Tndeer Logo

Page all of 4 1234>
Topic Options
#3168565 - 02/18/13 12:20 PM Rut Timing
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17892
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

Offline
Something that has me baffled is....
If the rut timing is based on the amount of sunlight at a certain time of the year how does a balanced sex ratio herd with a good percentage of the bucks being mature animals advance the rut timing by as much as 2 weeks? That herd dynmamic can't advance or decrease the available sunlight.
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER

Top
#3168601 - 02/18/13 01:13 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Something that has me baffled is....
If the rut timing is based on the amount of sunlight at a certain time of the year how does a balanced sex ratio herd with a good percentage of the bucks being mature animals advance the rut timing by as much as 2 weeks? That herd dynmamic can't advance or decrease the available sunlight.


Because, in the Southeast, the length of daylight (actually, the length of the nights) only "primes" females for estrus. It is not the only factor influencing estrus timing. It appears that complex hormonal/pheramonal influences can delay estrus timing. Without the presence of specific hormones/pheramones, estrus can be dealyed beyond the time it should normally occur. And the farther south the deer are, the more it can be delayed.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3168629 - 02/18/13 01:43 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
WMAn
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 1207
Loc: Williamson County

Offline
And only mature deer emit these pheromones/hormones?
_________________________
I am a financial planner for couples who are too busy or don't know where to start. http://cumberlandwealthplanners.com/

Top
#3168642 - 02/18/13 01:50 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: WMAn]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: WMAn
And only mature deer emit these pheromones/hormones?


The older a buck is, the more varieties of hormonal and pheramonal chemicals his body produces (and in different ratios).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3168643 - 02/18/13 01:52 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
It is surmised that the reason buck age structure plays no role in rut timing in the North is because rut timing there is so critical for offspring survival. In essence, the need for a strictly timed rut is so critical to offspring survival that that timing has become deeply ingrained into the local deer populations genetic code.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3168644 - 02/18/13 01:53 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25486
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
It is surmised that the reason buck age structure plays no role in rut timing in the North is because rut timing there is so critical for offspring survival. In essence, the need for a strictly timed rut is so critical to offspring survival that that timing has become deeply ingrained into the local deer populations genetic code.
That makes sense to me
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

You wont know,if you dont go!


Top
#3169470 - 02/19/13 08:04 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2594
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Because, in the Southeast, the length of daylight (actually, the length of the nights) only "primes" females for estrus. It is not the only factor influencing estrus timing. It appears that complex hormonal/pheramonal influences can delay estrus timing. Without the presence of specific hormones/pheramones, estrus can be dealyed beyond the time it should normally occur. And the farther south the deer are, the more it can be delayed.



...and...

 Originally Posted By: BSK
It is surmised that the reason buck age structure plays no role in rut timing in the North is because rut timing there is so critical for offspring survival. In essence, the need for a strictly timed rut is so critical to offspring survival that that timing has become deeply ingrained into the local deer populations genetic code.


Man, this is just fascinating. So contrary to what a lot of the more popular hunting propoganda would have us believe. Not that I buy into their crap today, but certainly during my younger years when I was less educated and didn't have as many resources available I believed all sorts of things about the moon, and other garbage.
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3169529 - 02/19/13 09:03 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
BlountArrow,

Moon cycles play absolutely NO role in rut timing (although they do have an influence on daylight deer activity, but a weak influence at best).

Some of the things that are known to influence rut timing are:

Doe health: unhealthy does will display delayed estrus.

Adult sex ratio: an extremely poor adult sex ratio (few males and many females) will produce a "trickle rut" in that it takes two or three estrus cycles for the few bucks to breed all of the does (although this situation is somewhat rare).

Buck age structure: primarily in the Deep South, a very young buck age structure can delay the rut considerably. I couple of very good studies from the Deep South showed delayed ruts of up to a month later than they should have been. However, moving north, this effect starts to disappear. In the Midsouth (including TN), it appears poor buck age structure only delays estrus by about 7-10 days. North of the Ohio River, no delay has been observed due to poor buck age structure.

Regional climate and conditions: each location in the whitetail's full range will have a period when fawn survival will be highest. Natural Selection drives breeding timing to produce fawning at that "peak fawn survival" time of year, whenever that occurs. This can produce some very unusual genetically-driven rut timings. For instance, in South Florida, peak fawn survival is during the dry season in the swamps, which occurs January through March. Hence Natural Selection has driven rut timing into July and August so that fawns are born during the winter dry season.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3169555 - 02/19/13 09:35 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2594
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
...Adult sex ratio: an extremely poor adult sex ratio (few males and many females) will produce a "trickle rut" in that it takes two or three estrus cycles for the few bucks to breed all of the does (although this situation is somewhat rare).


