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#3169730 - 02/19/13 01:40 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: BSK
...Adult sex ratio: an extremely poor adult sex ratio (few males and many females) will produce a "trickle rut" in that it takes two or three estrus cycles for the few bucks to breed all of the does (although this situation is somewhat rare).


Do we see this in Tennessee much? Possibly in certain counties or certain pockets of counties?


Two things are necessary to actually have a highly skewed sex ratio. The first is extremely high mortality of bucks (primarily from hunting). I'll bet there are numerous locations in TN that fit that bill.

The second thing you have to have to produce a highly skewed adult sex ratio is terrible fawn production/survival. In essence, very few button bucks being produced to replace all the killed adult bucks. THAT is probably quite rare in most of TN.

I'll bet there are VERY few locations in TN that have a pre-hunt adult sex ratio of worse than 2.0 to 2.2 does per buck, and in most areas it is considerably better (1.5 to 1.9 adult does per buck). Again, that's "pre-hunt" (before hunting season opens). Now post-hunt? THAT could be very poor in areas with high buck harvests and low doe harvests. However, recruitment of male fawns into the adult male population in summer rebalances the sex ratio each year.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3169734 - 02/19/13 01:41 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: AlabamaSwamper
BSK,

Don't you know the first full moon when rifle opens is what triggers it?


What was I thinking... ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3169742 - 02/19/13 01:52 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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Awesome. Thanks, Bryan. Always value the education.
-John
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

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#3169844 - 02/19/13 03:49 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
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Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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OK let's take a potential scenario. We'll say that there's a sizable property with a pre-hunt adult sex ratio that is adequate. During hunting season a big percentae of the bucks are killed and not many does and this happens for several seasons in a row. Buck fawn recruitment is going to rebalance that sex ratio each summer? I'm not sure of what wording to use other than some form of genetic coding but BSK, are you saying that Mother Nature knows of this discrepancy and therefore does are going to drop more buck fawns outside of the normal % of sightly higher buck fawns born to doe fawns than normally happens, and that it's going to happen every year? How would the does becoming bred during the hunting season become pregnancy "imprinted" knowing that post-hunt buck population is going to be depleted and to produce a higher percentage of buck fawns for summer recruitment? Is there a magic number representing what percentage of the buck population that can be removed before does can't adequately re-populate that resource?

Edited by Mike Belt (02/19/13 03:55 PM)
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#3169890 - 02/19/13 04:36 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
OK let's take a potential scenario. We'll say that there's a sizable property with a pre-hunt adult sex ratio that is adequate. During hunting season a big percentae of the bucks are killed and not many does and this happens for several seasons in a row. Buck fawn recruitment is going to rebalance that sex ratio each summer?


Yes, simply by shear number. Each year, the fawn crop is the largest single age-class of all deer. And approximately half (or a little more than half) of that huge age-class is male. In summer, they turn one year old and become adult bucks at the same time that the next huge crop of fawns (next years adult bucks) are being born. It sounds crazy, but I can show you the math that even if every living adult buck is killed every year, and not a single doe is ever killed, the button buck crop turning a year old and joining the adult population will never allow the pre-hunt sex ratio to ever be worse than about 3 adult does per adult buck. And in the "real-world" it's far more balanced than that. However, the key to this situation is large fawn crops. If fawn production or survival fawns dramatically, there is no large button buck crop to turn one year old and join the adult population, and in that scenario, pre-hunt adult sex ratios can become skewed (if a huge difference in mortality exists between adult males and females).

Here's an ultra-simplified version of the math:

Since healthy adult does produce a fawn recruitment of between 80-120% (for every 100 does, 80-120 surviving fawns are produced). Let's say at the end of a hunting season we have 100 adult does, their 100 surviving fawns, and zero adult bucks. And for simplicity's sake, let's say half the fawns are male and half female (50 female fawns and 50 male fawns [button bucks]). Now, at the beginning of the next hunting season, the 50 button bucks have passed their first birthdays andare now 50 yearling bucks [adult bucks]). The 100 adult does from the previous year, plus the 50 female fawns which have now reached adulthood [have passed their first birthdays and are now adult deer]), add up to 150 adult does. So you have 150 adult females and 50 adult males. That's a pre-hunt adult sex ratio of 3 does per buck. And again, that's taking things to the absolute extremes, where no bucks survive hunting season and all does survive hunting season.

You can carry out that simple math of all bucks die and no does die year after year, and the pre-hunt sex ratio stays around 3 does per buck. The growing size of the adult doe population keeps producing even larger fawn crops (half of which are male) that keep replacing the adult buck population each year after those male fawns turn one year old in summer and become adult bucks. of course, in this scenario, the buck age structure is terrible. The adult buck population each year is 100% yearling bucks.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170609 - 02/20/13 10:02 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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BSK makes everything make sense. I think I have made my mind to alter my management tactics significantly by not trying to take out a bunch of does.
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#3170662 - 02/20/13 10:48 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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woodsman87,

What I try to do is show hunters how overly-simplistic logic simply doesn't cut it when it comes to deer populations and dynamics. As with any complicated process, the "Devil is in the details." Now explaining how the complexities are driving the process in easy to understand terms gets a little hairy!

But my point is, too often hunters look at any situation through the lens of overly-simplistic logic, and then understandably jump to incorrect assumptions. Again, that is understandable. But the real answer is often highly counterintuitive, and hunters need to understand that. The whole "low buck limit" thing (comparison between KY and TN) is a perfect example.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170729 - 02/20/13 11:53 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.
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#3170775 - 02/20/13 12:26 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.


Standards too high? I doubt it. But, what are your standards? And, roughly where are you hunting? I've gone a long time in between buck kills myself, but got the monkey off of my back this past season.
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

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#3170782 - 02/20/13 12:33 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.


Standards too high? I doubt it. But, what are your standards? And, roughly where are you hunting? I've gone a long time in between buck kills myself, but got the monkey off of my back this past season.


It is hard to explain my standards. I would say a 100"-110" 8 point, or any other buck that looks older 3.5 or older. I just don't see them anymore.
I hunt in southern giles county, north Alabama (very little), and northeastern Lincoln county.

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