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#3164095 - 02/14/13 03:58 PM Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting?
feldmutze
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Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 394
Loc: Clinton, Tn.

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Anyone?
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#3164111 - 02/14/13 04:19 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: feldmutze]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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If so, they should be ashamed. \:\) I'm partly joking - partly serious. I love 22 centerfires as groundhog shooting was my main hunting interest for years and still would be if we still had groundhogs. But that's what the 22 centerfires excel at and should be limited to. Shooting a deer with such a cartridge is pushing the limits too far. You have to use the very best controlled expansion bullets and limit shots to broadside only and even then you barely have enough of everything to make a clean kill. In other words you have a rifle that should only be used by the most experienced hunters who are very good shots. But most of these guns are going to be used by inexperienced shooters because they are easier to shoot because of their light recoil.

I know they are legal in TN but I think it was an irresponsible decision that our lawmakers made when they took away the 24 caliber minimum for deer.

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#3164170 - 02/14/13 05:13 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 12446
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
If so, they should be ashamed. \:\) I'm partly joking - partly serious. I love 22 centerfires as groundhog shooting was my main hunting interest for years and still would be if we still had groundhogs. But that's what the 22 centerfires excel at and should be limited to. Shooting a deer with such a cartridge is pushing the limits too far. You have to use the very best controlled expansion bullets and limit shots to broadside only and even then you barely have enough of everything to make a clean kill. In other words you have a rifle that should only be used by the most experienced hunters who are very good shots. But most of these guns are going to be used by inexperienced shooters because they are easier to shoot because of their light recoil.

I know they are legal in TN but I think it was an irresponsible decision that our lawmakers made when they took away the 24 caliber minimum for deer.


I know guys who take base of the head shots with .223. -either clean miss, or drop them.
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#3164230 - 02/14/13 06:24 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Poser]
pressfit
10 Point


Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 3027
Loc: Giles Co. Tn

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I have killed several with a 223.. so have my kids.. its like every other caliber.... shot placement is the key to any humane kill...
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#3164296 - 02/14/13 07:15 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: pressfit]
Redfred16
8 Point


Registered: 01/22/12
Posts: 1410
Loc: Hartland, WI

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I tried but wasn't offered the shot in WI. I was hunting in a cedar swamp, long shot was 50 yards and I figure that round would do more damage than a broadhead.

I know several people that have used them in Texas.
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#3164309 - 02/14/13 07:30 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Redfred16]
mathews338
10 Point


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 4948
Loc: jackson co.

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No way! Yes it will kill and I'm sure lots have been but it is too small and everything would have to be perfect. I guess most people think my .338 is overkill but I hunt hard to only have a few encounters with mature bucks each year and I want to put the odds in my favor as much as I can.
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#3164357 - 02/14/13 08:15 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mathews338]
-DRM-
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Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 768
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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.223 has killed plenty of deer. If you aren't comfortable and competent with your shot, you could always over-compensate with a larger caliber.
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#3164593 - 02/15/13 05:15 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: -DRM-]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 2799
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

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Inuits in the arctic use them to hunt Polar Bears because of their "incredible knock-down power." Many people use .223s for much larger game than deer.
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#3164613 - 02/15/13 05:54 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: -DRM-]
mathews338
10 Point


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 4948
Loc: jackson co.

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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
.223 has killed plenty of deer. If you aren't comfortable and competent with your shot, you could always over-compensate with a larger caliber.
yep and you can you sit in your treestand and watch the biggest buck of your life just walk off because it didn't offer the perfect shot angle!

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#3164621 - 02/15/13 06:11 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: -DRM-]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2460
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
.223 has killed plenty of deer. If you aren't comfortable and competent with your shot, you could always over-compensate with a larger caliber.


Bingo - love it.
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#3164623 - 02/15/13 06:14 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mathews338]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2460
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: mathews338
...watch the biggest buck of your life just walk off because it didn't offer the perfect shot angle!


Personally, if shot angle is a factor then I won't shoot any deer regardless of what caliber I might be toting. That's just me. I've never shot a deer with a .223 but have a friend whose young son and daughter shoot one. They have killed deer with it, and so far have had no issue.
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#3164715 - 02/15/13 08:34 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: BlountArrow]
Bayou Buck
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Registered: 05/11/09
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I shot a small deer this year with my AR. Aimed for neck and dropped it in its tracts. I've also killed 200+ lb hogs with my .22 mag. Its all about shot placement. As with all calibers, you shouldn't shoot if you dont have a good kill shot.
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#3164728 - 02/15/13 08:45 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Bayou Buck]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2460
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: Bayou Buck
...you shouldn't shoot if you dont have a good kill shot.


A very basic principle that should be in the top 3 when it comes to the "rules afield", yet I hear about or see people veering away from this all the time. Personally, respect for the animal and respect for my responsibility to kill an animal in the most humane way possible excludes me from doing anything different.
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#3164859 - 02/15/13 10:36 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: BlountArrow]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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Yes a 223 can kill a deer. When the 220 Swift 1st came out people were shooting Elk, Moose and even Grizzlies. Sure you'll have some success. A 22 short is a puny little cartridge but you wouldn't shoot your favorite dog with it because there's a good chance the dog will die but that hardly means it's the best cartridge for the job. I'm not one of those guys that thinks you need a 300 Magnum either. Heck, I think a large 30 caliber for deer is a waste unless you just want one but on the other end of the spectrum the 22 centerfires are just too small. If you are looking for something with minimal recoil the 24's or reduced loads in something like the 7mm-08 or 260 Remington are a lot more responsible than a 22.
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#3164870 - 02/15/13 10:39 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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Regarding head shots with any cartridge, I used to agree that they would either be a kill or clean miss but I disagree now. It would be very easy to hit a jaw or nose and leave a deer with a horrible wound to slowly die. I just don't think head shots are a good idea unless the deer is really close and you KNOw you can make it and how do you ever know 100%. A behind the shoulder has a lot more margin for error if you wobble or the deer moves just as you pull the trigger.
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#3164900 - 02/15/13 11:02 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
Redfred16
8 Point


Registered: 01/22/12
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If you plan on using a .223/5.56 on deer, please don't use standard ball ammo. There are manufacturers out there that make hunting rounds in this caliber, designed to do more damage and help kill large game.