Do we see this in Tennessee much? Possibly in certain counties or certain pockets of counties?
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3169640 - 02/19/13 11:28 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5104
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...

Offline
BSK,

Don't you know the first full moon when rifle opens is what triggers it?
_________________________
Official BTR Scorer in NW Alabama and southern middle Tennessee

http://twitter.com/AlabamaSwamper

Top
#3169730 - 02/19/13 01:40 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: BSK
...Adult sex ratio: an extremely poor adult sex ratio (few males and many females) will produce a "trickle rut" in that it takes two or three estrus cycles for the few bucks to breed all of the does (although this situation is somewhat rare).


Do we see this in Tennessee much? Possibly in certain counties or certain pockets of counties?


Two things are necessary to actually have a highly skewed sex ratio. The first is extremely high mortality of bucks (primarily from hunting). I'll bet there are numerous locations in TN that fit that bill.

The second thing you have to have to produce a highly skewed adult sex ratio is terrible fawn production/survival. In essence, very few button bucks being produced to replace all the killed adult bucks. THAT is probably quite rare in most of TN.

I'll bet there are VERY few locations in TN that have a pre-hunt adult sex ratio of worse than 2.0 to 2.2 does per buck, and in most areas it is considerably better (1.5 to 1.9 adult does per buck). Again, that's "pre-hunt" (before hunting season opens). Now post-hunt? THAT could be very poor in areas with high buck harvests and low doe harvests. However, recruitment of male fawns into the adult male population in summer rebalances the sex ratio each year.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3169734 - 02/19/13 01:41 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: AlabamaSwamper
BSK,

Don't you know the first full moon when rifle opens is what triggers it?


What was I thinking... ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3169742 - 02/19/13 01:52 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2594
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
Awesome. Thanks, Bryan. Always value the education.
-John
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3169844 - 02/19/13 03:49 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17892
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

Offline
OK let's take a potential scenario. We'll say that there's a sizable property with a pre-hunt adult sex ratio that is adequate. During hunting season a big percentae of the bucks are killed and not many does and this happens for several seasons in a row. Buck fawn recruitment is going to rebalance that sex ratio each summer? I'm not sure of what wording to use other than some form of genetic coding but BSK, are you saying that Mother Nature knows of this discrepancy and therefore does are going to drop more buck fawns outside of the normal % of sightly higher buck fawns born to doe fawns than normally happens, and that it's going to happen every year? How would the does becoming bred during the hunting season become pregnancy "imprinted" knowing that post-hunt buck population is going to be depleted and to produce a higher percentage of buck fawns for summer recruitment? Is there a magic number representing what percentage of the buck population that can be removed before does can't adequately re-populate that resource?

Edited by Mike Belt (02/19/13 03:55 PM)
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER

Top
#3169890 - 02/19/13 04:36 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
OK let's take a potential scenario. We'll say that there's a sizable property with a pre-hunt adult sex ratio that is adequate. During hunting season a big percentae of the bucks are killed and not many does and this happens for several seasons in a row. Buck fawn recruitment is going to rebalance that sex ratio each summer?


Yes, simply by shear number. Each year, the fawn crop is the largest single age-class of all deer. And approximately half (or a little more than half) of that huge age-class is male. In summer, they turn one year old and become adult bucks at the same time that the next huge crop of fawns (next years adult bucks) are being born. It sounds crazy, but I can show you the math that even if every living adult buck is killed every year, and not a single doe is ever killed, the button buck crop turning a year old and joining the adult population will never allow the pre-hunt sex ratio to ever be worse than about 3 adult does per adult buck. And in the "real-world" it's far more balanced than that. However, the key to this situation is large fawn crops. If fawn production or survival fawns dramatically, there is no large button buck crop to turn one year old and join the adult population, and in that scenario, pre-hunt adult sex ratios can become skewed (if a huge difference in mortality exists between adult males and females).

