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#3219181 - 04/11/13 08:26 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61007
Loc: Smith Co.

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
I also don't care what people do. But I differ from you in that I feel gay marriage effects me and the institution of marriage in a negative way.


I've never understood this argument. How does allowing gay people to marry effect you and your marriage, or the the "institution" of marriage? (and what is the "institution" of marriage?)

'
Marriage as an institution is terms of on what the foundation of our culture is built and to what norms we as a society follow.

The decay of this fabric is visible all around us. Marriage as a root of our culture and a pillar of our society has already rotted at the base and is barely standing. Divorce, Hollywood influence, the increase in single parents, the hook-up culture and a self-serving society of narcissists who marry for convenience and divorce for the same reason is already eating at the stability of our nation. The generations we're raising up now are the dumbest and most confident in nothing generation yet.

Without a root culture of a solid family unit, we as a society are MUCH more willing to forgo the traditions and struggles of the past and embrace "new" ideas of promised utopia. The result is a loss of liberty, an increase in poverty, illiteracy and violence.

I'm not suggesting that gay marriage creates a society of violent pan handlers who can't read their own "Will work for food" signs. But I AM suggesting that it is just another brick removed from our footing as a culture.

Some may welcome the changing landscape of American values and tradition. I, for one, do not and I've yet to see evidence that it's beneficial.
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

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#3219194 - 04/11/13 08:44 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61007
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
[quote=Crappie Luck]
 Quote:
As for the issue of rights, Homosexuals should enjoy that same rights guaranteed in the Constitution as the rest of us. If they are not specifically listed, they are not rights at all, they are privileges granted by a benevolent Government.


I agree, but the right to not be descriminated against is something I believe in. I also believe this right is an intent of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.


I guess I just don't see the lack of gay marriage as discrimination. It's just not an option. All roads in life lead you to a menu of choices. Marriage is just not on the gay menu.

What benefits do unmarried couples enjoy that gays do not? People live together, have children and live happily their entire lives. Are they discriminated against when one dies and the other doesn't collect? What about single people? They don't enjoy the tax breaks either. Is that discrimination? No less than that which the homosexuals claim it is.

Different choices in life lead you to different options. The presence or absences of other people's choices does not automatically signal oppression or unconstitutional denial of rights.
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

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#3219218 - 04/11/13 09:31 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: Crappie Luck]
fishboy1
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Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
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So just to be clear.....
What EXACTLY are the "rights" enjoyed by Married people that are not afforded to gays and single couples?

Please give specifics. Thanks!
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If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#3219226 - 04/11/13 09:43 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
fishboy1
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Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
ANOTHER long string of bad government policy ? One that opens the door for abuse and degrading society?


Without question, every time the government attempts to "regulate" or control anything, they screw it up. Every "good" policy ends up creating a dozen bad, unintended policies. That's just a fact of governance experienced by all societies that have governments.


And THAT is why I am a conservative.
There are ALWAYS consequences to a law/policy. Some intended, some unintended. It is a FACT that we loose a little bit of our liberty and self governance with EVERY law that is passed.
(Which is why conservatives believe in LESS government involvement in our lives)
Once a law is passed and the consequences start rolling in, the status quo is to pass MORE laws to try and correct the symptoms of bad policy. You almost NEVER hear about repealing a bad policy and shrinking government meddling.

We have been conditioned to believe that the answer to bad policy is more policy, NOT the obvious common sense choice of ELIMINATING THE BAD POLICY!!

The gay community is in for a rude awakening down the road when the government they thought they had on a leash turns around and bites them. One obvious hammer that WILL fall on them is Obommacare. They will be labeled a "high risk" category and have super high premiums. Special taxes and fines will likely be implemented by some bureaucrat to help pay for the increased risk. This is one obvious reason why I think they are crazy/stupid for INVITING the government into the private personal lives.
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#3219229 - 04/11/13 09:45 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: fishboy1]
MUP
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Registered: 08/01/07
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Excellent observation fishboy! That is, unless we end up paying for their "high risk" behavior thru more govt taxes and such.
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Amateurs: Built the Ark

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#3219296 - 04/11/13 11:02 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: MUP]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: MUP
Excellent observation fishboy! That is, unless we end up paying for their "high risk" behavior thru more govt taxes and such.


