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#3215341 - 04/06/13 07:45 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10493
Loc: Warren Co

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I think the "right" didn't have much fight in them.

Here is an argument that would change some minds.

"Who in their right mind would INVITE the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT into their personal life and bedroom? The argument for spousal rights is bogus. A $25 power of attorney and a will would handle 99% of the issues being discussed. MUCH cheaper than getting married.

So what IS The REAL issue? Normalizing deviant behavior under the smoke screen of "gay rights".
SO once homosexuality is "normal" and protected by law, what is next? Pedophilia? Bestiality? They will be the next "discriminated" class and demand their so called RIGHTS. What will happen to laws designed to protect children from sexual predators? Will they be declared discriminatory and unenforceable if a homosexual act is involved?

NOWHERE in the Constitution is the issue of MARRIAGE addressed. That means it is up to the STATES, CITIES, and CITIZENS to decide what is law. NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. So the entire idea that this is a national issue needing the involvement of the FEDERAL government is dead from the get go. The issue should be null and void on a federal level before it ever gets started.
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#3215632 - 04/07/13 08:45 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64229
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
I think the "right" didn't have much fight in them.

Here is an argument that would change some minds.

"Who in their right mind would INVITE the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT into their personal life and bedroom? The argument for spousal rights is bogus. A $25 power of attorney and a will would handle 99% of the issues being discussed. MUCH cheaper than getting married.

...NOWHERE in the Constitution is the issue of MARRIAGE addressed. That means it is up to the STATES, CITIES, and CITIZENS to decide what is law. NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. So the entire idea that this is a national issue needing the involvement of the FEDERAL government is dead from the get go. The issue should be null and void on a federal level before it ever gets started.


In my opinion, getting the government--all government from national to local--out of the marriage business is the right argument. Marriage is a social contract between two people. The idea of needing a government issued "license" to be married is ludicrous. A contract between those two people can easily be developed that would handle all necessary legal ramifications on issues of inheritance or divorce. Having the government involved at all is a mistake.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3215678 - 04/07/13 10:27 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 7551
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
I think the "right" didn't have much fight in them.

Here is an argument that would change some minds.

"Who in their right mind would INVITE the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT into their personal life and bedroom? The argument for spousal rights is bogus. A $25 power of attorney and a will would handle 99% of the issues being discussed. MUCH cheaper than getting married.

...NOWHERE in the Constitution is the issue of MARRIAGE addressed. That means it is up to the STATES, CITIES, and CITIZENS to decide what is law. NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. So the entire idea that this is a national issue needing the involvement of the FEDERAL government is dead from the get go. The issue should be null and void on a federal level before it ever gets started.


In my opinion, getting the government--all government from national to local--out of the marriage business is the right argument. Marriage is a social contract between two people. The idea of needing a government issued "license" to be married is ludicrous. A contract between those two people can easily be developed that would handle all necessary legal ramifications on issues of inheritance or divorce. Having the government involved at all is a mistake.


I tend to agree with the overall thrust of your argument, but it's seldom that simple. I'd also be interested in hearing on what basis you make the contention I've highlighted in red above; not that I disagree with it.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

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#3215711 - 04/07/13 11:22 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: Bambi Buster]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64229
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: BSK
In my opinion, getting the government--all government from national to local--out of the marriage business is the right argument. Marriage is a social contract between two people. The idea of needing a government issued "license" to be married is ludicrous. A contract between those two people can easily be developed that would handle all necessary legal ramifications on issues of inheritance or divorce. Having the government involved at all is a mistake.


I tend to agree with the overall thrust of your argument, but it's seldom that simple. I'd also be interested in hearing on what basis you make the contention I've highlighted in red above; not that I disagree with it.


Marriage is a social contract developed uniquely in each culture. Although there are a few examples of polygomist marriages in Western Culture, MOST societies in Western Culture haved based marriage on a paired bond. Not all, but the vast majority. This appears to be a common theme in Western Culture, probably based on the Judeo-Christian origin of Western Culture.

Although I'm not discounting what other cultures have found workable.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3216922 - 04/08/13 05:55 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
dr
10 Point


Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 4142
Loc: USA

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If same sex marriage is made legal, I expect some of these couples will demand that Christian ministers marry them. I believe their objective is to destroy churches with lawsuits, if ministers refuse.
_________________________
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him --- better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford

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#3217216 - 04/08/13 11:03 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 793
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Bambi Buster
 Originally Posted By: BSK
In my opinion, getting the government--all government from national to local--out of the marriage business is the right argument. Marriage is a social contract between two people. The idea of needing a government issued "license" to be married is ludicrous. A contract between those two people can easily be developed that would handle all necessary legal ramifications on issues of inheritance or divorce. Having the government involved at all is a mistake.


