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#3255575 - 05/27/13 08:59 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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timberjack86,

I agree with you about what makes a valuable tree, and what will turn the best profit in the short term. But when it comes to tall, straight, limbless trunks (high-value mature trees), the best mature timber, especially veneer-quality trees, come from areas that were clear-cut many years previous. Like you mentioned, trees that must grow vertically as quickly as possible make the highest value timber. When all trees from seedling through sapling through maturity are having to reach upwards as quickly as possible (the situation where all saplings are reaching and competing for canopy space in a clear-cut from their first year of growth), the genetics for tall, straight, limbless growth is naturally selected for and the best timber value trees flourish while lesser-quality trees are shaded out by their tall-growing neighbors. Nearly every time I've seen a complete grove of veneer-quality oaks harvested, their rings show all the trees in the area are the same age, indicating that all trees in the area began growth the same year (the result of a clear-cut or at least a very heavy timber harvest).

The downside to clear-cutting is that most land-owners will never see the 2nd return on their profit. A clear-cut area in most parts of TN will require 60-75 years of growth before the trees are mature enough to be of veneer quality. Profits are maximized by thinnings that allow repeated harvests of the same area (every 15-30 years, depending on the intensity/size-limit of each harvest). However, the quality of the trees are not as good from repeat thinnings, as peak growing conditions for high-quality timber are not produced through thinnings.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3257481 - 05/29/13 08:02 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: BSK]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 8123
Loc: Grundy county

happy Online
 Originally Posted By: BSK
timberjack86,

I agree with you about what makes a valuable tree, and what will turn the best profit in the short term. But when it comes to tall, straight, limbless trunks (high-value mature trees), the best mature timber, especially veneer-quality trees, come from areas that were clear-cut many years previous. Like you mentioned, trees that must grow vertically as quickly as possible make the highest value timber. When all trees from seedling through sapling through maturity are having to reach upwards as quickly as possible (the situation where all saplings are reaching and competing for canopy space in a clear-cut from their first year of growth), the genetics for tall, straight, limbless growth is naturally selected for and the best timber value trees flourish while lesser-quality trees are shaded out by their tall-growing neighbors. Nearly every time I've seen a complete grove of veneer-quality oaks harvested, their rings show all the trees in the area are the same age, indicating that all trees in the area began growth the same year (the result of a clear-cut or at least a very heavy timber harvest).

The downside to clear-cutting is that most land-owners will never see the 2nd return on their profit. A clear-cut area in most parts of TN will require 60-75 years of growth before the trees are mature enough to be of veneer quality. Profits are maximized by thinnings that allow repeated harvests of the same area (every 15-30 years, depending on the intensity/size-limit of each harvest). However, the quality of the trees are not as good from repeat thinnings, as peak growing conditions for high-quality timber are not produced through thinnings.
I agree completely and I think It might take even longer for a clearcut to produce valuable timber Like 100 years mabey more. My dad is 71 and can show me timber lands that were cleared when he was a child and they still have yet to produce a valuable tree. and therefore I never ever recommend a clearcut for any client interested in future profits for himself.
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#3257759 - 05/30/13 07:37 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Each location will have a "site index"--a measure of how tall trees will grow in 25 or 50 years. Some locations, such as steep south-facing slopes, will have low site indexes, while wetter north-facing slopes can have much higher site indexes.

When I'm part of a timber harvest project, I try to ring-age the timber that is cut, to get an idea of the local site index. I've seen 24" DBH veneer-quality white and red oaks in a good site index area that are only 65 years old. However, they may require 80+ years to achieve the same growth in a poorer site index area (and won't exist at all in very poor site index areas--those sites will be dominated by other species of tree).

