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#3203528 - 03/25/13 04:20 PM Re: Booming deer farms provide convenience to hunters [Re: AT Hiker]
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Mud Dauber
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Registered: 07/28/10
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Hunters, Deer Farmers Lock Horns Over Hunting Preserves
http://www.wibc.com/news/story.aspx?ID=1920489
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#3204052 - 03/26/13 06:47 AM Re: Booming deer farms provide convenience to hunters [Re: AT Hiker]
Diehard Hunter
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Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6817
Loc: East Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
What also scares me about these places is the drugs they use on the animals. Many of those drugs remain in the tissues for many months before they are completely metabolized. The person killing and eating that animal is never told about what drugs were used on the animal or when they were used.


90% of the meat we eat has these chemicals in them. Same concern you have is the same concern I have for our entire food supply, even wild game stands a risk of toxins.



Absolutely wrong! Farmers do not use these drugs on a regular basis. They do not need to. I am not talking about antibiotics and steroids. I am talking about anesthetics, hallucinogens, and sedatives that are estremely potent and hazardous to humans. If you want some enlightenment, take a chemical immobilization of animals class. Many of the people in the class are deer farmers. The rest are wildlife biologists. The funny thing is, the wildlife biologists have to worry about what they use and when, because a hunter may kill that animal and eat it. There is no regulation of the cervid farming industry that requires them to wait before exposing someone to those chemicals in the meat. One of the drugs commonly used is 10000 times more potent than morphin (see first article), and has residues in the meat for a month after injection(see first article). Some of these drugs have residue present for a year after injection. Keep in mind too that these are used as mixtures, they are rarely used alone.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1045&context=icwdmccwhcnews

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/Carfentanil.htm#Withdrawal


I dont know what I am wrong about? I was not implying they used the same drugs as deer farmers per say...just that they used drugs and other bioengineering methods. I raise cattle myself and have been involved in the industry for quit some time. We sell grass feed beef when we have buyers, but the majority goes to a backgrounder then to a feed lot...no of which we control what is given to them.

You ask me to take a chemical immobilization class...been there done that in Animal Science, Nutrition and Health, etc...but I can tell you the class was instructed by professors who make a living writing grants for animal research and by no means is/will the class be directed to "harmful side effects" or anything else that would directly expose the industry.

I dont mind you telling me I am wrong on comparing deer farming to modern agriculture, but I can assure you I am not wrong on the fact that "farmers" use drugs and other chemicals in modern agriculture practices, whether it is willing or not.

You would be surprised how much fluphenazine, thorazine, or Ace is used. Maybe not your typical cattle farmer down the road, but feed lots, dairy operations, etc. This applies to more than cattle as well.

So please do not tell me I am "absolutely wrong" when you dont know what is absolutely factual, being a public forum I think it is important the public know all sides. I give you credit that you know a lot about deer farming (I know nothing on that topic) but my post was to inform others that it is not just deer farmers, its the animal husbandry industry in general.


Maybe you need to read your post again! You specifically stated "these" drugs, so yes you were implying they were using the same drugs. As for knowing what is absolutely factual, I do know what it is, I am one of those professors! I not only know a lot about deer farming, I also teach agriculture classes at the collegiate level. I can easily compare both sides. I know exactly what drugs are used in the commercial AG farms, and know their side effects very well. Nothing compares to the drugs used for chemical immobilization, nothing. Furthermore, in the livestock industry, the animals are monitored to some extent, albeit not closely enough, by the USDA. The game farm animals are not monitored at all, and they can be drugged one day, shot the next, then directly to someone's plate. That is what is scary! At least with the livestock industry, there are mandatory waiting periods to give the animal a chance to metabolize all the drugs.
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The recreational value of a game animal is inverse to the artificiality of its origin and the intensiveness of the management system that produced it. Aldo Leopold


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#3204281 - 03/26/13 10:40 AM Re: Booming deer farms provide convenience to hunters [Re: Diehard Hunter]
AT Hiker
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Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 913
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter


Maybe you need to read your post again! You specifically stated "these" drugs, so yes you were implying they were using the same drugs. As for knowing what is absolutely factual, I do know what it is, I am one of those professors! I not only know a lot about deer farming, I also teach agriculture classes at the collegiate level. I can easily compare both sides. I know exactly what drugs are used in the commercial AG farms, and know their side effects very well. Nothing compares to the drugs used for chemical immobilization, nothing. Furthermore, in the livestock industry, the animals are monitored to some extent, albeit not closely enough, by the USDA. The game farm animals are not monitored at all, and they can be drugged one day, shot the next, then directly to someone's plate. That is what is scary! At least with the livestock industry, there are mandatory waiting periods to give the animal a chance to metabolize all the drugs.