I tend to agree with the overall thrust of your argument, but it's seldom that simple. I'd also be interested in hearing on what basis you make the contention I've highlighted in red above; not that I disagree with it.


Marriage is a social contract developed uniquely in each culture. Although there are a few examples of polygomist marriages in Western Culture, MOST societies in Western Culture haved based marriage on a paired bond. Not all, but the vast majority. This appears to be a common theme in Western Culture, probably based on the Judeo-Christian origin of Western Culture.

Although I'm not discounting what other cultures have found workable.


Arguably so, but the question becomes this..."how does marriage positively affect our society?" Homosexual marriage has no positive effect for the government, one could also argue straight marriage is becoming less effective as well.

This, IMO, leads us back to your original stance...marriage should be left up to the states. However, the Feds have made their stance on it for over 1,100 different benefits. This makes "our" stance difficult, but if we would stop worrying about what makes people feel good or what is right for the "times" then we the people could decide what is best for our country. What is best? Simple...keep it a constitutional republic, so we can continue to be the strongest and most influential society to ever exist. Stray away from it (like we are doing now) and we will be in the history books as the "strongest and most influential society to ever exist".
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In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks.
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#3217381 - 04/09/13 08:24 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: AT Hiker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64229
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Marriage is a social contract developed uniquely in each culture. Although there are a few examples of polygomist marriages in Western Culture, MOST societies in Western Culture haved based marriage on a paired bond. Not all, but the vast majority. This appears to be a common theme in Western Culture, probably based on the Judeo-Christian origin of Western Culture.

Although I'm not discounting what other cultures have found workable.


Arguably so, but the question becomes this..."how does marriage positively affect our society?"


That is a very important question, yet one that is very difficult to define and assess beyond child-rearing, which is an obvious benefit and one critical to any society. But it really is amazing to see the variety of ways that different societies have defined "marriage," or the societally excepted bond between people, for that purpose.


 Quote:
This, IMO, leads us back to your original stance...marriage should be left up to the states.


I agree that IF the government is going to be involved in the marriage process (and I disagree that it should be at all), I would prefer it to be a State issue rather than a Federal issue. However, making it a State issue raises the problem of marriages recognized in one state may not in other states. Drivers' licenses are issued by individual states but are recognized by all states. What happens when marriage licenses are recognized by one state but not by others? What happens when a married couple crosses a state line into a state that does not recognize their marriage license?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3217597 - 04/09/13 11:55 AM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: BSK]
Crappie Luck Moderator
Non-Typical


Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 59491
Loc: Smith Co.

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It does not matter if the Govt. is involved in Marriage or not. It's the "normality" that seek to destroy.

The govt. is not involved in Boys Scouts of America yet the Homo-mafia has them marked to desecration just like marriage.

That said, there should be no tax deductions or govt. rewards for marriage. Do away with anything that implies a govt. approval of lifestyle or religious belief.

Then see what the reasoning for the gay lobby is.
_________________________
No matter how big your house is, how big your bank account is or how big your car is, you grave will be the same size as everyone else's.

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#3217611 - 04/09/13 12:18 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: Crappie Luck]
Hangnail
12 Point


Registered: 11/30/00
Posts: 7065
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

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I have no problem with two people being LEGALLY a couple. My issue is naming them married. Married has referred to a man and a woman for centuries. Gay couples will never be married in my eyes. I'm tired of the redefining of the English language. Call it anything they want, except marriage.
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#3217698 - 04/09/13 02:20 PM Re: Rush Limbaugh concedes defeat on gay marriage [Re: Hangnail]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64229
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hangnail
I have no problem with two people being LEGALLY a couple. My issue is naming them married. Married has referred to a man and a woman for centuries. Gay couples will never be married in my eyes. I'm tired of the redefining of the English language. Call it anything they want, except marriage.


I tend to agree with your sentiments Hangnail. I have no problem with providing equal rights but calling those legal bonds something other than "marriage." The one big problem with that is we've already tried "separate but equal" before, and it legally doesn't hold water. By definition, the "separate" makes it unequal.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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