A .223/5.56 can drop a human, a hog or a deer, but ball ammo is not made to kill quickly.
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#3164959 - 02/15/13 11:38 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: BlountArrow]
mathews338
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Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 4948
Loc: jackson co.

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: mathews338
...watch the biggest buck of your life just walk off because it didn't offer the perfect shot angle!


Personally, if shot angle is a factor then I won't shoot any deer regardless of what caliber I might be toting. That's just me. I've never shot a deer with a .223 but have a friend whose young son and daughter shoot one. They have killed deer with it, and so far have had no issue.
don't get me wrong, I don't just throw the gun to my shoulder, find hair in the scope and pull the trigger. I have as much respect for game as anyone and I am as ethical as anyone. but stuff happens regardless of how good a shot you are. bullet placement is key but anyone who has hunted knows that you are not always gonna put it exactly where it needs to be. IMO the percentage of deer that run off wounded to never be found is much higer with the smaller calibers. people can say i'm over compensating for something all they want but I ain't lost one yet and my .338 has killed near 50. again, this is just my opinion so shoot what you want.

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#3165025 - 02/15/13 12:35 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: feldmutze]
feldmutze
4 Point


Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 394
Loc: Clinton, Tn.

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 Quote:
If you plan on using a .223/5.56 on deer, please don't use standard ball ammo. There are manufacturers out there that make hunting rounds in this caliber, designed to do more damage and help kill large game.

A .223/5.56 can drop a human, a hog or a deer, but ball ammo is not made to kill quickly.


Ball ammo is not legal per the hunting regulations
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#3165060 - 02/15/13 01:05 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: feldmutze]
Football Hunter
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Seems a bit small to me,but do whatever you like.
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#3165069 - 02/15/13 01:09 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: feldmutze]
Redfred16
8 Point


Registered: 01/22/12
Posts: 1410
Loc: Hartland, WI

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 Originally Posted By: feldmutze
 Quote:
If you plan on using a .223/5.56 on deer, please don't use standard ball ammo. There are manufacturers out there that make hunting rounds in this caliber, designed to do more damage and help kill large game.

A .223/5.56 can drop a human, a hog or a deer, but ball ammo is not made to kill quickly.


Ball ammo is not legal per the hunting regulations


Even better but I just hate for people to buy M885 and think its okay.
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#3165102 - 02/15/13 01:30 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mathews338]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 768
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: mathews338
IMO the percentage of deer that run off wounded to never be found is much higer with the smaller calibers.


I'd be interested in how the researcher accounted for shot placement in their data collection for that report you're quoting. That is a research report, right? ;\)
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#3165112 - 02/15/13 01:40 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 18959
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
Regarding head shots with any cartridge, I used to agree that they would either be a kill or clean miss but I disagree now. It would be very easy to hit a jaw or nose and leave a deer with a horrible wound to slowly die. I just don't think head shots are a good idea . . . . .

I've personally seen this happen twice now, and in both cases, the shooter did not recover the deer, which in both cases died a lingering death several days after someone took an "easy" head-shot.

In the two above cases, the hunters were using larger calibers than a .223, but I'd hate to limit myself to a gun that's more limited to just certain shots to have high probability. Besides that, if I planned to do a shoulder mount on a buck, sure wouldn't want to shoot him in the head. Actually, good chance you just might hit the antlers, too.

My take on the .22 centerfires recently become legal in TN was that "the powers that be" figured it would have only a tiny effect on anything related to the deer harvest, while it ended the vocal few complaining that they couldn't use a .22 centerfire. Very few hunters have any desire to use a less effective weapon.

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#3165137 - 02/15/13 02:04 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: -DRM-]
mathews338
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Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 4948
Loc: jackson co.

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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: mathews338
IMO the percentage of deer that run off wounded to never be found is much higer with the smaller calibers.


I'd be interested in how the researcher accounted for shot placement in their data collection for that report you're quoting. That is a research report, right? ;\)
do you not know what IMO stands for. even though it is only my opinion I still believe it is the truth. ;\)

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#3165232 - 02/15/13 03:56 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mathews338]
W.Seay
14 Point


Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 8124
Loc: Collierville,TN.

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Nope, my dang pellet gun will kill a deer "with good shot placement" there are way too many much more ethical calibers for deer!
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#3165367 - 02/15/13 05:51 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: feldmutze]
Vermin93
12 Point


Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 5238
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN

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This will probably stir up further discussion -

Deer Cartridges from Bad to Good

"The point is, you don't want a minimum deer cartridge unless, due to extreme recoil sensitivity, you simply cannot handle anything better. You certainly do not want a sub-minimum deer cartridge under any circumstances! Looking at factory ammunition loading lists from Federal, Remington and Winchester, here are some examples of cartridges that I would regard as poor to inadequate for deer hunting:

All centerfire .22's, specifically including, but not limited to, the .223 Rem. and .223 WSSM. Regardless of their legality and anybody's advertising hype, these are varmint cartridges; they are NOT deer cartridges."




Edited by Vermin93 (02/15/13 09:02 PM)
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#3165531 - 02/15/13 08:10 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Vermin93]
climb_higher
4 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 461
Loc: Tennessee

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I wouldn't hunt deer with a .22 cal. Like its been said earlier in this thread, why limit yourself? Why not set yourself up more for succes than failure? Granted, even with the largest calibers, its never a guaranteed kill everytime you pull the trigger. But id sure feel a lot more confident shooting that big buck with my .308 than any .22 cal ever made. And if you're just using a .22 cal on deer just to feel that youre superior to other hunters or to feel that youre "elite" and a better shot than the rest of us, please dont kid yourself. Too many variables to hunting a mature whitetail. And i dont plan on adding another one by limiting myself.
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#3165719 - 02/16/13 01:37 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: climb_higher]
mike243
16 Point


Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 11522
Loc: east tn

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I would hazard a guess that 10x or more deer are lost with bows than guns every year.where's the ethical calibur with them? \:\)
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#3165743 - 02/16/13 05:39 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mike243]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 768
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: mike243
I would hazard a guess that 10x or more deer are lost with bows than guns every year.where's the ethical calibur with them? \:\)


I've lost one with a bow, and one with my 300BLK. I recovered every deer I have ever shot with a .223
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#3165773 - 02/16/13 06:27 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: -DRM-]
mike243
16 Point


Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 11522
Loc: east tn

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Lack of Ability & Judgement get renamed as unethical ,Knowing the gun ,bow or your own ability is the hunters responsibility,sometimes we forget the limits & loose a animal & other times its a hunting thing & cant be helped.If a pattern develops of loosing game changing bows broadheads or guns wont do anything other than cost you $.Correcting problems on big game hunts are hard to do as most hunt alone with no 1 there to critique or mentor them .
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#3165911 - 02/16/13 08:33 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mike243]
GOODWIN
4 Point


Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 383
Loc: Jackson, MS

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Shot a buck a few years ago with one and will never do it again. He was slightly quartering away and the bullet (I believe it was a 70gr Win power point) hit rib and then just tunneled under the skin all the way to in front of the shoulder. My dad shot this buck a week later and my bullet was recovered. I believe a bigger caliber would have punched on through to vitals with ease. Why do so many marines, seals, rangers, etc. say they would prefer a larger round than the 5.56? Yes they may be shooting fmj rounds but more than one shot is often needed.

