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#3166239 - 02/16/13 01:34 PM Some Ames Stats...
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 18623
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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Harvest Records For 2012

Does:

Age/ Average Weight/ # Killed
-1.5/ 41.7/ 20
1.5/ 69.2/ 29
2.5/ 80.5/ 25
3.5/ 87.6/ 38
4.5/ 92.0/ 21
5.5/ 85.7/ 10

Bucks:

Age/ Average Weight/ # Killed/ Average Score
-1.5/ 49.2/ 26/
1.5/ 86.6/ 3/ Spikes
2.5/ 130.3/ 3/ 116.7
3.5/ 142.4/ 14/ 127.1
4.5/ 147.6/ 8/ 134.7
5.5/ 149.6/ 3/ 134.9

Observation Data:

Hours Hunted 9964
Shooter Sightings 159 (B&C score of 125 or 4.5+ years)
Other Bucks 2528
Does 4293
Fawns 1234
Unknowns 846
Total Deer 9060
Deer/Hour .91
Bucks/Hour .28
Does/Hour .43
Buck:Doe 1:1.6

The 3 interesting things that jump out at me are:
1)Our 4.5 year old does weighed on average 6.3 pounds more than our 5.5 year old does
2)On average the score on our 5.5 year old bucks only averaged .1 more than our 4.5 year old bucks and only 1 pound heavier
3)We killed too many button bucks. 46% of our buck kill were button bucks




Edited by Mike Belt (02/16/13 01:53 PM)
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#3166289 - 02/16/13 02:34 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
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Fascinating stats Mike. Thanks for posting them.

I'm guessing the listed average weights are field-dressed weights?
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#3166325 - 02/16/13 03:11 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BSK]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
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Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
I'm guessing the listed average weights are field-dressed weights?
Yes. We rarely have a hunter that is gung-ho enough to bring a deer in whole. With that said, Ames biologists and staff have encouraged us to do so, mainly so we could start obtaining localized data of weight on hoof versus field dressed weight.
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Andy S.

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#3166326 - 02/16/13 03:15 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
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Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
We killed too many button bucks. 46% of our buck kill were button bucks.
Yes indeed. I hope Ames' biologists revisit the subtle differences at the supper this fall so the membership as a whole can brush up on deciphering buttons versus yearling does, especially during late season.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3166338 - 02/16/13 03:22 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
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wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.
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#3166346 - 02/16/13 03:35 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: redblood]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: redblood
wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.
Our goal/threshold on buttons is 10% of doe harvest or less. For example, we typically shoot 160-180 does a season, so killing 16-18 button bucks is deemed acceptable if you will. This year we killed 27 buttons. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain we killed 3 spikes, all mistaken for does, thus we killed 30 male deer that were yearlings or buttons. The reason this kill makes up 47% of the overall buck kill is because we typically only kill 25 or so shooters total all season (>125" gross or 4.5 yrs old) and maybe 3-5 bucks that were mistaken for shooters but came up short. So in a nutshell, our "shooter" buck harvest is around 25 bucks or so each fall, 5 bucks by mistake, and this year we had 27 buttons killed as well, thus resulting in 46% of the buck harvest. I do not have all of the data in front of me, so I could be off by a few here and there, but this is pretty close as far as the big picture goes. Hope this helps.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3166361 - 02/16/13 03:59 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 03/26/99
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Andy...I heard rumors that there may have to be some type of penalty for buttons or at least the repeated event by the same hunter. I killed a button last year or the year before so I know it happens but I'd say it's 90% hunter error. That other 10% is our 10% margin which is acceptable. Maybe there needs to be a penalty if a group of hunters under a management scenario and have been for years can't do any better than 46% of the total harvest being button bucks. I think that for the same reason that the bucks under our minimum are killed we're killing so many buttons...some people feel like they just have to kill something and shoot first and then ground check. Without having a monetary penalty we might could count a button as one of our legal bucks. Maybe that'd slow it down some.

By the way, how's that baby girl doing?


