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#327506 - 08/05/07 02:31 AM how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle
mr.big
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do you build it around a bullet that you want to use,or build the rifle and use what it likes,
I have a Rem 700 LA standard,700 LA Magnum,700LA Ultra Magnum,and a Model 7 Magnum action and a Model 7 standard action.and A 700 SA with standard bolt.

I like the Classic Wood stock or a BDL with a satin finish,I would like balistics of the 300RUM but can get by with a lot less ft lbs energy,,

any AB at .588 BC and 3200 fps or other combinations that achieve the same balistics without the recoil and 60 rounds a pound is what I want.

25-300 Win Mag with the 110 AB looks tempting.
270 Dakota with 140 AB doesnt look shabby
6mm-06 or 6-284 with the 117 Tubb Bullet may be how it goes

but I hear Nosler is working on a 175-180 7mm AB and the 7mm Claunch could get the nod then.

a 130 25 cal AB would make it a no brainer,,the 300 Win Mag necked to 25 firing 130 AB with BC`s in the high 5`s at 33-3400 would be the real deal.

it looks like Nicole is getting a full ride at UT Martin next year and if that happens I am doing something with that RUM,its just about too much to handle.

it will be a light varmint type gun made to be hunted from blinds with rests and have a 28-30 inch bbl and more than likely a 4.5-14 Ziess or a 5.5-16 Nikon.
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#327538 - 08/05/07 06:07 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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The BC requirements, with currently made Accubonds only offers the 200 grain 30 caliber.

I`d look to where I am looking and check out the Hornady A-Max line. The 7mm 162 has .625 BC.

Outside them Berger offers their VLD line as a hunting bullet now, and the 6.5 130 grain with .595 BC is in the requirement bracket.

That one would be the most pleasant to shoot, and easily driven to the 3200 fps requirement out of the 264 Win Mag.

Keeping in mind how much you shoot, I`d opt for the mildest round that meet the criteria, and a cut rifled barrel, to insure the longest possible barrel life.

I`d personally opt for the 162 A Max. The Claunch (as you said) will also do 3200+ nicely, as would a couple other 7mm cats in the safe.

A custom 7mm STW set up for 162 A Max bullets would be hard not to go with.

7mm 162 A-Max, 168, 180 Berger
6.5 140 A Max. 130, 140 Berger
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#327706 - 08/05/07 10:40 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
megalomaniac
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Mr Big,

It all depends on your definition of 'long range hunting' on how to build your gun.

First you need to decide on what animals you want to hunt (so you'll know the minimum ft-lbs of energy needed at the distance you'll be hunting). No brainer you'll need to go with the bigger calibers for elk, and can get by with smaller stuff for varmits.

Next you need to set realistic expectations of just how far you actually plan on hunting/shooting. Is 'long range' 300-500 yards? If so, BC is fairly irrelevant. Is it 500-700? Pretty much anything around .5-.6 would be just fine. 1000 yards? Need to think really hard about the extremely heavy for caliber bullets by custom manufacturers (wildcat bullets, etc).

Once you know your realistic range expectations, you can then build the rifle. Just pick anything you want in any configuration for 500 and in, but obviously you'll actually need to pick a bullet and build the rifle around it if you're wanting the most extreme efficiency (ie, long throating the rifle to increase capacity, building a short mag or a .284 win case on a long action to improve capacity).

I'm probably planning something similar to you for my next build. Something up to deer sized game in an 8-9lb rig good to 500-600 yards with little recoil. In my mind, I'm leaning towards the 257 WSM or 6.5 WSM as I've got an extra s/s 700 action laying around with the WSM bolt face. Probably a #3 or #4(fluted) barrel. I've got to figure out how much case capacity the 140 6.5 bullets will take up, but I think they'll be fine.

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#327851 - 08/05/07 01:40 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
mr.big
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I could probably get by with .5 BC if I could get it on up to 3400,around 750 is as far as I can practice reasonably so that will be my limit,I got a 500 yard rang here and Ronnie has a pretty flat 800 at his house.