On a side note...I don't believe any shot that you can take is a "hit or miss". Their is margin for error and potential for injuring a deer anywhere you take aim.
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#3165976 - 02/16/13 09:25 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: GOODWIN]
feldmutze
4 Point


Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 394
Loc: Clinton, Tn.

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I started the thread just off of curiosity since the caliber is now legal and I note there are pretty good rounds made for hunting, 78 gr, Rem Corelock or Nosler Partition.

I've used a .270 for about 25 years now, before that it was a 30-06. I love the .270 for whitetail, probably if I had to do it all over again I might go .243 with the standard 100 gr.

Where I hunt in Loudon it's overrun with yotes & I take 1 or 2 per year with the .270. Often a pair of area beagles will run one by at 150/200 yards. I've got a sweet Colt AR w/Trijicon ACOG scope that would be the ticket for those situations so was just wanting opinions for those that had used it on whitetails. I've always thought 100 grain bullets would be about the minimum I'd want for whitetails....
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#3166001 - 02/16/13 09:40 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mike243]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 768
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: mike243
Lack of Ability & Judgement get renamed as unethical ,Knowing the gun ,bow or your own ability is the hunters responsibility,sometimes we forget the limits & loose a animal & other times its a hunting thing & cant be helped.If a pattern develops of loosing game changing bows broadheads or guns wont do anything other than cost you $.Correcting problems on big game hunts are hard to do as most hunt alone with no 1 there to critique or mentor them .


Good point - this year I am trying to spend more time shooting with other people who have more experience, and using them for feedback to help me do a better job.

I know my personal limits, I know when I have a good shot and a bad shot, and yes - I have let hundreds of deer walk for one reason or another, and it won't hurt my feelings if I have to let the "big one" walk when a good shot simply isn't there.

And having a different gun in my hand does not change that one bit.
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#3166848 - 02/16/13 10:02 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
Deer Assassin
dammit
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Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 86150
Loc: Kingston Springs

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
If so, they should be ashamed. \:\) I'm partly joking - partly serious. I love 22 centerfires as groundhog shooting was my main hunting interest for years and still would be if we still had groundhogs. But that's what the 22 centerfires excel at and should be limited to. Shooting a deer with such a cartridge is pushing the limits too far. You have to use the very best controlled expansion bullets and limit shots to broadside only and even then you barely have enough of everything to make a clean kill. In other words you have a rifle that should only be used by the most experienced hunters who are very good shots. But most of these guns are going to be used by inexperienced shooters because they are easier to shoot because of their light recoil.

I know they are legal in TN but I think it was an irresponsible decision that our lawmakers made when they took away the 24 caliber minimum for deer.
heck they kill as good as any 243

ive seen deer killed with 204 ruger and 35 grain bergers

shot placement people loose deer with 300 rum and 7 mags
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#3166849 - 02/16/13 10:04 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: mike243]
Deer Assassin
dammit
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Registered: 08/01/03
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 Originally Posted By: mike243
I would hazard a guess that 10x or more deer are lost with bows than guns every year.where's the ethical calibur with them? \:\)
i agree
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#3168839 - 02/18/13 05:15 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Deer Assassin]
Columbia Scott
6 Point


Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 991
Loc: Columbia, Tennessee

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I have a .223 for home defense and the back of the patrol car. It is a proven 1 shot manstopper. I've seen it work personally. I guess I could shoot a deer with it but I'd prefer my 30.06 because at 250 yards the .223 gets sort of unpredictable out of my m4. Good for a combat and varmint rifle. Not so much when it comes to deer.
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#3169357 - 02/19/13 05:31 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Columbia Scott]
BlackBelt
10 Point


Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 3095
Loc: SouthWest TN

content Online
I guess it would help to hang a 100 round Beta-mag out of the magwell and send a volley of shots towards the deer \:D
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#3170650 - 02/20/13 10:38 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: BlackBelt]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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OK, to make my point regarding 22 centerfire’s for deer we have to look at who is going to be using them. The way I see it, we have two totally different types of hunters here. In my opinion, the larger group consists mostly of beginning shooters who are afraid of recoil. They mostly go to 243’s but some use 22’s – mostly 223’s as a cure for flinching. Neither cartridge has an excess of power and both require shot placement to make up for it. Yet, these beginning hunters are rarely good shots nor do they have enough experience to know when to pass up a bad shot under pressure. See the conflict there? Minimal cartridges requiring perfect shot placement in the hands of the poorest shots in the woods. A 22 centerfire is simply a bad fit for this type hunter. Yes, it is better for a beginner to choose a light recoiling cartridge that they can learn to shoot well rather than trying to compensate for poor marksmanship with a magnum. BUT, you don’t need to go to either extreme. Moderation is the more reasonable path here - there are a lot of great deer cartridges such as the 6.5x55, 260Rem, 7x57, 7mm-08, 30-30, 7.62x39 and so on. There are others in this general category that will give much more predictable/consistent terminal performance than a 22 centerfire.
Regarding dealing with recoil and learning to shoot, the best thing a beginning hunter can do is get a 22 rimfire and practice a lot shooting offhand rather than always using sandbags. A steel gong target gives instant feedback when you score a hit and keeps it interesting for kids or somebody new to shooting.
Personally, I am NOT a fan of the 24's either as I have a 6mm Remington that I have never taken deer hunting. It's just too small for me but step up to the 6.5mm's and small 7mm's and you have some great cartridges for beginners. Obviously, I like the 25’s as my “Handle” indicates but even with them, I stay clear of the light for caliber bullets to avoid grenading a bullet with close shots. As with any caliber though as you go to the slower 25’s (250 Savage, 257 Roberts) the need for controlled expansion bullets goes down.
All right, I've talked about beginning hunters - now what about experienced hunters who use 22 centerfires. I am very aware of the "struck by lightning" kills these guns can give. I've shot a lot of groundhogs with the 22-250, 220 Swift and 22CHeetah. A few coyotes too. A 50gr Sierra Blitz out of the CHeetah at 4080fps explodes inside a groundhog and they never even know what hit them. I practically never got an exit hole with these guns on groundhogs. I'm sure it would do the same thing to a deer but what happens when there is a twig between you and the deer that you don't see? What about if that twig is just a few inches from the deer? You get a spray of shrapnel blowing into the deer's side that leaves a horrible surface wound but doesn't penetrate. I know there are hunting bullets made for 22's now that are controlled expansion and that the 223 is not pushing as high velocity as the cartridges I named above which lessens the chance of bullet blow up but the fact remains that these tiny bullets are not nearly as reliable to penetrate straight and deep as a larger bullet. Even for an experienced hunter and shooter, I just can’t see risking a badly wounded deer using a groundhog gun to deer hunt.

