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#3170526 - 02/20/13 08:28 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64740
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
Just curious are the deer pretty good size in L as far as weight?


Again, body weights will vary from location to location, and will depend on what the local deer have to eat. Get near agriculture, and body weights will go up. Get waaaay back into the hills and hollers and body weights will go down. The same goes for antler scores.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170567 - 02/20/13 09:10 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1274
Loc: south TN

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Hunting pressure has to be a big deal in seeing that many deer as well. During August and september you see 15-20 deer out in the fields around my place, and all through bow season is high deer sightings. But after Thanksgiving we just do not see anything. Maybe a doe and her two fawns every other or three hunts.
Once people start shooting they get smart and turn nocturnal. Bucks and does.

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#3170639 - 02/20/13 10:27 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64740
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
Hunting pressure has to be a big deal in seeing that many deer as well. During August and september you see 15-20 deer out in the fields around my place, and all through bow season is high deer sightings. But after Thanksgiving we just do not see anything. Maybe a doe and her two fawns every other or three hunts.
Once people start shooting they get smart and turn nocturnal. Bucks and does.


Excellent point woodsman87.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170692 - 02/20/13 11:22 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25410
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
Just curious are the deer pretty good size in L as far as weight? If anyone needs a doe taken out this coming season shoot me a PM lol. Farthest west i have been in Tennessee is Nashville sounds like some good hunting out there though.
Plenty of public hunting full of deer,should be no problem to kill a doe
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#3171344 - 02/20/13 09:18 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
MRUTVOL
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 882
Loc: Goodlettsville,Tennessee,USA

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[quote=BSK
And by the way, the TWRA has counted them! In a round about sort of way. They ran thermal imager counts all over the state a couple of years ago and got very accurate density numbers that worked out for several years in a row. I would say my estimates (based on their data and my camera census data) is pretty close to "average" for those areas. [/quote]

Unless they did it from the sky I would say they are just guessing again on numbers,IMO. The farms I hunt are not accessible from a main road. Either way I agree with you it varys greatly from one area to another.

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#3171571 - 02/21/13 06:34 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: MRUTVOL]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point


Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6609
Loc: Nashville

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Did we count the deer on your farm...probably not. Did we count deer in the county your farm is in? Absolutely yes. Keep in mind we didn'T&E count every single deer out there, we counted a sub sample to get an estimate in deer densities.
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If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.

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#3171724 - 02/21/13 09:07 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WRbowhunter]
jeff034fun
4 Point


Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 411
Loc: lenoir city

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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
 Originally Posted By: landman
Heard they were going to 2 Bucks this year
cool.I hope you mean 2 bucks per day.this one buck a day is for the birds.sometime 2 spikes come in together
lmao

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#3171737 - 02/21/13 09:22 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: MRUTVOL]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64740
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: MRUTVOL
 Originally Posted By: BSK

And by the way, the TWRA has counted them! In a round about sort of way. They ran thermal imager counts all over the state a couple of years ago and got very accurate density numbers that worked out for several years in a row. I would say my estimates (based on their data and my camera census data) is pretty close to "average" for those areas.


Unless they did it from the sky I would say they are just guessing again on numbers,IMO. The farms I hunt are not accessible from a main road. Either way I agree with you it varys greatly from one area to another.


MRUTVOLS,

As BGG said, they sampled the population through a very detailed process called "distance sampling." Before you downplay any numbers generated from anything less than a full count (which is impossible), you really need to look at the description of the process on the TWRA's website. It is a fascinating method of estimating deer density from a thermal imaging sample, and to date, THE best density estimations of any state in the nation.


As I was mentioning to woodsman87 in another thread, too often hunters get confused by overly simplistic logic, when the real answer is far more complicated. This is especially the case when trying to interpret the value of "deer density" numbers. Hunters will look at deer density numbers and then start trying to calculate how many deer they have on their property. But it doesn't work out because deer density numbers are just averages over a broad area, and deer have such large annual ranges and tend to move around so much daily and seasonally.