Edited by Mike Belt (02/16/13 04:00 PM)
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#3166390 - 02/16/13 04:24 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 15381
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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
 Originally Posted By: redblood
wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.
Our goal/threshold on buttons is 10% of doe harvest or less. For example, we typically shoot 160-180 does a season, so killing 16-18 button bucks is deemed acceptable if you will. This year we killed 27 buttons. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain we killed 3 spikes, all mistaken for does, thus we killed 30 male deer that were yearlings or buttons. The reason this kill makes up 47% of the overall buck kill is because we typically only kill 25 or so shooters total all season (>125" gross or 4.5 yrs old) and maybe 3-5 bucks that were mistaken for shooters but came up short. So in a nutshell, our "shooter" buck harvest is around 25 bucks or so each fall, 5 bucks by mistake, and this year we had 27 buttons killed as well, thus resulting in 46% of the buck harvest. I do not have all of the data in front of me, so I could be off by a few here and there, but this is pretty close as far as the big picture goes. Hope this helps.





were most killed on the juvy hunts? i wouldnt expect experienced qdm hunters to make that error at such a high frequency
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#3166397 - 02/16/13 04:26 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Andy...I heard rumors that there may have to be some type of penalty for buttons or at least the repeated event by the same hunter.
I'm all for this. Maybe not a significant fee, but at least something to get one's attention.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
I killed a button last year or the year before so I know it happens...
I've goofed before too. It was late season with a rifle few years back and I was hell-bent on killing a doe that afternoon. A big doe walked out of the pines, followed by a "small/medium sized doe" and then two small fawns came out, all at 100 yards or so through the hardwoods. I never could get a clear shot on the big doe, then they started getting antsy and appeared to be leaving, so I shot the "small/medium sized doe" in a hastily manner. That doe turned out to be a button head. I cussed myself 100 times for that, not so much because I killed a button, but because of my lack of focus and oversight that led to my decision to shoot.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
...but I'd say it's 90% hunter error.
I agree 100%.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Without having a monetary penalty we might could count a button as one of our legal bucks. Maybe that'd slow it down some.
I'd go along with this especially if it was a hunter's second button. In essence, I'd give a hunter one goof, but the second one would cost him/her.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
By the way, how's that baby girl doing?
She appears to be doing good. We went to her first pediatrician appointment yesterday and he said she looked great and he had no concerns. We still have to go back to the neurologist and neurosurgeon in a few weeks for a follow up. I'm hoping and praying they give us a good report too. Thanks for asking Mike.
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If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3166405 - 02/16/13 04:33 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: redblood]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: redblood
were most killed on the juvy hunts?
I do not have the harvest data in front of me, but I'd bet not.

 Originally Posted By: redblood
..i wouldnt expect experienced qdm hunters to make that error at such a high frequency
Tell me about it. Like I said, our threshold this year would have been 16 buttons, or 10% of the doe harvest, but we blew that out of the water and shot 27 buttons, in addition to 3 spikes. If I am not mistaken, this is the most buttons we have killed in a single season in a decade. There may have been one other season where we killed this many, but that season may have been one of the few we knocked down 225+ does too, thus making the number of buttons a little more acceptable if you will.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3166498 - 02/16/13 05:55 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 03/26/99
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redblood...For the most part these buttons came from experienced deer hunters that have been under the management program for several years. Maybe their dues ought to be higher than others....
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#3166506 - 02/16/13 06:01 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: redblood]
Football Hunter
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 Originally Posted By: redblood
wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.
Yeah,thats tough,I havent killed one in years,makes me sick when it happens.
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#3166509 - 02/16/13 06:02 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
Football Hunter
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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
redblood...For the most part these buttons came from experienced deer hunters that have been under the management program for several years. Maybe their dues ought to be higher than others....
Id agree with that,thats seems crazy high to me,although Im sure BSK will say it will adversly decrease the doe harvest,but man,it aint that hard.
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#3166595 - 02/16/13 06:55 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER
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good information
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#3166777 - 02/16/13 09:00 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]
fairchaser
8 Point


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Having a penalty for BB would IMO decrease the doe harvest. There are hunters like me that will only eat one doe per season. I kill more if I can find those that want the meat. I like to help out the program too. I have not made the mistake at Ames yet but have before so I know how easy it is. I won't shoot a lone doe unless I can stare at its head with binos at close range. Even then it's tough. If you put a penalty on me, I might only shoot the minimum does required. It's not money as much as the idea of being penalized. Been there and don't like it very much. I think keeping the doe harvest up is more important than one years BB harvest.
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#3166813 - 02/16/13 09:21 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
Bucks & Beards
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Mike
Don't you think it is better to discuss the button buck harvest percentage by comparing it to the total antlerless harvest instead of the total buck harvest? When you compare it to the antlerless harvest the percentage according to Allan was 15%...not acceptable, but understandable when antlerless deer are aggressively targeted.