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#3171106 - 02/20/13 06:03 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 14342
Loc: Lewisburg

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
If so, they should be ashamed. \:\) I'm partly joking - partly serious. I love 22 centerfires as groundhog shooting was my main hunting interest for years and still would be if we still had groundhogs. But that's what the 22 centerfires excel at and should be limited to. Shooting a deer with such a cartridge is pushing the limits too far. You have to use the very best controlled expansion bullets and limit shots to broadside only and even then you barely have enough of everything to make a clean kill. In other words you have a rifle that should only be used by the most experienced hunters who are very good shots. But most of these guns are going to be used by inexperienced shooters because they are easier to shoot because of their light recoil.

I know they are legal in TN but I think it was an irresponsible decision that our lawmakers made when they took away the 24 caliber minimum for deer.




i agree, but they did predator hunters a favor by allow coyote rounds (22 centerfires) to be carried on predator hunts that occur during deer season. it is legal, but people should use their own judgement. kind like cigarettes, i hate them but i believe in freedom and personal choice.
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#3173517 - 02/22/13 09:05 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: redblood]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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 Originally Posted By: redblood
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
If so, they should be ashamed. \:\) I'm partly joking - partly serious. I love 22 centerfires as groundhog shooting was my main hunting interest for years and still would be if we still had groundhogs. But that's what the 22 centerfires excel at and should be limited to. Shooting a deer with such a cartridge is pushing the limits too far. You have to use the very best controlled expansion bullets and limit shots to broadside only and even then you barely have enough of everything to make a clean kill. In other words you have a rifle that should only be used by the most experienced hunters who are very good shots. But most of these guns are going to be used by inexperienced shooters because they are easier to shoot because of their light recoil.

I know they are legal in TN but I think it was an irresponsible decision that our lawmakers made when they took away the 24 caliber minimum for deer.




i agree, but they did predator hunters a favor by allow coyote rounds (22 centerfires) to be carried on predator hunts that occur during deer season. it is legal, but people should use their own judgement. kind like cigarettes, i hate them but i believe in freedom and personal choice.


Yeah, I always did find it a bit frustrating when you couldn't take a 22 centerfire to the field during deer season even when not deer hunting. I'm sure the law was written like that to make it easier to enforce against people who were claiming to predator hunt while they were actually deer hunting - likely with no Big Game license - but it wasn't fair to the actual predator hunters who wanted to use a 22 centerfire.


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#3173557 - 02/22/13 09:26 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Redfred16]
Super8
8 Point


Registered: 07/15/12
Posts: 1452
Loc: USofA

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It's not my first choice, but as mentioned prior in the thread (it will do the job) if you are good enough.
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#3176411 - 02/26/13 05:13 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: GOODWIN]
tickweed
10 Point


Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 4722
Loc: medon,Tn.

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Had a friend kill one this year in west Tn, 180lbs dressed, 180 inch non typ. A brute of a deer. He doesnt usually hunt deer with it, but had a guest come in, and he loaned his regular rifle. He had a good broadside shot, eighty yds, and put it in his lungs. He did shoot him twice. He said each shot the deer just flinched, the slowly went down. No doubt the 223 will do it, but seems a little small for me.
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The hardest thing about Bowhunting Turkeys is leaving the gun at home!

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#3177141 - 02/26/13 04:56 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: tickweed]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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 Originally Posted By: tickweed
Had a friend kill one this year in west Tn, 180lbs dressed, 180 inch non typ. A brute of a deer. He doesnt usually hunt deer with it, but had a guest come in, and he loaned his regular rifle. He had a good broadside shot, eighty yds, and put it in his lungs. He did shoot him twice. He said each shot the deer just flinched, the slowly went down. No doubt the 223 will do it, but seems a little small for me.


Yeah, a broadside, behind-the-shoulder hit on even a large deer doesn't require much penetration at all as you know. Their ribs are relatively light bones so a 223 will get the job done for that shot. I typically try to wait for a broadside shot but sometimes you have to take a raking shot at a running deer and then things change quickly. Instead of 3 inches of bullet penetration to get to the heart it may require 18 inches. As has been already said, a hunter should be ethical about shot placement no matter what he hunts with but larger calibers allow some deviation from the perfect shot. A "Texas heart shot" is not recommended with anything. Well, I DO have one rifle that I have taken that very shot with and had 100% confidence it could do the job. That is my 460 Weatherby using the 350 grain Hornady softpoint at 2,900fps. It will punch through a deer end-to-end time after time. Didn't carry the heavy beast to the woods at all this year though. A 10 1/2lb rifle - before the scope is added wears you down. \:\)

Congratulations to your friend, BTW, for a buck like that!

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#3177385 - 02/26/13 07:36 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
TNhunter
TnDeer Old Timer
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 4373
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN, Rutherford

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9mm with inferior ammo isn't the 'best' for personal protection. BUT with all the development with bullets it is completely a viable personal protection round. Just like the .223/5.56 - use the correct bullet and shot placement and it is FINE to use as a deer hunting weapon.
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"If there is unrest, the government will seize all the registered guns."