I would rather stay away from the match bullets and stick with the Sierra SBTGK or the AB bullet,,I doubt ever being able to hunt anything bigger than mulies,so a 6.5 140 should work,,I was lookin at stuff last night and the 6.5-06AI looks interseting from a 28 inch bbl.
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#327854 - 08/05/07 01:45 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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I`d use the 130 AB and never look back.
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#327855 - 08/05/07 01:48 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
mr.big
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the 6.5 bullet shouldn`t take up any space in a long action WSM if made right should it,that is one of my options also the 6.5 WSM in a long action.
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#327856 - 08/05/07 01:49 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
mr.big
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you think there would be a BIG improvement going WSM over the 06AI case in the field using 130 gr bullets??
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#327957 - 08/05/07 03:35 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
megalomaniac
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The 6.5 WSM built in a long action would not lose any case capacity due to magazine length, but you would lose 2 or 3 rounds in the mag well versus the 6.5-06, and that is something to consider!

Now, if you can build the 6.5 WSM on a short action, still seat the big bullets out far enough to preserve case capacity, but fit in the mag box, well, heck, to me seems hard to beat

A reasonable expectation would be around 3250 fps for the 140's and prolly 3350 for the 130's out of the WSM parent case on a 24 inch tube... you may very well be able to get 3500 fps on a 28" tube with the 130's.

Of course, you always have to take into consideration all the 1000 yard BR guys who have gone with the 6.5-284... There's gotta be something special about the 6.5 bullet!

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#327979 - 08/05/07 03:58 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
TiminTN
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Hate to muddy the waters any more, but a short mag and a 6.5 bore tells me to tell you to neck down the 300 Saum.

It would fit much better in a S/A and the case size would be spiffy to boot. Nosler brass available.

The 30 vs 35 degree shoulder would feed better too. Heck I might have to do that one.

My shooting buddy and me were discussing this very possibility today at the range.

Something else to ponder.
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#328028 - 08/05/07 05:04 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
mr.big
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I would rather use the long action,it is what I was raised on and it just feels better to me and it will be easier to get everything to work in.

the 280AI case necked to 6.5 should scare 3200 with 130-40 gr bullets from a 28 inch bbl.

a 270 Win will get over 3100 with 130`s.
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#328120 - 08/05/07 07:21 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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I agree your velocity requirements are met with that case.
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#328129 - 08/05/07 07:26 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
megalomaniac
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No brainer then,

You just need a 264 win mag.

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#328305 - 08/05/07 09:23 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
.444 Marlin
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If I am planning a long range rig for the up coming season I'll look for a gun with a heavy 24-26" barrel in .308 or any similar 7mm or .30 magnum then find a load it likes and ofcourse top it with a big target scope
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#328359 - 08/05/07 09:44 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: ]
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 Originally Posted By: DEER ASSASSIN
i plan on using evey one knowledge i can



and just for pmc

the smk kill deer just fine all day long \:D


Your dang skippy they will. \:D

Pmc
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#328521 - 08/06/07 02:51 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: PMC, certified]
mr.big
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if I can get 3200 with the 06AI case with 62+/- grs of powder why would I want a 264 and burn 72 grs??
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#328537 - 08/06/07 06:00 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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Definately go the efficient (sp) route.

Excuse my spelling.

I wonder if a bushing swap in an FL, S-Type Redding die would get a guy a 6.5 Shamu going?
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#328556 - 08/06/07 06:27 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: PMC, certified]
mr.big
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sooo many options,,I am looking to get the highest Bc in the smallest bore that will go fast enough for 700 yard shots without it being so overbore it wont last 500 rounds,,I am convinced it will be some case with about 65 or so grs case capacity in 6.5 or 75 grs in 7mm.with the early edge going to the 6.5,,the 6mm-06 with the 117 Tubb bullet is not out either.kinda worried about bbl life on that one though.

if I was Building it today ,I would start with my Blue Steel 700 standard long action,with the Jewel trigger,send it to whoever does Tims Bench Guns and tell them I want whatever bbl they recomend as BEST,to be finished at 28 inches,and chambered for the 280 AI case necked to 6.5 throated so the 130 AB would stop just out front of the donut and be .005 short of the rifilings,the bbl would be a tad lighter than the Rem varmint probably .700 at the muzzle,the stock I would love to be wood but will go with a McMillian more than likely,the mounts would be Leupold MK4,and the scope a 5.5-16 Nightforce,then send the whole thing off and have it finished like PMC`s Whisper.

that should shoot a heavy enough bullet with a high enough SD to kill at range and a high enough BC fast enough to hit at range and the rig should be accurate enough to leave the blame to the nut behind the trigger.
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#328558 - 08/06/07 06:30 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
mr.big
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 Originally Posted By: TiminTN
Definately go the efficient (sp) route.