Here's an ultra-simplified version of the math:

Since healthy adult does produce a fawn recruitment of between 80-120% (for every 100 does, 80-120 surviving fawns are produced). Let's say at the end of a hunting season we have 100 adult does, their 100 surviving fawns, and zero adult bucks. And for simplicity's sake, let's say half the fawns are male and half female (50 female fawns and 50 male fawns [button bucks]). Now, at the beginning of the next hunting season, the 50 button bucks have passed their first birthdays andare now 50 yearling bucks [adult bucks]). The 100 adult does from the previous year, plus the 50 female fawns which have now reached adulthood [have passed their first birthdays and are now adult deer]), add up to 150 adult does. So you have 150 adult females and 50 adult males. That's a pre-hunt adult sex ratio of 3 does per buck. And again, that's taking things to the absolute extremes, where no bucks survive hunting season and all does survive hunting season.

You can carry out that simple math of all bucks die and no does die year after year, and the pre-hunt sex ratio stays around 3 does per buck. The growing size of the adult doe population keeps producing even larger fawn crops (half of which are male) that keep replacing the adult buck population each year after those male fawns turn one year old in summer and become adult bucks. of course, in this scenario, the buck age structure is terrible. The adult buck population each year is 100% yearling bucks.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3170609 - 02/20/13 10:02 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1308
Loc: south TN

Offline
BSK makes everything make sense. I think I have made my mind to alter my management tactics significantly by not trying to take out a bunch of does.
Top
#3170662 - 02/20/13 10:48 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
woodsman87,

What I try to do is show hunters how overly-simplistic logic simply doesn't cut it when it comes to deer populations and dynamics. As with any complicated process, the "Devil is in the details." Now explaining how the complexities are driving the process in easy to understand terms gets a little hairy!

But my point is, too often hunters look at any situation through the lens of overly-simplistic logic, and then understandably jump to incorrect assumptions. Again, that is understandable. But the real answer is often highly counterintuitive, and hunters need to understand that. The whole "low buck limit" thing (comparison between KY and TN) is a perfect example.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3170729 - 02/20/13 11:53 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1308
Loc: south TN

Offline
I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.
Top
#3170775 - 02/20/13 12:26 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2594
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.


Standards too high? I doubt it. But, what are your standards? And, roughly where are you hunting? I've gone a long time in between buck kills myself, but got the monkey off of my back this past season.
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3170782 - 02/20/13 12:33 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BlountArrow]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1308
Loc: south TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.


Standards too high? I doubt it. But, what are your standards? And, roughly where are you hunting? I've gone a long time in between buck kills myself, but got the monkey off of my back this past season.


It is hard to explain my standards. I would say a 100"-110" 8 point, or any other buck that looks older 3.5 or older. I just don't see them anymore.
I hunt in southern giles county, north Alabama (very little), and northeastern Lincoln county.

Top
#3170796 - 02/20/13 12:50 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17892
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

Offline
You can definately set your standards too high but it all depends on where you're hunting and the realistic possibilities of that area. If the potential for killing what you're after exists go for it and hold out for what you want. The less that realistic opportunity exists the longer you may can expect to go buckless even to the point of never killing a buck. That's just something that's individual to each hunter and each has to weigh his/her own standards of satisfaction from the hunt by doing so.

I'd be willing to bet that here in Tn most hunters that take the plunge into a more "trophicized" style of hunting end up disappointed and don't stick to their guns for long. Those that do and are successful are probably glad they did but still may back off their expectations somewhat if they had to go several seasons buckless. To me that's the beauty of our liberal doe limits because Unit L hunters can still fill the freezer while waiting on their buck of choice.
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER

Top
#3170817 - 02/20/13 01:07 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: Mike Belt]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1308
Loc: south TN

Offline
I stated earlier that my standards are a buck 3.5 or older, or just a nice 110" or so 8 pointer. I got to thinking that although killing a 3.5 year old buck is very difficult, seeing a decent 8 like that shouldn't be that hard, but it is. The last one I seen hunting was the last one I killed, going on 4 Thanksgivings ago. I have either terrible terrible luck, or they all get killed by somebody else before they get to me. roughly 190 acres of private land I hunt. I know it is hard to manage to your likings on land this small, but it is also plenty of land to kill a buck a year off of. And before this dry spell I would kill 2-3 decent 8 pointers a year. So I know that I haven't forgotten how to hunt.
I think it is 100% bad luck.

Another factor, and probably has the most to do with lack of success, is just simply being able to go. Each year I have more and more obligations where I do not get to go very much. I also have a family of my own. Used to Thanksgiving and Christmas meant hunt at the camp for days and just one or two days with your family. Now that I am married Holidays means family the most everyday and just two or three hunts.


