best chance to get an opportunity. I love the guys who say "that is to open, you will never see a good buck there in the daylight". I have killed good bucks in the some the nastiest thick crap you can imagine but I have killed some nice bucks in the wide open, with a bow inside of 10 yards.
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3290476 - 07/13/13 05:55 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41792
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

Offline
I wonder about this bowhunting spooking deer thing? I believe it is your presence in the woods, not what you have in your hands. I think that is what causes the "pressure". If that is true, then why do any of you have cameras out that require you to check them?

I quit hunting mature or "trophy" deer some years ago. No longer travel, no longer give it a thought. I do most of my hunting during archery season and shoot whatever I feel like shooting, most often a doe. I don't hunt much public land anymore, don;t have to. Mostly I hunt two small farms on a more than regular basis. However, strangely enough, I continue to see the same deer-bucks and does-coming by the same stands all through the season.

Last year, I shot a buck I aged at 5.5 and he could easily have been older. I shot him from a stand from which I had seen him on several prior occasions and never got a shot or had the inclination to shoot.

This entire subject can be cussed and discussed ad nauseum. It is somewhat fun, somewhat educational. The end result of course, is nothing will be gained or a mind changed.

The imprtant question remains is, why does my printer-copier-scanner no longer recognize my computer, allowing me to scan?
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

Top
#3290499 - 07/13/13 06:43 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: bowriter]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2542
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
That last sentence....you read my mind. Did you change internet providers? \:\)
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3290918 - 07/14/13 09:10 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: 102]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 102
 Originally Posted By: BSK

We hunted (and would hunt if we went back to it) hard with a bow, just like we do with an MZ or gun. And that's a big reason not to go back. Why ruin the absolute top time of year with a long-range weapon, just to look at the one chance of a good buck as it walks by out of range?


True Bryan (BSK), But then, I rarely hunt in places where I see a buck that is out of range.


But you're forgetting that you're a MUCH better hunter than I am!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3292520 - 07/16/13 03:34 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
BigSatt
10 Point


Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 3787
Loc: Northern Middle Tn.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: 102
 Originally Posted By: BSK

We hunted (and would hunt if we went back to it) hard with a bow, just like we do with an MZ or gun. And that's a big reason not to go back. Why ruin the absolute top time of year with a long-range weapon, just to look at the one chance of a good buck as it walks by out of range?


True Bryan (BSK), But then, I rarely hunt in places where I see a buck that is out of range.


But you're forgetting that you're a MUCH better hunter than I am!


Me too apparently.

We don't bowhunt our relatively small farms in Illinois for that very reason. We try our best to hunt unpressured deer with our shotgun/muzzleloaders during the BEST time to hopefully afford the BEST opportunity for ALL! That doesn't mean that we have anything against bowhunting...it's just that we want to be able to utilize the most effective weapon that the law allows during the timeframe that has been PROVEN to be the best time to be in the deer woods. ANY intrusion before that time can/will tip our hat so to speak. All I know is that it surely has served us well over the last few years since we instituted this practice. Please, carry on.
_________________________
Nothing Great is ever achieved without enthusiasm.

Top
#3292617 - 07/16/13 08:04 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BigSatt]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
I think there can also be an issue as to whether one is more a hunting enthusiast or an archery enthusiast. While some of us are more into hunting (using the most effective weapon that's legal, often including archery), others are more into archery, using hunting to compliment their greater interest in archery.
Top
#3292636 - 07/16/13 08:22 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
That's a good point Wes.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3292640 - 07/16/13 08:26 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
There is also an issue where some states offer more quality hunting opportunities to exclusive archery hunters. In other words, if you choose to hunt only with archery, you get access to higher-quality hunting. Generally speaking, this is not the case in TN, although there are some exceptions.
Top
#3292652 - 07/16/13 08:35 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2542
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
There is also an issue where some states offer more quality hunting opportunities to exclusive archery hunters. In other words, if you choose to hunt only with archery, you get access to higher-quality hunting. Generally speaking, this is not the case in TN, although there are some exceptions.


Dang it, this was going so well...where's the popcorn eating hippo pic when you need it? \:\)
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3292658 - 07/16/13 08:42 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BlountArrow]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
In some states, their gun seasons do not occur until after the rut, which can mean archery hunters (during the rut) have much more opportunity. Some states will not let you hunt with a bow if you hunt any with a gun. Crazy.
Top
#3292673 - 07/16/13 08:53 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
There is also an issue where some states offer more quality hunting opportunities to exclusive archery hunters. In other words, if you choose to hunt only with archery, you get access to higher-quality hunting. Generally speaking, this is not the case in TN, although there are some exceptions.