Excuse my spelling.

I wonder if a bushing swap in an FL, S-Type Redding die would get a guy a 6.5 Shamu going?


if you started with the 7mm case it should,,the 6.5 RSAUM and the 280AI case would be near the same capacity wouldnt they??

I have a M7 300RSAUM I got in a trade I havent shot but the other one I had didn`t feed and only held 2+1 while the 700 SA may handle it better.
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#328568 - 08/06/07 06:42 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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That would get it done nicely.

My smith builds all my stuff, not just the bench guns, and is a super guy. I can tell you he will recommend Krieger or Bartlein.

I have had such great luck with Krieger, I see no need to change. I ordered 2 more a month or so ago, for the bench guns.

I have a 6 Dasher reamer needs using.

The fun is the planning and it will drive you crazy waiting.
If/when you decide something definate, a reamer order will be necessary.

I can assist you with that, and I use a guy he recommended for that. It is a lengthy process so I`d get things going asap.

Reamer prices will run around the $200.00 mark, and take a few months.

No money down, as this is a prince of a guy as well.
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#328572 - 08/06/07 06:51 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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You added another post I missed, the Saum and the 280AI cases seem to be very similar.
I`d use a 700 S/A and do a Wyatts modification. I have extra followers made special for the Wyatts box, I`d let you have 1.

The Wyatts box is a deal maker. You ought to see how this looks.
I am not saying it is better than your idea at all, just another option.
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#328722 - 08/06/07 08:59 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
vonb
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Tim,
Couple questions about your 'smith:

1) Is he in TN?
2) What the average wait time with your 'smith?
3) Do he check custom action for squareness before using it in your build? The whole ordeal on 24hour with the Stiller action has me concerned.

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#328746 - 08/06/07 09:31 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: vonb]
TiminTN
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Not in TN

No matter when you send it ain`t gonna be ready till the benchrest season is over, usually December when I get my stuff.

I owned a Stiller Predator for about a month one time and sold it.

He uses mainly BAT actions and is very sucessful in the point blank benchrest game.

He and the shooters that he smiths for really pissed off the Kelblys this year at the Super Shoot.

I have a good idea he does check actions. I have a custom action he has not had in hand and wants to give it a real going over.
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#328750 - 08/06/07 09:36 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: vonb]
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I am not much of a "Long Ranger" but my .02

I'd sell of the Model 7 300 Shamu and order a Stiller from the snipershide group buy ($600) to start from.

The rest of the recipe sounds great (McMillan, Nightforce, etc..)

For a long range rig I don't think I would spend the money to get it dipped. The game sure aint gonna see it \:D

Either way I look forward to pics when you do it.

Pmc
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#328786 - 08/06/07 10:14 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: PMC, certified]
megalomaniac
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mr. big....

Do want an efficient case or an ultra velocity case? Unfortunately the two are mutually exclusive- you simply can't have both.

Kinda like driving your car and gas mileage. The increase from 60 to 80 mph uses a disproportionately larger amount of fuel reducing MPG efficiency substantially.

From what I've seen, once you get past 3100-3200 fps, it takes a significantly higher powder charge to increase velocity only a little.

If you want efficiency only, the 6.5x284 will be the go-to round. From what I've heard, you can expect a barrel to last around 1500 rounds depending on how hard you push them.

What's the problem mentioned about stiller actions? I thought they were supposed to be top notch, no need to square or true... just screw on a tube and you're ready to go.

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#328824 - 08/06/07 10:31 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
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Check this thread.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1574598/page/0/fpart/1
Kampfeld has a Predator in his shop that isn't ithin tolerance.

