Tndeer Logo

Page all of 2 12>
Topic Options
#3252190 - 05/21/13 07:16 PM Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer
Trapper John
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/13/99
Posts: 11828
Loc: La Vergne,TN/Decaturville, TN

Offline
We finally had a new plan drawn up for the timber management part of our property. Long story short, we're due for some cutting to clear some of the "trash" trees so the more valuable timber has a chance to grow without as much competition.

I seem to recall from past reading that such cutting can be beneficial to the deer. Am I right?

The property has been divided up into zones, each zone being between 5 and 10 acres. One-third of these zones will be cut this year, followed by another 1/3 in ten years, and again ten years later. The cutting won't exactly be a clear cut, but it's not going to be pretty. Lots of junk to clear out.

I'm pretty much trying to refresh my memory on this type of cutting and its impact on deer and simultaneously calm myself down after giving the go ahead for this to happen while knowing that some of my current stands are in the areas set to be cut at some point.

Opinions?

Top
#3252247 - 05/21/13 08:18 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: Trapper John]
diamond hunter
6 Point


Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 815
Loc: Goodlettsville Tennessee USA

Offline
Id cut it all now,you wont know it happened in a few years and the deer hunting will be terrific the entire time.Dont cut those persimmons.
_________________________
John Hancock,diamond hunter

Top
#3252284 - 05/21/13 08:45 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: diamond hunter]
primos32
6 Point


Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Savannah, TN

Offline
If your just removing low value trees, I would consider cutting all the zones soon for biggest economic return from your more valuable trees. However, spreading it out will give the deer patches of different habitat consistently over time.
Top
#3252316 - 05/21/13 09:12 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: primos32]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19342
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
Will be great for the deer, but think you're spreading the cutting over too long a time period.
Top
#3252494 - 05/22/13 07:10 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: Wes Parrish]
Boll Weevil
8 Point


Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 1238
Loc: Hardeman

content Online
Trapper,

We're doing something like this but it's really more thinning to release crop trees; it'll be almost continuous until we get it where it needs to be. Kind of depends on your goals as oftentimes habitat management and maximizing economic return aren't parallel. In our case, thinning will indeed benefit wildlife but for this particular activity it's truly about increasing longterm economic value.

Top
#3252548 - 05/22/13 08:19 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: Boll Weevil]
treefarmer
4 Point


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 347
Loc: Humphreys County, TN

Offline
John,

We are doing the exact same thing on our Humphrey's County Tree Farm. I have removed the junk trees on 2/3 of our hardwood property and am planning a timber sale (use a consultant!) this fall for about 1/3 of the areas, in 10-12 acre spots. I'm planning a clear cut so the sun loving high value oak trees take over instead of the undesireable low value sweetgum, maple, hickory, etc. A clear cut recovers faster, is better for wildlife and brings a better financial return. I'm eager to see the wildlife response.

Top
#3253036 - 05/22/13 07:21 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: treefarmer]
Boll Weevil
8 Point


Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 1238
Loc: Hardeman

content Online
Treefarmer,

I'd be very interested in your outcomes/how the project moves along and if you don't mind, zip me a note every so often. I'd be happy to share how things are progressing at my place.

WHAT WAS THAT?!? AS MUCH AS I'D LIKE TO CHAT NOW I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE CHAINSAW!!!

Good luck to you.

Top
#3253609 - 05/23/13 03:16 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: Trapper John]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25489
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Trapper John
We finally had a new plan drawn up for the timber management part of our property. Long story short, we're due for some cutting to clear some of the "trash" trees so the more valuable timber has a chance to grow without as much competition.

I seem to recall from past reading that such cutting can be beneficial to the deer. Am I right?

The property has been divided up into zones, each zone being between 5 and 10 acres. One-third of these zones will be cut this year, followed by another 1/3 in ten years, and again ten years later. The cutting won't exactly be a clear cut, but it's not going to be pretty. Lots of junk to clear out.

I'm pretty much trying to refresh my memory on this type of cutting and its impact on deer and simultaneously calm myself down after giving the go ahead for this to happen while knowing that some of my current stands are in the areas set to be cut at some point.