When cutting timber specifically for wildlife management purposes, I tend to recommend much heavier cuts than would be recommended for long-term monetary gain.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3258545 - 05/31/13 09:28 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: BSK]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16926
Loc: Allardt, TN

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I walked one of my timber cuts from 2 winters ago yesterday in the middle of the day. Browse and cover everywhere. Ended up jumping 4 deer out of a 5 acre cut. A deer wouldnt have been in there before, it was just wide open hardwoods. Browsing was evident in that cut. It's worth it, IMO.
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#3258580 - 05/31/13 10:28 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: smstone22]
treefarmer
4 Point


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 364
Loc: Humphreys County, TN

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Several years ago my Area Forester visited my forest, took core samples and he told me it is time to cut my quality oak forest because the trees are mature and have almost quit growing. He then looked at the understory to see what the next forest would be after I cut. We only saw the shade loving trees such as elm, hickory, hornbeam etc. so he told me I need to get rid of the junk understory to allow oaks to come in. That way the next forest will be the oaks we all love. I spent several winters with a chain saw and herbicide getting rid of the junk trees. This fall I'm going to walk my woods with a forester and if there is advance regeneration of oaks I will plan some clearcutting. Timberjack, perhaps the land that was clear-cut years ago and still doesn't have a quality tree didn't have any oaks in the understory when it was cut.
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#3258832 - 05/31/13 05:36 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: treefarmer]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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treefarmer,

You're doing it right.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3258923 - 05/31/13 08:18 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: treefarmer]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 8123
Loc: Grundy county

happy Online
 Originally Posted By: treefarmer
Several years ago my Area Forester visited my forest, took core samples and he told me it is time to cut my quality oak forest because the trees are mature and have almost quit growing. He then looked at the understory to see what the next forest would be after I cut. We only saw the shade loving trees such as elm, hickory, hornbeam etc. so he told me I need to get rid of the junk understory to allow oaks to come in. That way the next forest will be the oaks we all love. I spent several winters with a chain saw and herbicide getting rid of the junk trees. This fall I'm going to walk my woods with a forester and if there is advance regeneration of oaks I will plan some clearcutting. Timberjack, perhaps the land that was clear-cut years ago and still doesn't have a quality tree didn't have any oaks in the understory when it was cut.
I am sure there was some. Its hard to walk in a mature forest without some oaks in the understory. There are lots of oaks in the clearcuts. Problem is they are 30 feet high with limbs from the bottom all the way to the top. Not quality timber imo.
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#3259133 - 06/01/13 08:34 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Exactly what treefarmer described can be a real problem for oak forest regeneration. Often, very mature oak forests have a mid-story of shade-tolerant trees such as beech, hickory, and maple. Cut out all the oaks and the mid-story will dominate the stand, rapidly creating a low but complete canopy and preventing the growth of oak saplings. In fact, the sudden removal of all the oaks prevents oak sapling growth because of a lack of acorns once sunlight can hit the ground.

The very BEST method is to first cut any non-oaks from the mature timber as well as removing the shade-tolerant mid-story. Holes in the canopy produced by non-oak removal allows some sunlight on the ground which in turn allows some acorn sprouting. After a year or two of acorn sprouting, THEN remove the mature oaks. This greatly increases oak regeneration, as a large supply of oak seedlings are present at the time of complete canopy removal.

The downside to this better form of timber harvest is that you will not be able to find a logger willing to conduct the first cut. The non-oaks and shade-tolerant mid-story have no monetary value.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3260763 - 06/03/13 06:22 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: BSK]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 8123
Loc: Grundy county

happy Online
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Exactly what treefarmer described can be a real problem for oak forest regeneration. Often, very mature oak forests have a mid-story of shade-tolerant trees such as beech, hickory, and maple. Cut out all the oaks and the mid-story will dominate the stand, rapidly creating a low but complete canopy and preventing the growth of oak saplings. In fact, the sudden removal of all the oaks prevents oak sapling growth because of a lack of acorns once sunlight can hit the ground.

The very BEST method is to first cut any non-oaks from the mature timber as well as removing the shade-tolerant mid-story. Holes in the canopy produced by non-oak removal allows some sunlight on the ground which in turn allows some acorn sprouting. After a year or two of acorn sprouting, THEN remove the mature oaks. This greatly increases oak regeneration, as a large supply of oak seedlings are present at the time of complete canopy removal.

The downside to this better form of timber harvest is that you will not be able to find a logger willing to conduct the first cut. The non-oaks and shade-tolerant mid-story have no monetary value.
Great info guys! Thanks!
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