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#3166815 - 02/16/13 09:22 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: fairchaser]
Bucks & Beards
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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Having a penalty for BB would IMO decrease the doe harvest. There are hunters like me that will only eat one doe per season. I kill more if I can find those that want the meat. I like to help out the program too. I have not made the mistake at Ames yet but have before so I know how easy it is. I won't shoot a lone doe unless I can stare at its head with binos at close range. Even then it's tough. If you put a penalty on me, I might only shoot the minimum does required. It's not money as much as the idea of being penalized. Been there and don't like it very much. I think keeping the doe harvest up is more important than one years BB harvest.

x 2 fairchaser

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#3166821 - 02/16/13 09:28 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Bucks & Beards]
SEC
6 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
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A small deer walking around by itself acting stupid is most likely a button buck. I eat many deer per year 90% being doe's. I have killed one button buck in the last 8 or 10 years.
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#3166830 - 02/16/13 09:43 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: SEC]
Bucks & Beards
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 Originally Posted By: SEC
A small deer walking around by itself acting stupid is most likely a button buck. I eat many deer per year 90% being doe's. I have killed one button buck in the last 8 or 10 years.

SEC
Do you get a cranky letter from the manager of your hunting property in mid-December telling you to hammer the antlerless deer? We usually do at Ames. By then the mature does are really educated and satisfying the antlerless goal for the property is not as easy as it seems. Again, over 10% of the antlerless harvest is unacceptable, but understandable with the unique conditions sometimes at Ames.

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#3166883 - 02/16/13 10:58 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Bucks & Beards]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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In my opinion, repeated button buck harvest in a single year (more than one per fall) by a seasoned QDM hunter is unacceptable and a demonstration of carelessness and hastily made decisions. It happens, just as I outlined earlier about myself, but with our core membership I think we have A LOT of room for improvement. In my way of thinking, if the threshold is 10% of anterless harvest, then we as seasoned QDM hunters/QDM club should beat that number every year, however, we never have to my knowledge. I would like to see a button buck harvest versus date of kill plotted. I may be mistaken, but I have a sneaky suspicion it will show many of the buttons killed later in the year, say after Thanksgiving, when many of the buttons are the size of a small/medium sized doe and running around like they have no care in the world. It seems every year the buttons hit the ground hard in December at Ames. As I oftentimes say, their will be little to no lasting change if their is no consequence for one's action. We need to do better in the future. My .02

Edited by Andy S. (02/16/13 11:00 PM)
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#3167005 - 02/17/13 08:45 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
 Originally Posted By: redblood
wow. 46 percent button buck harvest. how does that happen.
Our goal/threshold on buttons is 10% of doe harvest or less. For example, we typically shoot 160-180 does a season, so killing 16-18 button bucks is deemed acceptable if you will. This year we killed 27 buttons. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain we killed 3 spikes, all mistaken for does, thus we killed 30 male deer that were yearlings or buttons.


Andy S.,

You are correct that sub-legal males as a percent of the total antlerless harvest is the proper measuring device. If the numbers posted by Mike are correct (26 button bucks, 3 spikes, and 143 females in the antlerless harvest, for a total antlerless harvest of 172), the button buck and spike kills make up 17% of the antlerless harvest. That's certainly above what you would want to see, but not disastrously high.
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#3167007 - 02/17/13 08:49 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
if a group of hunters under a management scenario and have been for years can't do any better than 46% of the total harvest being button bucks.


