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#3165906 - 02/16/13 08:30 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12230
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Frank G
 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: Frank G
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.
What would keep people from using the internet to check in doe that don't exist to get another buck tag?

Beekeeper,
You do have a point there. Sure it would no doubt happen, probably by the same few that “poach”. For the most part the vast majority would comply.
I believe it would turn otherwise legal hunters into poachers much like some gun laws turn otherwise legal gun owners into law breakers.
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)




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#3165909 - 02/16/13 08:31 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: ImThere]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12230
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: ImThere
I say leave well enough alone but with that said.......

Lets call a buck a buck if its got balls its a buck!

I shot 4 bucks last year one with 2" antlers and a button among them i thought they were does at the time but i think they should have counted and one antlered buck would have made it another season
You could have stopped at three. Why didn't you?
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)




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#3165913 - 02/16/13 08:35 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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Same thought here BeeKeeper.
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#3165950 - 02/16/13 09:13 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Frank G

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.


Frank G,

I think your comments about Unit L are not accurate when considering the huge area that Unit L covers. Now without question there are probably pockets in Unit L that are "covered up with does." But there are probably far more areas of Unit L where the ratio of males to females is well balanced. In addition, pockets of Unit L exist where deer density is low. However, the state can't manage at a localized pocket level, so they have to provide "rules" that will allow for the problems of unique situations to be adressed. Liberal doe limits can fix the problems of those areas with too many does (if hunters will take advantage of those limits). In areas of low deer density, hunters don't have to shoot any does. It is up to the hunters, not the state, to make sound management decisions. The state simply makes the rules, but we hunters are the true managers of the resource, as we are the ones pulling the trigger or deciding not to pulling the trigger.

The last time I checked, the female versus male harvest ratio in most of Unit L was perfectly adequate to maintain biologically sound adult sex ratios. Most of the area averages a harvest of around 45% female and 55% male. Again, this is biologically adequate.

I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3165997 - 02/16/13 09:39 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: landman
But, do watch...Feeders will be like crossbows one day....

I have have nothing against crossbows and there's enough feeders
out there anyway...


Honestly, I think it will go the opposite direction. I think feeders will eventually be outlawed. Too much data exists showing just how potentially dangerous the artificial feeding of wildlife can be.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3166007 - 02/16/13 09:46 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
[quote=Frank G]
I think your comments about Unit L are not accurate when considering the huge area that Unit L covers. Now without question there are probably pockets in Unit L that are "covered up with does." But there are probably far more areas of Unit L where the ratio of males to females is well balanced. In addition, pockets of Unit L exist where deer density is low. However, the state can't manage at a localized pocket level, so they have to provide "rules" that will allow for the problems of unique situations to be adressed. Liberal doe limits can fix the problems of those areas with too many does (if hunters will take advantage of those limits). In areas of low deer density, hunters don't have to shoot any does. It is up to the hunters, not the state, to make sound management decisions. The state simply makes the rules, but we hunters are the true managers of the resource, as we are the ones pulling the trigger or deciding not to pulling the trigger.

The last time I checked, the female versus male harvest ratio in most of Unit L was perfectly adequate to maintain biologically sound adult sex ratios. Most of the area averages a harvest of around 45% female and 55% male. Again, this is biologically adequate.


I hunt Williamson, Maury, Marshall, and Giles. I see a lot of deer, but I also see a lot of button bucks mixed in with what many would assume are "a bunch of does" at casual observation.

 Quote:
I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.


All I see it doing is taking the guy who is perfectly happy killing his 2-3 bucks per year, and forcing them to kill a matching 2-3 does that he doesn't even want to shoot. Seems like a poor plan.
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~DRM~

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#3166013 - 02/16/13 09:49 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: BSK
And what is also speculative and NOT backed up by data is the idea that if we kill less yearlings, we will then kill more older bucks in following years. When TN went from an 11 buck limit down to a 2 buck limit in 1998, we experienced a HUGE decline in yearling bucks killed that year. As the theory goes, hunters should have then killed many more 2 1/2 year-old bucks the following year (1999). But that didn't happen at all. In fact, there was barely even a blip in increase in 2 1/2 year-old bucks killed the next year. In fact, ever since the decline in buck limit in 1998, hunters have been killing far fewer yearling bucks than they used to. Yet older buck harvests have just slowly increased over time, staying on the slow rate of increase that started long before the reduction in buck limit.



