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#3220215 - 04/12/13 09:04 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: MUP]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: MUP
It surely doesn't define my relationship between my wife and I either Bryan, but what I become concerned with is children, that, in an ever increasingly liberal, deviant culture, will tend to adopt this type behavior. And I don't want it to define my children's relationships either, but, as we all know, societal pressures can deter even the best upbringing, this from a christian aspect of course tho.


Because I went back and editted/added to my previous post above, let me repost what i added above:

 Quote:
But to one of your points above, I absolutely agree that the traditional "nuclear family" produces the best chances at well-balanced children who become good members of society at adulthood. It doesn't by any means guaratee good members of society, nor do untraditional family units automatically produce poorly adjusted young adults, but the tradition family unit has the best chance of producing good citizens.


So to your point MUP, I do agree that the traditional family is best, but I'm very hesitant to disallow other options just because it MIGHT produce less adjusted children. I don't like the idea of limiting people's liberties simply because providing those liberties may produce a negative outcome for society. With Freedom and Liberty comes real risks...

I also want to clearly state that I respect those--who for religious or other reasons--see homosexuality as "deviant" behavior, and see legalization of gay marriage as government promotion and "normalization" of deviant behavior. I fully understand these beliefs. I disagree withthis viewpoint, but respect those who feel this way.
_________________________
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#3220222 - 04/12/13 09:11 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: MUP
It surely doesn't define my relationship between my wife and I either Bryan, but what I become concerned with is children, that, in an ever increasingly liberal, deviant culture, will tend to adopt this type behavior. And I don't want it to define my children's relationships either, but, as we all know, societal pressures can deter even the best upbringing, this from a christian aspect of course tho.


Because I went back and editted/added to my previous post above, let me repost what i added above:

 Quote:
But to one of your points above, I absolutely agree that the traditional "nuclear family" produces the best chances at well-balanced children who become good members of society at adulthood. It doesn't by any means guaratee good members of society, nor do untraditional family units automatically produce poorly adjusted young adults, but the tradition family unit has the best chance of producing good citizens.


So to your point MUP, I do agree that the traditional family is best, but I'm very hesitant to disallow other options just because it MIGHT produce less adjusted children. I don't like the idea of limiting people's liberties simply because providing those liberties may produce a negative outcome for society. With Freedom and Liberty comes real risks...

I also want to clearly state that I respect those--who for religious or other reasons--see homosexuality as "deviant" behavior, and see legalization of gay marriage as government promotion and "normalization" of deviant behavior. I fully understand these beliefs. I disagree withthis viewpoint, but respect those who feel this way.


Along with CL, I'm most upset about the way gays and lesbians "flaunt" their behavior, and thus "push" their agenda and "lifestyle" on the rest of society. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you don't see "straight days" or "days of silence" for straight folks. Anyone has the right to their own beliefs and to live their life accordingly imo, I just don't like someone telling me that I have to conforom to their way of thinking how life is, or that I must condone it or be labeled a hate-monger or closed-minded. Thanks for the very straight-forward debate guys. ;\)
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#3220281 - 04/12/13 09:56 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: MUP]
fishboy1
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Registered: 01/13/03
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BSK brings up a good point.

We should be careful about "disallowing" things.....period.
And by Disallow I mean giving government the power and authority to interfere with our lives.

Where I disagree with the notion is when it is taken to the extreme of creating a legal basis, endorssement, or protection for some idea or policy via the government.

Experimenting with your own private individual personal life is your right. If you make a mistake in judgement, the damage is limited, primarily to you.

Forcing that experiment on others through government policy is what has led America down a path leading to the septic pond of humanity.

Look at all the "well meaning" government programs which are imploding. Welfare is causing poverty and fueling addiction, affirmative action is harming minorities, CRA and government backed loans caused the biggest wave of bankruptcy in the history of our country....

NONE of those MANDATED policies were PROHIBITED. Private citizens were free to experiment with giving loans to people with no jobs or credit on their own private dime. Charity is abundantly available through private organizations..... I can give my money to the lazy bum down the street so he doesn't have to go get a job, or to the druggie so he can get his next fix.

Notice how there isn't much PRIVATE support for those bad policies ???? But there is a lot of support for those "experiments" because they MIGHT turn out ok "in some cases" ??

IT is very easy (and dangerous) to endorse experimenting with society when it is someone else's money that pays for it, and someone else's life that is crushed, and someone elses pain that is felt when the experiment fails.