Mike,

The percent of the male harvest that is button bucks is a meaningless number. What if hunters only killed 1 button buck and one antlered buck? One button buck wouldn't be a high button buck kill at all, yet from a total of 2 males killed, button bucks made up 50%. That sounds terrible, but isn't.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3167074 - 02/17/13 09:48 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BSK]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Mike, what is the total acreage of Ames?
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#3167124 - 02/17/13 10:22 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BSK]
redblood
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
if a group of hunters under a management scenario and have been for years can't do any better than 46% of the total harvest being button bucks.


Mike,

The percent of the male harvest that is button bucks is a meaningless number. What if hunters only killed 1 button buck and one antlered buck? One button buck wouldn't be a high button buck kill at all, yet from a total of 2 males killed, button bucks made up 50%. That sounds terrible, but isn't.



maybe not, but if i hunted there (and i dont) i would probably WANT MANAGEMENT to educate hunters of the importance of differentiating between a button buck and a doe. when in doubt....DONT


Edited by redblood (02/17/13 10:23 AM)
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#3167177 - 02/17/13 11:04 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: redblood]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 03/26/99
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BGG---
I think we have about 18,600 acres divided into 5 units (1-5) This year we seemed to distribute the doe and antlerless kill much better than in year's past.
Unit 1..2558 acres..24 deer killed..17% of total harvest
Unit 2..2650 acres..29 deer killed..20% of total harvest
Unit 3..5108 acres..32 deer killed..22% of total harvest
Unit 4..5521 acres..39 deer killed..27% of total harvest
Unit 5..2709 acres..19 deer killed..13% of total harvest

In the past most of our doe kills were represented from areas 3, 4, and 5 which are the only areas we have any agricultural crops. Hunting is somewhat easier in these areas with more access. Areas 1 and 2 have no agriculture and much of the land is cutover regrowth or some stage of pine plantings rendering extremely hard hunting. There is also less access to these 2 areas although some ATV access was made more available this past season which helped to balance our doe kill per area.



BSK---
I see your point. The button buck/antlerless kill should be represented as 15-17% of the kill. Still way too high (IMO) for an experienced QDM club.
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#3167192 - 02/17/13 11:17 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 03/26/99
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The idea that any penalty for killing excessive button bucks may decrease the overall doe kill numbers is valid...to a point. I could understand that concept on public land or anywhere that John Q. was hunting. For a QDM oriented club, and particularly for one that has maintained it's core membership for several years, I would like to think that those hunters were at a different level. I'm not saying that they may be better hunters than John Q. but their mindset when afield should be a little different. Just my opinion...
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#3167193 - 02/17/13 11:17 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10449
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Andy...I heard rumors that there may have to be some type of penalty for buttons or at least the repeated event by the same hunter.
I'm all for this. Maybe not a significant fee, but at least something to get one's attention.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
I killed a button last year or the year before so I know it happens...
I've goofed before too. It was late season with a rifle few years back and I was hell-bent on killing a doe that afternoon. A big doe walked out of the pines, followed by a "small/medium sized doe" and then two small fawns came out, all at 100 yards or so through the hardwoods. I never could get a clear shot on the big doe, then they started getting antsy and appeared to be leaving, so I shot the "small/medium sized doe" in a hastily manner. That doe turned out to be a button head. I cussed myself 100 times for that, not so much because I killed a button, but because of my lack of focus and oversight that led to my decision to shoot.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
...but I'd say it's 90% hunter error.
I agree 100%.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Without having a monetary penalty we might could count a button as one of our legal bucks. Maybe that'd slow it down some.
I'd go along with this especially if it was a hunter's second button. In essence, I'd give a hunter one goof, but the second one would cost him/her.

 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
By the way, how's that baby girl doing?
She appears to be doing good. We went to her first pediatrician appointment yesterday and he said she looked great and he had no concerns. We still have to go back to the neurologist and neurosurgeon in a few weeks for a follow up. I'm hoping and

praying they give us a good report too. Thanks for asking Mike.


Thanks for the great update on your daughter. Prayers continue.
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#3167225 - 02/17/13 11:51 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
Bone Collector
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So I have a couple of questions. I have heard about this Ames Plantation since i got on here, but that is alot of deer.

How many acres is it and how many people hunt it?
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#3167265 - 02/17/13 12:35 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BigGameGuy]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Mike, what is the total acreage of Ames?
18,600 acres, with about 13,600 open for hunting to members.