Here's an example I hope gets my point across:

Imagine a 9 square mile area broken into perfect square miles--three across and three down (like a tic-tac-toe grid). Now imagine you own the center square mile of this grid. That means you have 8 neighboring square mile parcels (one to the north, one catty-corner to the northeast, one to the east, the southeast, the south, the southwest, the west, and the northwest). Now lets say that the real deer density is 30 deer per square mile. If it were possible to take a satellite image of the area, where each deer glowed bright red and could easily be seen and counted, there would be 270 deer in that 9 square mile area (9 square miles times 30 deer per square mile). However, what you would find with this satellite image is that the deer are not evenly spread across the 9 square miles; i.e. not every grid-square would have 30 deer in it. Some might have only 10 while others might have 50. And because deer have such large ranges, if you took another satellite image a few days later, the numbers would be different in each square (although the total would be the same). Deer that were in your grid-square (on your property) one day, might be on one of the surrounding square miles squares another day. To confuse matters more, deer also often display seasonal range shifts. They may be staying in one area during the summer, yet move to another area in fall (usually to follow changing food sources, but also due to seasonal behavior, such as bachelor group formation in summer and the break-up of those groups in fall).

What this means to you owning the center square mile of this 9-square mile area is that the total number and identity of individual deer you have on your property on a given day or between seasons of the year can be very different.

Although this doesn't sound all that important, this plays a critical role in the difference between how many deer hunters see on a given propery in comparison to the real deer density (which often sounds far too low). Let's say you ran a photo census (or any type of census, and what deer hunters see over any time period is a type of "sample census"). Because you have a square mile of land, and because the deer density is 30 deer per square mile, a census should find 30 deer on your property, right? Wrong. A census run over time (and all current census methods collect data over time, whether it is just a few weeks or months) will catch "your" 30 deer in your square mile. But because deer move around so much daily and seasonally, you will census at least half of all of the deer from every surrounding square mile, as they regularly move back and forth across the artificial square mile boundaries. And again, half is probably a minimum. It could be much more. With 8 surrounding square miles, each with 30 deer in them, and half of the deer in each surrounding square miles eventually wandering onto your property and being counted in the census, that's 120 deer from surround square miles that get picked up in your census (15 [half] of the 30 deer in 8 surrounding square miles [8 x 15 = 120]). And that's in addition to the "your" square mile property's 30 deer, for a total of 150 deer counted in your census. And once again, picking up half of the deer from surround square miles is a minimum. It could easily be in excess of 75% of the deer on each surrounding square mile.

But this is why "how many deer hunters see" as well as "how many deer are photographed in a photo census" is be no means an accurate assessment of deer density. From a real deer density of 30 deer per square mile, hunters on a single square mile of land will have the opportunity to see and harvest at least 150 different deer. That's FIVE TIMES more than the density numbers suggest should be there.

And this huge difference between what can be seen versus the actual deer density gets exaggerated the smaller the size of the hunting property. Instead of owning the entire central square mile (640 acres) of the 9-square mile area, let's assume you only own 160 acres (one-quarter square mile) near the center of the 9-square miles. Because you only have 1/4 of a square mile, you should only have 1/4 the number of deer to hunt than if you owned a full square mile to hunt, right? Nope. Because deer have such large home ranges, if you censused just the central 1/4 of a full square mile area, you will still pick up the majority of the same deer you would get if you censused the entire square mile. So if you owned only 160 acres (1/4 square mile) and you made the assumption you should only find 1/4 of the deer that the deer density per square mile says is there, you would be assuming you have 7-8 deer on the property (30 / 4 = 7.5 deer). Yet in reality, you would probably pick up at least 75% of the deer in that 160 acres that you would have gotten if you owned and censused the full square mile (150), which means you would probably pick up at least 113 deer (150 * 75% = 112.5). So now you can see why smaller property size (below a square mile) greatly exaggerates the difference between what you can see as a hunter (or pick up on a census) versus the real density. With 160 acres, you assumed you had 7 or 8 deer to see/hunt. Yet in reality you have at least 112-113 deer to see/hunt. That's 15 TIMES more deer than the deer density suggests should be there.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3171766 - 02/21/13 09:44 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9612
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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Brian,

That post should be pinned at the top of this forum.

GREAT explanation!

sn
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#3171776 - 02/21/13 09:49 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2465
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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Fixed it \:D

Bryan,

That post should be pinned at the top of this forum.

GREAT explanation!

sn
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-Ronald Firbank

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