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#3177395 - 02/26/13 07:46 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: BlountArrow]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2460
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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Are we still talking about this? LOL
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#3177596 - 02/27/13 04:52 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 20716
Loc: lenoir city,tn

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
I typically try to wait for a broadside shot but sometimes you have to take a raking shot at a running deer and then things change quickly.


you never "have to take" any shot. i will not shoot at a running deer. raking shot? what is that?
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experienced hunters know its not just a bushy white tail, its a big middle finger.

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#3177615 - 02/27/13 05:48 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: stik]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
I typically try to wait for a broadside shot but sometimes you have to take a raking shot at a running deer and then things change quickly.


you never "have to take" any shot. i will not shoot at a running deer. raking shot? what is that?


Not bragging about my shooting (because I definitely was not a natural with a gun as a kid) but I've shot about half my bucks running. I don't get that many chances at bucks so I'm not going to lie and say I'll pass up anything but a perfect shot. I guess all the shotgun shooting I've done helps me there because most of the time I don't even recall specific details of my actions as I pulled the trigger - it's just sort of an automatic response. Swing, pull trigger and follow through. I can recall the sight picture and if it felt good which it usually does. I hit a doe running one time at about 125 yds 3 times in a row with - of all things - the 460 Weatherby using 300 grain Barnes bullets. Two of which mushroomed perfectly and stopped just under the far side hide. How that deer kept getting back to it's feet, I'll never understand except that I did not lead it far enough for the 1st shot and hit it too far back. I've yet to lose a deer either. Obviously hunting deer with a 460 Weatherby is ridiculous but I have the gun and sometimes use it. Typically I prefer the 25's or 270.

I assume you are serious asing what is a raking shot? That's when a deer is going away from you but not straight away so that you have to shoot maybe 2/3 of the way back the side of the rib cage to reach the vitals. OR maybe you were saying that you would never take that shot - hard to tell with typed words if someone is speaking literally or not.

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#3177641 - 02/27/13 06:48 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 20716
Loc: lenoir city,tn

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
I typically try to wait for a broadside shot but sometimes you have to take a raking shot at a running deer and then things change quickly.


you never "have to take" any shot. i will not shoot at a running deer. raking shot? what is that?


Not bragging about my shooting (because I definitely was not a natural with a gun as a kid) but I've shot about half my bucks running. I don't get that many chances at bucks so I'm not going to lie and say I'll pass up anything but a perfect shot. I guess all the shotgun shooting I've done helps me there because most of the time I don't even recall specific details of my actions as I pulled the trigger - it's just sort of an automatic response. Swing, pull trigger and follow through. I can recall the sight picture and if it felt good which it usually does. I hit a doe running one time at about 125 yds 3 times in a row with - of all things - the 460 Weatherby using 300 grain Barnes bullets. Two of which mushroomed perfectly and stopped just under the far side hide. How that deer kept getting back to it's feet, I'll never understand except that I did not lead it far enough for the 1st shot and hit it too far back. I've yet to lose a deer either. Obviously hunting deer with a 460 Weatherby is ridiculous but I have the gun and sometimes use it. Typically I prefer the 25's or 270.

I assume you are serious asing what is a raking shot? That's when a deer is going away from you but not straight away so that you have to shoot maybe 2/3 of the way back the side of the rib cage to reach the vitals. OR maybe you were saying that you would never take that shot - hard to tell with typed words if someone is speaking literally or not.


i was not questioning your shooting ability. just mine it's a shot i will not take. and i was serious asking about the raking shot. i didn't know.
_________________________
experienced hunters know its not just a bushy white tail, its a big middle finger.

nothing makes a fish bigger than almost being caught


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#3177814 - 02/27/13 09:11 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: stik]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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On the offside, I DID miss 4 shots at STANDING deer this year.......... Figure that one?? I blamed that on myself becoming one of those hunters that hardly shoots except at game the past few years. After all those misses, I got my 22 bolt action out and started shooting offhand at a steel gong at 100yards and then got the 7.62x39 carbine out for more of the same with a centerfire. After a few sessions I got some semblance of trigger control and follow through back and was hitting the 8” gong the majority of the time at 100 yards. Shooting has never come naturally for me - I have to work hard at shooting to stay good - luckily I enjoy doing it! I just have to start taking time again to stay in practice. And offhand shooting is the only way to really do that. A steel target and a scoped 22 rifle is the best way to get good without going broke buying ammo. You can fire repeated shots without walking to set up the target – you get instant feedback on each shot if it’s a “hit” or “miss” so that you can keep shooting. Regular sessions of 50 to 100 shots will do wonders for anybody.
For running game though, there’s no way most of us can really practice on moving targets with a rifle. How many ranges have a moving rifle target? The only ones I have seen are in Gun magazines. Shooting a shotgun though involves the same basic skills. The big difference is that with a rifle you have a precise aiming point (crosshair) where a shotgun only has a bead. The shotgun is pointed more than aimed. IMO, you have to be able to shoot with both eyes open to follow a running deer and shoot it with a scoped rifle. And for me, it should only be attempted when the deer is trotting. In other words, they are running but their body is traveling with a pure horizontal motion. Once they start bounding up and down, I don’t try it. Its one thing to lead the correct amount to hit a moving target but quite another to time the shot well enough when that same target is bounding up and down at the same time. I’m sure there are shooters who can but I probably never will be able to practice enough to even come close to doing that.

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#3178261 - 02/27/13 03:37 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
Deer Boy
4 Point


Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 350
Loc: Union City, TN

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My kids have killed almost 10 deer with one! We've only lost one during this time! But, in the hands of an excited 9 year old not too bad! My oldest boy killed one over 150 yards, that was the longest shot they've taken. Several drop in their tracks shots also. I think it's great for your hunters, now my oldest uses a 25-06 and my youngest boy uses a .243. The .223 is now waiting my 5 yo girl when she's ready to hunt! I also recommend using heavier soft point bullets! Never use fmj! To each his own on caliber! Enjoy the hunt and let me enjoy it my way!
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#3178573 - 02/27/13 08:07 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Deer Boy]
BMan
16 Point


Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10351
Loc: Middle TN

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 Originally Posted By: Deer Boy
I also recommend using heavier soft point bullets! Never use fmj!

FMJ is not legal for deer hunting, so soft or hollow points are required.