Edited by Andy S. (02/17/13 01:00 PM)
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3167271 - 02/17/13 12:40 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Bone Collector]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
... how many people hunt it?
Membership this past season was right at 70 members. Ames employees that deer hunt add another 5 hunters or so, and they sometimes bring guests. The most I recall seeing out there this past fall was 50 or so at the same time, and that is typically opening weekend of muzzleloader, opening rifle, or Thanksgiving weekend.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3167275 - 02/17/13 12:45 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Bone Collector]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
...but that is alot of deer.
Our doe kill this year of 143 may be the least we have killed in the last decade. When we first started shooting the does hard, back in 2004-2006, we had at least two seasons where we killed 225 or so does. It didn't take much of that to make our does hide like no other, especially in the easier to access areas. A hunter can still go deep off the beaten path and see 10-15 does a morning in November, but typically these spots are too much work for many members to pull the trigger on a doe, thus the does appear to be more visible in these areas during daylight.


Edited by Andy S. (02/17/13 12:48 PM)
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3167560 - 02/17/13 05:26 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
BSK---
I see your point. The button buck/antlerless kill should be represented as 15-17% of the kill. Still way too high (IMO) for an experienced QDM club.


Without question Mike, 17% of the antlerless kill being young bucks is too high for an experienced QDM club.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3167563 - 02/17/13 05:29 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
The idea that any penalty for killing excessive button bucks may decrease the overall doe kill numbers is valid...to a point. I could understand that concept on public land or anywhere that John Q. was hunting. For a QDM oriented club, and particularly for one that has maintained it's core membership for several years, I would like to think that those hunters were at a different level.


Honestly, I've seen it just the opposite. QDM hunters are far more interested in shooting big bucks than any deer. Impose a penalty for shooting a button buck--especially any penalty that limits their opportunity to shoot a buck--and QDM hunters will flat stop shooting does. John Q. Public really couldn't care as much, as any deer makes them happy.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3167799 - 02/17/13 08:08 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
Boone 58
16 Point


Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 15185
Loc: Food Plot

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Button heads are so hard to avoid because they are just so hard to see them. I shot one this time at 45 yards thinking it was a doe with my bow and wouldnt you know..........i hate that. I never intentionally shoot a button head but we still have it happen every year. I really avoid shooting "lone" deer, because more times than not a single deer is a young loner buck. Very high % of the time. Thanks for sharing , very interesting data.
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#3169997 - 02/19/13 06:24 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Boone 58]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1345
Loc: TN, USA

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That's one way to increase the membership at Ames. Currently we have fines for not shooting enough does or for shooting too small a buck, fines for not signing in and fines for not signing out. Fines for improperly filling out an observation form and fines for not filling out a form. Fines for parking in the wrong place and fines for riding an Atv on the wrong road. Fines for riding an atv on the right rd for the right reason but the wrong time of day. We have fines for just about everything already so lets add fines for shooting button bucks too. Every hunter who shot a bb this year regrets it. Can't we let it slide with a verbal slap on the wrist for one year?
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"I always wanted to do something that was unequivocal" Charles Morris played by Anthony Hopkins in the movie the Edge.

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#3170104 - 02/19/13 07:51 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: fairchaser]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
That's one way to increase the membership at Ames.
Who said we want to increase it? \:D I like it just the way it is. Plenty of great hunters, but not overly crowded, with plenty of woods to roam in.

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Currently we have fines for not shooting enough does or for shooting too small a buck, fines for not signing in and fines for not signing out. Fines for improperly filling out an observation form and fines for not filling out a form. Fines for parking in the wrong place and fines for riding an Atv on the wrong road. Fines for riding an atv on the right rd for the right reason but the wrong time of day.
These fines are spelled out in the contract that we all sign year in and year out before we choose to participate in the Ames hunting club. Knowing this, I do not see how any gripe about our fines is warranted.

