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#3168565 - 02/18/13 12:20 PM Rut Timing
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17684
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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Something that has me baffled is....
If the rut timing is based on the amount of sunlight at a certain time of the year how does a balanced sex ratio herd with a good percentage of the bucks being mature animals advance the rut timing by as much as 2 weeks? That herd dynmamic can't advance or decrease the available sunlight.
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#3168601 - 02/18/13 01:13 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64252
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Something that has me baffled is....
If the rut timing is based on the amount of sunlight at a certain time of the year how does a balanced sex ratio herd with a good percentage of the bucks being mature animals advance the rut timing by as much as 2 weeks? That herd dynmamic can't advance or decrease the available sunlight.


Because, in the Southeast, the length of daylight (actually, the length of the nights) only "primes" females for estrus. It is not the only factor influencing estrus timing. It appears that complex hormonal/pheramonal influences can delay estrus timing. Without the presence of specific hormones/pheramones, estrus can be dealyed beyond the time it should normally occur. And the farther south the deer are, the more it can be delayed.
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#3168629 - 02/18/13 01:43 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
WMAn
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Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 1178
Loc: Williamson County

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And only mature deer emit these pheromones/hormones?
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#3168642 - 02/18/13 01:50 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: WMAn]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: WMAn
And only mature deer emit these pheromones/hormones?


The older a buck is, the more varieties of hormonal and pheramonal chemicals his body produces (and in different ratios).
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#3168643 - 02/18/13 01:52 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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It is surmised that the reason buck age structure plays no role in rut timing in the North is because rut timing there is so critical for offspring survival. In essence, the need for a strictly timed rut is so critical to offspring survival that that timing has become deeply ingrained into the local deer populations genetic code.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3168644 - 02/18/13 01:53 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
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Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25319
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
It is surmised that the reason buck age structure plays no role in rut timing in the North is because rut timing there is so critical for offspring survival. In essence, the need for a strictly timed rut is so critical to offspring survival that that timing has become deeply ingrained into the local deer populations genetic code.
That makes sense to me
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#3169470 - 02/19/13 08:04 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2352
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Because, in the Southeast, the length of daylight (actually, the length of the nights) only "primes" females for estrus. It is not the only factor influencing estrus timing. It appears that complex hormonal/pheramonal influences can delay estrus timing. Without the presence of specific hormones/pheramones, estrus can be dealyed beyond the time it should normally occur. And the farther south the deer are, the more it can be delayed.



...and...

 Originally Posted By: BSK
It is surmised that the reason buck age structure plays no role in rut timing in the North is because rut timing there is so critical for offspring survival. In essence, the need for a strictly timed rut is so critical to offspring survival that that timing has become deeply ingrained into the local deer populations genetic code.


Man, this is just fascinating. So contrary to what a lot of the more popular hunting propoganda would have us believe. Not that I buy into their crap today, but certainly during my younger years when I was less educated and didn't have as many resources available I believed all sorts of things about the moon, and other garbage.
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#3169529 - 02/19/13 09:03 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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BlountArrow,

Moon cycles play absolutely NO role in rut timing (although they do have an influence on daylight deer activity, but a weak influence at best).

Some of the things that are known to influence rut timing are:

Doe health: unhealthy does will display delayed estrus.

Adult sex ratio: an extremely poor adult sex ratio (few males and many females) will produce a "trickle rut" in that it takes two or three estrus cycles for the few bucks to breed all of the does (although this situation is somewhat rare).

Buck age structure: primarily in the Deep South, a very young buck age structure can delay the rut considerably. I couple of very good studies from the Deep South showed delayed ruts of up to a month later than they should have been. However, moving north, this effect starts to disappear. In the Midsouth (including TN), it appears poor buck age structure only delays estrus by about 7-10 days. North of the Ohio River, no delay has been observed due to poor buck age structure.

Regional climate and conditions: each location in the whitetail's full range will have a period when fawn survival will be highest. Natural Selection drives breeding timing to produce fawning at that "peak fawn survival" time of year, whenever that occurs. This can produce some very unusual genetically-driven rut timings. For instance, in South Florida, peak fawn survival is during the dry season in the swamps, which occurs January through March. Hence Natural Selection has driven rut timing into July and August so that fawns are born during the winter dry season.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3169555 - 02/19/13 09:35 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2352
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
...Adult sex ratio: an extremely poor adult sex ratio (few males and many females) will produce a "trickle rut" in that it takes two or three estrus cycles for the few bucks to breed all of the does (although this situation is somewhat rare).


Do we see this in Tennessee much? Possibly in certain counties or certain pockets of counties?
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#3169640 - 02/19/13 11:28 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5084
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...

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BSK,

Don't you know the first full moon when rifle opens is what triggers it?
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