That is in part where liberals get their superior attitude and god complex. They can make decisions/endorsements which FORCE compliance yet only hurt "other people" if they are wrong.
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#3220429 - 04/12/13 01:07 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: MUP]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: MUP
Along with CL, I'm most upset about the way gays and lesbians "flaunt" their behavior, and thus "push" their agenda and "lifestyle" on the rest of society. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you don't see "straight days" or "days of silence" for straight folks. Anyone has the right to their own beliefs and to live their life accordingly imo, I just don't like someone telling me that I have to conforom to their way of thinking how life is, or that I must condone it or be labeled a hate-monger or closed-minded. Thanks for the very straight-forward debate guys. ;\)


I couldn't agree more MUP. And surprisingly, so do some of the gay people I know. They can understand other gay people not being ashamed of who they are, but can't imagine what there is about their own personal sexual orientation that needs to be "celebrated."

I'm a guy who likes women. So what? I'm not ashamed of that but I'm certainly not going to be marching in any "Guys Who Like Women Pride" parades. I'm of European heritage. I'm not ashamed of that but I also associate no specific "pride" towards that fact. My genetic background is what it is. I'm not looking for the next "Old WHite Guys Pride Day" celebration. Many gay people feel "Gay Pride" celebrations are harmful to their efforts towards being accepted as Human Beings as well as equal and productive members of society, rather than the societally destroying demons some see them as.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3220471 - 04/12/13 02:05 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64971
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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
We should be careful about "disallowing" things.....period.
And by Disallow I mean giving government the power and authority to interfere with our lives.

Where I disagree with the notion is when it is taken to the extreme of creating a legal basis, endorssement, or protection for some idea or policy via the government.


I agree fishboy1. I want to see no "special" priviledges (beyond just equal treatment and rights) for any group. But we all know how every special interest group works...
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3220637 - 04/12/13 06:18 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4028
Loc: Middle TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK


So to your point MUP, I do agree that the traditional family is best, but I'm very hesitant to disallow other options just because it MIGHT produce less adjusted children. I don't like the idea of limiting people's liberties simply because providing those liberties may produce a negative outcome for society. With Freedom and Liberty comes real risks...

I also want to clearly state that I respect those--who for religious or other reasons--see homosexuality as "deviant" behavior, and see legalization of gay marriage as government promotion and "normalization" of deviant behavior. I fully understand these beliefs. I disagree withthis viewpoint, but respect those who feel this way.


I would ask who thinks they have a right to conduct social experiments with orphan children in the hopes a gay couple "may" raise them up properly? History has shown heterosexual couples raising poorly adjusted children is the exception. While I will wager that a gay couple raising well adjusted kids will likewise turn out to be the exception. How many gay parents will encourage their teenage kids to just try a homosexual relationship? How do you think a completely heterosexual teenager will feel after he mimics his "parent's" gay lifestyle for a time and finds out, oops, this ain't for me?

As far as deviant behavior the average homosexual generally has more sex partners than the most promiscuous of heterosexuals. The effects of the homosexual lifestyle are more damaging to ones lifespan than smoking. The rates of mental disorders and pedophilia among homosexuals dwarfs the rates of the rest of society. So if you're basing your beliefs on your monogamous, loving gay couples in your life they are the exceptions.
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“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

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#3221023 - 04/13/13 10:24 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: de novo]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: de novo
History has shown heterosexual couples raising poorly adjusted children is the exception.


Actually, psychological studies show poorly adjusted children being raised by heterosexual parents is a rapidly growing problem.


 Quote:
I would ask who thinks they have a right to conduct social experiments with orphan children in the hopes a gay couple "may" raise them up properly?


I find the idea of people thinking they can allow or disallow other people's opportunity to be parents truly disgusting, and honestly quite frightening. Who thinks they have the "right" to decide this? That smacks of some of the horrific experiments the Nazis were involved in.


 Quote:
As far as deviant behavior the average homosexual generally has more sex partners than the most promiscuous of heterosexuals. The effects of the homosexual lifestyle are more damaging to ones lifespan than smoking. The rates of mental disorders and pedophilia among homosexuals dwarfs the rates of the rest of society.


The above is so outrageously false, it doesn't deserve comment.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3221043 - 04/13/13 11:18 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10525
Loc: Warren Co

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So, by your thinking..... having children is a "right".

What about adoption?

Who is qualified?
Married Hetero couple?
Single white guy?
Gay couple?
Crack Ho?
Pedophile?
Pimp?
Drug Cartel Lt. ?
Muslim sex trader?

Here is where the argument that "having" meaning in this case, to possess, is a RIGHT. Those who "have" the children have the "RIGHT" to determine who is qualified to take ownership of them. AND SOMEBODY RESPONSIBLE AND SENSIBLE SHOULD be evaluating who is qualified based on the best interests of the child. NOT based on some perceived social wrong or invented "right".

Natural parenting rights, through reproduction is another matter. The government should NOT be involved at all. YES there are sorry people out there who should not be allowed to have head lice let alone children. That is a hard cost of freedom. You cant save everyone.