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Every hunter who shot a bb this year regrets it.
I believe this to some degree, but you will never make me believe the members who shot multiple buttons, and furthermore, those who have shot multiple buttons over the course of several years are a bit remorseful. I just ain't buying it with the type of seasoned hunters we have. I have no problem with the members who goofed once, like I did few years back, but repeat offenders need "something" to get their attention. Fines may not be the answer, but neither is the current method of just sweeping it under the rug. At a minimum, I think Ames needs to rehash button buck identification and place emphasis on us doing better at our annual supper this fall. My .02
_________________________
Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3171191 - 02/20/13 07:19 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1345
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
That's one way to increase the membership at Ames.
Who said we want to increase it? \:D I like it just the way it is. Plenty of great hunters, but not overly crowded, with plenty of woods to roam in.

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Currently we have fines for not shooting enough does or for shooting too small a buck, fines for not signing in and fines for not signing out. Fines for improperly filling out an observation form and fines for not filling out a form. Fines for parking in the wrong place and fines for riding an Atv on the wrong road. Fines for riding an atv on the right rd for the right reason but the wrong time of day.
These fines are spelled out in the contract that we all sign year in and year out before we choose to participate in the Ames hunting club. Knowing this, I do not see how any gripe about our fines is warranted.

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Every hunter who shot a bb this year regrets it.
I believe this to some degree, but you will never make me believe the members who shot multiple buttons, and furthermore, those who have shot multiple buttons over the course of several years are a bit remorseful. I just ain't buying it with the type of seasoned hunters we have. I have no problem with the members who goofed once, like I did few years back, but repeat offenders need "something" to get their attention. Fines may not be the answer, but neither is the current method of just sweeping it under the rug. At a minimum, I think Ames needs to rehash button buck identification and place emphasis on us doing better at our annual supper this fall. My .02


My hunting buddy shot two bb this season and beat himself up both times badly. I know cause I had to hear about it. But I agree that we need a refresher on bb identification. I am absolutely sure we will get a talking to whether we want it or not. The only reason I want more members is to assure the continuation of the program. Otherwise I had my toes stepped on more than once this season by other hunters. I signed up for all the possible fines but the last thing we need are more rules and fines. Just my humble opinion.
_________________________
"I always wanted to do something that was unequivocal" Charles Morris played by Anthony Hopkins in the movie the Edge.

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#3171484 - 02/21/13 12:51 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: fairchaser]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
My hunting buddy shot two bb this season and beat himself up both times badly. I know cause I had to hear about it.
I believe this 100% because I know you and your group are great people as well as great assets to the Ames hunting club.

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
But I agree that we need a refresher on bb identification.
Yes indeed.

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
I am absolutely sure we will get a talking to whether we want it or not.
I believe you are correct about this. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
The only reason I want more members is to assure the continuation of the program.
In this case, I'd be all for more members before I would be so selfish as to cause the club to fold.

 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
I signed up for all the possible fines but the last thing we need are more rules and fines. Just my humble opinion.
I am certainly not for more fines, but it would not bother me if the fine was warranted. I see rules and fines at Ames similar to the speed limit in our every day life. While I do not always agree with the speed limit, and rarely do I get a speeding ticket, when I do, it is usually 100% warranted based on my oversight and lack of focus at that moment. My .02
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3171527 - 02/21/13 05:37 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BSK]
Layne
4 Point


Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 156
Loc: Eads TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
The idea that any penalty for killing excessive button bucks may decrease the overall doe kill numbers is valid...to a point. I could understand that concept on public land or anywhere that John Q. was hunting. For a QDM oriented club, and particularly for one that has maintained it's core membership for several years, I would like to think that those hunters were at a different level.


Honestly, I've seen it just the opposite. QDM hunters are far more interested in shooting big bucks than any deer. Impose a penalty for shooting a button buck--especially any penalty that limits their opportunity to shoot a buck--and QDM hunters will flat stop shooting does. John Q. Public really couldn't care as much, as any deer makes them happy.


I agree, it's not worth paying a fine for a doe, a lot of hunters will stop shooting does. Fortunately I haven't shot a button on Ames but I've come close. I believe you have to weight the importance of the doe harvest vs saving a few buttons, I think it is reasonable to assume that if you decrease the buttons killed through a fine then you will also decrease the amount of does taken.

Now as for one hunter taking multiple buttons in a season, I do believe that needs addressed in some way. We can all make a mistake but that mistake should lead us to be more diligent the next time we pull the trigger.
Maybe for each button killed a doe is removed from that hunters total which would mean he or she would have to kill two does before they could kill their second buck... just a thought.