Edited by woodsman87 (02/20/13 01:17 PM)

Top
#3170842 - 02/20/13 01:28 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2594
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
I don't think holding out for a 3.5 year old buck or older is setting your standards too high, but it might not be "easy". Generally, it's more work but I think it is way more rewarding. And, like Mike Belt said, the beauty of Unit L is that you don't have to waste an immature buck, just kill a doe. I'm happy to kill does, and let the immature bucks walk in hopes they will be something better next year. It doesn't always happen, but that is how I hunt. I don't get hung up on antler scores. Don't get me wrong, I LOVES the big antlers, but it is not a factor that overrides age for me. I had a nice 7 or 8 pointer, 2-1/2 year old buck, that I could have shot on 2 different occassions that most Unit B hunters would never pass up. Maybe I can find the pic...

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/BlountArrow/IM000139_zps7b49278a.jpg

(not sure why the pic isn't visible without clicking the link)

I think his neck and body looks a little bigger in this pic than he actually is based on other pics I have.


Edited by BlountArrow (02/20/13 01:34 PM)
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

Top
#3170850 - 02/20/13 01:32 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17892
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

Offline
I'm lucky to be able to hunt alot. When I worked I saved most of my vacation time for deer hunting so I usually had at least a solid month of hunting. Now I can hunt every single day of every season...although I don't. If my hunting time was limited I'd hunt the most opportune times at seeing buck movement. You could possibly hunt once and kill your buck but you really up your odds by being there frequently as long as you hunt smart and don't tip them off.
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER

Top
#3170855 - 02/20/13 01:34 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
You can definately set your standards too high but it all depends on where you're hunting and the realistic possibilities of that area.


I completely agree Mike. But I would add one more criterion, and that is "is it fun?" You can have a realistic goal that is achievable on your hunting land, but is achieving it fun? It may not be. In essence, I would add "the hunting experience you desire" alongside "the size buck I want and can realistically expect to kill every so often."


 Quote:
I'd be willing to bet that here in Tn most hunters that take the plunge into a more "trophicized" style of hunting end up disappointed and don't stick to their guns for long. Those that do and are successful are probably glad they did but still may back off their expectations somewhat if they had to go several seasons buckless.


I somewhat fit that second group Mike. I have been successful, and have "trophy" bucks to hunt every year. But doing what is necessary to kill those size/age bucks just isn't fun anymore, hence I've backed way off my goals.


 Quote:
To me that's the beauty of our liberal doe limits because Unit L hunters can still fill the freezer while waiting on their buck of choice.


Not on my place! We can hardly buy a doe! But that is a very site specific problem.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3170862 - 02/20/13 01:38 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.


Standards too high? I doubt it. But, what are your standards? And, roughly where are you hunting? I've gone a long time in between buck kills myself, but got the monkey off of my back this past season.


It is hard to explain my standards. I would say a 100"-110" 8 point, or any other buck that looks older 3.5 or older. I just don't see them anymore.
I hunt in southern giles county, north Alabama (very little), and northeastern Lincoln county.


Just out of curiosity woodsman87, are you running trail-cameras? What I'm wondering is whether you are hunting for animals that no longer exist in your area, or if they exist in harvestable numbers but either they've figured you out or you've just fallen on bad luck for a few years.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#3170877 - 02/20/13 02:02 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1308
Loc: south TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I wish I could be like I was when I was 10-13 years old again. Shot every buck I saw and thought I was the best hunter in the world. Now I catch myself saying I am going to shoot the first buck I see but when I see it I do not shoot. And now for the past three deer seasons I have gone buckless because my standards are too high. I really think I will change next year.


Standards too high? I doubt it. But, what are your standards? And, roughly where are you hunting? I've gone a long time in between buck kills myself, but got the monkey off of my back this past season.


It is hard to explain my standards. I would say a 100"-110" 8 point, or any other buck that looks older 3.5 or older. I just don't see them anymore.
I hunt in southern giles county, north Alabama (very little), and northeastern Lincoln county.


Just out of curiosity woodsman87, are you running trail-cameras? What I'm wondering is whether you are hunting for animals that no longer exist in your area, or if they exist in harvestable numbers but either they've figured you out or you've just fallen on bad luck for a few years.


I do run one trail camera, and my neighbor runs a few (we hunt each others land). On my camera the biggest buck I ever got was actually a doe lol. It was killed a day after the pic was taken, probably a 115" 8 point doe.
I run my camera on a salt lick or a food plot. Food plot in the fall winter and salt during the summer. My friend has his in food plots and salt liks too and does get an occasional nice deer. I know that there are good deer there we just do not see them while hunting. We have also seen nice bucks in the pastures and hayfields on and around our property during August.
I think that I have three main problems with my lack of success.

