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#3163853 - 02/14/13 11:55 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 5796
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: John Harris
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
So John, you admit the bill does not protect an employee from being fired. It ONLY covers permit holders (so much for this being a freedom issue), along with half a dozen other problems with the wording...

Why are you not advocating that this bill be pulled on principle alone?


I am trying to persuade legislators and enlist the support of other voters to understand that the bill has serious flaws and should be addressed before they rush to make it law.

On the property rights issue, I wrestled with that myself. I have considered the federal appellate cases which specifically looked at that issue (a case called Ramsey Winch) after the law was passed in Oklahoma about 6 years ago. The federal government found that this is a balancing a rights (real property rights, personal property rights (i.e., the contents of the car), and self-defense/2nd Amendment rights) and that there is not a material or unconstitutional violation of any real property rights or even a "taking" because any infringement is minimal to non-existent. That same opinion was adopted by the Tennessee Attorney General in 2012 when the Senate Judiciary asked for a review of the proposed legislation then.

In addition, the court of appeals noted that real property rights (particularly commercial/business property) are actually heavily regulated with zoning, land use, aesthetics, ADA, and other government infringements.

The court also noted that since most states adopt a civilian carry law at least with the belief or statement that allowing citizens to carry firearms has a proven deterrent effect on generalized and specific crime, that such laws also fall within the state's police powers. Thus, allowing a private property owner to "nullify" a police power of the state was seen as unwarranted under the law just as a property owner could not declare rape or murder laws "void" on their properties.


that is the same response 3 or 4 other have given him, yes, 2nd Amendment rights trump any insignificant "rights"(really desires or preferences) of a business/property owner.

In my opinion -DRM- is confusing a right as defined by the constitution with a preference. There never has been no should there be absolute control of your property.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3163862 - 02/14/13 12:04 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: TNGunsmoke]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 5796
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: TNGunsmoke
I don't know about every employer, but I do know the reasoning where I work for why employees are denied their carry rights. Several years ago, they had a supervisor who had a carry permit, and used the sidearm on his waist to intimidate the guys working under him. He was reprimanded, and policy was then changed to disallow the carry of arms while at work. As far as them being in your parked vehicle on their lot, it is prohibited, but it is don't ask don't tell and as long as their isn't a problem, as far as they are concerned, it isn't there.


That is illegal. Someone should have pressed charges.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3163872 - 02/14/13 12:16 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: woodchuckc]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 768
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
It seems that some are inferring that when your car, with its contents, is parked in your employer's parking lot it ceases to be your property and becomes your employer's.


I'm not aware of anyone who thinks your car becomes the property of your employer when it is on their parking lot.

But some of you seem to think that when you place your property *on* someone else's property, they should be stripped of the ability to tell you to remove your property from ON their property.

I want someone to explain to me why YOU can ask me to not bring a gun into your yard by way of my car, but business property owner cannot do the same thing.

In either case - the real property owner should have the same recourse: Ask you to remove the thing - and yourself - from their property.
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~DRM~

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#3163901 - 02/14/13 12:36 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 768
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: John Harris

Thus, the issue for me is not absolute control over real property which is merely an illusion but the balance between the rights of the real property owner, the personal property (car) owner relative to contents, and the right of self-defense which in my mind has a higher priority to any property right.


Good stuff here, John.

I personally have no illusion that property rights should be absolute. As you stated, in the case of adjoining property, there are certain unavoidable issues where balance needs to be found.
And as I have said - if a real property owner were *forcing* you to be *on* their property (as a neighboring property owner is *forced* by the nature of real property to be adjoined to other real property), then that argument applies.

But nobody is forced to be in the parking lot of FedEx. Nor are they forced to be employed there.

As such, the claim that you need to be allowed to carry a gun on their property is merely a matter of CONVENIENCE, at the expense of someone else's control of their real property.

Claiming that your convenience trumps their property control simply does not hold water, nor is it logical.

Beyond that, I entirely disagree with your position that the right to self defense is of higher importance than the right to property. The right to self defense exists (as an innate right) exists so that you may protect your right to property, property to include your very person. As I have said before - the 2A is not an end, it is a mean to an end. Without the concept that property rights exist (again, including yourself as property), the 2A serves no purpose... i.e. - it ceases to be relevant as there is no use for it. The same can not be said of the inverse.


I'm not some anti-gun nut, or a liberal, or just trying to stir stuff up. I'm about as conservative as they come (admittedly pretty libertarian), have an HCP and carry daily, and would be considered a "gun nut" by the casual observer.

Still, when I apply some common sense to this - not relying on past court cases, I can't ignore the fact that for gun owners to get their way here they must use the government to take away someone else's property rights, merely for their convenience, and not out of need.

If a property owner does not want my gun there, it is *my* responsibility to give them the same respect I would ask of any other man who came on to MY property.
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~DRM~

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#3163920 - 02/14/13 12:58 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 42510
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

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I'm of the opinion, and lets face it DRM, yours is the same, opinion, that it's one right vs another right. Do you agree with this statement? I'm of the belief that the 2nd A guarantees me the right to keep and bear arms, period. Not just here, or there, or sometimes, but not always. So it seems that you're saying that the right of property owners is more important than a 2nd A right in essence, correct? And you see me as saying just the opposite, right?
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MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163923 - 02/14/13 01:03 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
Daff
Spike


Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 57
Loc: TN

Offline
Aside from all this argument about the bill the more important question is...By What authority can my employer search my personal vehicle?
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#3163925 - 02/14/13 01:05 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Daff]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 42510
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
According to some on here, just b/c they want to, b/c you're on their property.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163929 - 02/14/13 01:08 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BlountArrow]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 42510
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: TNGunsmoke
I don't know about every employer, but I do know the reasoning where I work for why employees are denied their carry rights. Several years ago, they had a supervisor who had a carry permit, and used the sidearm on his waist to intimidate the guys working under him. He was reprimanded...


First, he should have been fired for intimidation tactics. Second, might have got the same reaction with a 12" Bowie Knife so let's not blame the gun (not saying you did).

Gentlemen, I'm enjoying the posts and the education. I hope it stays professional.


I'm trying BA, but I'm just an amateur. \:\)
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163942 - 02/14/13 01:25 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Daff]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Nashville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Daff
Aside from all this argument about the bill the more important question is...By What authority can my employer search my personal vehicle?


Normally, the employment contract or handbook - if there is one - will often grant employers the right to search you and your stuff whenever its at work.

Aside from that contractual right, they would ordinarily have to get law enforcement to secure a search warrant based on probable cause to believe a crime has been committed.
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3163963 - 02/14/13 01:55 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2579
Loc: Franklin County

Offline
If an employer can prevent a Concealed Carry Permit holder from carrying a gun to and from work then the permit is virutally worthless. Most of us go to work Mon-Fri and run most errands on the way home from work. That's the majority of the time we would be exposed to the violence that we got the permit for in the 1st place. All this legal crap is just another way of neutering the 2nd Amendment.
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