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#3171544 - 02/21/13 05:53 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Layne]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Layne
Now as for one hunter taking multiple buttons in a season, I do believe that needs addressed in some way. We can all make a mistake but that mistake should lead us to be more diligent the next time we pull the trigger.
My thoughts exactly Layne.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3171834 - 02/21/13 10:37 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
BigAl
16 Point


Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 19146
Loc: Fayette County, TN US

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Excluding button bucks, what was your number of "legal" buck kills vs "illegal" buck kills. I'm referring to Ames standards.
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#3171907 - 02/21/13 11:51 AM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BigAl]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BigAl
Excluding button bucks, what was your number of "legal" buck kills vs "illegal" buck kills. I'm referring to Ames standards.
Shooters - 24. 21 made it on score (and possibly age too) and 3 made it on age alone.

Non-shooters - 7. Three spikes, three 2.5 year olds and one 3.5 year old.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3172127 - 02/21/13 03:40 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Andy S.]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 18623
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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I can think of at least 1 hunter that not only shoots an illegal buck/season but also a couple of button bucks at Ames. Should he be allowed to continue his membership at the same price as a member that doesn't do this?
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#3172513 - 02/21/13 09:08 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
david k.
4 Point


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 115
Loc: Arlington, TN

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Andy, I'm glad to hear things are going well with your daughter......now tell me where your best spots are 'cause you ain't going to get to hunt much for the next several years...You might get to hunt again when she starts driving and dating if you can afford it. Haha!

I know that mistakes are going to happen but we have to do something.....29 spikes and bb is just too many from a group of 70, seasoned, hunters in my opinion.

Maybe a member gets one free pass on a spike or bb but after the first one any spike or bb counts as a buck against their 2 buck limit that year and if they've already killed 2 bucks and kill a spike or a bb, it counts against their buck total the next year they are a member. A buck is a buck no matter it's age anyway, right?

Personally, I never hunt at Ames without my binoculars and I promise they've saved me a few times.

David K.

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#3173118 - 02/22/13 01:33 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: david k.]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

Offline
Correction here: I previously wrote "18,600 acres, with about 13,600 open for hunting to members" when in fact it is more like 16,600 acres open for members with 2,000 acres being safety zones.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3173123 - 02/22/13 01:41 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BSK]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27878
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Fascinating stats Mike. Thanks for posting them.

I'm guessing the listed average weights are field-dressed weights?

I hope so, even then the weights are lower than I would have suspected for that area!

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#3173190 - 02/22/13 02:59 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Winchester]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Fascinating stats Mike. Thanks for posting them.

I'm guessing the listed average weights are field-dressed weights?

I hope so, even then the weights are lower than I would have suspected for that area!


Agreed. Even our field-dressed weights would easily top those listed.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3173256 - 02/22/13 04:43 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BSK]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 18623
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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Yep, field dressed weights. Our deer aren't very big. Sometimes it makes those racks look better than they actually are.
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#3173287 - 02/22/13 05:28 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Mike Belt]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Yep, field dressed weights. Our deer aren't very big. Sometimes it makes those racks look better than they actually are.

Would also speculate some of the larger body weight bucks may get a pass because their larger bodies make their racks look smaller.

About 3 years ago, I thought I was taking a 4 1/2-yr-old buck with a 130-plus rack. Buck turned out to field-dress barely over 100 lbs, and the rack scored @ 118. Body size can play a bigger role than many hunters might believe in how the rack size "appears" in the field.

I'd speculate that the specific antler criteria being used may be skewing the harvest at Ames towards the smaller body sized bucks.

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#3173317 - 02/22/13 06:04 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
[I'd speculate that the specific antler criteria being used may be skewing the harvest at Ames towards the smaller body sized bucks.


That's an interesting and rational theory.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3173331 - 02/22/13 06:15 PM Re: Some Ames Stats... [Re: BSK]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 18623
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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I hadn't thought about that Wes and you might be right. I know I've passed a couple of dandy bucks weight size-wise that had good racks but I may have been pre-disposed to seeing smaller body sizes at Ames.
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