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#3259162 - 06/01/13 09:22 AM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: Football Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
Also,to continue with Devils Advocate thing,since you say we kill more "mature" bucks than Ky,because of Tn's much longer "gun" season,wouldnt a shorter gun season here produce a better oppurtunity for an older agr class buck,or even one with bigger antlers in the years to come?

Asuming that was a hunters or TWRAs goal?


If I may, let me answer your second question first.

Although it sounds logical (killing fewer mature bucks means having more mature bucks in the future), deer population dynamics don't work that way. Bucks do not have the lifespan hunters think they do. In fact, in the toughest habitat/terrain conditions (hilly or mountainous hardwoods), few bucks live beyond 6 1/2 years of age, regardless of hunter harvest. In addition, in a given year, the MAJORITY of mature bucks present (and I'm using the biological definition of "mature"--4 1/2 or older) were not mature bucks the previous year. They are 4 1/2 year-olds that were "middle-aged" (3 1/2) the previous year. This is true every year. The majority of mature bucks present in a given year were not mature the previous year (4 1/2 year-olds always make up the majority of all bucks 4 1/2 and older, due to rapid natural mortality of bucks older than 4 1/2). Therefore, the number of mature bucks killed the previous year is almost irrelevant. In essence, "protecting" mature bucks from harvest will not "stockpile" more mature bucks in the future. They will simply die of natural causes.

In addition, you have to look at how harvestable bucks are. Shorter firearms seasons reduce the harvestability of bucks. Even if an area has more mature bucks (which I strongly suspect most of KY does over most of TN); more mature bucks may not increase harvest opportunities due to the area's shorter period of firearms hunting.

I realize this seems counterintuitive, but that appears to exactly what is happening. Although KY most likely has more mature bucks, hunters are not able to take advantage of that higher number. If hunters cannot take advantage, then opportunity is lower. Although it may be true that bow hunting opportunities for mature bucks is increased (I would need to see mature buck harvest data broken out by weapon to know for sure, but that scenario makes logical sense).
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#3259170 - 06/01/13 09:37 AM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19450
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
. . . . . . bucks will not leave an area because there is a lot of competition between bucks. Deer have no imagination (no animal but humans do), therefore they cannot imagine a better situation somewhere else and go looking for it. Bucks will simply deal with whatever situation they find themselves in, whether that's lots of does or few does. Now bucks have some desire to "wander" built into them genetically, yet just as many bucks will wander into an area of low doe numbers as wander out of the area.

Totally correct.

But I've found getting hunters to "believe" this can be quite a challenge. Many hunters believe that more does attract more bucks, when the truth is it's more an issue of bucks simply naturally roaming within their rut range. If there were no does whatsoever, imo, these same bucks would actually roam more and become more visible to those hunting within their rut range.

This is not to say a buck doesn't stay with a hot doe for a day or two when he stumbles across her. But I believe we (as hunters) typically have more opportunity to cross paths with a buck when he's daytime roaming, "looking" for a doe, i.e. the more he's up on his feet "looking", the more we're likely to get a shot at him. By contrast, staying bedded most of the day with an estrous doe can provide less chance of seeing him.

Anything can be taken to an unhealthy extreme, and there are usually some exceptions to most generalities, but there is much truth in the statement, "One of the best ways to see more bucks can be to shoot more does." A good "rule of thumb" is to ongoing take the same number of female as male deer annually. Many hunter-managers are finding they need to take more female than male deer annually to make up for adjoining properties that take too few females (although I think BSK has had just the opposite circumstance in his neighbors literally wiping out the doe herd).

A few years ago, the State of KY had had a much more balanced-sex harvest than TN for many consecutive years (although TN has somewhat caught up over the past few years). IMO, this ongoing more balanced-sex harvest contributed greatly to hunters "seeing" more bucks while hunting in KY vs. when those same hunters hunted in TN.

The good news is there is much less difference in the hunting experience (TN vs. KY) today than there was a few years ago. While it's stayed about the same in KY, it's gotten much better in TN.

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#3259226 - 06/01/13 12:14 PM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
A good "rule of thumb" is to ongoing take the same number of female as male deer annually. Many hunter-managers are finding they need to take more female than male deer annually to make up for adjoining properties that take too few females...


Agreed.


 Quote:
(although I think BSK has had just the opposite circumstance in his neighbors literally wiping out the doe herd).


We pounded the does, yet with only 3/4 of a square miles of "effect" does could easily avoid us around the perimeter and then filter back in post-season. However, once our "neighbor" (a very large National Wildlife Refuge) decided to decimate their doe population, the does no longer had anywhere to hide, hence their population has been knocked down hard, followed by several years of poor fawn survival which has prevented population rebound.


 Quote:
The good news is there is much less difference in the hunting experience (TN vs. KY) today than there was a few years ago. While it's stayed about the same in KY, it's gotten much better in TN.


Agreed.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3259229 - 06/01/13 12:16 PM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: Wes Parrish]
TN Whitetail Freak
8 Point


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1942
Loc: Bradford, TN (Gibson Co.)

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I think TN should have a 0 buck limit for a year
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#3260125 - 06/02/13 08:29 PM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: scn]
gator-n-buck
WAFL
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 22378
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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I visit a few times per year.....
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#3260480 - 06/03/13 10:58 AM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: gator-n-buck]
Roost 1
10 Point


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 4323
Loc: KY

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I think comparing KY to Iowa or Illinios is like comparing apples and oranges.
Take away KY rifle season and the number of trophy deer drops considerably.
Add a rifle season to the Midwestern states and there trophy harvests jump considerably. KDFWR will find out over time the rifle and the bulldozer along with the constant influx of out of state hunters will be detrimental to the "trophy program" they are so proud of. All they are worried about is revenue but when the resource is depleted the revenue will also be gone. I personally wish they would either do away with the center fire rifle season or at least reduce the number of days. 16 days of rifle hunting during the rut is too much in my opinion.
Let me add I live in a "trophy county" where the hunting is very commercialized.
In my opinion a hunter should not ever want their home state to be labelled as a "trophy state." Nothing good will ever come of it unless you own a bunch of land and want to lease it out or become an outfitter.
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#3260769 - 06/03/13 06:27 PM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: TN Whitetail Freak]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 8261
Loc: Grundy county

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 Originally Posted By: TN Whitetail Freak
I think TN should have a 0 buck limit for a year
I hope I never have to share the woods with someone with this kind of intelligence.
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#3262546 - 06/06/13 06:52 AM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: timberjack86]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 42243
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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LOL- I just hope I never have to share the woods with anyone. I haven't seen another deer hunter in many years while hunting. I have zero peer pressure as to what I should or shouldn't shoot, what time to climb down, what time to go, what day(s) to sleep in, how long my shots should be or anything else.

I have laws to obey and ethics to consider.

I have never enjoyed hunting as much as I do now.
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#3262777 - 06/06/13 11:57 AM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: BSK]
MattR
8 Point


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1714
Loc: Nashville

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BSK, how did that affect the rut, the 2:1 ratio? It seems like everyone around the Nashville the rut was on fire but that was far from my experience this year. I would think your talking about somewhere a ways from nashville too right? everywhere I have beenit seems they are overpopulated.

Edited by MattRitter (06/06/13 12:20 PM)
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#3262808 - 06/06/13 12:30 PM Re: KY ranked as top Trophy Whitetail state [Re: MattR]
DKO77
4 Point


Registered: 03/29/13
Posts: 166
Loc: TN

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Who wants to chew on a piece of OLD tuff buck meat anyways - Im proud of my TENNESSEE BUCKS - GO VOLS!!!
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