#3168477 - 02/18/13 10:51 AM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: scn]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59555
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I process my own deer. And a lot of people i know do as well. How are they factored into the average? They aren't needed to get a valid sample.
climb_higher,
I think a lot of hunters question how valid numbers can be derived from small samples of the whole (how valid information can be obtained without examining every deer harvested). However, "sampling statistics" are an amazingly powerful tool, and proven accurate time and again, as long as the "mathematical rules" of statistical sampling are followed correctly.
For a decade, I worked for the U.S. Census Bureau, the world leader in sampling statistics. Every single "stat" you see on TV about the U.S. population or economy is produced by the U.S. Census Bureau (even those released by other agencies--all federal statistical data collection and analysis is contracted to the Census Bureau). While working for the Census Bureau, I worked with some of the sampling technique scientists, and when testing sampling designs, they would sample a small percentage of a given location with their new technique, and then go back and run a full 100% census of the same area to test the accuracy of the small sample. I can promise you the average person would NEVER believe just how accurate these insanely tiny samples can be IF the mathematical rules were followed correctly. And the way sampling works is that the larger the "population" of whatever it is that you want to know about, the smaller the "percentage" of that population that needs to be measured to get accurate numbers. That means that for a population the size of the entire U.S. population (over 300 million), only percentages as low as 0.00001 percent of people need to be sampled to get accurate numbers. For learning about all of the bucks harvested in TN each year (around 80,000), only a tiny percentage (a couple of percent) need to be sampled to get accurate information, and the TWRA's sample size easily exceeds that.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#3168486 - 02/18/13 10:59 AM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: jar]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59555
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Knowing how to hunt a mature deer or not, who wouldnt want more mature deer around. Oh yeah maybe the guys who just want to get bloody and say i shot a buck.
I really do understand what you are saying, and where your frustration comes from. But I believe a couple of points need to be made.
Too often I see those who prefer to hunt only mature bucks make the incorrect assumption that those hunters who do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks are ALL "brown it's down" hunters. That would be a huge mistake. Many hunters-managers exist that do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks, but do a very good job of protecting the youngest age-classes of buck, and do a great job of managing their local buck age structure. A hunter does not need to manage only for mature bucks to produce a local buck age structure that contains mature bucks. As long as a hunter or group of hunters' harvest decisions allow some bucks to mature, it doesn't matter what bucks are being harvested. Too many hunters are acquiring an incorrect view of how mature bucks are produced through management. Several valid techniques exist beyond just limiting the harvest of bucks to only mature bucks.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#3168496 - 02/18/13 11:11 AM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: BSK]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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I really do understand the frustrations of many hunters that currently hunt in the most difficult to manage situations. We hunters that hunt in the easy to manage situations don't realize how lucky we are.
Although limiting the age of bucks killed (protecting young bucks) is the fastest way to produce mature bucks in any deer population, simply killing less total bucks each year than are produced through reproduction (number of button bucks produced) WILL advance the buck age structure and produce mature bucks.
This is easily acheived in some parts of the state, especially those areas with large land-ownership patterns, lower hunter densities (lots of big clubs and leases), and a moderate to high deer density (most often found in parts of Unit L). In these situations, far more bucks exist than hunters, and even if hunters aren't that selective about what age bucks they kill, the total buck harvest is less than the number of new bucks produced each year, and the buck age structure gets older over time.
And then you have sections of Unit B, with low deer densities (few bucks) and lots of hunters. THAT is an extraordinarily difficult situation to manage to the point of producing mature bucks. If there are more hunters in the woods than bucks in the woods, even a 1 buck limit isn't going to help. Every hunter killing their 1 buck still decimates the buck population every year.
So the TWRA is between a rock and hard place. They have pockets of the state that are currently in exceptional shape and where imposing restrictive limits would actually be detrimental. And then they have pockets of the state were no realistic limit could be set that will produce what some hunters want (harveatable numbers of mature bucks). So what are they to do? I wish I had the answer...
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#3168529 - 02/18/13 11:42 AM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: BSK]
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Vermin93
8 Point
Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 2217
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN
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So the TWRA is between a rock and hard place. They have pockets of the state that are currently in exceptional shape and where imposing restrictive limits would actually be detrimental. And then they have pockets of the state were no realistic limit could be set that will produce what some hunters want (harveatable numbers of mature bucks). So what are they to do? I wish I had the answer...
What about regional buck limits just like we have regional doe limits? Would that help?