Why do you think they are screaming for "spousal rights" now?
#1. is to get insurance coverage through their partners work policy. Thereby shoving some/most of the cost of their high premiums off on the employer.
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#3220173 - 04/12/13 08:32 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: Crappie Luck]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65401
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I've never understood this argument. How does allowing gay people to marry effect you and your marriage, or the the "institution" of marriage? (and what is the "institution" of marriage?)

'
Marriage as an institution is terms of on what the foundation of our culture is built and to what norms we as a society follow.

The decay of this fabric is visible all around us. Marriage as a root of our culture and a pillar of our society has already rotted at the base and is barely standing. Divorce, Hollywood influence, the increase in single parents, the hook-up culture and a self-serving society of narcissists who marry for convenience and divorce for the same reason is already eating at the stability of our nation. The generations we're raising up now are the dumbest and most confident in nothing generation yet.

Without a root culture of a solid family unit, we as a society are MUCH more willing to forgo the traditions and struggles of the past and embrace "new" ideas of promised utopia. The result is a loss of liberty, an increase in poverty, illiteracy and violence.

I'm not suggesting that gay marriage creates a society of violent pan handlers who can't read their own "Will work for food" signs. But I AM suggesting that it is just another brick removed from our footing as a culture.

Some may welcome the changing landscape of American values and tradition. I, for one, do not and I've yet to see evidence that it's beneficial.


Thanks for the excellent response CL.

I do agree that the rise in narcissism, self-absorbtion and selfishness are degrading our society. But I tend to see the divorce rate and decline of the "nuclear family" as symptoms of these problems rather than the cause of these problems. But I do agree that "Leftism" is the root of these societal personality issues.

I just don't think allowing gay couples the same right to marry as heterosexual couples automatically increases these societal problems. Nor do I believe what one couple does, or how they define their relationship legally or personally, has any influence on my marriage or how my wife and I define our relationship.

But to one of your points above, I absolutely agree that the traditional "nuclear family" produces the best chances at well-balanced children who become good members of society at adulthood. It doesn't by any means guaratee good members of society, nor do untraditional family units automatically produce poorly adjusted young adults, but the tradition family unit has the best chance of producing good citizens.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3220184 - 04/12/13 08:39 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
BirdDog123
4 Point


Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Tennesssee, US

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Wow, very articulate and thoughtful debate guys! Good job on presenting clear, intelligent, points for each side.
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#3220186 - 04/12/13 08:40 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
MUP
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Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 44807
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

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It surely doesn't define my relationship between my wife and I either Bryan, but what I become concerned with is children, that, in an ever increasingly liberal, deviant culture, will tend to adopt this type behavior. And I don't want it to define my children's relationships either, but, as we all know, societal pressures can deter even the best upbringing, this from a christian aspect of course tho.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3220196 - 04/12/13 08:46 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 61007
Loc: Smith Co.

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Nor do I believe what one couple does, or how they define their relationship legally or personally, has any influence on my marriage or how my wife and I define our relationship.


Nor do I. It's how Society and we, as a culture define those relationships that matters. People are free to label themselves as they see fit. They can do that now. What concerns me is the undefinition of marriage as a legal and official institution.

We can chase these victimized, civil issues until marriage is Chicken + Waffle. Once the initial redefining is done, what follows is just a matter of degree. The mortal wound will have already been inflicted.

Thanks for the compliment. I've enjoyed the debate as well \:\)
_________________________
"To find out who your real rulers are, simply look to those whom you CANNOT criticize..."
--Voltaire

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