Opinions?
Should improve the habitat,and I sure wouldnt worry about cleaning up the "junk".Makes good bedding areas,and will be gone sooner than you think. JMO
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

You wont know,if you dont go!


Top
#3254216 - 05/24/13 11:04 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: Football Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65444
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
Trapper,

That's an excellent plan. Considering you will be doing all the property, 10 years between cuttings will work. Personally, I like my rotations more rapid (fewer years between cuttings), but that requires many more cuttings. For thinnings, I like to thin 10% of the property every 3 years, which means all of the property eventually gets thinned over 30 years. For fairly intense cuts, I like 10% of the property being heavily cut ever 6 years, which means all of the property eventually gets cut over 60 years.

Rotational systems like you are using help keep a similar percentage of the property in the different important stages of regrowth over the long-term.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3255313 - 05/26/13 07:58 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: treefarmer]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 7989
Loc: Grundy county

happy Online
 Originally Posted By: treefarmer
John,

We are doing the exact same thing on our Humphrey's County Tree Farm. I have removed the junk trees on 2/3 of our hardwood property and am planning a timber sale (use a consultant!) this fall for about 1/3 of the areas, in 10-12 acre spots. I'm planning a clear cut so the sun loving high value oak trees take over instead of the undesireable low value sweetgum, maple, hickory, etc. A clear cut recovers faster, is better for wildlife and brings a better financial return. I'm eager to see the wildlife response.
I agree with everything except your financial return. Please note I am just a logger and not a forester. My experience is that when you let sunlight in on your trees with high value you are infact killing your future profit. Let me explain. The best timber grows in areas where the trees have to compete for sunlight. The farther they have to reach, the taller they grow. And for high dollar timber you want all the limbs at the top. Not growing all the way up the tree. The only way this can happen is the tree has to reach high for sunlight. Straight long limbless logs make high quality timber. If you doubt me take a look at any tree in full sun. It will be short and bushy. Great for wildlife but not for profit.When I work for someone who wants to manage for wildlife we useally do a clearcut. We leave some oaks for mast. If he is wanting to maximize profit from his timber we will do a select cut useally down to 14 inchs in diamerter. This leaves the young trees with some shade and will give the landowner another cutting in 10-15 years. This is where there is conflict, managing for wildlife and also producing maximum profits from your timber.
_________________________
Team Run 'N Gunners

Top
#3255575 - 05/27/13 08:59 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65444
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
timberjack86,

I agree with you about what makes a valuable tree, and what will turn the best profit in the short term. But when it comes to tall, straight, limbless trunks (high-value mature trees), the best mature timber, especially veneer-quality trees, come from areas that were clear-cut many years previous. Like you mentioned, trees that must grow vertically as quickly as possible make the highest value timber. When all trees from seedling through sapling through maturity are having to reach upwards as quickly as possible (the situation where all saplings are reaching and competing for canopy space in a clear-cut from their first year of growth), the genetics for tall, straight, limbless growth is naturally selected for and the best timber value trees flourish while lesser-quality trees are shaded out by their tall-growing neighbors. Nearly every time I've seen a complete grove of veneer-quality oaks harvested, their rings show all the trees in the area are the same age, indicating that all trees in the area began growth the same year (the result of a clear-cut or at least a very heavy timber harvest).

The downside to clear-cutting is that most land-owners will never see the 2nd return on their profit. A clear-cut area in most parts of TN will require 60-75 years of growth before the trees are mature enough to be of veneer quality. Profits are maximized by thinnings that allow repeated harvests of the same area (every 15-30 years, depending on the intensity/size-limit of each harvest). However, the quality of the trees are not as good from repeat thinnings, as peak growing conditions for high-quality timber are not produced through thinnings.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3257481 - 05/29/13 08:02 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: BSK]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 7989
Loc: Grundy county