Well it's certainly daylight and dark difference from back than. If you killed a buck with 8 points in the 90's that was a giant. There's obviously more big bucks now than ever in TN but that don't make them dumber. A mature buck will always be hard to kill regardless of the population but at least there is a realistic chance at the opportunity of one these days. If the numbers show they've hardly increased over the years of mature buck killings what to you attribute the higher numbers of big bucks running around these days to?


Don't get me wrong Hollar Hunter. The buck age structure has improved dramatically in TN over the last 15 years. However, my point is that state regulations did not produce this. Changing hunter attitudes and desires did. The growing number of hunters that voluntarily pass up young bucks, as well as hunters' lack of desire to kill more bucks than they currently do is the driving force in this buck age structure improvement. You do realize they only a tiny fraction of hunters kill their limit of 3 bucks? If I remember correctly, it is only a couple of percent of all hunters. Basically, our current buck limit is limiting only a few hunters from harvesting the bucks they want to kill.

There are several ways to "advance" the buck age structure, and one of those ways is to kill less total males than are produced as button bucks each year. And that is exactly what TN hunters have been doing for quite a few years. Our buck harvest totals have stagnated around 80,000 bucks each year statewide. Yet more than 80,000 males are born each year. When you kill less bucks than are produced, more males live another year longer and the age structure advances, and the buck population grows.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3166021 - 02/16/13 09:58 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: -DRM-]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.


All I see it doing is taking the guy who is perfectly happy killing his 2-3 bucks per year, and forcing them to kill a matching 2-3 does that he doesn't even want to shoot. Seems like a poor plan.


-DRM-,

What actually happens is many hunters kill a doe so they can kill a buck, but never end up killing a buck. Hence you end up with a harvest heavily skewed towards females. If the adult sex ratio is already well balanced (and all available data suggest Unit L as a whole has exceptionally balanced sex ratios), you end up decimating the female segment of the population (the fawn producers), and over-all population rapidly declines. In fact, that is the point of EAB rules--they were designed for addressing areas of the country with major deer over-population problems. I don't believe any widespread area of Unit L is currently suffering from serious deer over-population.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3166023 - 02/16/13 10:00 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Frank G

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.


Frank G,
Thanks for the update BSK,
For the most part I hunt the southern counties of unit L so your follow up to my “earn a buck” thoughts have changed my views. Was not aware that for the most part the unit is biologically in balance. Granted the state can’t manage “pocket” areas. We take a number of doe at our club; donate to hunt for hungry and friends that don’t/can’t hunt etc. Although not written, verbally we agree “6” or less let him pass. Thanks for the local biology lesson.


I think your comments about Unit L are not accurate when considering the huge area that Unit L covers. Now without question there are probably pockets in Unit L that are "covered up with does." But there are probably far more areas of Unit L where the ratio of males to females is well balanced. In addition, pockets of Unit L exist where deer density is low. However, the state can't manage at a localized pocket level, so they have to provide "rules" that will allow for the problems of unique situations to be adressed. Liberal doe limits can fix the problems of those areas with too many does (if hunters will take advantage of those limits). In areas of low deer density, hunters don't have to shoot any does. It is up to the hunters, not the state, to make sound management decisions. The state simply makes the rules, but we hunters are the true managers of the resource, as we are the ones pulling the trigger or deciding not to pulling the trigger.

The last time I checked, the female versus male harvest ratio in most of Unit L was perfectly adequate to maintain biologically sound adult sex ratios. Most of the area averages a harvest of around 45% female and 55% male. Again, this is biologically adequate.

I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.
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Team M.I.A.
Captain

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#3166028 - 02/16/13 10:08 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12090
Loc: Benton Co.

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BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks. IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.
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Proverbs 3:27 Whenever you possibly can, do good to those who need it

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