One of them is not getting to go often, and this year on the weekends when I got to go during the peak of the rut, the two first saturdays and sundays in December it was nearly 70 degrees with a full moon. Now during the middle of the week while I was working it was highs in the mid 50s and lows in the mid 20s.

The second problem I have is luck. Like I just said, my luck this year from bow season until after Christmas was weather. During the middle of the week it was cold, and weekends way above normal. Also every hunter has to have a certain amount of luck to kill any deer, and I just haven't had it recently.

The third problem, although it doesn't make much sense to me is hunting pressure. I do not get to go often, but is almost as if when I do get to go I am still ruining myself. For me, having limited time to hunt and limted stand options, if the wind is wrong its either go hunt and take a chance or don't go at all. I have never not gone deer hunting because weather or wind wasn't right. I know very well by hunting stands the wrong way can ruin you, but I would rather go hunting when I can and take a chance on luck then stay at home. If I hunted stritcly like the pros and experts and only hunted in perfect conditions I may not get to go the entire season.

This is why I said earlier I miss my 10-13 year old days when I went hunting no matter what, shot what I wanted to, and was always happy about it.

sorry for the long read, I am passionate about deer hunting and hope I can finally know what it feels like to kill a buck again.

Top
#3171053 - 02/20/13 05:31 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17892
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

Offline
2 things...
1)Maybe you need to go back to your 10-13 year old days until you can pick up more hunting time and
2)If I were you and/or your neighbor I'd move those cameras to scrapes during the Fall instead of having them on foodplots and salt licks. The deer don't use the licks during the Fall and you'd both probably stand a better chance of getting pics of some of your potential bucks.
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER

Top
#3171244 - 02/20/13 08:10 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: Mike Belt]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1308
Loc: south TN

Offline
I always have the intentions to move them to scrapes during November, but as little as I get to hunt I spend my time in the woods hunting and not moving cameras. It could be pure laziness too haha. But I really never get around to it like I should.
Top
#3171835 - 02/21/13 10:39 AM Re: Rut Timing [Re: woodsman87]
BigAl
16 Point


Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 19093
Loc: Fayette County, TN US

Offline
So we know that climate change, or whatever you want to call it has affected the range shift for some plants and animals. Could the warmer temps affect the timing of the rut as well?

Edited by BigAl (02/21/13 10:39 AM)
_________________________
Walls: Leading the way outdoors.

Top
#3172070 - 02/21/13 02:40 PM Re: Rut Timing [Re: BigAl]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BigAl
So we know that climate change, or whatever you want to call it has affected the range shift for some plants and animals. Could the warmer temps affect the timing of the rut as well?


Doubtful, unless over time, the "best dates for fawn survival" shift, AND the difference in fawn survival between the old dates and the new dates is significant. Natural Selection only works as fast as the intensity of the selective pressure. If the selective pressure is intense, Natural Selection can work very quickly. If the selective pressure is low, it will take many generations to see a shift.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
Page all of 4 1234>


Moderator:  RUGER, Tennessee Todd, Unicam, Cuttin Caller, CBU93, stretch, Bobby G, TurkeyBurd, Kimber45, Mrs.Unicam, Crappie Luck 
Hop to:
Top Posters
4105568
RUGER
87068
Deer Assassin
65411
BSK
61051
Crappie Luck
51376
spitndrum
Newest Members
zatoan, DanParchman3, saddleman1, Jculber301, Mik475
13282 Registered Users
Who's Online
39 registered (trevor2010, shaneb, lungpuncher1, Cottontop, devo1980, NoNtYpiCaL1, 5 invisible) and 63 anonymous users online.
Forum Stats
13282 Members
42 Forums
93433 Topics
1090861 Posts

Max Online: 788 @ 11/11/13 08:06 PM
Moon Phase
CURRENT MOON
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Forum Donations
The TnDeer.Com Deer Talk Forum is for Tennessee Deer Hunters by Tennessee Deer Hunters. If you enjoy using our Talk Forum and would like to contribute to help in it's up-keep. Just submit your contribution by clicking on the DONATE button below and paying with PayPal or a major credit card. Any amount is much appreciated. Thanks for your support!

TN Burn Safe

Generated in 0.149 seconds in which 0.001 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.