Pmc
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#329311 - 08/06/07 04:32 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
mr.big
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you can use a good enough bullet you dont have to use as much gas to get the same results,,like racing and LS6 Chevelle and a ZO6 Corvette,,the 454 makes more power but the Vette will leave it standing.
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#329471 - 08/06/07 06:33 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
megalomaniac
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read the thread on the stiller, sounds like just a fluke on a single action. Hopefully won't be a recurrent problem for them.

Mr big, I don't follow the above statement. Do you mean 'cartridge' rather than 'bullet'?

In any case, just pull out your reloading manual, divide velocity by grains of powder for a bunch of cartridges and you'll see what I'm talking about. While there are certainly cartridges which can produce higher velocities with the same bullet with less powder, once you go beyond 3200 fps (for the bullet weights we've been talking about), all that I know of become less efficient. Go past 3500 fps, and the cartridges are powder guzzlers (like our 300 RUM's... not an efficient cartridge!)

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#329929 - 08/07/07 02:41 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
mr.big
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what I meant is it takes 100 grs of powder in the RUM to push a bullet witha .580 BC at 3200 fps,in the 6.5 you can do that with about 64 grs in the 6.5 Gibbs,6.5-06AI,,I just mean to get the ballistics I want without the horsepower I dont need I can get by with the new slick lighter bullets with just as good BC that takes alot less gas to get the same trajectory as the 200AB in the RUM.

I dont need 5K pounds of energy to kill what I`m after but i do need .550 BC or better at 3200 minumum to get the balistics I want with bench type accuracy and I would like to get it done with less than 70 grs of powder.
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#330084 - 08/07/07 07:52 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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To me, the BC numbers keep pointing to 7mm.

Unless you want to hunt with a 6.5 130 grain Berger VLD.

What bullets do you have in mind to use in the field hunting?

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#330949 - 08/07/07 05:06 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
megalomaniac
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 Originally Posted By: mr.big

I dont need 5K pounds of energy to kill what I`m after but i do need .550 BC or better at 3200 minumum to get the balistics I want with bench type accuracy and I would like to get it done with less than 70 grs of powder.



That IS a tall order... you will definetly have to build the rifle around the bullet for sure.

To get BC's above .550, you need 2 things... and extremely low drag bullet AND a heavy for caliber bullet. The problem with the heavy for caliber bullets, though, is that you'll need more powder to drive them up towards 3200 fps. There just aren't many choices out there, especially if you go with the standard bullet manufacturers.

A 7 STW, 7 Dakota will make it with the 160 AB's (but then you're under the .550 BC and over the 70 grains of powder). My 7 WSM will make just under 3100 with the 160's, but well under 70 grains powder

I wonder about the 160 gr 6.5mm Wildcat bullets. I haven't found any actual calculated BC's for them, but I bet the owner has them... I'd suspect they'd be well into the .6-.7's. If you could push them around 3000 fps, you might be able to make up for the lost velocity with the increase in BC, and be way under 70 grains...

I may just give Richard a call to get his BC's for the wildcats.

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#331022 - 08/07/07 05:50 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
TiminTN
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How would a 7 WSM perform with 162 A-Max`s in a 28" barrel?
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#331282 - 08/07/07 08:03 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
ewc
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Tim-

I like the way you think. This is a measly little 24" barrel-

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek064.html

I'm sure you've seen this. It's a good reason why I picked up my 7wsm.

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#331483 - 08/07/07 09:18 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
megalomaniac
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 Originally Posted By: TiminTN
How would a 7 WSM perform with 162 A-Max`s in a 28" barrel?


If you could seat them far enough out, you could probably use Re25 instead of 22 in a 28" barrel, stuff the case completely (right at 70 grains) and hit 3200 reasonably with a normal barrel.

I have no idea why some barrels are so much 'faster' or 'slower' than others, though.

My partner and I bought 300 SAUMs in 700 BDL s/s last year and I reloaded for both. Identical bullets, powder charges, primers, heck even I reloaded both cases myself, yet his was consistently 75 to 100 fps faster than mine with the same rounds (oh, also broken in identically, and similar round counts). Mine was just a little better than a 30-06, while his was at 300 win mag levels with the 168's... so I ended up getting rid of mine.