Another excellent point. If you prefer bow-hunting, some states have regulations that favor the bow-hunter, hence bow-hunters will like those regulations.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3293081 - 07/16/13 02:39 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
I really like no gun hunting during the rut. In Tennessee that would be tough if not impossible to set the season for.
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3293388 - 07/16/13 07:31 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
Fordman
12 Point


Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 5867
Loc: Rockvale,tn

Offline
Simple solution to this debate debacle..... Get out in the woods, pay attention to everything and you will see that BSK is spot in. Over a decade ago when I first found this site I thought BSK was just a pot smoking hippie after a couple years I figured out he is possibly the best deer scientist in the southeast as well......
Top
#3293410 - 07/16/13 07:44 PM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Fordman]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 7895
Loc: Grundy county

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Fordman
Simple solution to this debate debacle..... Get out in the woods, pay attention to everything and you will see that BSK is spot in. Over a decade ago when I first found this site I thought BSK was just a pot smoking hippie after a couple years I figured out he is possibly the best deer scientist in the southeast as well......
x2 on both accounts \:D
_________________________
Team Run 'N Gunners

Top
#3293689 - 07/17/13 07:21 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: timberjack86]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
In my 30+ years of deer hunting in mostly middle Tennessee, when it comes to deer and deer hunting I completely agree with BSK on some things and (as I am sure many do about my opinions) I completely disagree on what he thinks on others.
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3293692 - 07/17/13 07:30 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Headhunter
I completely disagree on what he thinks on others.


That makes you a very smart man Headhunter!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3293741 - 07/17/13 08:22 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Wes Parrish]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 2870
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
There is also an issue where some states offer more quality hunting opportunities to exclusive archery hunters. In other words, if you choose to hunt only with archery, you get access to higher-quality hunting. Generally speaking, this is not the case in TN, although there are some exceptions.


I would contend that early season, when deer are still on their summer feeding patterns, is a very high quality hunting opportunity that gun/ml hunters do not have access to. The deer are less pressured at this time, as well, multiplying the quality of the hunt.

I used to bow hunt more, and would have considered myself an avid bowhunter, but now that I have kids and more responsibilities, I have less time in the woods and prefer the more "efficient" hunting methods. That is why I am glad that gun/ml covers the rut, even though this year the first week of Nov will be bow only, which is traditionally a very good time to hunt in my area. I would almost be willing to swap the rut for the early season, though.

Sorry, just my thoughts and no hard feelings either way...

Top
#3293775 - 07/17/13 09:20 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: EastTNHunter]
Headhunter
10 Point


Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 3963
Loc: LaVergne, TN USA

Offline
Definitely not meant in a bad way toward you BSK. I approach many things in hunting and fishing differently than most. I would be a rich man if I just had a dollar for every time I have been told, or something to the effect of, "you won't kill a buck or a deer or catch a fish or a certain day will be a waste of time to hunt or fish" only to have one of the best days hunting or fishing I have ever had. What cracks me up the most (I work with one) are the guys who have never killed a deer but they tell me the way I hunt is wrong because they read it in a book or saw in a show that what I am doing is wrong.

My personal favorite is a friend of the family who told me (while we were on public land hunt) that if he could hunt "pet" deer like I do then he could kill them like me. He told me how smart you had to be to kill public land deer, and that afternoon I killed a great 3.5 year old 10 pointer and have killed a deer on the majority of our public land hunts together ever since. He watches "all" the hunting shows and claims to know more than anyone else, he has not even hardly seen a deer since the "pet" deer comment. Karma I guess.
_________________________
Patron Lifetime NRA member

Top
#3293788 - 07/17/13 09:48 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Headhunter
102, I hunt everywhere, from places that are jungle thick to as wide open as it gets. Mature bucks can and will show up anytime anywhere. My best bow opportunity (gun also) in my life was a giant 8 point, you wouldn't believe how big, easy 160 class deer, after I blew the shot he ran out and stood in the field til dark at about 100 yards (this was in the first week of December, rare occurrence for me, but it was a public land WMA) that came out in thue wide open about an hour before dark. I blew it is all I can say but I had been hunting the "thickets" before and I saw more deer and more bucks hunting the wide open spot than I did in the thickets that year. This place was heavily pressured and other hunters were walking by me looking at me in the tree I am sure wondering "what idiot is hunting the freshly bush hogged wide open spot" but it was being used for sure. I hunt wherever I feel I have the best chance to get an opportunity. I love the guys who say "that is to open, you will never see a good buck there in the daylight". I have killed good bucks in the some the nastiest thick crap you can imagine but I have killed some nice bucks in the wide open, with a bow inside of 10 yards.