I've used 64 grain bullets for deer; what weight have you been using?
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#3178858 - 02/28/13 07:19 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: BMan]
Deer Boy
4 Point


Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 350
Loc: Union City, TN

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Started off using the .55 gr Remington, found the .64 gr federal that I switched to that I like a whole lot better. The .64's I can never find off the shelf local, always have to order them.
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#3178888 - 02/28/13 07:38 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Deer Boy]
Jcalder
6 Point


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 945
Loc: Tennesse

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Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.
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#3178900 - 02/28/13 07:48 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
Deer Boy
4 Point


Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 350
Loc: Union City, TN

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Jcalder, when everyone is as "good" as you are, then maybe no one will ever loose a deer! But a rifle in the hands of a 8 year old under not perfect conditions! One in ten I'll take all day long! That's a whole lot higher than most bow hunters on here! Take your high horse and ride it somewhere else! Also the only deer I have ever lost I shot it with a .338 win mag. Dropped him in his tracks, got down out of my stand and packed it up was walking to him he got up and ran off! Jumped him the next day and missed him running. Saw him a week later hobbling across a field. What do you propose now? .50 bmg?

BTW...thanks TN for allowing my kids to hunt with a caliber that doesn't scare them, they enjoy hunting and shooting a whole lot more!
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#3178923 - 02/28/13 08:04 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Deer Boy]
Jcalder
6 Point


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 945
Loc: Tennesse

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I suggest you learn how to shoot for one. I'm not looking for an argument but losing 10% of your deer is unacceptable for me. And why are you letting an 8 year old take shots when the shot isn't there. I'm no marksmen by any means but I know when to pull the trigger and when not too.
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#3178950 - 02/28/13 08:26 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
Deer Boy
4 Point


Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 350
Loc: Union City, TN

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Your not looking for an argument? And telling me I need to Learn to shoot? You need to wake up! I've killed close to 100 deer only lost one with a high powerd rifle! Lost some with bow and muzzle loader.

If you've never lost a deer you haven't been hunting too long then!

As for the ONE lost with a .223 the shot was 40 yd "walking" shot. We tracked for over 300 yds, lost it in a wide open bean field. Later found out that the neighboring hunters found it and tagged it.

None the less, if YOU don't want to hunt with one then fine!...don't!

Just keep your mouth shut condemning others about the way they hunt! If your good enough to kill one with a sling shot and it was legal...more power to you, I'm not going to judge you!
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#3178957 - 02/28/13 08:34 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Deer Boy]
Jcalder
6 Point


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 945
Loc: Tennesse

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I've lost one deer in the time I've been hunting. I'm not proud of it. But it happens. But to have the logic of losing one in ten ain't bad is crazy.
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#3178996 - 02/28/13 09:06 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
Deer Boy
4 Point


Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 350
Loc: Union City, TN

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When I was younger, I use to take the same stance that your taking and made the same arguments. I've done a lot of hunting with a .220 swift love that gun killed hundreds of ground hogs and a few coyotes with it. I've never taken it deer hunting, I feel confident in it! I later learned to let people hunt the way they feel is ethical or what they can afford to hunt with, without bashing their means!

You don't know the circumstances of the one lost, I can't explain what happened cause I don't know where the deer exactly was hit. I can't explain what happened to the one I shot with the .338! Things are going to happen in the deer woods that can't be explained. I use to bash people for using power belt bullets, cause they didn't preform well...in my opinion! I would never use them had too many friends lose deer with them. But, to each their own! I don't know where the deer was hit or what kind of shot they took? What does it matter to you and me? I have seen the .223 work great on deer dropping them in their tracks, I've saw deer shot with 30-06 heart shot run 100 yards...can't explain it! But some deer just don't want to die. I've double lung shot a doe in IL that ran about 50 yards, took three of us over 2 hrs in the dark to find her!...no blood! She was so fat the fat plugged the holes. I heard her crash, one guy helping kept saying I've never seen a lung shot deer not bleed. Well we found out why when we found her!

Just because someone loses a deer dont say that it's the caliber! Cause your not there and we don't know the circumstances!
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#3179019 - 02/28/13 09:22 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Deer Boy]
Jcalder
6 Point


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 945
Loc: Tennesse

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In not bashing anyone for using a smaller caliber. But to have the logic of losing one in ten ain't bad is what I disagree with. I do agree that things happen that can't be explained. I'm glad you take your kids hunting but I couldn't let my kid take a shot on a deer and lose it, and tell them "well, losing one in ten ain't bad." I agree that with the proper bullet and placement it'll be fine. I'd also hate to know that I had to let a buck of a lifetime walk because the angle wasn't there for that bullet to get enough penetration to make a clean kill. As you stated above and I agree that things happen. I'd rather know that by using a bigger caliber is gonna help my chances at success if something goes wrong. Like I said before. I'm not looking for an argument. I'm not lookin to bash someone for using a .22 caliber rifle to deer hunt with. The biggest disagreement I have with your statement is losing one in ten ain't bad. You may not have meant for it to sound like it did but I'd to have that logic around any deer camp that I'm involved in.
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#3179026 - 02/28/13 09:30 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1789
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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So 10 deer are shot by someone with a 223 and one is lost. How about if none are lost with the next 10 or 20 that are shot - that is now 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 that are lost - is that acceptable? I would say that it is not uncommon for a beginning deer hunter to lose one early in their hunting career. So if a hunter uses a 7mm mag and loses the first deer that they shoot does that mean they should sell it and get a bigger caliber, or do they continue to use it and kill the next 20, 30 or 100 they shoot at?
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#3179042 - 02/28/13 09:44 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: woodchuckc]
Jcalder
6 Point


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 945
Loc: Tennesse

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Woodchuck. I think you missed my point. I'm not saying that just because you lose one means you need to sell out or quit hunting. My point is saying that losing one in ten is not bad is not the logic to have. That's the issue I have. I understand that when you're young or just starting out you may lose an animal. But I don't think it's acceptable to think its ok to say one in ten ain't bad. I lost one deer within the first 3 years of hunting. I wasn't proud of it. Won't brag about it. It still bothers me. But I also learned to check my equipment everytime I go and to continuously practice. Losing animals happens. But I don't think saying one in whatever number is ok. Maybe my ethics are different than yours.
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#3179051 - 02/28/13 09:53 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
Deer Boy
4 Point


Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 350
Loc: Union City, TN

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Sorry you took it the wrong way then, your forgiven! Guess the point I was trying to make is two little squirts under 10 years old killed 9 deer and only lost one! No matter what caliber they were shooting, yes I'm very proud! Again, you don't know the circumstances!