happy Online
 Originally Posted By: BSK
timberjack86,

I agree with you about what makes a valuable tree, and what will turn the best profit in the short term. But when it comes to tall, straight, limbless trunks (high-value mature trees), the best mature timber, especially veneer-quality trees, come from areas that were clear-cut many years previous. Like you mentioned, trees that must grow vertically as quickly as possible make the highest value timber. When all trees from seedling through sapling through maturity are having to reach upwards as quickly as possible (the situation where all saplings are reaching and competing for canopy space in a clear-cut from their first year of growth), the genetics for tall, straight, limbless growth is naturally selected for and the best timber value trees flourish while lesser-quality trees are shaded out by their tall-growing neighbors. Nearly every time I've seen a complete grove of veneer-quality oaks harvested, their rings show all the trees in the area are the same age, indicating that all trees in the area began growth the same year (the result of a clear-cut or at least a very heavy timber harvest).

The downside to clear-cutting is that most land-owners will never see the 2nd return on their profit. A clear-cut area in most parts of TN will require 60-75 years of growth before the trees are mature enough to be of veneer quality. Profits are maximized by thinnings that allow repeated harvests of the same area (every 15-30 years, depending on the intensity/size-limit of each harvest). However, the quality of the trees are not as good from repeat thinnings, as peak growing conditions for high-quality timber are not produced through thinnings.
I agree completely and I think It might take even longer for a clearcut to produce valuable timber Like 100 years mabey more. My dad is 71 and can show me timber lands that were cleared when he was a child and they still have yet to produce a valuable tree. and therefore I never ever recommend a clearcut for any client interested in future profits for himself.
_________________________
Team Run 'N Gunners

Top
#3257759 - 05/30/13 07:37 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65444
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
Each location will have a "site index"--a measure of how tall trees will grow in 25 or 50 years. Some locations, such as steep south-facing slopes, will have low site indexes, while wetter north-facing slopes can have much higher site indexes.

When I'm part of a timber harvest project, I try to ring-age the timber that is cut, to get an idea of the local site index. I've seen 24" DBH veneer-quality white and red oaks in a good site index area that are only 65 years old. However, they may require 80+ years to achieve the same growth in a poorer site index area (and won't exist at all in very poor site index areas--those sites will be dominated by other species of tree).

When cutting timber specifically for wildlife management purposes, I tend to recommend much heavier cuts than would be recommended for long-term monetary gain.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3258545 - 05/31/13 09:28 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: BSK]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16919
Loc: Allardt, TN

Offline
I walked one of my timber cuts from 2 winters ago yesterday in the middle of the day. Browse and cover everywhere. Ended up jumping 4 deer out of a 5 acre cut. A deer wouldnt have been in there before, it was just wide open hardwoods. Browsing was evident in that cut. It's worth it, IMO.
_________________________
-QDM=Better Deer, Better Deer Hunting
-Let Him Go, So He Can Grow

Top
#3258580 - 05/31/13 10:28 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: smstone22]
treefarmer
4 Point


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 347
Loc: Humphreys County, TN

Offline
Several years ago my Area Forester visited my forest, took core samples and he told me it is time to cut my quality oak forest because the trees are mature and have almost quit growing. He then looked at the understory to see what the next forest would be after I cut. We only saw the shade loving trees such as elm, hickory, hornbeam etc. so he told me I need to get rid of the junk understory to allow oaks to come in. That way the next forest will be the oaks we all love. I spent several winters with a chain saw and herbicide getting rid of the junk trees. This fall I'm going to walk my woods with a forester and if there is advance regeneration of oaks I will plan some clearcutting. Timberjack, perhaps the land that was clear-cut years ago and still doesn't have a quality tree didn't have any oaks in the understory when it was cut.
Top
#3258832 - 05/31/13 05:36 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: treefarmer]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65444
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
treefarmer,