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#331764 - 08/08/07 03:23 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
mr.big
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the 7WSM in a long action would probably do what I want,if I go 7 I will more than likely build around the new 175 MK so I could be able to have more choices if it didnt like one certian bullet,I should be able to use the 160AB,162 AMax,168 Berger,Sierra,175 Sierra or the 180 Berger,

but I am still leaning towards the 6,5 bore,,either the 280AI case or either of the short mags,,we would have to decide on best brass available between the WSM and RSAUM,,the 130 Berger,142 Sierra or the Laupa 142 Scenar bullet.

the 6mm Berger 115 bullet has the .595 BC and should make 3200 with 55 grs of powder so I aint ruling it out at all.
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#331765 - 08/08/07 03:42 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: megalomaniac]
mr.big
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that 90 gr 22 cal at .517 is an interesting lookin bullet
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#331834 - 08/08/07 06:48 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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My shooting buddy is dealing with the same issues kind of right now.
Many of the match bullets, the VLD type, are made and tested to shoot in a certain velocity window.
You start cranking them up and a core shift can take place.
When I shot in Missouri I took 2 rifles, and the 6-47 Lapua I had loaded 100 grain CR bullets running 3400 fps. Many of them never made it to the gong.
The 90 grain 22`s are mosly made and tested for the Hi-Power shooters running them single shot out of a 223.
The big boomers at the 1000 yd range, the large 30`s shoot heavy bullets and reasonable velocitys.
This is why the 6BR is such a deadly round, the 6Dasher, these cases run at efficient, high pressures, but the bullets are running right where they want to be velocity wise.
The 6.5/284 is the same, you work a 142 Sierra to 2950/2990/3020, and you are good all day long.
Shoot them at 3200 and who knows.
The water can get deep, fast.
I know twist rates should be slowed down according to case picked and this may help, and using moly coated bullet will help as well, to try and push the envelope.
I think a call to Sierra tech, Berger, and Hornady will be a good recommendation and see what velocity levels should be considered.
There are a few who campain the 6/284 and shoot the 107 Sierra, so there must be a few exceptions.
I am going to shoot A-Max`s for a while in 6mm and 6.5, and see if my initial good luck holds.
I also bought heavily into the new Berger 108 6mm`s when the first good reviews came around. These will be tested in the 6BR and the 6-47.
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#331940 - 08/08/07 08:31 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
TiminTN
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I know this is about a HUNTING rifle, I got off topic a bit, but wanted you to realize a few lessons I have learned.


I had a reamers made for the 7Saum and 7WSM, but not built either yet. The 7WSM has a highest capacity of all the short mags, and the shortest neck.

A throating or bullet to shoot in it is almost mandatory before chambering.

My 7WSM reamer was made to seat a 140 Accubond with the tip measuring 2.950" OAL to be used in a Wyatts modified box or the Borden Rimrock with Wyatts option.

This still has bullet shank in the powder compartment. The Saum is a better fit in a short action, to me.

Using this in a long action/single shot seated out further should be an amazing cartridge.
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#332348 - 08/08/07 01:42 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: TiminTN]
mr.big
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Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 28780
Loc: Copper Head Road

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I really want to go as easy on the bbl as possible,,but it looks like the 7 WSM in a long action is the wimpiest round I will be able to get by with.

and Tim I have read where the 105 6mm A-Max comes apart in flight at about 3300,that would be sad to build the thing and have shotgun looking patterns.

anyway just thinking as it will be a while before I get this going.
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#332453 - 08/08/07 02:57 PM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
TiminTN
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Registered: 06/18/00
Posts: 6332
Loc: Memphis,Tennessee U.S.A.

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The planning is so much of the fun part, and its free.......

I know you will do well with it.
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#333153 - 08/09/07 01:17 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: mr.big]
Greentimber
Spike


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Jackson

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.280 Remington with a 162 A-Max (.625 BC) pushed to around 2950fps will get you as far out as you want to go.
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#333200 - 08/09/07 06:56 AM Re: how do you plan a long range HUNTING rifle [Re: Greentimber]
TiminTN
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Registered: 06/18/00
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Loc: Memphis,Tennessee U.S.A.

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I`ll add the 280 AI. Now I know how well those shoot. big, new wimpiest case, and my smith and I both have a reamer. MIne is set up for the Nosler brass.

This is the one.......
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