I felt obligated to post on this subject for any one considering .223 to feel confident in their choice! If in the hands of two immature hunters can shoot that many deer and kill them, just think how many an experienced hunter like yourself could kill! Thanks for helping me to clear my point, didn't know that was how people read it.
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#3179077 - 02/28/13 10:18 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1789
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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I agree that everyone's goal should be to never lose an animal, no matter what the weapon, and they should do all in their power to prevent it. Realistically, it does happen however and there has to be some level that a hunter deems to be "acceptable". If you have killed 100 deer and lost one, than that must be an acceptable level to you or else you would not still be a hunter.

Back to the topic of this thread; for a youngster or someone who is very recoil-shy, you have a few choices:
1. Make them use a larger caliber weapon than they are comfortable with because it is more "deadly" and risk them taking a bad shot because they close their eyes before shooting or flinch.
2. Let them use a smaller but legal caliber that they are comfortable shooting and have proven themselves to be proficient with on the range.
3. Don't let them hunt until they are old enough / big enough to shoot a larger caliber.

I think most everyone can agree that choice 1 is not acceptable and while choice 3 is a viable option, it is not a very good one especially if you have daughters who want to hunt as they may never be ready for anything larger than a 22 caliber centerfire or 243. That leaves choice 2, and when my daughter is old enough (she's only 2 right now), proves herself capable on the range of shooting accurately and we use the appropriate bullet design and limit shot selection to broadside heart/lung shots, I would have no problem with her using a 223.

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#3179083 - 02/28/13 10:22 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
BirdDog123
4 Point


Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Tennesssee, US

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I hate losing deer but when I do it just makes me more determined to go to the range and become a better shot.

I would venture to say that someone who burns 1,000rds of .223 at the range would be able to kill a deer more humanely than the guy who keeps his 7mm in the safe until its time to hunt.

Not saying that anyone in the debate does either of those things but its about marksmanship and shot placement not a huge caliber.

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#3179148 - 02/28/13 11:03 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Jcalder]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 768
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Jcalder
Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.


Do you have any hard proof increasing caliber will remove all other variables and increase the shooter's odds? Seems like a mighty big assumption.
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~DRM~

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#3179155 - 02/28/13 11:19 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: -DRM-]
cecil30-30
16 Point


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 14088
Loc: Morgan Co

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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: Jcalder
Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.


Do you have any hard proof increasing caliber will remove all other variables and increase the shooter's odds? Seems like a mighty big assumption.
Or why not stop archery hunting? Your odds of looseing a deer is far greater with archery equipment than it is with a 223..That I guarentee.
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#3179177 - 02/28/13 11:46 AM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: cecil30-30]
Jcalder
6 Point


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 945
Loc: Tennesse

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I'm not trying to argue the point of the caliber. I'm not saying outlaw anything. I have my personal beliefs and certain things I won't do. The point I was trying to make was losing deer under any circumstances should never be ok. We should all strive to make every shot count. I agree that people who shoot more often than the ones who just check scopes generally have more success at shot placement and finding shot deer. I also know that anytime you're hunting something can happen or change at the moment you decide to fire the shot. I'm not trying to argue the point of smaller calibers. But at what point are you ok with losing wounded animals?
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#3179208 - 02/28/13 12:12 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: cecil30-30]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9605
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: cecil30-30
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: Jcalder
Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.


Do you have any hard proof increasing caliber will remove all other variables and increase the shooter's odds? Seems like a mighty big assumption.
Or why not stop archery hunting? Your odds of looseing a deer is far greater with archery equipment than it is with a 223..That I guarentee.


The controlled studies that have been done found exactly the opposite. Gun hunters lost more deer than archery hunters.

As an officer in the field, that is what I found as well. Many gun hunters are so conditioned mentally to seeing an animal drop in their tracks that when one runs off they don't even check to see if they hit or missed the deer. And, with many being hundreds of yards away, it is much more difficult for the hunter to pinpoint where the deer was standing to look for sign of a hit.



Edited by scn (02/28/13 12:16 PM)
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#3179293 - 02/28/13 01:33 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: scn]
climb_higher
4 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 461
Loc: Tennessee

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It's like I said before. Set yourself up for success rather than failure. Practice is key no matter what caliber you want to legally use; however, you won't catch me in the deer woods with a .22 cal.
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#3179301 - 02/28/13 01:44 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: scn]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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In my opinion a deer cartridge at a minimum should be able to give full penetration with a broadside hit. This gives you a better blood trail to follow if required and obviously because blood leaks out 2 holes faster than just 1, the deer dies quicker and more humanely. Yes, bullet design has improved dramatically in the past 20 years so that there are .224 caliber bullets around that can give performance beyond what you would expect from such a small caliber. What bothers me though is the fact that so many hunters don't know enough about bullet design to chose the proper bullet when using these small bores and pushing them to the limits of what they can do. Yes, in the hands of a cool experienced hunter who can really shoot, and is willing to pass up some shots, a .223 Remington loaded with a Nosler Partition bullet can kill deer. However a novice hunter/marginal shooter who goes to his local gun shop and picks up some .223 ammo loaded with a 35grain Hornady VMax bullet is asking for trouble because his bullet is intended for prarie dogs rather than a 150lb animal.

The gun I have in mind for my daughter to use for deer when she starts hunting is my CZ Carbine chambered in 7.62x39. It has negligible recoil and is going to give much more consistent terminal performance on deer sized game than a .224 caliber.


Edited by Hunter 257W (02/28/13 03:30 PM)

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#3179323 - 02/28/13 02:02 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
BirdDog123
4 Point


Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Tennesssee, US

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
What bothers me though is the fact that so many hunters don't know enough about bullet design to chose the proper bullet when using these small bores and pushing them to the limits of what they can do.


^^^ This.

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#3179327 - 02/28/13 02:05 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: scn]
Bayou Buck
10 Point


Registered: 05/11/09
Posts: 2689
Loc: Spring Hill / Perry Co

Offline
 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: cecil30-30
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: Jcalder
Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.


Do you have any hard proof increasing caliber will remove all other variables and increase the shooter's odds? Seems like a mighty big assumption.
Or why not stop archery hunting? Your odds of looseing a deer is far greater with archery equipment than it is with a 223..That I guarentee.