Sorry I misrepresented my opinion then. As I corrected myself earlier, I was not intentionally implying they used the same drugs.

Is there any major research being conducted or in the plans to be done on these "deer farms". Or any plans for future regulations? I guess TN has to worries right now, since we cannot farm them.

I would think TX would lead the way in this research, but Im sure the lobbyist for this certain industry would keep their hands tied but maybe not.
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#3204378 - 03/26/13 11:54 AM Re: Booming deer farms provide convenience to hunters [Re: AT Hiker]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19298
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
I guess TN has to worries right now, since we cannot farm them.

I think we have some very serious worries right now in TN regarding deer farming. We have one state legislator in particular who has been pushing to legalize deer farming so he can be among the first to have one. Always best to be among the first on any type scheme, especially if your primary customers would be expected to be other deer farmers.

Another angle of concern is that government and politicians like to grow their size and power. If deer were regulated in TN like livestock, this could cause significant growth of our Dept. of Agriculture, but mainly at whose expense? And who suffers most the consequences of their mistakes and misjudgements?

 Originally Posted By: AT Hiker
I would think TX would lead the way in this research, but Im sure the lobbyist for this certain industry would keep their hands tied but maybe not.

Don't know about what lobbyist represent whom, but I wouldn't put much stock in TX research applying equally to what could happen in TN. TX is an arid climate, TN is humid. The difference in climate alone can result in very different risk factors.

But my primary concerns regarding deer farming has nothing to do with human consumption of the meat. I'm more concerned with how deer farming disparages the future of traditional hunting; I'm more concerned with how deer farming puts native wild deer at risk for disease.

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#3204491 - 03/26/13 01:30 PM Re: Booming deer farms provide convenience to hunters [Re: Wes Parrish]
Monty
6 Point


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 509
Loc: Bedford Co.

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As usual, very, very good points and facts from both you, Wes, and Diehard. Thank you for staying on top of this continuing saga of unwise and dangerous commercialization scheme and keeping the rest of us informed.
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#3204511 - 03/26/13 01:49 PM Re: Booming deer farms provide convenience to hunters [Re: Monty]
Diehard Hunter
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Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6817
Loc: East Tennessee

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AT, I do not know of any research currently being done, but that doesn't mean there isn't any.

We should be concerned in Tennessee now, however, and here is why. While farming white-tailed deer is not legal, many other species can be farmed, or purchased and brought into shooting preserves. For example, one exotic animal breeder I spoke with was using these potent drugs on a regular basis to keep the animals calm during transport from his home base in North Carolina. He was carrying things like wildebeest and eland to shooting preserves. These animals had been special ordered by size for someone to shoot, and they would be shot shortly after arrival at the shooting preserve. My concern is what happens to the meat? Who eats it and gets those drugs in their system? I do not know of any regulation on the consumption of this meat since it is not inspected. I have never heard of a person getting the shot records handed to them with that trophy animal.
_________________________
The recreational value of a game animal is inverse to the artificiality of its origin and the intensiveness of the management system that produced it. Aldo Leopold


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#3205009 - 03/26/13 09:16 PM Re: Booming deer farms provide convenience to hunters [Re: Diehard Hunter]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 913
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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A wildebeest and eland? Really? I can set someone up with an African safari (no plane ticket) for under $2,500 and that includes all food and drink. I bet the cost to have those animals brought here and all the leg work involved prob cost twice as much if not more, granted they dont have to travel to Africa.

I dont know what the right thing to do is, but it appears whatever happens a lot of thought needs to be put into it for sure.
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In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks.
-John Muir




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