BUT
By putting government in charge and creating "rights", you REMOVE the common sense and flexibility of freedom and more importantly social morals and social pressure.

Ex. Private adoption agency decides to experiment and allow a gay couple to adopt a child. They monitor and discover that the gay couple are poor parents for whatever reason and remove the child in the trial period. They can then evaluate and decide if it is in the interest of children to discontinue that practice. Couple can re-apply but agency has the flexibility to deny the request.

ENTER GOVERNMENT... Adoption agencies are FORCED to adopt out children to a certain quota of gay couples that apply. It is discovered that a % of them are poor parents for whatever reason. When/if the agency removes the child, then the "parents rights" have been violated.

Discrimination would be the cry and lawsuits filed. The issue would become "gay rights" "parent rights", NOT the best interest of the child. Government would FORCE the return of the child based on some INVENTED right of gays to marry and "have" children. The child is imprisoned in a dysfunctional family until they turn 18 or run away. More likely they will become poorly adjusted and have emotional problems well into adulthood.
All in the interest of a social experiment and a misguided view of "fairness".

Social pressure would also be illegal. The gay couples family members, friends, neighbors, and the child's teachers, would be violating "gay parent rights" if they put pressure on them to be better parents, behave differently, raise the child differently, give the child up, or report them to the authorities for abuse/neglect. Hate crimes or hate speech could provide a protective defense for anyone criticizing poor parenting.

Here again, having government "fix" something creates a whole boat load of additional problems.
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#3221113 - 04/13/13 03:10 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: de novo
History has shown heterosexual couples raising poorly adjusted children is the exception.


Actually, psychological studies show poorly adjusted children being raised by heterosexual parents is a rapidly growing problem.


Please share these studies with us. And to be relevant they should compare straight and gay couples.



 Originally Posted By: BSK
I find the idea of people thinking they can allow or disallow other people's opportunity to be parents truly disgusting, and honestly quite frightening. Who thinks they have the "right" to decide this? That smacks of some of the horrific experiments the Nazis were involved in.


I'm speaking of adoption not those who can biologically have children. Is it disgusting to prevent adoption by pedophiles? Where do you draw the line? Can a special needs adult that can't take care of themselves be given a child?


 Originally Posted By: de novo
As far as deviant behavior the average homosexual generally has more sex partners than the most promiscuous of heterosexuals. The effects of the homosexual lifestyle are more damaging to ones lifespan than smoking. The rates of mental disorders and pedophilia among homosexuals dwarfs the rates of the rest of society.



 Originally Posted By: BSK
The above is so outrageously false, it doesn't deserve comment.


This one article discounts everything you have posted on the entire thread. http://www.wnd.com/2002/04/13722/

I don't have a habit of making outrageously false statements.
In the article below, the author doesn't dispute the rate of mental disorders in the LGBT community but attributes it to the attitude of the rest of society.

In this article the author reviews research evidence on the prevalence of mental disorders in lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals (LGBs) and shows, using meta-analyses, that LGBs have a higher prevalence of mental disorders than heterosexuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2072932/

Gay men's lif spans 20 years shorter than heterosexual

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive//ldn/2005/jun/05060606

http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/22SxSo/PnSx/HSx/hosx_lifspn.htm

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy...iw=1366&bih=673

The illusion that the homosexual lifestyle is a normal way of living has been successfully propagated by promoting a "victim" image for homosexual persons, and by the pseudo-science alleging a ‘gay" gene.

Of the reports alleging, or promising soon down the road, a "gay" gene, not a single one has survived scientific peer review. There is no "gay" gene.

On the other hand, the evidence does show that homosexual persons are indeed victims -- but overwhelmingly of their own behavior, not that of others.

Typical homosexual behavior includes regular contact with fecal matter from oneself and from sexual partners, tragically reversing several centuries of learning about cleanliness, and thus several centuries of growing lifespan. Homosexual behavior makes no more sense than playing in the toilet.

All available evidence indicates that the lifespan of practicing homosexual persons is drastically shortened by their behavior. No reliable study indicates otherwise. The lifespan topic is taboo among homosexual advocates because the evidence is so damaging to their case.

The following information has been adapted from website: http://web.archive.org/web/20010124040800/www.cprmd.org/Myth_Fact_004.htm References are cited in chronological order. This information represents a fair summary of the available evidence concerning homosexual lifespan. It indicates that on average, even apart from AIDS, homosexual persons will probably not live past their 40’s, an appalling loss of about 30 years, or nearly 40% of normal American lifespan.
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“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

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#3221153 - 04/13/13 04:40 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: de novo]
Pic IN the Casa
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^^^^^^ Yep.
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