The controlled studies that have been done found exactly the opposite. Gun hunters lost more deer than archery hunters.

As an officer in the field, that is what I found as well. Many gun hunters are so conditioned mentally to seeing an animal drop in their tracks that when one runs off they don't even check to see if they hit or missed the deer. And, with many being hundreds of yards away, it is much more difficult for the hunter to pinpoint where the deer was standing to look for sign of a hit.



I can believe this happens a lot! Especially with less experienced hunters.

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#3179422 - 02/28/13 03:43 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Bayou Buck]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2869
Loc: Franklin County

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 Originally Posted By: Bayou Buck
 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: cecil30-30
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: Jcalder
Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.


Do you have any hard proof increasing caliber will remove all other variables and increase the shooter's odds? Seems like a mighty big assumption.
Or why not stop archery hunting? Your odds of looseing a deer is far greater with archery equipment than it is with a 223..That I guarentee.


The controlled studies that have been done found exactly the opposite. Gun hunters lost more deer than archery hunters.

As an officer in the field, that is what I found as well. Many gun hunters are so conditioned mentally to seeing an animal drop in their tracks that when one runs off they don't even check to see if they hit or missed the deer. And, with many being hundreds of yards away, it is much more difficult for the hunter to pinpoint where the deer was standing to look for sign of a hit.



I can believe this happens a lot! Especially with less experienced hunters.


Yeah, I may have very well left deer in the woods when I 1st started deer hunting now that I can look back with more experienced eyes on my early escapades. I had no adult to learn from and I just assumed that a centerfire rifle with all that noise and energy would drop a deer in it's tracks if you hit it. When I shot and they didn't fall, I assumed that I had missed. (Probably did most of the time because I had a lot of trouble with buck fever as a kid.)

But when looking at lost deer, rather than lumping them all together, I think you have to break them down into two basic categories. The 1st would be deer that killed quickly but simply not found. The hunter shoots, the deer runs a couple hundred yard into a gosh-awful briar thicket - dies within a minute and is never found. Nobody likes losing one like that but at least the animal didn't suffer a lingering death. The 2nd group would be a deer that is hit but the wound is not severe enough to cause quick death which allows it to run far enough that it's never found. This animal may die hours or days later or may even recover.

I bet there are more bow shot deer in that last category.

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#3179525 - 02/28/13 05:29 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: -DRM-]
mathews338
10 Point


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 4948
Loc: jackson co.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: Jcalder
Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.


Do you have any hard proof increasing caliber will remove all other variables and increase the shooter's odds? Seems like a mighty big assumption.
we all know that things don't always go as planned and with that in mind i killed a 4.5 year old 8pt 2 years ago.
i had just climbed down out of the tree and was gathering my things when i heard something coming. i turned around and he had just topped the hill. he was looking right at me standing broadside but there was a cedar bush between me and him. i needed to shoot 1" to the right of the bush in order to still hit vitals.
it was only about 40 yards but i was off handed. i shot through the bush which was 3" in diameter and killed that deer stone dead, complete pass through btw.
that is the only proof i need and like i said before, i hunt hard all year for only a few encounters each year so i want every advantage i can get because i know i'm not perfect and i will make mistakes from time to time.
i believe my .338 or other large calibers do increase a shooters odds. they won't fix everything but they do help. do not limit yourself unless you have to is my way of looking at it.

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#3179718 - 02/28/13 08:29 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: scn]
MRUTVOL
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 882
Loc: Goodlettsville,Tennessee,USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: scn
[quote=cecil30-30][quote=-DRM-][quote=Jcalder]Losing

The controlled studies that have been done found exactly the opposite. Gun hunters lost more deer than archery hunters.

As an officer in the field, that is what I found as well. Many gun hunters are so conditioned mentally to seeing an animal drop in their tracks that when one runs off they don't even check to see if they hit or missed the deer. And, with many being hundreds of yards away, it is much more difficult for the hunter to pinpoint where the deer was standing to look for sign of a hit.



I can believe that since there are more gun hunters than bow hunters so they should have a larger number of lost deer. BUT I would say the percentage of lost deer to the number of hunters for each group ,Gun or Bow, would be higher for Bow Hunters. In my circles anyway I hear more bow hunters who remark of hitting a deer but not finding it which in a lot of cases means a bad hit and probably not a dead deer but a crippled deer. I have heard several hunters speak of multiple loss deer during bow season. One guy I suggested he quit bow hunting because he lost 4 deer in one week of hunting. Just my opinion no studies to back it up.

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#3181678 - 03/02/13 09:13 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: Hunter 257W]
hunter0925
8 Point


Registered: 01/21/13
Posts: 1092
Loc: TN, Rhea,

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
Regarding head shots with any cartridge, I used to agree that they would either be a kill or clean miss but I disagree now. It would be very easy to hit a jaw or nose and leave a deer with a horrible wound to slowly die. I just don't think head shots are a good idea unless the deer is really close and you KNOw you can make it and how do you ever know 100%. A behind the shoulder has a lot more margin for error if you wobble or the deer moves just as you pull the trigger.


My uncle lives and hunts in TX and solely uses a 223 with head shots. He has told me of shooting a 10pt and watching it run off with its' jaw hanging off never to be seen again. I agree with you one hundred persent in this aspect.
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#3212494 - 04/03/13 02:46 PM Re: Anyone using .223 / 5.56 cal for deer hunting? [Re: scn]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27445
Loc: TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: cecil30-30
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: Jcalder
Losing one out of ten deer is unacceptable in my book. Why not increase your odds with a gun that is better suited for deer.


Do you have any hard proof increasing caliber will remove all other variables and increase the shooter's odds? Seems like a mighty big assumption.
Or why not stop archery hunting? Your odds of looseing a deer is far greater with archery equipment than it is with a 223..That I guarentee.


The controlled studies that have been done found exactly the opposite. Gun hunters lost more deer than archery hunters.

As an officer in the field, that is what I found as well. Many gun hunters are so conditioned mentally to seeing an animal drop in their tracks that when one runs off they don't even check to see if they hit or missed the deer. And, with many being hundreds of yards away, it is much more difficult for the hunter to pinpoint where the deer was standing to look for sign of a hit.


Im not surprised at all, I have saw similar situations in the past myself!

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