You're doing it right.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3258923 - 05/31/13 08:18 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: treefarmer]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 7989
Loc: Grundy county

happy Online
 Originally Posted By: treefarmer
Several years ago my Area Forester visited my forest, took core samples and he told me it is time to cut my quality oak forest because the trees are mature and have almost quit growing. He then looked at the understory to see what the next forest would be after I cut. We only saw the shade loving trees such as elm, hickory, hornbeam etc. so he told me I need to get rid of the junk understory to allow oaks to come in. That way the next forest will be the oaks we all love. I spent several winters with a chain saw and herbicide getting rid of the junk trees. This fall I'm going to walk my woods with a forester and if there is advance regeneration of oaks I will plan some clearcutting. Timberjack, perhaps the land that was clear-cut years ago and still doesn't have a quality tree didn't have any oaks in the understory when it was cut.
I am sure there was some. Its hard to walk in a mature forest without some oaks in the understory. There are lots of oaks in the clearcuts. Problem is they are 30 feet high with limbs from the bottom all the way to the top. Not quality timber imo.
_________________________
Team Run 'N Gunners

Top
#3259133 - 06/01/13 08:34 AM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65444
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
Exactly what treefarmer described can be a real problem for oak forest regeneration. Often, very mature oak forests have a mid-story of shade-tolerant trees such as beech, hickory, and maple. Cut out all the oaks and the mid-story will dominate the stand, rapidly creating a low but complete canopy and preventing the growth of oak saplings. In fact, the sudden removal of all the oaks prevents oak sapling growth because of a lack of acorns once sunlight can hit the ground.

The very BEST method is to first cut any non-oaks from the mature timber as well as removing the shade-tolerant mid-story. Holes in the canopy produced by non-oak removal allows some sunlight on the ground which in turn allows some acorn sprouting. After a year or two of acorn sprouting, THEN remove the mature oaks. This greatly increases oak regeneration, as a large supply of oak seedlings are present at the time of complete canopy removal.

The downside to this better form of timber harvest is that you will not be able to find a logger willing to conduct the first cut. The non-oaks and shade-tolerant mid-story have no monetary value.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3260763 - 06/03/13 06:22 PM Re: Rotation Cutting Impact on Deer [Re: BSK]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 7989
Loc: Grundy county

happy Online
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Exactly what treefarmer described can be a real problem for oak forest regeneration. Often, very mature oak forests have a mid-story of shade-tolerant trees such as beech, hickory, and maple. Cut out all the oaks and the mid-story will dominate the stand, rapidly creating a low but complete canopy and preventing the growth of oak saplings. In fact, the sudden removal of all the oaks prevents oak sapling growth because of a lack of acorns once sunlight can hit the ground.

The very BEST method is to first cut any non-oaks from the mature timber as well as removing the shade-tolerant mid-story. Holes in the canopy produced by non-oak removal allows some sunlight on the ground which in turn allows some acorn sprouting. After a year or two of acorn sprouting, THEN remove the mature oaks. This greatly increases oak regeneration, as a large supply of oak seedlings are present at the time of complete canopy removal.

The downside to this better form of timber harvest is that you will not be able to find a logger willing to conduct the first cut. The non-oaks and shade-tolerant mid-story have no monetary value.
Great info guys! Thanks!
_________________________
Team Run 'N Gunners

Top
Page all of 2 12>


Moderator:  Bobby G, Unicam, CBU93, stretch, Kimber45, Mrs.Unicam, Crappie Luck 
Hop to:
Top Posters
4105624
RUGER
87185
Deer Assassin
65444
BSK
61098
Crappie Luck
51376
spitndrum
Newest Members
OfficerBuck, rapalabuck, medic2fpc, MachDR, pop
13308 Registered Users
Who's Online
126 registered (416wbymag, Nyper, MUP, redhunterZ71, Redwing, choupique, 20 invisible) and 186 anonymous users online.
Forum Stats
13308 Members
42 Forums
93966 Topics
1097669 Posts

Max Online: 788 @ 11/11/13 08:06 PM
Moon Phase
CURRENT MOON
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Forum Donations
The TnDeer.Com Deer Talk Forum is for Tennessee Deer Hunters by Tennessee Deer Hunters. If you enjoy using our Talk Forum and would like to contribute to help in it's up-keep. Just submit your contribution by clicking on the DONATE button below and paying with PayPal or a major credit card. Any amount is much appreciated. Thanks for your support!

TN Burn Safe

Generated in 0.131 seconds in which 0.001 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.