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#3168571 - 02/18/13 12:32 PM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: BSK]
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WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point
Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 10880
Loc: Benton Co.
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Knowing how to hunt a mature deer or not, who wouldnt want more mature deer around. Oh yeah maybe the guys who just want to get bloody and say i shot a buck. I really do understand what you are saying, and where your frustration comes from. But I believe a couple of points need to be made. Too often I see those who prefer to hunt only mature bucks make the incorrect assumption that those hunters who do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks are ALL "brown it's down" hunters. That would be a huge mistake. Many hunters-managers exist that do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks, but do a very good job of protecting the youngest age-classes of buck, and do a great job of managing their local buck age structure. A hunter does not need to manage only for mature bucks to produce a local buck age structure that contains mature bucks. As long as a hunter or group of hunters' harvest decisions allow some bucks to mature, it doesn't matter what bucks are being harvested. Too many hunters are acquiring an incorrect view of how mature bucks are produced through management. Several valid techniques exist beyond just limiting the harvest of bucks to only mature bucks.
I know a lot of hunters but know of NONE at all that just want to get bloody and say they got a Buck.
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#3168611 - 02/18/13 01:23 PM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59555
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I know a lot of hunters but know of NONE at all that just want to get bloody and say they got a Buck.
I don't know WestTn Huntin'man. If we ignore the "get bloody" part, I would not be shocked in the least if a survey of all deer hunters in TN found that more than 50% of all deer hunters will gladly shoot the first buck they see. I really do believe the majority of deer hunters want to kill "their" buck for the year.
Honestly, I'm not that far from that myself. Although I teach, promote, and practice QDM, I absolutely want to kill a buck every year. I don't pour the time, money, blood, sweat, and even tears into my hunting land to come away empty handed most of the time. Now that doesn't mean I'm going to shoot a yearling buck just to "get my buck," but I'm also not going to let 100-class 2 1/2 year-olds wander by me repeatedly and then go buckless for the year, at least not for many years in a row!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#3168648 - 02/18/13 01:58 PM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: BSK]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59555
Loc: Nashville, TN
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To add to the above, every hunter has different wants, needs, and desires from their hunting experience. Some want only mature bucks, and they are willing to go years between buck kills to acheive what they want. I say to those hunters, "More power to you, and good luck." I hope they are successful. But also, "Don't ask me to hunt the same way!"
And then there are those hunters at the opposite end of the spectrum who just want to kill a buck each year, any buck. And I say, "More power too you, and good luck." But again, "Don't ask me to hunt the same way!"
Everybody wants something different, and that's OK, as long as one group doesn't try to force their style on everybody else AND it is biologically possible for everybody to manage for the experience they want. Now we all know compromises must be made between neighbors with opposite management strategies, but that's life.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#3168652 - 02/18/13 02:00 PM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: BSK]
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WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point
Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 10880
Loc: Benton Co.
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I don't disagree that a lot of hunters are happy to get a buck irregardless of age or horns.For the 1st 10 or 12 years that I hunted I was happy to see and be able to shoot a deer period buck or doe.During this time Tn had a 11 buck limit and the only places I had to hunt were public lands.I can understand and relate to that feeling.
I strongly object to the enjoying getting bloody part. It is a image that many non hunters have of all hunters.It is part of the hunt .I stand by my statement that I do not know of any hunters that enjoy getting bloody.The statement projects a bad image of hunters in general.It has nothing to do with a 1,2,or 3, buck limit or managing a quality deer population.
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#3168667 - 02/18/13 02:13 PM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
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WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point
Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 10880
Loc: Benton Co.
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Compromise is without a doubt in my mind what is needed for all hunters to be happy. I think TWRA has done a good job at keeping most hunters happy and the herd healthy.The media has done a very good job of encouraging hunters to be obsessed with horn size.
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#3168729 - 02/18/13 03:21 PM
Re: Change In Hunting Reg's?
[Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
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WRbowhunter
8 Point
Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1464
Loc: collierville,tn
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I strongly object to the enjoying getting bloody part. It is a image that many non hunters have of all hunters.It is part of the hunt .I stand by my statement that I do not know of any hunters that enjoy getting bloody.The statement projects a bad image of hunters in general.It has nothing to do with a 1,2,or 3, buck limit or managing a quality deer population.
What are you referring to when you say getting Bloody? Just getting blood on your cloths when gutting a deer or a tradtion after killing your first deer.
_________________________
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians"-Ted Nugent
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