I agree HH. And in early season, or rut, I often hunt open areas. But I still like to concentrate on pinch points. Sometimes this may mean a low point in the fence, or a blow down, or even a small terrain variation.

But without rut, and in high pressured areas, I have enjoyed my best success in thick areas with openings.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3293809 - 07/17/13 09:56 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BSK]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: 102
 Originally Posted By: BSK

We hunted (and would hunt if we went back to it) hard with a bow, just like we do with an MZ or gun. And that's a big reason not to go back. Why ruin the absolute top time of year with a long-range weapon, just to look at the one chance of a good buck as it walks by out of range?


True Bryan (BSK), But then, I rarely hunt in places where I see a buck that is out of range.


But you're forgetting that you're a MUCH better hunter than I am!



Lol Bryan.

Bow hunter maybe!
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3293812 - 07/17/13 09:59 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: BigSatt]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BigSatt
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: 102
 Originally Posted By: BSK

We hunted (and would hunt if we went back to it) hard with a bow, just like we do with an MZ or gun. And that's a big reason not to go back. Why ruin the absolute top time of year with a long-range weapon, just to look at the one chance of a good buck as it walks by out of range?


True Bryan (BSK), But then, I rarely hunt in places where I see a buck that is out of range.


But you're forgetting that you're a MUCH better hunter than I am!


Me too apparently.



We don't bowhunt our relatively small farms in Illinois for that very reason. We try our best to hunt unpressured deer with our shotgun/muzzleloaders during the BEST time to hopefully afford the BEST opportunity for ALL! That doesn't mean that we have anything against bowhunting...it's just that we want to be able to utilize the most effective weapon that the law allows during the timeframe that has been PROVEN to be the best time to be in the deer woods. ANY intrusion before that time can/will tip our hat so to speak. All I know is that it surely has served us well over the last few years since we instituted this practice. Please, carry on.


Maybe...I know that pressure is king when it comes to hunting and finding deer.

But rut trumps all!!!
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

Top
#3293872 - 07/17/13 10:58 AM Re: BSK, gonna love this one [Re: Headhunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65056
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Headhunter
Definitely not meant in a bad way toward you BSK.


And I didn't take it that way. I don't think anyone agrees COMPLETELY with anyone else (at least I hope not). Dr. Grant Woods was my mentor for a decade. I think he's a brilliant deer biologist and manager. But that doesn't mean I agree with him on everything. We have major differences in beliefs about biology, management, hunting, and life in general. But I still think the world of him and truly respect him.


 Quote:
I would be a rich man if I just had a dollar for every time I have been told, or something to the effect of, "you won't kill a buck or a deer or catch a fish or a certain day will be a waste of time to hunt or fish" only to have one of the best days hunting or fishing I have ever had.


"Never" and "always" are two very dangerous words when it comes to hunting and fishing! That's why I always try to point out that even my highly data-driven opinions are only about "trends;" i.e. less like, more likely, highly unlikely, vast majority, etc.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
Page all of 14 12345>Last »


Moderator:  RUGER, Tennessee Todd, Unicam, Cuttin Caller, CBU93, stretch, Bobby G, TurkeyBurd, Kimber45, Mrs.Unicam, Crappie Luck 
Hop to:
Top Posters
4105266
RUGER
86723
Deer Assassin
65056
BSK
60881
Crappie Luck
51376
spitndrum
Newest Members
JPG3, red arrow, ICUFLY, east_tn_gk, cruiser sailor
13210 Registered Users
Who's Online
55 registered (downthebrown, dogmatik, biglefty20, UTGrad, redblood, BluegrassDan, 3 invisible) and 87 anonymous users online.
Forum Stats
13210 Members
42 Forums
91625 Topics
1070927 Posts

Max Online: 788 @ 11/11/13 08:06 PM
Moon Phase
CURRENT MOON
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Forum Donations
The TnDeer.Com Deer Talk Forum is for Tennessee Deer Hunters by Tennessee Deer Hunters. If you enjoy using our Talk Forum and would like to contribute to help in it's up-keep. Just submit your contribution by clicking on the DONATE button below and paying with PayPal or a major credit card. Any amount is much appreciated. Thanks for your support!

TN Burn Safe

Generated in 0.103 seconds in which 0.002 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.